Rattlesnake Question

Liz A · Post by **Liz A** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:10 pm

I lost my Vizsla on the opening day of dove season last year to a rattlesnake bite in the chest. I got a new pup that's about 9 months old, and she's been thru "snake proofing" and had the rattlesnake vaccine. I'm still paranoid though, and I was wondering if anyone has encountered a snake after snakeproofing, or if you've had one bit after receiving the vaccine.

The area we hunt is snakey, so I'm trying to find out how effective these are. Also, does anyone know if they make any kind of snake proof vest for a dog? It seems that bites to the face and legs aren't usually fatal, but chest bites can be. I sure don't want to lose another good dog to a snake. Thanks!

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:31 am

I am not being sarcastic but would recommend you dont take a dog to snakey places when its hot in early season even with the vaccine.

I used to live in TX so I know thats not easy but I would leave my dog at home and get my own doves when I lived there.

I bet you could make a snake proof vest out of a pair of snake chaps.

A bite to the leg could mean a crippled dog they lose alot of flesh and tendon damage is likely.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:07 am

Shooter had been snakeproofed before he was bitten. It doesn't do any good if the dog doesn't see the snake in time to react.

I understand that legs are one of the worst places to get bitten as they are so vascular that the venom is able to travel more quickly through the body as compared to a bite to the face. The chest or neck is definitely very bad.

My dogs haven't gotten the vaccine, so I have no experience with it. I understand that its effectiveness against the snakes we'd see in Florida is pretty limited, although I do want to get it done anyway.

Building on bobman's suggestion, you could take a brush vest and sew snake chap material onto the outside of it. Some of the ones I've seen in Dogs Unlimited are already reinforced with Cordura nylon, so you might not even need to sew anything additional onto them.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:25 am

I live in West Texas where we see a lot of snakes. I usually kill about 20 rattlers ever opening weekend for dove. This is why I do not carry my dog out till the weather cools off a little. I had a GSP years ago running back with a bird and never saw or smelled the snake. She got bit right in the face. She was ok after some antibotics and some rest but she swelled up pretty bad and would not eat.

One thing to consider is even with a vest your dog could over heat very quickly in the Texas sun. So keep that in mind if you decide to go that route. In my lifetime I have owned about 20 dogs from bird dogs to cow dogs. I have had three dogs get hit and lived with no vaccine or snake proofing class. I guess it is something they just get used to on the ranch. good luck

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:16 pm

google snake bite kits. there only like 13 bucks. The whole soncept is a little serennge type thing that sucks the venom out of the wound and it buys you alot more time.

Billy Ray · Post by **Billy Ray** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:13 pm

bean1031 wrote:google snake bite kits. there only like 13 bucks. The whole soncept is a little serennge type thing that sucks the venom out of the wound and it buys you alot more time.

Actually, no they don't.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:28 pm

Both of my dogs have had the vaccine as backup-insurance but nothing more. I've heard that it helps.

I still wouldn't take them dove hunting in a snakey area no matter what. Not sure I'd go myself.

Best, Greg J.

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:35 pm

i dont even start hunting my dogs until the end of November. i hunt in west texas

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:50 pm

http://www.wisementrading.com/firstaid/snake_bite.htm look at this link

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:08 pm

One problem with that bean. By the time you get to the dog and use it on him, the venom will probably already be in the blood stream. If I were in country where I might incounter a lot of snakes, I'd snake break, period. I don't have much of a problem with them here because they are usually down durning hunting season. I don't even hardly ever find them when training. I think I've killed four total while training. Several more while fishing in the summer.

The problem with the dog being bit would seem to be if the dog points one close or smells one and roads in on it. I would wonder if a snake could really get a dog that went by at a fast clip. I don't know the fasination of dogs with snakes but mine always like them. pointed lots of garden snakes and bull snakes. One rattler, a small one.

tyleetess · Post by **tyleetess** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:02 am

I got 3 of my dogs through the snake avoidence class this year. They had a hard time with it and I don't know how well it took. It seemed some dogs took to it better than others, such as the dogs that were there from the search and rescue or joggers that hadn't seen much of the e-collar.

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:57 am

Don wrote: I would wonder if a snake could really get a dog that went by at a fast clip.

Don one of my dogs got hit running back with a bird. She was returning with the wind and never smelled or saw it. Thankfully she made it through it.

First thing I would suggest. Don't hunt your dogs in september in Texas. I will usually take them out depending on the weather in october. It really all depends on the weather. If you do decide to take your dog out I would suggest that you know where the closest vet office is and emergency clinic with phone numbers so you can call ahead. I have a laminated card I keep with me to all the closest vets where I hunt. This came in handy when Freckles got bit in the face.

Liz A · Post by **Liz A** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:08 pm

Thanks for all the information. I had only lived in Tx for two weeks when I lost my dog, and hadn't even thought about rattlesnakes. After reading everyone's posts, I won't be taking my dogs dove huning. Between the heartache and the vet bill, it just isn't worth it.

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:26 pm

I have lived in the Uvalde/Medina County area for the past 12 years and hunted several years before that.

Every time I see where someone sya they wait til it gets cooler before hunting , or taking thier dog or whatever, I just dont know what to think.

What I have found out id when it is hot, the snakes tend to stay holed up where it is a bit cooler. After the first couple of northers is when they really start moving and being seen.

I have a good friend that ran a bowhunting ranch for years that I helped out on and we also partenered on one just out of Sabinal. We killed more rattlers from Oct thru April than I can count. From June thru Sept, I can only remember killing one in 15 years.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:46 pm

I've now seen five dogs that were bitten after being vaccinated. I've talked to several vets that have treated another 25 or so.

In general here's what I'd tell you.

If a dog is bitten that get's vaccinated every six months you will see roughly a 90% reduction in the inital pain/swelling/hemolysis and respiratory complications. Long term you will see minimal damage from the necrosis and infection.

A dog needs roughly sixty days to build full immunity after the first innoculation and if you are in an area where snake encounters are common like I do, vaccinating every six months is not a bad idea at all. If you are only likely to encounter them on one or two out of state trips a year, then vaccinating once a year at least sixty days prior to the planned trip would probably do you just fine.

Snake breaking done right will cure about 90% of dogs from every intentionally going after a snake. However just like our dogs no matter how good they are occasionally bump a bird they couldn't smell dogs that have been successfully "snake proofed" will occasionaly come upon one they can't see, smell, or hear.

There are roughly five to ten percent of dogs for which no amount of snake breaking can deter them from going after them when they know the snakes are about.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:01 am

zachsdad wrote:I have lived in the Uvalde/Medina County area for the past 12 years and hunted several years before that.

Every time I see where someone sya they wait til it gets cooler before hunting , or taking thier dog or whatever, I just dont know what to think.

What I have found out id when it is hot, the snakes tend to stay holed up where it is a bit cooler. After the first couple of northers is when they really start moving and being seen.

I have a good friend that ran a bowhunting ranch for years that I helped out on and we also partenered on one just out of Sabinal. We killed more rattlers from Oct thru April than I can count. From June thru Sept, I can only remember killing one in 15 years.

Not challenging this but I have to ask , did you spend equal amounts of time in the field during those time periods?

June thru sept in tx is a good time to be in a pool or airconditioning, I was a distance runner when I lived there ran 5-10 miles almost everymorning and saw far more snakes in the summer, of course I ran at daybreak and had to be careful because they would lay on the edge of roads.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:38 am

WildRose wrote: I've now seen five dogs that were bitten after being vaccinated. I've talked to several vets that have treated another 25 or so.

In general here's what I'd tell you.

If a dog is bitten that get's vaccinated every six months you will see roughly a 90% reduction in the inital pain/swelling/hemolysis and respiratory complications. Long term you will see minimal damage from the necrosis and infection.

Has your experience mainly been with Western diamondback bites? The vaccine was developed primarily for that snake, although there is some cross-protection for other rattlesnakes. I'm curious how the results vary between different rattlesnakes.

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:06 pm

I've seen a vaccinated dog that was bit by a prairie rattler. The owner swore it wasn't a snakebite since there was so little swelling. It was bit just above the front foot and there was swelling about two inches above and below the bite. He'd had dogs snakebit that were not vaccinated and this was the first one that was vaccinated that was bit. Two days later he told me he could clearly see the two fang marks after the swelling went down.

Now, here's the clincher to the story. It was 42 degrees when the dog was bit. The HIGH for previous week was no higher than 15 degrees with a few days topping at six degrees. This was SW Kansas. Yes, this bite was an oddity but, in short, your dog can be bit at any time in snake country.

gr_elliott · Post by **gr_elliott** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:30 pm

You have to pay to play…

Unfortunately we all take the chance of being bitten by a snake every time we are in the field. I have a couple of buddies that had dogs get struck even after going through the snake breaking training. If the dog can’t see, hear or smell the snake then there is nothing it or you can do to prevent the bite.

Only thing we can do as responsible owners is trying not to set a dog up for a bite. In warmer weather either leave the dog at home or know your closest vet just in case the worse does happen. I try not to worry to much about snakes, all I can do is try and use my head when in snakey areas…and yes my dog has been through the snake breaking and has the shots as extra insurance

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:01 pm

phermes1 wrote:
WildRose wrote: I've now seen five dogs that were bitten after being vaccinated. I've talked to several vets that have treated another 25 or so.

In general here's what I'd tell you.

If a dog is bitten that get's vaccinated every six months you will see roughly a 90% reduction in the inital pain/swelling/hemolysis and respiratory complications. Long term you will see minimal damage from the necrosis and infection.
Has your experience mainly been with Western diamondback bites? The vaccine was developed primarily for that snake, although there is some cross-protection for other rattlesnakes. I'm curious how the results vary between different rattlesnakes.

I've treated bites from western Diamond back, massasauga, and mexican black tailed rattlesnakes for sure, and probably two of them were "prairie rattlers". The vets I've talked to in the Dakotas that have seen vaccinated dogs bitten up there report good results as well. I have yet to see a vacciated dog bitten that didn't heal up with far less damage and far more quickly than an unvaccinated dog.

Really the venom for most of the rattlesnakes is very similar so cross species protection is expected. However the Mojave Green which can be found in the Southwest, mainly AZ, NV, CA also has a neurotoxin in it's venom that is very powerful. The vaccine won't help with the neurotixic effects.

When dealing with a snake bite whenever possible it's best to bring the offending snake in for proper identification if you can possibly do so without risking injury to yourself. The head and tail both need to be in tact for proper ID purposes. CR

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:09 pm

zachsdad wrote:I have lived in the Uvalde/Medina County area for the past 12 years and hunted several years before that.

Every time I see where someone sya they wait til it gets cooler before hunting , or taking thier dog or whatever, I just dont know what to think.

What I have found out id when it is hot, the snakes tend to stay holed up where it is a bit cooler. After the first couple of northers is when they really start moving and being seen.

I have a good friend that ran a bowhunting ranch for years that I helped out on and we also partenered on one just out of Sabinal. We killed more rattlers from Oct thru April than I can count. From June thru Sept, I can only remember killing one in 15 years.

Actually Zac's dad is pretty much right on.

Rattlesnakes are most active between about sixty and eighty five degrees. Being cold blooded their body temperature is usually very close to the outdoor temperature. On cool days they will lay in a sunny spot out of the wind so they can "solar heat" to warm up enough to hunt. On hot sunny days they will stay in the shade as much as possible being most active late in the evening starting about dusk and remain active until shortly after full sun up.

If you are out and about in the heat of the day consequently you won't see many but during "snake season" around here there are so many active early and late that it's just not worth trying to work dogs.

On hot days about the only real work we could get done with dogs around here would be to try and road them in the middle of the day and heat stroke/heat exhaustion is just too much of a possibility to make it worthwhile.

CR

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:12 pm

WildRose wrote:
zachsdad wrote:I have lived in the Uvalde/Medina County area for the past 12 years and hunted several years before that.

Every time I see where someone sya they wait til it gets cooler before hunting , or taking thier dog or whatever, I just dont know what to think.

What I have found out id when it is hot, the snakes tend to stay holed up where it is a bit cooler. After the first couple of northers is when they really start moving and being seen.

I have a good friend that ran a bowhunting ranch for years that I helped out on and we also partenered on one just out of Sabinal. We killed more rattlers from Oct thru April than I can count. From June thru Sept, I can only remember killing one in 15 years.
Actually Zac's dad is pretty much right on.

Rattlesnakes are most active between about sixty five and ninety degrees. Being cold blooded their body temperature is usually very close to the outdoor temperature. On cool days they will lay in a sunny spot out of the wind so they can "solar heat" to warm up enough to hunt. On hot sunny days they will stay in the shade as much as possible being most active late in the evening starting about dusk and remain active until shortly after full sun up.

The reason you have more encounters with them in the early fall is because they are beginning to move back closer to their winter time dens. Typically unless it's destroyed a snake will always go back to the same den to spend the winter. They are also it seems much more aggressive and prone to bite in the early fall as well and when you find one you are very much likely to find several more within a relatively small area.

They also tend to come up and sun and try to grab a bite to eat anytime we get more than two or three days in a row with highs above sixty degrees.

If you are out and about in the heat of the day consequently you won't see many but during "snake season" around here there are so many active early and late that it's just not worth trying to work dogs.

On hot days about the only real work we could get done with dogs around here would be to try and road them in the middle of the day and heat stroke/heat exhaustion is just too much of a possibility to make it worthwhile.

CR

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:00 pm

bobman wrote: Not challenging this but I have to ask , did you spend equal amounts of time in the field during those time periods?

June thru sept in tx is a good time to be in a pool or airconditioning, I was a distance runner when I lived there ran 5-10 miles almost everymorning and saw far more snakes in the summer, of course I ran at daybreak and had to be careful because they would lay on the edge of roads.

I was running deer hunts, hog hunts and dove hunts. I was in the field all hours of the day almost daily, year around. I ran a 17 mile corn run from September thru June. I made my living outside, not in a pool or under the AC.

If its hot, they are laid up keeping cool. If its cool, they are moving, if its cold, they are looking for a place to get warm, be it a rock, or a road bed, someplace that will absorb heat and them along with it.

As I used to tell my hunters, " When it's hot, you have to look for 'em, if it's cool, you'd better be watching for 'em ! "

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:39 pm

WildRose wrote:I've treated bites from western Diamond back, massasauga, and mexican black tailed rattlesnakes for sure, and probably two of them were "prairie rattlers". The vets I've talked to in the Dakotas that have seen vaccinated dogs bitten up there report good results as well. I have yet to see a vacciated dog bitten that didn't heal up with far less damage and far more quickly than an unvaccinated dog.

Really the venom for most of the rattlesnakes is very similar so cross species protection is expected. However the Mojave Green which can be found in the Southwest, mainly AZ, NV, CA also has a neurotoxin in it's venom that is very powerful. The vaccine won't help with the neurotixic effects.

Thanks. Definitely good to hear.
Regarding cross-protection - I've been told by a few folks, including Red Rock, that the protection against the eastern diamondback was significantly less than that against the western. I'm sure the venoms are similiar, but apparently there are some different proteins in the eastern venom that make it especially nasty. The main reason I've held off on getting it done is I've been told it wasn't terribly effective against eastern diamondback venom. Actually, there are 2 reasons - the other is that the vaccine is very, very hard to find in my area.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:58 pm

Phermes we have both the Eastern and Western here in Texas. Where I used to live in Central Texas both species are present.

I'm very close with the people at RR and have been for a long time. We've talked specifically about the Eastern and what they say is that they expect there will be some level of cross protection but since they have not proven it in studies they can't promise you it will be as effective on them.

Now it's been a long time since my herpetology classes but I'd be willing to bet you that you will get significant protection against the Eastern Diamondback. At the very worse you will do no harm!

I've seen too much good come from this product where ever it's been used to say anything but "I highly recommend it."

Even if it's only fifty percent effective on the eastern that's a very significant improvement over no protection at all. What you are doing by vaccinating essentially is giving the dog the ability to make the equivalent of one or two vials of antivenin itself.

I know that in Human medicine the same anti venin (crofab) is used for all species of rattlesnake bites generally except for the Mojave Green. That's why if you are in that region where they are found it's extremely important that the species is identified positively. CR

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:50 am

Again, good to hear.

You're more generous than I am. I figure 20% effectiveness would be worth getting it. That 20% could easily be the difference between your dog making it or not. Or, from a financial aspect, it could mean administering one less vial of antivenin, and that stuff ain't cheap!!!

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:16 pm

how much is the anti venom normaly?

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:21 pm

A friend's pup was bit a few weeks ago. It was $1600. I'm guessing that's cheap.

bean1031 · Post by **bean1031** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:30 pm

*sorry I ment how much is the preventative vacine

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:35 pm

About $18.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:34 pm

parshal wrote:A friend's pup was bit a few weeks ago. It was $1600. I'm guessing that's cheap.

For one vial of antivenin, I think that's fairly expensive. When Shooter was bit, it was $500 a vial, which was on the low end. They told me it could range up to 2K a vial depending on availability. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the country, I can only speak for what we went through in Florida.

For the whole snakebite treatment, yes, it could've been much more expensive. Double that and it's about what it cost to save Shooter, which included 2 nights in ICU, 2 vials of antivenin, a plasma transfusion, and umpteen amounts of pain meds.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:02 pm

Phermes all this discussion prompted me to pick up the phone today and talk to my favorite Vet at Red Rock. I specifically brought up the cross protection and Eastern Diamondback in particular. The vaccine provides some protection, unfortunately the hemolytic component of the venom is significantly different than the other species so there will need to be more treatment for those dogs.

I asked if they were working on a specific innoculant for E. Diamondbacks and she said yes but it's going to take a while to get it perfected because of the differences.

When we talked about the number of birddogs from East Texas to Florida up though the carolinas where they and the cane break rattler are more common doing the math made it obvious to them that if/when they have a vaccine worked out specific to them it will be more than worth doing.

One thing they are going to put on the market very soon is their vaccine for horses. It's something they've been working on for several years and the trials last fall and this spring showed great progress and it's now awaiting approval at the FDA.

It's a great company with some really first rate Vet/Scientists and the longer I know them and see their product at work the more convinced I am that it's based on real world experience and good science. CR

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:12 am

Thanks for looking into that. If the eastern vaccine is as effective as the western one sounds like it is, I'd imagine them doing a healthy business selling it!

Until then, once I get all of these puppies sold, I'm going to get my older dogs taken care of with the current vaccine.

Stump · Post by **Stump** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:07 am

Don wrote:If I were in country where I might incounter a lot of snakes, I'd snake break, period. I don't have much of a problem with them here because they are usually down durning hunting season. I don't even hardly ever find them when training. I think I've killed four total while training. Several more while fishing in the summer.

.

DOn DOnt hunt the Dechutes river area LOL I see lots of rattlers there. Just a FYI

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:55 pm

Stump ole buddy, I have! it's about 30 mi from the house.

parshal · Post by **parshal** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:39 am

parshal wrote:A friend's pup was bit a few weeks ago. It was $1600. I'm guessing that's cheap.

I was wrong, it was actually $2500!

I almost stepped on a rattlesnake this weekend hunting mountain sharptails. We were at nearly 7000 feet in a large grass field with not a rock to be seen for as far as I could see. I never expected to find a rattler there.

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