Delmar Smith methods - do you really do this?

[kalel]

I will be getting my first GSP in a few months. I am reading a lot to try and pinpoint a training method that I am comfortable with.
I just got Tarrant's book in the mail yesterday. After reading the first few chapters I found myself wondering about a few things.

1. Putting a rope on them in the first few weeks to get them used to a check cord. (Should I ask my breeder to do this?)

2. Chaining your pup up the moment you get home and then going away. You offer water every two hours until he sees you as his savior.

3. Whoa post with a pinch collar (I have heard more people using boards, etc. recently to teach "whoa").

I just felt like I was reading really old methods as I read this book. I should be getting my dvds from perfection any day now.

Now, having said this, I am training my first pointer (my retrievers were trained using Spencer's books). I know there are a lot of Delmar trained dogs out there. I just would like some opinions please.

[hubweims]

2. Chaining your pup up the moment you get home and then going away. You offer water every two hours until he sees you as his savior

i never did this. but, weims have unbelievable bonds to their owners/masters. with plenty of socialization and time spent w/pup, i think you can build the same type bond only more healthy on your mental state and heartstrings.

[WildRose]

There are certainly a lot of newer methods out but if you follow the method outlined in the Bill Tarrant Book about Delmar to the letter you can successfully train a whole lot of dogs to a very high level.

Don't be fooled by flash, splash, dash, and guys that try to coin new terms, phrases, and gizmo's. Just about any "method" you see talked about will help you successuflly train dogs but in all honesty you will become a much better trainer if you first learn how to actually train a dog without the aid of modern technology.

Even the way Rick and Ronnie Smith train today is basically nothin but Delmar's method with the addition of modern technology along with a few new twists and turns. CR

[topher40]

I use alot of what Delmar talks about in his book. One exception being the whoa post, not saying I never use it just not very often. In my opinion most dogs these days are to weak and cant take the pressure of the whoa post. I have and still will use it, but it all depends on what the individual dog can take. Delmars book IS dated yet it offers of practical, no nonsense techniques. Good luck with the new pup and good luck!

[Hasty]

I would let him just be a puppy for a while, let him have fun and he'll let you know when he's ready.

I can't see how #1 could do any harm as long as you're there to supervise and he's old enough that he can pull it around pretty easy.

#2 stinks, , of the old guard ways of training. I'll probably get flamed for suggesting anything other than the old way b/c some guys have done it their whole life and it works for them, but a lot of other guys just spend some quality time with their dogs and they're just about like velcro. It's really up to you if the chain technique sounds like a good idea or cruelty.

I used the board with one of my dogs and whoaing them next to me from a heel and then walking off. Wait until you get the perfect start dvd to decide if you like his method or a whoa post and use what seems to make more sense to you. You get the same end result. The only method of whoaing a dog that seems strange to me is the pulleys and the big ol' long rope that slings them back into place if they break. It just looks too crazy for me to fool with, kind of like a huge bird dog marionette.

[CW]

There are certainly a lot of newer methods out but if you follow the method outlined in the Bill Tarrant Book about Delmar to the letter you can successfully train a whole lot of dogs to a very high level.

Don't be fooled by flash, splash, dash, and guys that try to coin new terms, phrases, and gizmo's. Just about any "method" you see talked about will help you successuflly train dogs but in all honesty you will become a much better trainer if you first learn how to actually train a dog without the aid of modern technology.

Even the way Rick and Ronnie Smith train today is basically nothin but Delmar's method with the addition of modern technology along with a few new twists and turns. CR

Good post Wildrose. I've been using Delmars way for nearly 40 years and it still works today, maybe better than when he first came up with it. I knew him before the book but fell outta touch after the war when I resettled in California. Too many people in this day and age skip "learnin the ropes" and go straight to enforcing by using the collar, it makes for good sales but seldom better dogs.

[kninebirddog]

Delmar has changed his method on the whoa post
he nolonger uses a pinch collar on the whoa post
his new dvd he has edited it and has his own twist on his sons method of whoa post

his sons and delmars method paralell each oyhther but hey do have some differences

[My initials are GSP]

I dont even mess with any of my pups untill around 10 months old. When they are ready to be whoa broke, i do NOT use a whoa post. I lag bolt in a pully onto a tree, open barn door ect., and run the lead through it and onto the dogs flat leather sinch collar (never with barbs turned in). When the dog moves, im out front of course, and it only takes a bit of a pull to sanp the dogs head up, stopping him in the process and grunting whoa simutaneously. The taunt lead that the pully provides does away with the mistiming of the bowline knot on the chin method, and you can slowly let the dog down while commanding whoa. I have never tied leads to the pups but can see how it would work. All in all i give Delmars methods a big thumbs up. I can't take credit for this method since i learned it from a good friend of mine.

[sweetsong]

I think what the Delmar Smith method is trying to accomplish with the post and chain is to get the pup to give in to the collar and chain so that point of contact is reinforced. The method revolves around the point of contact (the neck) where all or most of the corrections will be felt from the lead, checkcord or training collar.

Terry

[Don]

Delmar is my guru but I have changed some things to suit myself. I don't chain them up as you said, I don't even use the chain gang other than to stake out a bunch of dogs without driving a lot of stakes. I don't use a pinch collar but swear by the whoa post. Nothing put's less pressure on a dog than the post, nothing is easier or more effective in my opinion. When I raised pup's, they got a short thin check cord when they opened their eyes. They wore them till the day they left me and the new owner got a new 3/8" x 20 cord to take with him and instructions on how to use it. The pup's I have now got a check cord on when I picked them up and don't go out without it, 1/4" by 16'. Strangely, I don't check cord dogs into birds anymore, I have what I think is a better way. Yet the entire basis of everything I do is from Delmar.

Delmar is the master! But I change some things to suit myself. I don't care which method you might use, you'll find things you'll change to suit yourself.

Great quotes from Delmar:
Never set your dog up to fail
Never let your dog tell you no
Pay attention to what your training

I cannot say enough for the guy!

[WildRose]

Kal, let me be clear on something since this thread has already gotten away from your original post and questions.

I dont' follow the "Delmar Smith method" nor do I follow any other "method" that anyone is selling today.

I dont' use the whoa post and with rare exception won't use a prong collar, pinch collar either.

I learned to train bird dogs the hard way, by hanging out with a couple of local hunting dog trainers fifteen to twenty years ago.

I use just about ALL the modern technology that's available from E collars to Bird launchers etc.. etc.. etc.. But on my own personal dogs they will not generally ever have anything on them except a regular collar and a check cord until they are 18-24 months old, that includes both my hunting dogs and my trial dogs. Ecollars don't train dogs, they are merely a tool and one that can EASILY be abused and do more harm than good in the hands of someone that doesn't understand the fundamentals of training and/or lacks the ability to read dogs.

I would however strongly encourage anyone brand new to training birddogs especially trying to "do it yourself" with your first dog to go to amazon.com and order "Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog" subtitled "The Delmar Smith Method", by Bill Tarrant. Order it, and read it cover to cover about three times before you start working your dog on anything besides "here" and playing fetch with a ball. Not so much for follwing it like a cook book for dog training but to get some real down to earth fundamental knowledge on the subject from one of the true masters of dog training of the 20th century.CR

[Yawallac]

Spot on CR, excellent post. I agree with every word of it.

kalel,

Every dog I own or train spends time on the chain gang. The chain gang is an integral part of my training. As far as #2 goes, I may not put a pup on a chain gang the day he arrives ...but it won't be long.

[gonehuntin']

I also think Rose's post is right on. Here's the thing though. Rose, Yowie, Don, and myself have been training dogs a looooooooooong time. We know what fits our training styles and program's and what does not. You don't. If you go right by that book, you'll produce a fine shooting dog. There's a couple thing's I don't do. I don't chain the pup. I believe that it's easier for a person who has a kennel or works a lot of dogs to do this to create a bond quickly with a dog. For the single dog owner, your lap works as well. No pinch collars here. Haven't used a pinch or prong collar in years. As far as I'm concerned, that's outdated stuff. Delmar is a great dog trainer and that book is full of golden Delmar philosophies and ideas.

[KY Grouse Hunter]

Well since we are all on the topic here, what are your prefered methods and what age do you start to whoa break a dog?

[kninebirddog]

I start with dinner..making them stand till the bowl is down on the ground
Also teacing them to stand still while I touch tem

Fun little games as pups

[gonehuntin']

What k9 said, then I don't do any really serious stuff until about 8 months.

[KY Grouse Hunter]

What other little simple things like that do you do while they are around 3 to 5 months old?

[slistoe]

Take them for walks in the field. Ecourage boldness and independance in search. Hope they find some birds.

[kalel]

This has been a great thread. Lets keep the info coming.

I think I will the the short lead thing when I get the pup, but not ask the breeder to do it for me (I won't even pick my pup from the litter until later anyway-I get the 1st pick).

Only teach here, kennel, all right, for the first 10-12 months.

Lots of happy walks in the field. Praise if he flushes birds.

Play retrieving without using "fetch" command.

Don't worry about him dropping the object at my feet (no correcting right?)

The formal stuff is fairly well explained, but the puppy stages are pretty
vague.

Craig

[Don]

When, there is no magic number. What I like is a dog that has matured and no puppy nonsence anymore. Once whoa starts, resrtictive training comes into play and I don't like restricting a pup. Age? somewhere between about 10 mos to 18 mos. Usually closer to a year.

I used the whoa post. I don't use a pinch collar or claw collar for anything. I have in the past and just could not figure out why I needed to put that much extra pressure on a dog just to get the job done a session or two sonner. The back collar on my whoa post is a choke chain and I believe a standard nylon would work as well.

The whoa post itself is only a starting point as from there I go to a grass lawn with stakes in the ground. I check cord the dog around the yard and watch to set up a stake to hook the dog on while it's moving and stop it. As soon as the dog is stopped, the check cord is flipped off the stake and re-tightened. Then the dog is given a gentle nudge which it must pull gently back against or be bumped under the chin with the check cord. I emphasise gently. It serves to useful purpose to to make a dog fail by tugging hard enought to pull it off. The beauty of the post and the stakes is that the dog is always stopped from behind reguargless of where you are. On the post itself, the dog has no option but to stop and stand in one spot. It may well not be still at first but it doesn't move until it is for just a moment and then released. One moment turns to two, two to three! The dog learns that the quicker it stands still the quicker it moves and that moving brings a gentle bump under the chin. When the bump comes, the dog pulls back away from it, hit's the cord again and must stop, it has no choice. It can't go back and it can't go forward. It can only get bumped for moving it's feet.

I never ever put my hands on a dog and move it back if it takes a few steps. I bump it with the knot on the check cord and then once the e-collar is overlayed, I nic it till it stops moving. Then leave it right where it stopped. I have never seen where it does any good at all to move a dog back physically. We humans reason that premiss out, I greatly doubt that a dog does. What I believe is that the only thing a dog knows is that when it hears the command then the next thing is a nic and the nics keep coming till all movement is stopped. Just as with other methods, the dog learns to beat the nic. Similar to beating the pinch in FF.

Once that is done, I introduce the bird as a tool for finishing out a dog. But the bird is introduced not to teach stf but rather as first a mild distraction to a dog already stopped and then as the whoa command itself. When finished, I throw a bird the dog stops; a bird flushs wild, the dog stops; a dead bird falls out of the sky, the dog stops. I do not teach a dog to stop to a gun shot. To many people out shooting that may stop your dog for you. Besides, if your dog is steady to flush and kill, there exists no reason to steady it to shot.

This has gotten windy but the whoa command is questioned by a number of people as being of little or no value, I obviously disagree.

[KY Grouse Hunter]

Good stuff. Keep it comin'.

[Don]

What other little simple things like that do you do while they are around 3 to 5 months old?

Until they quit the puppy garbage, I allow them to be the morons they are! They go for walks in all kinds of cover, they find out what water is and that it won't kill them. They discover that in the fields, where I take them, are things that try to get away from them and that it's great sport chasing those things; if it's birds, so much the better. They learn what "no" means and to come when they are called. They learn to give to a check cord, they wear it 100% of the time outdoors now. That's a lot for a moron to learn!

I think the biggest mistake that people make is setting a time table to accomplish things. People have time tables, pup's grow up. Use that first year or so to learn to read your pup. It's telling you things all the time if you'll only watch! It'll tell you when it is ready to move forward as well.

I almost forgot. That first year is for introducing the gun also. It gives you lot's of time to take your time and get it done gradually. A plus with some soft dogs.

[gonehuntin']

Think that pup of yours will ever grow into those ears Don? Good still wind and he'd be air borne!

[Don]

I don't know but if he does he's gonna be good looking. I'd hate to think they'll keep growing at the same rate as him. Might slow him down a bit to keep from stepping on them tho!

[Robjones]

What is a chain gang?

[KY Grouse Hunter]

Here is a picture I found of one.

http://www.stayk.com/images/StayK_Chain_Gang.jpg

[Robjones]

what is the purpose of a chain gang?

[WildRose]

The main purpose is to work a number of dogs more efficiently because it takes you less time between dogs vs. taking each one back to the truck, kennel etc.

The secondary benefit is training. Dogs can learn by watching other dogs do things just like humans can though not to the same degree. It also creates a great opportunity to expose young dogs to all of the excitement of birds, and the gun (though you don't want a green pup exposed to shotguns the first time this way especially if they are close to the action) and to the general routine of training in general.

If you'll read the book though I think we're confusing two things. When Delmar talked about taking a pup right off and chaining them out alone then bringing water every couple of hours, that is differenct from exposing them as described above to all of the training stuff.

One would be a whole lot better off actually READING the whole book then discussing individual points rather than getting into a general training discussion because everyone is going to throw in their own little twist or turn rather than referring to the specifics the guy is asking about. If wer'e going to do that we ought to start separate threads so it doesn't end up being very confusing. CR

[phermes1]

Regarding the check cord - I would let them get used to it as a pup. I didn't with my younger dog and we had to go through an adjustment period because she never ran with a check cord before she was almost 2 years old. She got over it fairly quickly and it only took 1 bird to make her forget it was there, but it was a little annoying and if I could've avoided it, I would have.

[gonehuntin']

Regarding the check cord - I would let them get used to it as a pup.

That's the only way I can catch em'! Each year I get older I add a foot to it!

[My initials are GSP]

Take them for walks in the field. Ecourage boldness and independance in search. Hope they find some birds.

I agree with this. Let pups be pups. Let them figure stuff out on their own. When taking them on a walk, if they start puttering around behind you and are ignoring you, keep walking. They will come. As far as whoa training goes, its as the other folks have already stated. Each dog is different. You gotta know how to read dogs. Something learned, not a gift. If it is to much pressure and pup goes down or stranges it, put him up. Not mature enough for it yet. I ruined a nice bitch once by whoa breaking her too early. She melted like butter in a skillet and i kept on her. I read Delmars book probably 3 times a year every year. I almost have it memorized, but we learn from repetition as well. Another good point is to know yourself and what kind of trainer you are capable of being. Some soft dogs need a guy who is VERY patient and can put the dog up on a frustrating day W/O any corrections. I, myself, like to train tough dogs. I know that so i get pups from studs and bitches that are known for throwing tough litters. I like to be able to put a good amount of pressure without the dog letting down. Its just who i am, and i accept it. I'm not patient enough with soft pups. Very important to know how much you can handle as a trainer.

[Yawallac]

Well since we are all on the topic here, what are your prefered methods and what age do you start to whoa break a dog?

I teach whoa AFTER the dog is steady to flush. Wierd huh? I use a table. Age is irrelevent, it's up to the dog.

what is the purpose of a chain gang?

I use the chain gang for a number of lessons. First and foremost I use it before I ever attach a checkcord. It conditions them for the checkcord. I also use it the way Charlie described to watch and build desire. I do not use it to train more dogs, I have a 6-hole on my Ranger for that.

[Don]

Must have up'd the HP on the wheel chair!

[Robjones]

How is the check cord used when dealing with the entering of the cone, the point and the flush.

[kalel]

I just finished the book yesterday, and I am going to start it again tomorrow. It really helped me change my attitude as I read after getting all of your input. I think it has already taught me that one of the main things with training a dog is patience.

The things that initially bothered me about the book were the pinch cord, and the chaining up of the new pup (which I just want to hold and play with). After learning that most of you have altered these few things made me have fewer reservations about what I was reading.


Thanks again.

Now I will start reading again.

[slistoe]

Teaching your young pup to accept being tied up on a short rope is one of the biggest favors you will ever do yourself and your dog.

[JohnGrasty]

I have to agree. I broke my pup to being on a short chain on a chain gang, and it so simplified my most recent hunting trip I couldn't believe I had made it all this time without. It really seemed to help the dog in other areas too.
John

[kalel]

I am not saying that I am against keeping them on a rope. My current dog is on a zip line (rather than locked in a kennel) while we are gone-- until we get our fencing done (he has been for 3 months).

I don't like the idea of bringing a pup home and going straight to a chain before passing go. That is how the book lays it out.

[whiteflag]

Teaching your young pup to accept being tied up on a short rope is one of the biggest favors you will ever do yourself and your dog.

I would have to agree! When we brought Whitey home, we didn't use a kennel. We kept him on a leash tied to my favourite chair. He never wined never cried! He was happy to be with someone. I know Scott never house trained him yet it was like he was in a house all along as a pup. When we go out to the farm (lots of dogs out there shepeards and labs) he is happy as heck to sit tied to anything on his four foot leash,and he is only 7 mths old. It keeps him even happier if I throw hi a toy to chew on.

[Kiki's Mom]

When taking them on a walk, if they start puttering around behind you and are ignoring you, keep walking. They will come.

This is probably the single most IMPORTANT thing you can teach your hunting dog! Ok...the next single most important thing save that precious and totally reliable "Recall"<GG>

Keep moving, even picking up your pace a tad when the pup stops to check out something (I.e horse turds, fallen apples, interesting sticks). This encourages the dog to stay moving AHEAD of you and hunting to the front FOR YOU instead of for himself.

Hunting behind the lateral dog, or the dog that likes to get behind you gets tiresome. Nip the habit in the bud right out of the chute when the puppy is still young and eager to come with you.

[Don]

I don't agree with that. When I take pups for a walk it is to let them discover things, not discourage it. They are free to do as they wish so long as they don't run off. A ridiculous assumption but, imagine your dog about three steps from a truly magnificent find and it passes a road apple. Seen them younger but never got to investigate so he does it now.

As the dog matures so does it's mind. And the mind starts to focus on other things. You'll see a time when the pup changes from being captivated by butterfly's and realizes that there are birds out there more exciting than butterfly's. If you get it around birds that is. At that point if you have a sembalence of control on the dog, the real training begins.

Let a kid be a kid and a pup be a pup! In both cases that stage goes away to soon.

[WildRose]

I have to agree whole heartedly with Don on this one. Part of the importance in "happy timing" is that there are a ton of non game things in the fields and woods that are "interesting" because of their scent etc. The dog's that have a chance to figure out all those things are non game and not as interesting as first thought early will spend far less time as adults messing with them.

There comes a point at which most dogs will just naturally lose interest in them and for those that don't later in life is when I worry about calling them off of the and moving on.

I would give the same advice as KM did for a yearling, but not for a puppy. Cr

[slistoe]

I agree with kiki that ingraining a front running behavior is important in a young dog, but I don't necessarily agree with the method. When walking with a young pup you are the one choosing where the front is, and it is possible to always choose the front to be where the young pup is. You also choose the rate of forward progression to maintain the front and if that means stopping and standing while the youngster investigates and sorts out new scents, so be it.

There will come a time in a dogs life when you will ask, and demand, that they make choices and always choose to be moving to the front, but that is not now.

[slistoe]

I am not saying that I am against keeping them on a rope. My current dog is on a zip line (rather than locked in a kennel) while we are gone-- until we get our fencing done (he has been for 3 months).

I don't like the idea of bringing a pup home and going straight to a chain before passing go. That is how the book lays it out.

There is a world of difference between accepting restraint on a short tether and being on a zip line.

The book lays it out that way for a reason - it is the way it works best. It is not before you pass go, but certainly a major part of square one.

[kninebirddog]

I willstart pups on ropes and chain gangs at 5 weeks old

Sooner they learn to give in the better

i also encourage the little walks and then checking things out at the same ages also

So there is free time to investigate and then there is resitrctedtimelearnin to give in to the collar

and allowing them to learn for themselves specially the ropes and chain gangs..it seperates the restriction from you and applies it to the lead

First time is the hardest when the fight and struggle with it but it is VERY important you stay out of that picture of the learning curve and do not "save them" while they are pitching a fit..that will be the worst thing you can do
only when they have calmed down and have given in to collarshould you go to them

[okiebirdhunter]

I agree with knine on this one... put that rascal on the chain the first chance you get.

If I would have had my pups at 6 weeks they would have been on it. It is a whole lot easier to train them at 10 months or a year if you have all this stuff out of the way.

You can either do it the way you feel or do what has worked for someone who trained champions......what works works.

John Bellah

[KY Grouse Hunter]

So I gues what you are alluding to is that, putting them on a chain when their youg teaches them not to fight a check cord or leash later on?

[okiebirdhunter]

Absolutely.

John Bellah

[kalel]

Okay,

I have decided that I am going to stop fighting this in my mind (poor little cute puppy) and just do it.

So, I need you all to tell me exactly how you would do it.
1. By himself
2. With my adult dog (70 pound golden retriever)
3. For how long and for how many days/weeks.
4. It will be a cold snowy february when I get him - any ideas (inside the garage)?


Thank you.

[Don]

Okie I disagree like heck with you but sure do like that dog in your avatar. Miller breeding?