Controlling Range

Hurtin' Albertan · Post by **Hurtin' Albertan** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:36 am

I have been taking my 7 month old Brittany out to the field to see wild pheasants this fall. I am letting her run free and she is bumping a pile of birds. Am I making a mistake in letting her run like this? She is getting out 100-150 yards on me. I don't have much control over her in the field because she is possessed with the desire to find birds. She is seeing about 10 birds per outing, about 3-4 times per week. She has only pointed a couple of these pheasants that I have been able to shoot. Am I creating a monster here by letting her run like this?

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:12 am

I wish mine could see that many birds.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:44 am

I absolutely believe wild birds are great for a pup. But I also believe they can be over done. The problem being you give up control to encourage drive. If you got a pup that has to be encouraged, you need a different pup. Wild birds keep the interest up and teach the pup where to look for them. But more importantly for me is that the pup is out getting the buggers out about cover and fences and creeks and all the other strange things it encounters out there. One of my pups is absolutely enthralled with bugs it finds. In the process of finding those bugs, it is ignoring the sage brush and the heavy cover, barrels right in. Birds also like those bugs and now and again looking for bugs leads him to birds. The birds really trip his trigger and he'll chase till they are gone. Then he'll go back to the bugs he CAN catch. At what I hope will be the right time, I will show him how to get those birds and he'll quit on the bugs.

As far as 100 to 150yds goes, that's not far. Let the pup go and follow it. Don't talk to it a lot. When you see it making a good turn give it a turn signal. Pay attention to the pup and give that signal just as the pup starts the turn. In or thru the turn is to late. No it did not respond to the command but if it hears that command enough, one day it'll be running and hear that command and turn, its called habit! For now, if you want to control your pup, use your body. If the pup is getting out to far, you stop. Even back away from it. To many times when a pup is getting it's wheels going, the handler will start yelling and going after the pup harder. That only encourages the pup to move out, not in!

BTW. I believe that the pup will likely not handle even one bird as you'll want when it's done so shooting a bird for it now will create a problem you'll want to fix later. Your not creating a monster, your unleashing it!

TGCGSPS · Post by **TGCGSPS** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:55 pm

its called and E collar haha and a check chord

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:30 pm

Am I creating a monster here by letting her run like this?

Quite possibly. I like to mix controlled bird contacts with training sessions between outings on wild birds. There is no substitution for wild birds to teach a young dog "how" to hunt. However, some restraint and teaching between those outings can be very effective. Over time the dog will hopefully blend what it has learned afield with what it has learned in more formal training.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:35 pm

I would not suggest using an e-collar on that pup yet!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:32 pm

Do not use the e-collar on the pup when in the field. That needs to be started in the yard. Sounds like you have a normal pup that is enthralled with the bird thing. So far that is good, but it may be time to start with some control work while in the yard and then gradually move it to the field.

Ezzy

tfbirddog2 · Post by **tfbirddog2** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:05 pm

I would bet on the monster if you dont put the e-collar on now. If your not hunting or training at all I guest its ok, I would never let my dogs that far doing anything just me and my 2 pennys.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:38 pm

7 mo old pup not getting out over 150 yds getting into lots of birds. I'd be quiet, stay with the dog and next summer show it how to get those birds.
Cut her down to 2 days a week, maybe one, and the other days bring her in the yard and do yard work.

Let her drag the check cord in the field and don't give any commands unless you can get the cord. For that matter let her wear the collar and the check cord; leave the transmitter at home.

The field keeps her enthusium up, the yard tames the monster. You run her on all those birds and try to control her right now, welcome the monster. You put the collar on her now before getting the yard work down, you could lessen the desire. On the other hand, you keep the desire up, get the monster in hand and next summer teach her how to get the birds under your rules, you'll have a dog. Before you can make a bird dog, you have to make a dog.

okiebirdhunter · Post by **okiebirdhunter** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:18 pm

If you have an ecollar why leave it at home? I would put it on the pup and turn it on and carry the transmitter. I wouldn't use if for commands but it's better to have the collar and not use it than to have it on and not be able to if it is needed(i.e dangerous situations and deer). If that dog has that ecollar on everytime you get it out and let it run then it will assume it is part of the "outfit" and will be less likely to be collar wise if it always wears it.

I'm just at a loss as to why people are so afraid of a pup wearing an ecollar. If he wears it and doesn't know any different, what are the cons??

John Bellah

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:53 pm

Here's why.

Hurtin' Albertan wrote: I don't have much control over her in the field because she is possessed with the desire to find birds.

This sounds to me like a dog that has not had much yard work. The collar is not going to teach this dog anything. At the risk of offending the man, he doesn't have much control in the field not because of the dog's desire to find birds but because the dog isn't far enough along in the yard work.
It's also a good bet that no collar work has been done yet, or very little. If the dog had that much desire I think he'd see it well past 150yds by now seeing as he says he doesn't have much control.

Now if he has the collar on and the transmitter with him but should not use it for commands, whats it's use in a dangerous situation? What is it, you see some situation pop up that might be con-screwed as dangerous so you shock the dog? I guess I don't get that. And how about those deer. Are you suggesting breaking off deer a 7 mo old pup that's bird crazy? I haven't seen many dogs that are bird crazy and getting into birds, that suddenly quit hunting birds because a deer shows up. More often when I've seen dogs chase deer they have gone a spell bird less and are bored. That doesn't sound like a problem there.

Contrary to what some people seem to believe, the shock collar is not the answer to all problems. The shock collar for other than punishment training requires that the dog first be trained to some level and properly introduced to the collar so it understands the reason for the shock.

When you have a problem you need to work on the problem, not run home to a shock collar. He says he doesn't have much control in the field. I'd wager a dollar to a sugar cookie he doesn't have all that much control in the yard either. We're talking about a puppy in the early stages of training.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:54 pm

Not a thing wrong with the pup wearing it as long as that is all you do with it.

Ezzy

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:53 pm

I agree 100% with Ezzy here, absolutely nothing wrong with wearing it now as long as your not using it. Collar conditioning, can start now.

JMO,
Chip

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:42 pm

There is nothing wrong with letting the dog wear the collar as long as it's turned off. What Don is more or less saying is, how many people can let a dog wear a collar and not use it? Not many. If you can control yourself, it's ok to run with a collar. If you're going to try and correct the dog, leave it at home, or leave the transmitter at home.

We've said time and time again on here that you can't just strap a collar on a pup and correct it. It doesn't work that way. You're either going to create a bolter or a blinker. Just let the pup do what it's doing and get it in the yard. Corrections are for the yard, not the field.

Hurtin' Albertan · Post by **Hurtin' Albertan** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:17 pm

For the record, I have been introducing my pup to the e-collar in the yard along with the check cord. She listens very well within the confines of a fenced in yard but in the field is a different story. From what I have learned on this forum, I still refuse to use the collar in the field but she is wearing it. I guess what everyone is saying though is that I need to perfect her in the yard so that I can control her range better in the field.

kalel · Post by **kalel** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:17 pm

I am new to this, but your problem isn't range. If your dog can point a bird, and hold it until you get there, there is no problem with 150 yard range. I may be wrong (probably am) but the thing that the dog needs help with is holding a point. I am not talking about whoa training either. That can come later in the yard. I mean holding a point until you get there.

From what I understand, the best way to teach this is with a bird launcher and with pigeons. As soon as your dog gets the scent, you launch the bird. After a few times of this, they begin holding the point because they thing that if they take one more step, the bird will fly.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:36 pm

On the last day of Sharptail season I had the brother to your pup out. We went to a field where a week earlier he had pointed 3 coveys of Huns, of which we shot 4 birds. Unfortunately this evening there were no birds there, but that didn't faze him. In the paling light of the sunset I watched as he cut 300 yards to the south in the stubble, working into the wind, then ran crosswind down the length of the short field. As he crossed out over the summerfallow my wife and I tracked him by the puffs of dust flying from the end of his check cord, at times approaching 500 yards out. It was a wonderful way to end the season standing, watching and waiting for this youngster as he displayed his drive, enthusiasm and beginnings of bird savvy.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:02 am

I mean holding a point until you get there. From what I understand, the best way to teach this is with a bird launcher and with pigeons.

Nah, since he's got them readily available, the best thing is to just keep letting pup work those real birds.

Not sure why so many believe, or have been taught to believe, that these dogs need to be trained to point and hold point. I don't believe it's due to the sorry abilities of our modern pointing breeds - I think it's more related to the unfortunate difficulty many have in getting access to wild birds nowadays. Hats off to the dedicated folks that train just as mentioned above, not knowing when the day will come their dog will get a crack at the real thing, but let's not mistake it as the ideal.

I must not have clue what I'm doing (probably irrepairable damage!!). I've got a nearly 11mo pup that's never seen the end of a check cord and I think he's been on a leash only a couple times to drag me into the vet or something! He's worn a tracking collar every time in the field but never an e-collar. I go for the raised by wolves method!!

Hurtin' Albertan · Post by **Hurtin' Albertan** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:30 am

Good to hear that some of you think there is a chance that if I just leave my pup alone, she will begin to point and hold on her own. I have seen her do it so I know that she can. I think I might take the approach of letting her teach me how to hunt!

kalel · Post by **kalel** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:04 pm

I keep hearing that wild birds will eventually "train" the pup to hold a bird. This might be so of some dogs, but there are also dogs out there that need to be trained in a controlled situation. My father-in-law has a "well breed" (read expensive) small munster from South Dakota that has seen a lot of wild birds for over 5 years now, and will not hold a point for more than a few seconds.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:44 pm

I keep hearing that wild birds will eventually "train" the pup to hold a bird. This might be so of some dogs, but there are also dogs out there that need to be trained in a controlled situation. My father-in-law has a "well breed" (read expensive) small munster from South Dakota that has seen a lot of wild birds for over 5 years now, and will not hold a point for more than a few seconds.

Sounds like he paid too much!!

I don't know much about munsters or their pointing abilities, but I'd bet the price of a top bred GSP ($19.99 or 4 monthly installments of $5), that your father in law has been shooting birds over the dog whether it pointed them staunchly or not - it can make a huge difference in having the dog stand it's birds. If the dog doesn't point 'em, don't shoot 'em.

IME, dogs that have had to be trained to point are really just indicating game is present, not really pointing in the traditional sense...and I suppose that'd work just fine if the dog will cover some ground, find some birds and just stand there like it has been trained. I suck as a trainer so I need to have 'em point because their genes tell 'em too...

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:22 am

Doug, you are one of the very lucky ones, you have the access to wild birds, plus you have some great pedigrees that will put a dog out there on point:) We are not so lucky, and have to attempt to get it done on pigeons and pen raised quail. I just had a DK bitch in here that I literally had to train to point, she had more prey drive than point:( I pretty much "finally" just really Whoa broke the heck outa her and stopped her on scent on pigeons. She did not look like much, but when she was put on quail her style returned and she started hitting her points. Training this on pigeons is better because it may take some pressure, then when they are understanding what you want of them, the quail will bring the excitement back. This is a last resort, as we will make every attempt to bring out the natural point in dogs, and it is there in most dogs. We do not have the time or wild birds to get the job done on our personal dogs, so the precious time that we are able to get out west and hunt we want that dog understanding what he is suppossed to do. Can't afford to let the dog chase the birds outa the country, when we finally find 'em:)

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:58 pm

Actually Brenda I don't think Doug is all that lucky. Wild birds are really great for a dog but if you rely on wild birds to train a dog, you'll be a long time waiting. Wild birds are not interested in teaching your dog anything, they just leave and the dog is left to figure it out on it's own. I don't know any trainer that doesn't love wild birds but I also don't know any that trains only on wild birds; they can't set up the situation!

I think Doug uses Dan Hoke and guess what. Where Dan lives there is not an abundance of wild birds. I suspect that Dan does most his training on liberated birds or pigeons. The truth about wild birds is that they are to unpredictable to train with! But boy do they start and finish a dog!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:13 pm

Wild birds are really great for a dog but if you rely on wild birds to train a dog, you'll be a long time waiting. Wild birds are not interested in teaching your dog anything, they just leave and the dog is left to figure it out on it's own. I don't know any trainer that doesn't love wild birds but I also don't know any that trains only on wild birds; they can't set up the situation!

Here's an excerpt from this week's American Field - the write up of this years Idaho State Shooting Dog Championship:

"This year's champion, Mauck's Loowit, and runner-up, Idaho's Lucky Lady, are personal class hunting dogs for their owners. Both dogs were trained and broke hunting wild chukar, pheasants, Hungarian partridge and valley quail. Both owners bred and raised their dogs. Field trialers in the Northwest are fortunate to have the opportunity and available grounds to train and hunt their dogs entirely on wild birds. As most in this sport know this is not the case any longer in many parts of the country."

Those two trainers must not have the internet or they'd have known it's impossible to train a dog that way!! I'll break the news to 'em next week when we go hunting. :roll:

Got two nice pictures from Dan Hoke today working dogs hunting chukars:

I use Dan because he's an awesome, awesome, trainer...I am not, I know I'm not, and I'm not too proud to admit it. At the same time, do I need to use him to have some nice hunting dogs that'll find birds, point them instinctively, let me flush them then retrieve them if I manage to hit one?? Absolutely not, and unless I'm missing the boat, that's the level to which most folks on this board are interested in having their dogs perform. If you live in area with plenty of birds like the originator of this thread mentioned he does, you don't need a bunch of fancy training equipment and birds...just time and committment to getting your dog out. Combine the time and energy with the desire to have a broke, wild bird dog and you just might have the next Idaho St. Champion.

Bird dogs are a hobby, I try hard to keep my discussions of them fun and lighthearted but I'm tiring of being beat up for living in a place that allows me to train in the fashion I do. Just like other folks recommending their own methods, if mine didn't work, I wouldn't recommend them. I try to be respectful, understanding, and accepting to those that have to do things differently while at the same time encouraging the other unlucky folks with the misfortune to live in areas with ready access to wild birds to stay the course, believe in their dogs and their natural abilities.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:36 pm

Nobody is beating you up because of where you live Doug, most probably envy you. But if you really think Dan's training is done on wild birds, your mistaken. It would take him to long to train a dog! He is a wonderful trainer and one of only three i recommend to anyone.

Here's the truth tho, you can't train a dog on wild birds only in anything remotely resembling a reasonable amount of time even it you did have the birds. Problem is the birds don't co-operate. I suggest you sent Dan a dog and tell him that you want it on wild birds only to train it. I doubt you'll like the bill for it! Without pigeons and/or liberated game birds, dog training becomes extremely labor intensive.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:54 pm

DGFavor wrote:
I use Dan because he's an awesome, awesome, trainer...I am not, I know I'm not, and I'm not too proud to admit it.

I might suggest one more thing. Before spreading your ideas on training as the gospel, try training one dog using the methods you champion.

It is distastefull to take your position on methods you now seem to have never used yourself! Ya see Doug. it has nothing to do with where you live!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:06 pm

Here's the truth tho, you can't train a dog on wild birds only in anything remotely resembling a reasonable amount of time even it you did have the birds.

How in the world can you say something like this?? It's absolutely not correct!! I guess I should ask what a reasonable amount of time is - my buddy Rich has two pointers that have never, ever seen a pen bird (except at a field trial) trained absolutely, entirely on wild birds. One has won two AF championships by the ripe old age of 2 1/2 and the other has been darn close - I know, I know, that's a long time to wait but he was patient!

When you say things like, "Here's the truth tho..." you're implying that all the other statements mentioned in the thread are false. That's BS, that's beating on folks that don't agree with your POV, that's not being respectful and understanding of folks with different ideas from your own and I'm tired of it.

I might suggest one more thing. Before spreading your ideas on training as the gospel, try training one dog using the methods you champion.

How about this one? Call Dan and ask who trained him and how it was done? You can take your foot out of your mouth anytime....well, probably not.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:20 pm

You guys are making me home sick!!!!!!

Here's Rocky!!!!!!!!

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:28 pm

I guess we'll stop this now, with your dog standing with style and no intensity. What the dog is standing is anybody's guess. Doesn't matter who trained the dog. You sir are pushing elitism! And you are suggesting a program that cannot work except for people with an excess amount of time and or money to have someone else work their dogs. That is not what I thought this was about! Most people are not of your means, either financially or land/bird wise. Most people have to train with what is available. I sir, have access to the land you have and wild birds. I would never consider training only on wild birds. I'd also bet a dollar to a sugar cookie that Dan doesn't base his training on wild birds alone.

Life for most people is not as you perceive it. You seem to be privileged! Just how far is it down your nose?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:30 pm

You guys are making me home sick!!!!!!

Hey Keith! Not missing much up here this year - sounds like Texas is the place to be!! Considering dragging my lying, non-training buns down that way this winter for a go at some bobs.

Hurtin' Albertan · Post by **Hurtin' Albertan** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:34 pm

Hail to the Wild Bird!!!

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:53 pm

I was in WA - for 10 days in October this year. I never worked so hard for so little birds - since the chukar crashed in the early 80s!!!!

Bad news here is - that the cover is so thick and tall - dogs are having a hard time finding birds.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:55 pm

Don,

This a board that allows people to express their ideas and experiences. We have all listened to yours and we allwould like to listen to Dougs. If for some reason you don't agree with someone then just say you don't agree and let it go. Persoanal insults are not wanted, needed or allowed. They do nothing but lower the op[inion everyone has of you.

At this time I will not lock this thread as there are other people still posting their info but if anymore personal shots are taken at a fellow member then there will be actions taken.

Ezzy
Moderator

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:06 pm

Ez, I'm too blame too and my apologies for getting sidetracked. I've got my eye on the high road and anxious to take it.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:09 pm

Hey Doug. I don't agree with you. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm drunk!

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:19 pm

Thank you Doug. Apoligy is accepted and forgotten. Keep on posting so we can all learn how dogs were and still are trained where the spaces are large and the birds are plentiful. I too have a couple of dogs that have never had a bird planted for them though what we do hunt are normally liberated birds that have been on their own for a while. Wish we had the wild birds that you do. My 2 year old bitch is getting the idea of staying steady on the flush so it is getting time to start working on that a little. She does a great job of finding birds and is handling them pretty well. Had a few runners today and she is creeping with them but a little slow to pin them down. I'm urging her to speed it up and will see if it gets through to her.

Ezzy

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:57 am

Hey Don, hows the hangover?

The bottom line is Wild Birds are great when you have the time and opportunity and wide open country to train that way. I have never had that good fortune up here in the Norht East in the Grouse woods.

Second, nothing starts of finishes a dog like wild birds, I think all agree with that.

Third, There are very limited controlled situations on wild birds. One most of the time is letting the dog train itself.

Fourth, Controlled bird planting and training drills are invaluable and most efficeint.

Cheers,
I need to go visit a nice looking waitress.

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