Overheating Black Lab

[gus004]

I need some advice. I have a 10 month old Black lab that is at a local trainer right now. I enrolled her in a gun dog program for obedience/bird/gun training. I am allowed to go and participate whenever I have time and have many times. The trainer called the other day and told me that my lab is overheating quickly and fails to hunt or retrieve for him after 15 minutes. He claims she is overheating and not conditioned. It has been very warm here recently with highs in the upper 80's and low 90's. Thankfully it is cooling off for this week. He only works the dogs for 20-30 minutes per session. I have seen him work with other dogs that don't seem to have this trouble. She shows great interest in the birds until she tires out. She is an outside dog at home and is being kept in air conditioned kennels while there. I am looking for any info that you could share if any of you have experienced this before. Hopefully it is just the heat of summer that has her in this condition. Thanks in advance.

[Hotpepper]

If the trainer I was using was training my dog at those temperatues, I would go get the dog and bring him home and or find some other place to train the dog.

Do you understand that every pro that I know and is training or conditioning at this time of year is up at 4am and doing what they can and at 10am is sitting in the shade somewhere.

Do that enough times, train in 90's temperatures, will have a dead dog.

Pepper

[gonehuntin']

If the trainer I was using was training my dog at those temperatues, I would go get the dog and bring him home and or find some other place to train the dog.

Do you understand that every pro that I know and is training or conditioning at this time of year is up at 4am and doing what they can and at 10am is sitting in the shade somewhere.

Do that enough times, train in 90's temperatures, will have a dead dog.

Pepper

You're totally wrong about that pepper; he has a lab. A trainier simply works lab's in water when it's hot. If you only trained between 4 and 10 you wouldn't get many dog's trained. With a lab, you simple run all tests near water. Even if you're working land, water should be there for a cool swim. I trained in the Escalon Valley in CA. where temp's hit 115 and in Idaho all summer and never missed a day. Pointing dog's are different but we still did the same thing. Obedience, field work, into the pond.

If your dog has overheated before, he'll overheat again easier. Sometimes irreparable damage is done to them. If the trainer is reputable, there is probably a physical problem with the dog.

[gus004]

Yes he does let them cool off in the water after working them. The temps when he is working them is usually in the 60's in the morning and cooling off in the evening, but still warm. That is why he only does short sessions. I am not looking to criticize the trainer, but more for any info you might have with dogs that overheat easily. I don't want to take her out this fall and have to worry every time the temps are above normal. This is my first hunting dog that I have owned. I have many relatives and friends that I hunt with that have many dogs. That includes both parents of this one that a relative owns. Both parents come from field trial bloodlines with no health issues. Thanks for the input.

One question this brings up is what do you do with your dogs this time of year if that is when you have to train them for the fall. If you can't work with them for two to three months, what do you do? I would be interested to hear from you.

[Hotpepper]

Let me tell you about the dogs that I know have died in the truck from being worked in 90 dergree water.

It happens all the time. Just what I have seen.

Pepper

[gonehuntin']

Might happen with the pointing breeds, doesn't happen with retrievers. I've trained retrievers and bird dog's for 40 years, quite a portion of that time professionally, and have yet to EVER see a retriever die in a pro's truck of overheating. Now, I'm sure at some point in time that's happened, but I've certainly never seen it and I've trained and trialed them in some of the hottest places there are. If you have ever seen a lab die from overheating on a pro's truck, you have seen a very poor and incompetent pro.

[bobman]

I personally used to swim for 60 minutes non stop every day and if I climbed out immediately (rather than just stay in the water after the swim for awhile to cool off) I would be hot as heck.

Water will only cool you off if you stay in it without working, same with dogs.

My point is a couple retrieves is not going to cool off a over heated dog because the dog is still generating body heat while swimming, the dog needs to be allowed to loaf in the water long enough to cool off.

[ezzy333]

You're totally wrong about that pepper

Would it work just as well if this statement started with IMO or mybe "I disagree".

Might happen with the pointing breeds, doesn't happen with retrievers. I've trained retrievers and bird dog's for 40 years, quite a portion of that time professionally, and have yet to EVER see a retriever die in a pro's truck of overheating. Now, I'm sure at some point in time that's happened, but I've certainly never seen it and I've trained and trialed them in some of the hottest places there are. If you have ever seen a lab die from overheating on a pro's truck, you have seen a very poor and incompetent pro.

This in answer to a post that someone has seen it happen several times. It says that you have never seen it happen and then you say it probably has happened but when it did it was the trainers fault. This maybe right but it would be impossible to know whose fault since no one knows why it happened.

It is troubling when statements are made as absolute fact instead of IMO, as far as I know, or I had never heard that. These would all be acceptible statements in an open discussion. Hard statements that say you are wrong and I am right get us no place and do nothing but lower the opinion people have of the poster.

These two posts happen to be Gonehuntin's. But I am not trying to single him out as there are several on here that continue to set themselves up as the authority that shouldn't be questioned. We all can learn from others experiences as well as share ours.

Lets all work at being more tolerant and polite in our conversations. In dog training there is no set right or wrong, no one person smarter than all the rest, and no one breed of dog better than the others. We all win when we learn from others experiences so there is no reason to tell others their experiences are all wrong and shouldn't be allowed to stand.

Many times it is not what we say but how we say it. That is so very true with the posts on this board including the ones used as examples. Lets all try to do better and get back to listening and learning fron everyone and being tolerant of everyones views and desires of what they want in their dog world.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

This in answer to a post that someone has seen it happen several times. It says that you have never seen it happen and then you say it probably has happened but when it did it was the trainers fault. This maybe right but it would be impossible to know whose fault since no one knows why it happened.

Ezzy, you have to realize how incredibly rare and unusual it would have to be for this to happen. Lab's are not worked hard like pointing dogs which may run flat out for 30" in training. A lab runs a blind or 2-3 marks and is put back in the truck. There is no way for them to overheat becacuse they are not doing that much work. Add to this fact that they're usually close to water, live in insulated trucks, or as this poster said in an air conditioned kennel, and I'm sure you can see what makes me so skeptical. Is it possible to see one dog die of heat exaustion? I never have, but it's an incredibly rare possibility. To see more than one die? Unbelievable. That poster didn't state whether he had seen labs or pointers die. It is just so difficult to think a lab could. How about your own experiences Ezzy, have you ever seen a retriever or even ever hear of a retriever dieing while training in a truck?

It is troubling when statements are made as absolute fact instead of IMO, as far as I know, or I had never heard that. These would all be acceptible statements in an open discussion. Hard statements that say you are wrong and I am right get us no place and do nothing but lower the opinion people have of the poster. .

Those are statements made by an old man that's worked dogs all of his life, professionally and now as an amature. I carried 16 dogs in a truck and six in a trailer, trained with many other trainers with 20 dogs, and never in a lifetime heard of a single training incident like this.

Lets all work at being more tolerant and polite in our conversations. In dog training there is no set right or wrong, no one person smarter than all the rest, and no one breed of dog better than the others. We all win when we learn from others experiences so there is no reason to tell others their experiences are all wrong and shouldn't be allowed to stand..

There may be not set right and no set wrong is dog training, though I'd surely debate that, but there are people with more experience than others. One of the things that set me off on that post was the individual stating " If the trainer I was using was training my dog at those temperatues, I would go get the dog and bring him home and or find some other place to train the dog.

Do you understand that every pro that I know and is training or conditioning at this time of year is up at 4am and doing what they can and at 10am is sitting in the shade somewhere.
Do that enough times, train in 90's temperatures, will have a dead dog.
Pepper .

The problem with that becomes that the poster is saying you can't train a dog in hot weather and if you do, it'll die. That is simply not the truth. I never missed a day of training in Ca, Az, Utah, Nevada, Id. Wy. or Mt. because of the heat and none of the pro's I knew ever did either. Now the poster is highly criticizing a professional trainer by stating things that are not true. I'll challenge that each and every time.

Many times it is not what we say but how we say it. That is so very true with the posts on this board including the ones used as examples. Lets all try to do better and get back to listening and learning fron everyone and being tolerant of everyones views and desires of what they want in their dog world.Ezzy

Amen to that Ezzy, very nicely put. I would also add that let's try to only publish information on here we know to be true. Bad information is worse than no information at all.

[Texrab]

There is an article in the Aug. issue of Gun Dog by James Spencer about one of his golden retrievers that died in the dog box on the way back from the vet. He got stopped by a long train and when he got home the dog was passed out. He did not make it back to the vet quick enough. I never really thought of it happening like that.

[gonehuntin']

There is an article in the Aug. issue of Gun Dog by James Spencer about one of his golden retrievers that died in the dog box on the way back from the vet. He got stopped by a long train and when he got home the dog was passed out. He did not make it back to the vet quick enough. I never really thought of it happening like that.

Just got my Gundog today and haven't read it. If he was in the back of a pickup truck w-o ventilation, it's the same as suffocation in a car with windows up. Was the dog all ready sick further stressing him? Again, were talking different things here. A pro truck has fans, ventilated compartments, louvers, etc. In very hot weather (90+) we used to put a block of ice in each kennel so it cooled the truck and they could lick it.

Dog's do die of overheating with private owners often. I believe it was 2-3 years ago 110 dogs died in SD on opening weekend. Overheating, especially when running in a field is a serious problem. We used to have a 55 gallon drum cut in half on a trailer we could dunk dogs in before they ran. Worked great. If you carry your dog in the back of a pu truck you should have a temp. monitor that broadcasts temps to the cap, fans on each crate, and check the dog's often. I like open wire kennels so I can see them all the time.

[ezzy333]

Gone huntin'

No one is questionong you about anything. Facts are you haven't seen a dog die of overheating. Facts are some of us have. Facts are that a trainer told Gus that his dog was over heating. Fact is that Pepper said if a trainer was training his dog in the extremely hot temps he would go get his dog. Fact is that Pepper said every trainer he knows is training in the early morning and then quitting in the heat of the day. At this point you thought it necessary to tell Pepper that is wrong and you explained how you trained. in the heat. If you did that is fine but don't tell Pepper he is wrong when he relayed what he knew and what he would do in these circumstances.

Pepper offers to tell you about the dogs that have died that he knows about. Thenyou explain in over 40 years you have never seen a retriever die from overheating. Thats good and not a problem that I can see. Pepper has and you haven't. Thats the way things happen. But you didn't need to say that if a dog dies in a pro's truck it is an incompetent trainer. Might be or might not but for lack of knowledge it shouldn't be stated as fact in an accusitory manner.

At this point I wrote a post about the tone of many posts lately and used two of yours as an example. You answered in a reasonable manner but I question if you really got what I was saying.

Those are statements made by an old man that's worked dogs all of his life, professionally and now as an amature. I carried 16 dogs in a truck and six in a trailer, trained with many other trainers with 20 dogs, and never in a lifetime heard of a single training incident like this.

I think you are offering this as an excuse when you say those statements were made by an old man thats worked with dogs all of his life but you need to realize they are being made to some old men who have worked with dogs all of their lives and also some not so old but very experienced. Tell us what you know and let the rest of us do the same without being told we don't know what we are talking about. I agree there are times when something needs correcting but how do we correct someone for posting what they have seen or experienced and what they would do in a certain circumstance.

Thats all we ask is be civil and listen to what your peers have to say. I don't believe they are lying to us any more than you are. We can't continue to call everyone else wrong when they post their experiences and we won't let them call you wrong when you post yours. We may have different methods of doing things and these can be debated but each and everyone of us have the right to post out thoughts without being personally belittled.

Again I will say this applies to all of us and there are too many examples of people feeling superior to someone else or feeling their opinions are better than someone elses. We all have our strong points and also our weak points so lets share without the negativity we see so often.

Ezzy

[gus004]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I would like to just close this post and end a squabble that is starting. I have opened up a new topic on when to start training that continues on with my pup. I have chosen to let the trainer finish the obedience with her and some frozen bird retrieval as he has done a great job with her. I will have to pick up from there once the weather cools down some. In that thread I am looking for tips on how to pick up where he left off and when would be the appropriate time. Weather can still be in the 80's in October here once hunting rolls around (Still remember when it used to snow the beginning of October). Post replies there please.

[ezzy333]

Sorry we hijacked your thread. There were just some things that needed to be said and hopefully it is cleared up now. Hope you get the answers you need.

Ezzy

[John G]

Sorry, I couldn't let this one go. Dogs that have overheated in the past are more likely to overheat in the future.

Your dog may suffer from a condition known as EIC which is exercise induced collapse. I hope this is not the case as there is no known cure.

High heat and humidity could easily lead to a healthy dog getting overheated even if it's in shape. Time of day, amount of sun, humidity, amount of cover, temp. of water all play out.

Some dogs just have different internal thermostats. They just get hotter quicker.

I have known of more than a few labs that have died from overheating, many from overheating while or after swimming. The humidity in some areas is much higher which reduces a dogs ability to cool down. Water temps can also feel like bath water in some areas.n A dog does not cool down when even just "wallowing" in these conditions.

I have known several dogs to die from being put away wet in a well insulated and well ventilated dog box. If there is no breezed or fan the heat that radiates from a wet dog can become lethal in a very short amount of time.

A black dog on a sunny day will "soak up" a lot of heat from the sun.

Always play it on the safe side and if training where/when overheating may be an issue always have ice and cold water to apply to the dog especially on the underside or even immerse the dog in and keep the air flowing!


Good Luck with your pup

John

[gus004]

I am not sure on whether it is EIC. I have researched it extensively on the web and she has never collapsed or looked like she was going to. She has not shown signs that she looked dizzy or losing the control of her rear end. The trainer has been real quick to stop activity once she looks to be getting tired/hot and put her away to cool down. She is usually ready to go in about 15 minutes or so if he chooses to bring her back out, which he has done only a couple times.
I was wondering if the A/C Kennel area could have something to do with this. She is a very smart dog and maybe she is just telling him to put her away or maybe she is just spoiled. LOL. I am assuming that he lets the dog acclimate to the conditions before bringing her out of the outdoor kennel run. I maybe wrong though. I will have to ask him that tonight when I go up there. He works her obedience first then on to the birds as a reward at this point.
I am doubting that it is EIC at this point, but am watching it closely from here on out.
Thanks for the reply.

[mtlee]

I took my Shorthair for a 2 mile Jog/Walk yesterday as I have been doing almost daily for a while now. It was around 5:30pm and temp was probably in the low 90s, humidity was miserably high (like it is here EVERY day). She came inside afterwards and collapsed on the cool linoleum and laid there for about 30 minutes. My roomate walked by, who she usually is all over, and she just picked her head up looked and plopped it back down. It kind of worried me, but as soon as I picked her food bowl up she jumped up. I don't know why she got so hot yesterday. She is used to that type of exercise, she's been doing it 5 days a week since May.

Anyway, just thought the story related....hope everything goes well with your dog!

[slistoe]

ezzy, I understand you are trying to "clean up" a percieved problem, but you are attacking the wrong places IMO.

"Do that enough times, train in 90's temperatures, will have a dead dog." Is a definitive statement that is WRONG. Gonehuntin' provides clear cut evidence that the statement is indeed wrong and is deleterious to a good many competent pro trainers and you spend an essay chastising him.

[slistoe]

I would suggest that if the trainer has a number of dogs he is working and he is seeing that this one dog is having a problem with overheating to the extent he has singled out it is a problem, then the dog has a problem. If the trainer had a problem he would have a kennel full of overheating dogs.

As Gonehuntin' has pointed out, once a dog has been overheated they will have a lowered heat tolerance. This could be a factor with this dog. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, the dog will carry this the rest of its life. It could also be that the dog just has a naturally lower heat tolerance which also means it is something it will have to deal with the rest of its life. It could be the dog has EIC, a very real problem in many dogs. An astute trainer is seeing early evidence of tiring/heating and is stopping the dog before actual collapse occurs. The other issue is that the dog may not be in prime physical condition therefore is working harder and building more body heat than the other dogs in the program. It could be that the dog has less tolerance for working through fatigue - has very little "bottom" and is not actually heating to the point it would endanger the dog. Then there is the coat factor. Does the dog have an unusually heavy and oily coat?

Whatever the problem your dog has, the best bet you have to work it out is to work together with the pro who is seeing the problem hands on and try to come up with a cause/cure/management strategy to make this little dog the most productive it can be.

[ezzy333]

Slistoe,

I would suggest that if the trainer has a number of dogs he is working and he is seeing that this one dog is having a problem with overheating to the extent he has singled out it is a problem, then the dog has a problem. If the trainer had a problem he would have a kennel full of overheating dogs.

At no point did I see anything saying the trainer had a problem. I did see a comment that if a trainer was training my dog in those temps I would go get the dog. That sounds like a statement that imparts how some one feels and nothing more.

ezzy, I understand you are trying to "clean up" a percieved problem, but you are attacking the wrong places IMO.

"Do that enough times, train in 90's temperatures, will have a dead dog." Is a definitive statement that is WRONG. Gonehuntin' provides clear cut evidence that the statement is indeed wrong and is deleterious to a good many competent pro trainers and you spend an essay chastising him.

Believe it or not I don't think I was attacking anyone. And I wasn't chastising Gone huntin" anymore than I was you. I made it clear I thought that I am concerned about the tone of the posts and not what was being said. However I may be wrong because when someone can make a definite statement that training in 90 degree heat will not effect a dog or can even cause death, then I can see what you are talking about. I have seen dogs die from heat exposure and many others have too, and because of that most people are very careful about doing much with the dogs when it gets that hot. However if you want to say in your experience it hasn't been a problem then I don't have a problem either, because at that point, you are relaying your experience and not calling someone elses experience WRONG.

Tell us what you think and don't tell us someone else is wrong, instead of just saying you disagree and we can get on with our discussions in the manner that we have on this board since it's beginning. Start bashing other people's experiences and you will have to take those posts to another board where they are tolerated. We are family here that are continuely looking to adopt new posters. It has worked well up to this point and I feel confident it will continue.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

OK ezzy, you've convinced me. Anyone one who trains in temps above 90 degrees will kill their dog. Sorry to have disagreed with a member of the family.

[Billy Ray]

Sorry to have disagreed with a member of the family.

Tough to argue with that. At least you said in a nice "tone."

[gus004]

Went out and trained with pup and trainer yesterday. She is doing wonderful with her obedience. She has mastered heel, sit to whistle, come, come to whistle, and even sit to whistle on comeback/retrieve. With the cooler weather, her endurance has increased as well. I will just have to watch her this fall. She still is not up to what other blacks there are doing, but they are older and stockier builds than mine. I plan to re-visit the trainer this September before hunting for some refreshing and more live bird work. I will also be working with her all along once she comes home. Really miss having her at home for the past three weeks. Thanks for the replies.

[Terry]

I always train mine close to a water trough...let them work for 10 minutes then sit in the water trough for 3-4...then another 10...Etc.
Seems to work pretty well. I'll have to post of pic of them..."cooling down".

[snips]

Your dog may have Laryangeal Paralisys. (sp) It sounds like classis symptoms if the other dogs are handling the heat fine. Do you hear a rasping or roaring sound when the dog gets very hot? or ask the trainer if he did.... I have seen it in Setters ALOT. I Even know the bloodlines its in. I have done as your trainer and sent dogs home that were overheating in 10 minutes, but in biddogs they are running hard, and in 10 minutes if they do not get in water they sound like they will die. They will never make a birddog if they have a severe case of LP. The birddog world is unaware of the severity of this problem anD continues to breed effected animals not knowing it is a genetic problem. I would have your vet check your dog for this problem, if your vet has not heard of it, go to a University or another vet. You can look it up on Internet, it tells all about it. Not much you can do IMP, surgery IMO would and does cause too much scar tissue and can create the same effecct.

[Ruffshooter]

I may have missed something but: How often to is the dog conditioned? Not trained but run and swimming? No matter what the tempatures if a dog is pushed beyond its physical limitations it can keel over. It doesn't take long when they are out of shape, meaning not in Athletic shape. If it is in Athletic shape and it is bordering on heat exhaustion or stroke, then I would look for a physical abnormality as has been suggested previously.

As a side not for folks that have un insulated or even insulated boxes, always vent them. There is a product that is sold as a roof coating. It is called Astec Sold out of Iness FLA (ICC coatings) It is an acrylic polymer that has ceramic particles in it. You would not believe how it drops the surface temprature and in turn the internal temp. You can roll it or spray it. It is much better than just white paint. I used to apply it to metal roofs. I will be putting it on the new dog box I am building now.