Testing/ Trialing scenarios.... discuss "odd situation

[parshal]

One more then I'll give some time for people to respond and then I'll give the judge's call.

Also MH. Dog is on point with a backing dog. Handler flushes bird, bird flies directly to backing dog. The backing dog opens its mouth, but, honestly, does not move it's head, and the bird flies into it's mouth. What do you do as a judge (other than laugh at the scenario)?

[Don]

I have one that actually happened. AGD stake and a handler in his first trial. His dog does a really great job on the back course and about fifty yds out of the bird field, goes on a back for the brace mate. everything fine the dog shows no attempt to break off back at all. In fact the handler isn't even watching the dog, he's watching the dog on point. Both dogs go on and into the bird field. The dog that pointed on course goes on point again. The new handler with his dog see's the point and the new handler call's his dog off back? what do you do as judge?

[AHGSP]

Where's the second judge thru all this? How is the second handler in position the release his dog with a tap if no judge is around? I don't see anyway the second judge could have missed this. I've seen some judges do some awfully brazen stuff but nothing like this! Handlers are to stay with the judge; this just can't happen.

Don as brushy as some of the places I've run dogs are I can actually see this happening as well as the scene I laid out.

Sometimes as a judge in order to get the best view of the situation you have to ride around the brush to get in position, and you just can't see everything when there are lots of trees and brush.

Whenever possible when I'm judging and my partner and I are both watching the same scenario I will separate myself from the other judge so that we have two different angles to watch from as things develop. If both are right together then you might as well only have one judge. CR

Charlie got this pretty accurately. 1 Judge stayed where they could see through the tree row, as the other Judge was riding around it. There WAS a Judge watching, neither Handler was aware though. Not really sure how the other Handler made it to the position he did, but he didn't go around the row, so he must have broke through it further back down field instead of staying on course.?.?.?

[WildRose]

I have one that actually happened. AGD stake and a handler in his first trial. His dog does a really great job on the back course and about fifty yds out of the bird field, goes on a back for the brace mate. everything fine the dog shows no attempt to break off back at all. In fact the handler isn't even watching the dog, he's watching the dog on point. Both dogs go on and into the bird field. The dog that pointed on course goes on point again. The new handler with his dog see's the point and the new handler call's his dog off back? what do you do as judge?

Don if I read this right the new handler's dog was backing and he called it off without asking the judge if he can go on? I'm probably going to have him whoa the dog right there and allow the other handler to work the bird.

Once it is over I'm going to tell him his dog is out of contention and why but also tell him that he may leave the dog down as long as it doesn't interfere with it's bracemate. The dog is out but I'm assuming it's a very inexperienced handler that simply didn't realize that he had to have his dog back in EVERY situation presented, not just the first one. CR

[Don]

It wasn't backing yet. It was obviously going to but got called away by it's handler.

[WildRose]

Eww.. well that one's pretty well covered in the rules about "avoiding backing situations". That rule as we all know gets abused quite a bit however. I guess the call would be on just how obvious the whole thing was. In either case if it's an inexperienced handler I'll tell them what they did wrong. CR

[Don]

The dog would probably have backed but hadn't got there yet. The handler thought his dog only had to back one time and as he'd done it on course, called his dog away before it had the chance to. The dog in question was clearly my #1 dog at that point. It had a really great run. I went immediately to the handler and told him he couldn't do that, he didn't know. The dog went on to two finds and retrieves in the bird field and was flawless. Clearly this was the dog to beat except, one amature handling mistake.


At that time the Rules and standard Procedures clearly spelled out that amature stakes should be judged more leniently than open stakes and were to help promote field trialing. The rules also said that failure to back was to be severely punished.

The dog did not fail to back! At the conclusion of the stake we called back this dog and made it stand on back while a bird was shot for another dog. The dog was absolutely flawless. It got second place only because it's handler called it off. We had four placement's and that dog was clearly the dog to beat. The owner was informed of why he got second instead of first and was ok with it. Those that watched it had it explained if they asked about it and were ok with the answer. There were a few that weren't including a couple that didn't even see what happened. Wouldn't ya know it.

I looked up what it says in the current book and we could have still placed the dog by withholding second if we wanted to. The only way you can't use a dog like that is with two severe penalties in the brace. This dog had none, it's amature handler one!

[CherrystoneWeims]

Dang Parshal!

Scenario one... by the strictest interpretation of the rules the dog has gone birdless. However how do we know the bird didn't expire while the dog was on point? We don't!

Yeah been there! This past Feb. at a trial in Virginia it was so darn cold the birds were so cold when they were being put out that they were almost dead. I had a couple of points with my dog where I had to throw the bird such as in the scenario. The birds were still alive but were so stunned with the cold that they wouldn't fly. I was sweating it because I was worried that Pearl would see the bird go up, hear the blank see the bird fall and want to really retrieve it. Thank goodness I was able to collar her off. If this had been a MH test in the back course it would have been harder even though she will heel off very well.

[CherrystoneWeims]

The dog tracks the quail through the cover, over the bare dirt into the cover on the side when the quail wild flushes. The dog stops to flush. The dog not produce another bird in the field. Should the dog be called back for a retrieve or did the dog go birdless?

I would do a call back for a retrieve. The dog didn't go birdless. A bird was produced even though it flushed.

[Neil Mace]

Don,

I am sure you are a good judge, I would gladly run under you, you have given some thoughtful responses.

But I have always believed the purpose of field trials is to find the best dog, not the perfect one, the one that showed the most overall skill. I try to overlook a lot of stuff, as long as the dog does not interfere with the bracemate (the only reason I know to pick up a dog). So I can take a error or two, from the dog and for sure from the handler. If judges used the same standards for the handler as they do the dogs, most of us would be picked up in the first 5 minutes.

The AKC rules says a dog should be severly penalized for not backing, and for the dog or handler avoiding a back. Goes on to say that a dog that steals point (interferes) should be picked up. It makes a disticntion.

We have all heard you can't win a field trial with a back, but you can sure lose one.

How many times does a dog have to prove he will back? I will give the judge one. In the first place, my dog ought to be to the front, we don't have many bird fields these days in the Central/Mid-West, and I am thankful.

I probably would have used the dog first, cause even with a severe penalty, he sounded like the best dog that day. You would have to give him some credit for handling and cooperation when he let the handler call him off the back, that and his other demonstrated skills might overcome the penalty.

Iteresting situation, it was not easy,

Neil

[phermes1]

OK - who here has NOT avoided a back while running their dog? I mean - REALLY?
OK, sure, fault the handler for being blatantly obvious about it, but sheesh - stones and glass houses...

[Don]

Me. I never avoided them. Most guys did because you can't win a stake with one, only get picked up!

[Don]

Thank you Neil. actually the other judge wanted to give the dog 3rd and another dog 2nd, but it wasn't even close to the same class. Had the handler not pulled the dog, we'd still be arguing about first, which went to a buddy of his. Really nice dog but outclassed. Rules state a dog refusing to back or pulled off can't recieve championship points. well that was still an amature stake and that was the best dog.

[Neil Mace]

Don,

I am not aware of such a rule, about no championship points for not backing or pulling a dog off. I thought it said "severly penalized" and "generally" should not get ch points, then something about a dog "severly penalized" twice should not be placed.

1 - E Honor ing in gun dog, all-age, limited gun
dog, and limited all-age stakes. A dog encountering
its bracemate on point must honor. Failure of a dog to honor when it sees its bracemate on
point must be severely penalized, and the intentional
avoidance by a dog or a handler of an honoring
situation must also be severely penalized. A
dog that steals its bracemate’s point must be
ordered up by the Judges.

Severely Pena l i ze—To impose a punishment
or handicap upon a dog for a breach of manners
or some other serious fault. Generally, a dog that
has been severely penalized once during judgement
should not receive championship points. A
dog that has been severely penalized more than
once should not receive a placement.

I was not there, but I do not think it would come under "generally", as you describe it, it seems extraordinary.

Also about awarding second, I think the rules say not to do that if the dog does not deserve ch. points, as the 1st place dog might be disqualified.

Judges should withhold 2nd place in an Open
Stake if the per formance of that dog would not
merit championship points should the dog placed
1st be found to be ineligible.

Based on the number of star ters in an Amateur
Stake, Judges should withhold either 2nd, 3rd, or
4th placements if the per formance of a dog would
not merit championship points should one of the
dog’s placing either 1st, 2nd or 3rd be found to be
ineligible.

I would guess AKC has not updated the Open rule above since they started giving ch points for the 2nd place dog in 25+ starters.

Some learn the rules to negative judge, I learn them for wiggle room. By knowing the rules, I can often find a way to reward the best dog.

You bring up a another good point, in there are always two judges, so there should be some compromise, or at least some consideration given to the other judge's opinion.

No doubt you did the right thing, thanks for bring it up.

[AHGSP]

Here are two good situations to discuss. Both are MH.

First, a dog points a warm, dead bird. Per judges request, the handler picks up the bird, tosses it, shoots and heels the dog away. That's his only find in the field. Did he go birdless?

Second, a dog points. The handler walks in for the flush and no bird. The handler relocates the dog and she catwalks forward just as both judges, the handler and bracemate's handler see the quail walk out of the cover directly in front of the dog and walk across open dirt into cover on the other side. The dog does not see the bird. The dog tracks the quail through the cover, over the bare dirt into the cover on the side when the quail wild flushes. The dog stops to flush. The dog not produce another bird in the field. Should the dog be called back for a retrieve or did the dog go birdless?

On the 1st: Where was the other Master dog during the run? If the potential was there that the other Master had gone around taking out birds, I would give the opportunity to demonstrate steadiness and retrieve on a callback if need be, or have a bird planted while in the birdfield.

If the birds were just dying, I would do the same.

Down to what is balck and white though, the dog technically went birdless...

On the 2nd: Dog should be given a callback. A bird was produced, so it didn't go birdless and it sounds as though it handled it the best that could be expected.

[AHGSP]

One more then I'll give some time for people to respond and then I'll give the judge's call.

Also MH. Dog is on point with a backing dog. Handler flushes bird, bird flies directly to backing dog. The backing dog opens its mouth, but, honestly, does not move it's head, and the bird flies into it's mouth. What do you do as a judge (other than laugh at the scenario)?

You're pulling our legs, RIGHT?!

After I've picked myself back up off the ground from falling off my horse laughing, we're going to call that FUBAR and move on down field and try again and I'll spend the rest of my life shaking my head on that one!
I might also give the backing dog a 10 in Retrieve!

You are BS'ing us......righttttt?

[parshal]

First, a dog points a warm, dead bird. Per judges request, the handler picks up the bird, tosses it, shoots and heels the dog away. That's his only find in the field. Did he go birdless?

This happened to my dog. They said that counted as a bird find in the field and he went on to pass. Personally, I don't think that was fair. A dog in the next brace paused briefly at a dead bird and then picked it up and delivered it to hand. They failed that dog saying it should have pointed it. At least they were consistent in that they wanted dogs to point dead birds, not retrieve them. I want my dog to retrieve dead birds, not point them.

Second, a dog points. The handler walks in for the flush and no bird. The handler relocates the dog and she catwalks forward just as both judges, the handler and bracemate's handler see the quail walk out of the cover directly in front of the dog and walk across open dirt into cover on the other side. The dog does not see the bird. The dog tracks the quail through the cover, over the bare dirt into the cover on the side when the quail wild flushes. The dog stops to flush. The dog not produce another bird in the field. Should the dog be called back for a retrieve or did the dog go birdless?

They said this dog went birdless and did not call her back. She failed that day. This was a half sister to my dog and I watched the whole thing happen.

Also MH. Dog is on point with a backing dog. Handler flushes bird, bird flies directly to backing dog. The backing dog opens its mouth, but, honestly, does not move it's head, and the bird flies into it's mouth. What do you do as a judge (other than laugh at the scenario)?

Seriously, this happened. I witnessed it. It was a half sister (different than the one above) to my dog. The dog was failed for catching the bird.

[Don]

Neil,

I had to look up what the rules says now so did. What I found was that championship points should be with held. I don't recall what it said back then. But we had deserving dogs for placements and I couldn't see not awarding those placements. In order to have placed that dog today, the rules would require witholding 2nd and giving that dog third and throwing out the fourth place dog. Under the circumstances we had then, if it happened again today I'd do the same thing and just take whatever heat came from it. I'd like to think it would fall under "extrodinary circumstances". In any case, it would be a judgement call that I'd hope I could justify.

[parshal]

Two more things that I've seen that I question. First, as mentioned above, is the retrieve of dead birds. The sire of my GSP picked up a shot dead bird that was left in the field from the previous brace and delivered it to hand. The owner had seen the previous handler drop it in the field as well as one of the judges. When questioned, the judge said "yeah, we should have picked that up but your dog should have pointed it, too." That's just silly. These are hunting dogs and they should retrieving dead birds. The PCNA BIT (Pudelpointer Club of North American Breed Improvement Test) intentionally leaves two warm dead birds in the field to see what the dog does when it comes across them. They are expected to retrieve to hand. That shows a high level of cooperation. These are hunting dogs we're testing.

Second, retrieving. I've seen people on their knees facing away from their dogs coaxing them in on a retrieve. They give multiple commands and they still pass. To be fair, I passed a leg that I should have never passed. On a callback for a retrieve my dog is sent for the shot quail. He runs directly to the bird, picks it up and immediately drops it and jumps back as if it bit him. He runs halfway back to me before heading back. He sniffs it and jumps back again. I give a harsh fetch command and he delivers to hand. The bird was excessively bloody but no entrails hanging out and in otherwise fine condition. I have no explanation since the dog has never done that before or since then and has been hunted a lot. However, if I were judging that I would have failed the dog. I got a Christmas present in April!

[Don]

Here it is. Under Judges guidlines, glossary of terms, page 56, "Severely Penalized".

Can't figure out how to copy it.

"Generally, a dog that has been severely penalized once durning judgement should not recieve championship points".

I'd key on "generally" in this case.

[Yawallac]

Two more things that I've seen that I question. First, as mentioned above, is the retrieve of dead birds. The sire of my GSP picked up a shot dead bird that was left in the field from the previous brace and delivered it to hand. The owner had seen the previous handler drop it in the field as well as one of the judges. When questioned, the judge said "yeah, we should have picked that up but your dog should have pointed it, too." That's just silly. These are hunting dogs and they should retrieving dead birds. The PCNA BIT (Pudelpointer Club of North American Breed Improvement Test) intentionally leaves two warm dead birds in the field to see what the dog does when it comes across them. They are expected to retrieve to hand. That shows a high level of cooperation. These are hunting dogs we're testing.

Brian,

I agree with you. If a dog retrieves a dead bird I would not penalize him. IMO, a dog that points a dead bird doesn't understand what he's smelling.


Bruce,

Great thread.


Charlie,

I would run under you anytime. Excellent analysis IMO.

[Don]

First, a dog points a warm, dead bird. Per judges request, the handler picks up the bird, tosses it, shoots and heels the dog away. That's his only find in the field. Did he go birdless?

Second, a dog points. The handler walks in for the flush and no bird. The handler relocates the dog and she catwalks forward just as both judges, the handler and bracemate's handler see the quail walk out of the cover directly in front of the dog and walk across open dirt into cover on the other side. The dog does not see the bird. The dog tracks the quail through the cover, over the bare dirt into the cover on the side when the quail wild flushes. The dog stops to flush. The dog not produce another bird in the field. Should the dog be called back for a retrieve or did the dog go birdless?

Also MH. Dog is on point with a backing dog. Handler flushes bird, bird flies directly to backing dog. The backing dog opens its mouth, but, honestly, does not move it's head, and the bird flies into it's mouth. What do you do as a judge (other than laugh at the scenario)?

First one I'd credit the find but low. dog should be able to tell the difference between a dead and live bird

In the second, the dog had a find, they saw the bird walk out then the dog bumped but stopped to flush. Credit a find and a stop to flush. But I'd like to see more of the run.

In the third, I wouldn't do much more than laught at that. Credit the find and go on. If a call back is needed for a retrieve, so be it.

I had a similar thing happer to me once. Had Lefty down in an all age starke and the flushed bird flew right at him. He turned his head, the bird hit him, ran under him and reflushed on the other side. They picked him up for moving as he swapped ends. No forward motion!

Another time in training I had him on a bird and Tia on a back. The bird came up and I shot it. It landed right at Tia's feet. Sent Lefty to retreive and Tia started growling at him and wouldn't let him have it. finally went over and picked it up myself. what to do!

[parshal]

I think this comment should be made. When I relate these stories to my friends that don't trial or run AKC tests they all seem to indicate that they'd never run their dogs in these events. That, somehow, these isolated events are how all the tests are run. I keep telling them that this isn't the norm but it just doesn't get through.

So, for all those reading these stories and thinking to themselves, "wow, I'll never run my dog under these crazy rules." It's not always like this. These are isolated situations that come up when you run dogs on planted birds in "set up" situations. If you hunt your dog long enough you'll find other strange situations but nobody seems to recall those. They just want to blame the test/trial.

[WildRose]

One more then I'll give some time for people to respond and then I'll give the judge's call.

Also MH. Dog is on point with a backing dog. Handler flushes bird, bird flies directly to backing dog. The backing dog opens its mouth, but, honestly, does not move it's head, and the bird flies into it's mouth. What do you do as a judge (other than laugh at the scenario)?

You're pulling our legs, RIGHT?!

After I've picked myself back up off the ground from falling off my horse laughing, we're going to call that FUBAR and move on down field and try again and I'll spend the rest of my life shaking my head on that one!
I might also give the backing dog a 10 in Retrieve!

You are BS'ing us......righttttt?

Bruce I actually had something quite similar in a hunt test a couple of years ago. Dog is running hard, hot day, with the wind at his back. A bird pops from behind the dog, dog wheels around and stops to flush. He's standing with his mouth open and the bird hits him smack in the mouth. Both judges and I see it clearly.

We went on, no harm, no foul, just a very good laugh. CR

[WildRose]

Here are two good situations to discuss. Both are MH.

First, a dog points a warm, dead bird. Per judges request, the handler picks up the bird, tosses it, shoots and heels the dog away. That's his only find in the field. Did he go birdless?

Second, a dog points. The handler walks in for the flush and no bird. The handler relocates the dog and she catwalks forward just as both judges, the handler and bracemate's handler see the quail walk out of the cover directly in front of the dog and walk across open dirt into cover on the other side. The dog does not see the bird. The dog tracks the quail through the cover, over the bare dirt into the cover on the side when the quail wild flushes. The dog stops to flush. The dog not produce another bird in the field. Should the dog be called back for a retrieve or did the dog go birdless?

On the 1st: Where was the other Master dog during the run? If the potential was there that the other Master had gone around taking out birds, I would give the opportunity to demonstrate steadiness and retrieve on a callback if need be, or have a bird planted while in the birdfield.

If the birds were just dying, I would do the same.

Down to what is balck and white though, the dog technically went birdless...

On the 2nd: Dog should be given a callback. A bird was produced, so it didn't go birdless and it sounds as though it handled it the best that could be expected.

here is a situation where this can get abused by a judge who is such a stickler for the rules he forgets why we are there.

Tough day, very few dogs with any bird work at all in a 4 point stake. High winds, terrible scenting conditions.

We see my dog go on point about 300-400 yards out. We're about 100 yards out when a hawk dives out of the tree above the dog, makes a strike about fifteen yards in front of the dog, and is seen dropping something as if flies away.

Dog though bewildered apparently stands through it all. I point out to the judge as we're riding up that the hawk just dropped what appears to be a quail as it's leaving.

Get there to work the find. All that can be found is a feather pile about fifteen yards in front of the dog.

I relocate the dog and sure enough she points the hawk kill about another ten or twenty yards from the feather pile. We BOTH saw the hawk dive. Both saw it drop the dead bird.

We'd had a great race, dog handled and hunted extremely well but the judge would not give her credit for the find. He told me later that had she had a "good clean find" she was the top dog in the stake.

In this case we both clearly knew she'd pointed a live bird because this sucker was still bleeding when we got there, but because he was so worried about what someone in the gallery might say, he made a bad call which cost that dog a major retrieving win! CR

[WildRose]

"Another time in training I had him on a bird and Tia on a back. The bird came up and I shot it. It landed right at Tia's feet. Sent Lefty to retreive and Tia started growling at him and wouldn't let him have it. finally went over and picked it up myself. what to do!"

Heel the bossy bitch away ten or fifteen yards whoa her, and then let that poor dog get his retrieve! HA! CR

[WildRose]

Parshall is right. Let these screwey scenarios not scare you off! We are talking about the odd/unusual "you ain't gonna believe this" kind of things that will pop up from time to time if you play these games long enough.

These are good mental exercises for competitors, potential competitors, judges and future judges alike.

We have a whole bunch of rules for both hunt test and field trial situations, but many leave a lot of room for interpretation and unfortunately some judges want to make themselves more a part of the action than they should so occasionally you will see a judge that abuses, ignores, or simply creates garbage interpretations of the rules because they want to.

Most people who take the time to judge however are doing so because it's a way to give back to the sport. You cannot run field trials or hunt tests without judges!

Judging is a huge and frequently thankless job for which there is rarely any profit financially or otherwise and usually a number of people who will complain forever about how you called a given situaiton. Add long drives, and saddle sores and pretty soon you begin to wonder why any of us will do it! CR

[AHGSP]

AMEN Parshall and Charlie! Not the norm, but weird things happen!

There is a whole lot of folks behind the scenes of an event that most don't realize are VERY important, are seldom Thanked and you could never run an event without!
Thank your Chairperson, Secretary, Judges, Gunners, Marshall's, Bird Planters, etc...!

[CherrystoneWeims]

Judging is a huge and frequently thankless job for which there is rarely any profit financially or otherwise and usually a number of people who will complain forever about how you called a given situaiton. Add long drives, and saddle sores and pretty soon you begin to wonder why any of us will do it! CR
_________________

Add in the bird planter also!! I frequently will plant birds for tests or trials. What a thankless job. Heck I have had people complain about my bird planting when their dog goes birdless. Oh and I love the owners that tell me "plant the birds in the squeeze" If your dog can only find birds because it stumbles on them it shouldn't become a FC, SH, or MH. I can't tell you how many of the top dogs I have seen run right past many of the spots where I KNOW there are birds.

When I mentioned about my situation of having to toss the birds they were actually still alive. It was so cold that they were in a stupor. Several people put them inside of their jackets and they revived. It was a recipe for disaster for many dogs. Thank goodness we had a clean run.

[AHGSP]

This should be an interesting one:

Walking Trial, Open Gun Dog, 1 is a FC and 1 is Broke, but in his 1st OGD Stake. Last brace of 10 braces.

Young dog goes down field 600 yards from the break away and has a find, 1 Judge calls it standing, Handler has to walk across the field 200 yards to get to the dog, dog stands, Handler works the bird and the dog handles to perfection. FC has gone around the corner and is out of sight into the next field. Handler sends young dog again and it goes out, around the corner and 60 yards back down the next edge stands a bird. Same Judge sees the dog through the 30 foot wide woods row and again calls the young dog standing. As the handler is getting up to the corner he sees the FC come across field to the edge the young dog is standing on and disappear. As the handler of the young dog rounds the corner, he sees the FC backing, its handler standing beside it and then to his amazement, sees the handler release/tap out the FC from honor, at which it promptly runs in and steals point. Judge that called it standing, unknown to Handlers or other Judge, sees this happen through the tree row from atop of their horse. The FC Handler, unaware that they were seen by Judge or Handler ask the young dogs Handler, "How do you want to handle this?"

As the Handler of the young dog, how do you handle the situation? You've seen the other handler purposefully release the dog from honor, no question and saw the FC steal point!
As the Judge that has seen the infraction, how do you handle the situation?

As the judge, easy call - FC gets his butt picked up asap.

As the handler, that's a bit tougher; telling the judge doesn't accomplish much; he can't take MY word for it if he didn't see it personally.
Quite frankly, if I saw my bracemate do that, I'd be pretty pissed. If he then had the balls to ask me how "I wanted to handle it", I'd probably respond, "Well, your dog just stole point, so you tell me." Loud enough for the judge to hear. The other handler will surely play dumb and certainly won't pick his dog up, but I'd put it out there anyway
I would then pray that the judge was close enough to see what happened, because otherwise I'm SOL.

I actually did turn around in shock and ask the other Judge as they came around the corner "Did you see that? He released his dog from honor!"
When the FC Handler asked how I wanted to handle it, I replied pretty much as Paul suggested and told him "It was my dogs point and you released your d@m^ dog off back and it stole point, so I'm going to work MY DOGS BIRD!" This may have been a bad choice, as I started to move in about 10', my pup lifted 1 foot and moved it 2 inches. I gave a "STOP" hand caution, no verbal and moved forward another 10' and he lifted his other foot and moved it 2 inches. At that point I just turned to the Judges and told them my dog moved and I was picking him up. Judge told me "You don't have too, but it's at your discretion handler." I said "nah, he moved, I'm picking up."

At that point, as I'm walking away fast before I say or do anything stupid, the other handler had the nerve to ask the Judges how they wanted him to handle it since my dog had stolen point. Judge says: "No Sir, that's not what happened, in fact, your dog was standing over here backing, you walked up beside it and somehow it released off honor and went in and stole point. Now you can pick your dog up...., or you can run it if you want to since it's the last brace...... that's your choice"

[phermes1]

Good for you! And good for the judge to call that guy on his BS!!!!