Pointing Dead Birds

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parshal
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Pointing Dead Birds

Post by parshal » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:35 am

Rather than hijack the very good thread about Test/Trials I thought I'd start a new one with this.
Yawallac wrote:If a dog retrieves a dead bird I would not penalize him. IMO, a dog that points a dead bird doesn't understand what he's smelling.
I agree to a point (no pun). A dog that consistently points dead birds doesn't understand OR they have been trained too much to stop at first scent. The latter would be a dog that's been trained for tests and hasn't been hunted hard.

Personally, I'd like to see them pause for a moment, determine it's dead and then go in for the retrieve. I'll forgive a dog, especially a young one, that periodically points a warm, dead bird but retrieves with gusto when given another command. A dog that consistently points dead birds is one that catwalks around the field pointing all sorts of old scent. They would be worthless in the hunting field.

Thoughts everyone?

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Post by ezzy333 » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:36 am

A dog that consistently points dead birds is one that catwalks around the field pointing all sorts of old scent. They would be worthless in the hunting field.

Thoughts everyone?

Not much room for thoughts left.

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Post by WildRose » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:43 am

Parshal that's still something about trials I'm having a hard time wrapping myself around.

If in trialing we're supposed to be showcasing the best attributes of a hunting dog why on earth is it the rule rather than the exception when a dog suddenly appears carrying a dead bird to order that dog up?

Even if it's a very warm dead bird, or even if it still has something of a heartbeat, if you don't see that dog take out birds it should of pointed how can one instantly determine a foul has been comitted? If my dogs while hunting come across a dead or wounded bird why on earth would I expect them to point it rather than bring it to me?

Because of this I think most trial trainers are forced to train the dog to do something completely unnatural which is to either ignore or point dead birds. Both create dogs that I think are sloppy in the field to one way or the other.

"You can't judge what you didn't see". If you didn't see the dog bust, chase, and catch a bird how can you determine a breech of manners has occurred?

I have seen two judges that were pretty forgiving on the first bird brought back, but told the handler the dog's were done if they came back with a second.

I asked one of them about it and he quoted the "You can't judge..." axiom. He added however that if the dog was indeed taking birds out and catching them, most likely he'd see it before the brace was done thus eliminating any question.

After reflecting on it somewhat this certainly seemed like a much better way to judge such occurances. CR
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Post by parshal » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:56 am

I agree 100% WR. I must say, that in NAVHDA, unless the judges witness the takeout they will not judge the dog down for it. However, in a NAVHDA test they must have a point and shot bird to judge. If the dog does not find it on their own they will plant one for it. So, if a dog brings back a couple of birds that the judges did not see they will plant one for the dog so that they can clearly see what's happening. If they do not like the first one they'll do it again until they have enough to judge. But, a Utility dog that did not find a bird on it's own in the field isn't going to get a prize 1.

If you truly can't judge what you can't see then you can't remove a dog for contention for bringing a bird back. Most likely, given that all of this is a contrived hunting situation, I would probably judge like the judge you asked. It's about as fair as you can get given the circumstances of competition.

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Post by brav302 » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:36 pm

I have to disagree. I'm no expert and I didn't read the other thread so I don't know what breed was in question. But my dog is a GSP thats german shorthair pointer. Not german shorthair retreiver. I feel these dogs although versitle are pointers. So to point a dead bird that is warm not one thats been out there for a day and has lost its bird scent I would consider natural. My dog dosen't catwalk through the field or point everything. If he is locked on point I can gaurantee theres a bird there. But if he dosen't see a bird fall due to an obstruction when I send him for the retreive he usualy points the bird upon finding it I say dead and fetch and he snatches it up immediatly. I would not consider this anything but normal. Thats just my opinion for what ever its worth.

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Post by slistoe » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:37 pm

I don't own any dogs that point dead, but I have hunted with a couple that were owned by other folks. They were anything but "catwalks around pointing all sorts of old scent." Balls to the wall, choke bore noses is what these dogs were.

As far as the training thing goes, Charlie, since you are supposing that trailers do some wonky training to avoid being picked up in a trial could you suppose for me how it is that these trialers are going about the training to be sure their dog points dead birds?

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Post by Neil Mace » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:37 am

I have seen judges ask to see the dead bird that was retrieved to check the body temperature. Once it was 80 degrees and since I didn't have a dog in the stake, I told the judge I had a rectal thermometer back at the truck he could borrow. Or we could do a necropsy to determine the time of death. He didn't think I was funny.

When I am judging, retrieving a dead bird is a non-event. Put that bird in your pocket and show me your dog on live birds.

Got to say, if it is still alive, no matter how near death, the dog shouldn't have brought it back, he is going on the rope. I can make a case for a wild bird hunting dog retrieving wounded birds, but with the weak, sickly pen birds we are running on, we could use that logic to watch the dog clean up the field.

Neil

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Post by AHGSP » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:55 am

Neil Mace wrote: I can make a case for a wild bird hunting dog retrieving wounded birds, but with the weak, sickly pen birds we are running on, we could use that logic to watch the dog clean up the field.

Neil
You make a very valid statement here Neil and one I'm at a loss for. It took me doing a lot of looking around to find a supplier of excellent flying and healthy birds for training with and using at our Test. The Quail will give 100 yard+ flights and the Chukar and Phez, 200-300 yards easily.

So my question is, WHY do Chairs not do the research to find good suppliers with good birds and keep their reservations a year in advance? Granted, weather conditions can kill the best of birds, but I've run at far too many events, Test and Trials, where weather had nothing to do with the poor quality of the birds.
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Post by WildRose » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:15 am

slistoe wrote:I don't own any dogs that point dead, but I have hunted with a couple that were owned by other folks. They were anything but "catwalks around pointing all sorts of old scent." Balls to the wall, choke bore noses is what these dogs were.

As far as the training thing goes, Charlie, since you are supposing that trailers do some wonky training to avoid being picked up in a trial could you suppose for me how it is that these trialers are going about the training to be sure their dog points dead birds?
Scott I'm not supposing anything I relating exactly what I've seen at trials and how trainers prepare for such things in training for trials.

The only dogs I have seen that point fresh dead birds are those that have either had a lot of pressure put on them to make them "truly staunch" or have flat been burned off of birds they tried to pick up in training with the exception of a few dogs mostly pointers who always pointed dead birds but would not retrieve.

Since it's simply not anything you'd have to train for, for wild bird hunting who else is going to train for it other than people that run in hunt tests and trials where sick and dying birds are unfortunately all too common?

How would you train for it? Quite easily. When you have dead birds on your training course and when the dog goes to pick one up bust him for it. Pretty soon he'll learn to either ignore them, or will stand there and point them!

Now how about addressing the issue. CR
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Post by WildRose » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:18 am

AHGSP wrote:
Neil Mace wrote: I can make a case for a wild bird hunting dog retrieving wounded birds, but with the weak, sickly pen birds we are running on, we could use that logic to watch the dog clean up the field.

Neil
You make a very valid statement here Neil and one I'm at a loss for. It took me doing a lot of looking around to find a supplier of excellent flying and healthy birds for training with and using at our Test. The Quail will give 100 yard+ flights and the Chukar and Phez, 200-300 yards easily.

So my question is, WHY do Chairs not do the research to find good suppliers with good birds and keep their reservations a year in advance? Granted, weather conditions can kill the best of birds, but I've run at far too many events, Test and Trials, where weather had nothing to do with the poor quality of the birds.
Bruce I know in many cases it's simply a matter of availability. For some of the clubs I am involved in they simply have to take what can be found, particularly in NM. There just aren't that many game bird breeders out that way and you get what you can and live with it.

The birds we ran on in Colorado this last weekend were as good as I've ever seen in some cases even flightier than what you normally expect with wild birds, but then with the conditions we had nothing was "normal" at all. CR
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Post by WildRose » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:24 am

And all of this of course leads us around the bend to another judging situation.

Dog is doing a nice job going around the course but has pointed three dead birds and we're only half way around. Finally he points a live one.

Dog hasnt' missed a piece of good cover, and has worked all the lines and objectives properly but keeps finding dead birds. How many of these are non events, and when do you say "enough's enough" ... CR
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Post by slistoe » Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:59 pm

There is no penalty for the retrieve of a dead bird. Retrieve of freshly dead birds is suspect, but only if it is recurring would I move a dog down for it. Retrieval of live birds is a pick up. Pointing of dead birds is a non event, unless it is a recurring theme in which case the dog will be moved down for lack of discernment in nose. It is generally accepted that when a dog stops we expect to see a bird fly, whether trialling or hunting. If there are enough dead birds lying about on a course that a dog can point dead birds repeatedly in a 1/2 hour stake then there is more wrong than the performance of that particular dog.

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Post by Yawallac » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:06 pm

How would you train for it? Quite easily. When you have dead birds on your training course and when the dog goes to pick one up bust him for it. Pretty soon he'll learn to either ignore them, or will stand there and point them!
Right. :roll:
If there are enough dead birds lying about on a course that a dog can point dead birds repeatedly in a 1/2 hour stake then there is more wrong than the performance of that particular dog.
:lol:

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Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:14 am

Any good hunting dog, IMO, is going to pick up and retrieve any dead bird he comes across. He's been ff'd to do just that. But that's speaking as a hunter, not a trialer. IMO, a dog that smells cold bird or bloody bird, should retrieve and not point it.
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Post by WildRose » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:08 pm

Scott it's not really that hard to have just that sort of thing happen particularly in the midwest. You combine not so healthy pen birds, with a severe drop in temperature and a cold rain and a great many of the birds planted that day or the previous day will be littering the corse with cold, dead bodies.

We had some trials in South Dakota and NE last spring wher that became a real serious problem.

Yaw instead of trying to be funny why don't you actually contribute your thoughts if you have any. CR
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Post by Yawallac » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:01 pm

Yaw instead of trying to be funny why don't you actually contribute your thoughts if you have any. CR
Charlie,

I guess I'll respond any way I choose. But for the love of Pete! What kind of training was that!?!?!?! I respect much of what you write, but every once in a while you go a little over the top to try to make a point. Who trains a dog to point dead with an ecollar?! LOL.

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Post by WildRose » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:58 pm

Maybe you're having trouble grasping the concept yaw so I'll lay it out for you.

You have a dog that you want to finish as an FC. He shows great potential all the way around.

However he keeps getting picked up for bringing back dead birds because you have judges who will toss your dog for a single "bring back" no matter the condition of the bird.

How would you solve this issue???

I see a LOT of dogs pointing dead birds both at trials and in the field hunting. Inevitibly it is caused by one of two things. First are dogs that simply dogs that don't like to retrieve at all but will hunt dead when commanded and then point them for you to come and get.

The second and the one that most applies to this discussion are dogs that have had a LOT of pressure, usually electrically to dissuade them from ever diving in on a bird, live, dead or dying. This is CAUSED by too much pressure in training.

It's pretty logical therefore to assume that when you see this happening regularly with a given person's trial string how it has been caused.

It would also seem like a pretty logical assumption that since shocking dogs on live birds can create dogs that blink live birds, and that it's common practice to call dogs off of "non game" things and then to hit them with the collar if they continue ratting around or what ever that you can use the exact same thing to teach them to "leave it" when they encounter a dead bird on course.

Dog starts to work what you know to be a dead bird, call it off, if it persists give him a bump on the collar. Pretty soon the dog has learned to blink or ignore the dead birds and continue on looking for live ones.

What's so tough about all that? Where are the holes in the logic? CR
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Post by WildRose » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:01 pm

Yawallac wrote:
Yaw instead of trying to be funny why don't you actually contribute your thoughts if you have any. CR
Charlie,

I guess I'll respond any way I choose. But for the love of Pete! What kind of training was that!?!?!?! I respect much of what you write, but every once in a while you go a little over the top to try to make a point. Who trains a dog to point dead with an ecollar?! LOL.
since you clearly missed the point i'll make it plain. You don't purposely teach a dog to point dead with the e collar, you accidentally create the problem by using the collar too much staunching dogs up... . CR
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Post by Yawallac » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:22 pm

You don't purposely teach a dog to point dead with the e collar
Actually, that was my point.
You have a dog that you want to finish as an FC. He shows great potential all the way around.

However he keeps getting picked up for bringing back dead birds because you have judges who will toss your dog for a single "bring back" no matter the condition of the bird.

How would you solve this issue???
In a field trial it won't "help" the dog to retrieve a found dead bird, but a judge should take the bird and determine as best he can that the bird was dead and not caught and killed by the dog. If everything else has been in order the dog should not be penalized. However, there are some judges that will penalize a dog for that. Oh well. You certainly shouldn't try to train for that. You just hope that the birds are good flying birds and train your dog appropriately. I don't believe this situation should be "solved" through training that in all liklihood will cause a dog to blink.
I see a LOT of dogs pointing dead birds both at trials and in the field hunting. Inevitibly it is caused by one of two things. First are dogs that simply dogs that don't like to retrieve at all but will hunt dead when commanded and then point them for you to come and get.

The second and the one that most applies to this discussion are dogs that have had a LOT of pressure, usually electrically to dissuade them from ever diving in on a bird, live, dead or dying. This is CAUSED by too much pressure in training.
I think there is a third reason that dogs point dead and that is the quality of the dogs nose ...and that goes back to the post that started this thread. I don't believe that they understand what they are smelling.

I know that a dog with a quality nose can distinguish between a live healthy bird, a live wounded bird and a dead bird. He may point initially, but his nose knows and will provide the information necessary to either retrieve or point the bird. Many dogs that point dead are simply missing some of the pieces of the puzzle and no amount of training can correct the problem.

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Post by Ruffshooter » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:48 pm

Well, had a French brit pup prior to my joining NAVHDA that would point dead when I shot birds. Just did not like having a twitching bird in his mouth. I thought as long as he finds them I am okay with that. Then, I joined NAVHDA and saw these dogs making great retrieves to hand. I said to my self, self I want that! So I learned to force fetch a dog. It took a while but got it done and the dog would do decent retrieves then after a few days of wild bird hunting after the FF he absoulutely loved and took pride in retrieving. Problem fixed. No more pointing dead.

Just my experience with this.
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Post by WildRose » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:10 pm

In a field trial it won't "help" the dog to retrieve a found dead bird, but a judge should take the bird and determine as best he can that the bird was dead and not caught and killed by the dog. If everything else has been in order the dog should not be penalized. However, there are some judges that will penalize a dog for that. Oh well. You certainly shouldn't try to train for that. You just hope that the birds are good flying birds and train your dog appropriately. I don't believe this situation should be "solved" through training that in all liklihood will cause a dog to blink.
Well yaw, that's the difference between us. What I described are two dogs that I have trained. One who'd had a TON of wild bird hunting prior to his firs trial, as in many years and thousands of birds shot over him. He would routinely bring back dead birds off of the course or pick up a weak, sick, dying bird because it obviously resembled a wounded bird. The dog was doing nothing "wrong" for a hunting dog but it was behavior that cost him several placements. We solved the issue by putting some very fresh dead birds on our training course and taught him to ignore them rather than scoop them up, in the manner I just described.

I also had a pup that got to where he would point a dead bird for fear of moving. It was caused in the exact manner I described by his owner who had used the collar too much in staunching the pup up. He was afraid that even with a dead bird he'd get busted for moving. Yes he certainly knew the difference between the two because he had been retrieving and huntind dead very well as a derby dog but got to where instead of retrieving he would simply point the dead birds even when shot from his points.

That problem was easily solved with a half dozen winged (barely hit) birds that he was sent to retrieve. The first few required releasing him multiple times from the re-points but he finally got the idea.

Of course that did have a slight impact on his steadiness which we worked out slowly over the course of about a month.

Often there can be unforseen and unintended consequences from well intended and logical training proceedures.

Sometimes as a trainer reading the dog, seein the problem, understanding how it was caused, are essential in solving the problem in a simple and logical manner. You dont' have to be a genius, sometimes you just have to think like a dog to understand what might be going through there head and why. CR
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Post by Yawallac » Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:34 pm

Well yaw, that's the difference between us. What I described are two dogs that I have trained. One who'd had a TON of wild bird hunting prior to his firs trial, as in many years and thousands of birds shot over him. He would routinely bring back dead birds off of the course or pick up a weak, sick, dying bird because it obviously resembled a wounded bird. The dog was doing nothing "wrong" for a hunting dog but it was behavior that cost him several placements. We solved the issue by putting some very fresh dead birds on our training course and taught him to ignore them rather than scoop them up, in the manner I just described.
You're absolutely right. I wouldn't have done that. The dog was doing nothing wrong. I would find better trials to run. They either get better birds or they lose my entries. But I run Pointers and most of our trial dogs don't have to be encouraged not to retrieve, so pointing dead isn't something I see much of. When I see it it is usually a lack of nose.
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I agree. I've been saying that for years. I believe the better trainers are just better at it.

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Post by Neil Mace » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:35 pm

I know a dog can tell a dead bird from a live one. I think they can tell one is freshly shot, as I think they can smell the blood.

But I am at a loss as to how they could tell a sick bird (no blood) without first seeing if it can fly. When I have dogs bringing back live birds, I start quesitoning how staunch they are.

Been thinking about training one of mine not to have such a tender mouth, the least he could do is kill the durn thing before bringing it to me. When hunting, I have had more than one fly out of his mouth that I did not get a good grip on prior to his release. Either that, or I am going to have to get him staunch.

So I will say again, when judging, if they bring back a live bird, they are done, I don't care how sick it is.

Even if someone can convince me a dog can tell a healthy bird from a live one (seems some can smell cancer, so it could be) I don't want him picking up live birds unless it is one I just knocked down in front of him and he saw it fall. Otherwise he is not staunch.

Neil

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Post by ezzy333 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:57 pm

Neil,

I think you have it right. If the bird is not injured then it should be pointed. If dead or injured I will not correct the dog as he is doing it right. If during a trial that happens it is the other contestants that left dead birds on the course and they should be the ones faulted.

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Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:28 am

Neil, There is a way to keep birds from flying out of their mouth, shoot better. :lol: Just ribbin ya.

I actually had Buster during his bye run in MH this weekend bring back a bird. It was dead by Busters mouth. It was a bird that could not fly from his earlier brace and the judges would not let the gunners ground swipe it. so it was left on the field. I believe Buster knew it was sickly bird. The gunners said he pointed it for aminute then took steps pointed a couple times then he picked the bird up and brought it back to the course. It was warm with blood coming from its beak.
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Post by AHGSP » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:57 am

The Gov. and Military have spent enormous amounts of cash studying the canine nose and how it does what it does. In fact, there is a difference in the scents/chemicals given off by animals of any sort depending on their state of health. A live bird for instance that sheds dead cells normally gives off a chemical component that I am not about to try to spell without finding the reference material. That same bird when wounded gives off another similar, but slightly different chemical that dogs use to distinguish it as being wounded, as well as I believe, distinguishing ph levels of adrenaline. Dead, yet another.

If anyone is interested, I will try to locate the info. It was shared with me by a K9 Trainer/Handler. It is quite technical and discuss' the actual chemicals that the dog is smelling to distinguish between healthy, wounded or dead.
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Post by WildRose » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:59 am

I have no doubt but that a dog, at least some of them can smell a sick bird as being just that. Many infections in humans and other animals can be diagnosed by a particular smell coming from the body. Different skin infections can be detected and even diagnosed by the same manner. Gangrene is one very good example.

I'm like Neil. When I'm in the saddle and a dog brings back an obviously live bird, the dog has to be picked up whether you saw it take the bird out or not.

However those questionable, "still warm but obviously dead birds" that get brought back occasionally I'm not so sure about.

"Old Cold birds" to me should be a non event unless it becomes apparent the dog is doing more dead hunting than live bird finding. Then it's not necessarly a bad dog, just not what we are there to see.

As a hunter in the field, I want a dog to pick up every dead bird they find unless it is a rotten carcass because particularly with covey birds it's not at all unusual to find one down that you didn't even know was hit, and we've all seen those long fliers that appear to be very healthy which may then drop a quarter to a half mile away stone dead.

Again, field trialing is supposed to be showcasing some of the best attributes of a hunting dog, and to many of us dead bird recovery is a big part of the total picture of birddogs. CR
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