Grant ---Forced Fetch

[ab576]

I don't agree totally with this method but here is the best article I can find. There are many if you search. FFing is done by retriever trainers, obedience trainers, and yes in service dog training. It instills in the dog that there is no choice. When the command fetch is used he must fetch whatever needs to be fetched. Saw your post on the 'fuge.

http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/articles.html

[grant]

You rock! Thanks!

[ab576]

Force Breaking
The controversial training method explained by Andy Kohly



Probably no other aspect of gun dog training invokes more debate than force breaking. As many professional trainers view force breaking as a valuable tool as do those who consider it an outright act of cruelty. Despite all the controversy, I still receive many requests for information on force breaking. While I do not intend for this article to be viewed as a “how to” guide I do want to share basic premise behind force breaking.

HISTORY OF FORCE BREAKING
From all I’ve been able to find, force breaking came to be sometime during the 1800’s and was developed by gun dog trainers of that era as a cure for everything from hardmouth, eating birds to ensuring retrieval to hand. By and large, force breaking has retained it’s original intent and is still used for the very purposes for which it was designed today.

METHODOLOGY OF FORCE BREAKING

The force breaking process begins with a wooden dowel or piece of PVC approximately 2” in diameter and 6” long. The dog is placed on a table, tailgate or other platform not only to get the dog to a comfortable height for the trainer but also to get the dog out of his element and cause him to focus more. The command fetch (or whatever your command happens to be) is given and a stimulus is applied while the “buc” is inserted into the dogs mouth. The stimulus is then halted at the moment the dog has the “buc; in place in his mouth and the dog is praised profusely. This is repeated for several iterations until the dog willing picks up the “buc” and holds it until told to drop or release. If the dog spits out or drops the “buc” before being given the command to do so, stimulus is again applied until the dog has the “buc” resting securely in his mouth.

THE STIMULUS

Various forms of stimuli have been used and each are touted by their practitioners as the best but because I have seen all of these forms of stimuli work equally well, I believe one is just as good as the other. These forms include the:

Toe Hitch
Ear Pinch
Electronic Collars

The toe hitch is accomplished by using a small piece of cord, which is secured to a dog’s front paw. The cord tied to the foreleg just above the paw, and is wound between two toes and the remaining end of the cord is dropped between the two toes. Upon the command Fetch, the tail end of the cord is pulled to the point that the dog yelps and the “buc” is inserted into his mouth and the pressure on the toes is released. For a better idea of how the toe hitch is accomplished experiment on yourself. Place a pencil between your first and second fingers at the point at which they join the hand. Squeeze the two fingers together and you’ll gain a clear understanding of what your dog experiences.

The ear pinch seems almost to need little explanation however for it to be effective, use a sturdy 1” leather collar and ensure it is snug on the dogs’ neck. Slide your hand under the collar and pinch the ear against the collar or between the thumb and forefinger. The purpose of the collar is to provide a good handle or a solid point at which to apply pressure to the ear. The ear pinch follows the same methodology as the toe hitch, which means the command is given, pressure is applied, dog accepts “buc” and then pressure is released. More draconian variants of this method do exist and involve the use of hand tools but hopefully no one reading this is interested in employing them.

The electronic collar is sometimes used for force breaking and works by providing stimulus in the same manner as those listed previously.

THE TRAINING OBJECTIVE

The objective behind force breaking is to teach pup that once given the command “Fetch” he must pick up and hold an object in order to cease the stimulus. If during the training session pup drops the “buc” stimulus is immediately applied until the dog has either picked up the “buc” himself or at least allowed it to be inserted into his mouth once again. Once force breaking has been done properly, if the dog ever shows signs of mouth problems in the field, often times all that is required is to tap the toe or ear and the dog will remember the lessons learned.

As for how long this process takes or how many sessions are required, there is no set, textbook answer since each dog is different and learns at it’s own pace it could take from hardly any time at al, to a long, arduous and painful process.

While I agree that force breaking is effective and a good tool for addressing mouth problems, I happen to disagree with those who believe that each and every dog out there should be force broken. I shudder to think of how many good dogs may have been ruined by being force broken when they really didn’t need it. A case in point would be a Springer owned by a friend of mine who attempted the process on his own and with little information or experience. The end result was a dog that went from being a fair retriever to not retrieving at all and a dog who became visibly frightened at the mere sight of a “buc”.

If you believe force breaking is appropriate for your situation but have never attempted it, the best advice I could give would be to attend a club seminar in which folks experienced in force breaking are present or seek the wisdom of a professional. Think of it this way. Would you feel comfortable flying in an aircraft in which the pilot has no training or experience in flying what so ever????

I thought not……

Andy Kohly is Gundog Editor and Section Leader of Arizona Outdoorsman Magazine

[WildRose]

Great article AB. CR

[crow]

I went to a training day by tri tronics once sand I got a tape of force break and it is awesome i will have to look for the tape and give you the name if you want it grant

[grant]

Sure! =)

[Griz]

You might try this site as well. Steve Wagle has a very good (read easy to follow, pretty easy to apply) force fetch section.

http://www.thecheckcord.com/

[snips]

Grant, I wrote an artiicle several yrs ago on FF with the ear-pinch method, it was in several publications. I could send it to you or fax it if you have a way of putting it on. If not, don`t bother with it. Also an article I wrote about training from the rear of the dog, as in Whoa training to checkcording, to e-collar.

[grant]

That would be great brenda! I sent my fax # to you email.....

[Texrab]

Great article Snips. I've got one question for Brenda. Is it o.k. to use a frozen quail in the frozen bird part? I have plenty of those to use but do not have any frozen pigeons. Do you recommend using quail or pigeons to shoot or does it matter? Thanks for your time.

[Addict]

Grant,

Another good method to FF is using Evan Grahams Smart Fetch method. He goes into great depth on how to read your dog while doing this and when it's time to progress through training. You learn how much pressure it takes for your individual dog by his body language. Very descriptive. I wish I would have found this method out before FFing my lab. I would have done a better job.

Addict

[snips]

Either can be used on the table, but I prefer a quail. When it is time to shoot birds I prefer quail, I think dogs prefer to have them in their mouth. Also we have been having a interesting discussion on FF over on UplandBirdDog, and there are some updates I posted to how it can be done a little quicker. I wrote that article several yrs ago.

[Mtnspaniel]

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/index.html
Here is another link to Force fetching as well as a few other things. I have FF several springers, one GSP and one GWP, using the methods Dobbs outlines in the library and the Tri Tronics hold and fetch videos. With a few modifications over the years, like using a series of nicks when transitioning to the collar, rather than constant stimulation. I also finish off with a combination of birds( pheasants, chukar,quail, pigeons,ducks), frozen dead and finally alive just to finish off the dogs.

[Texrab]

Brenda where can I find your updates?

[snips]

There is a recent thread on UplandBirdDog.com about FF. It starts about a positive method of fetch and ended up a pretty good discussion of methods.

[Wagonmaster]

For what it is worth, this is one piece of training I have done by a pro. I have done it myself. However, my reason for having it done by someone else is that the dog then does not associate the training with me. Have seen dogs trained to force fetch by one person, and handled by another, handle completely differently for the two trainers. In these instances, the dogs are much more dependent on the handler who did the force breaking, and sometimes are reluctant to run for them at all. They are looking for the next obedience instruction, and may be fearful of not complying. In addition, it is easy to make mistakes, not the least of which is not applying enough force, consistently, which then draws the task out, making it harder ultimately on the dog.

Works better to have it done by another set of hands.

[Ryan]

I am still baffled with forced fetch. Most the dogs I have seen that wont fetch the owner never played ball with them while they were a pup. Since pups I have always thrown a ball and let the dog bring it back to me. After a while just upgrade to birds has always worked no force needed.

[Ayres]

Ryan,

When you're out playing ball with a dog does it ever pick up the ball and want to play tag instead? (Takes the ball, gets near you and then runs around you in circles trying to get you to chase him.)

That is the type of behavior that absolutely can NOT be crossed over into the fetch command. A retrieve for most competition purposes must be directly to hand. That is just one reason why many people use the force fetch method to train retrieving. It's ok to have fun with a ball, I don't know a person who doesn't play with their dogs like that, but when it comes to a commanded fetch the dog better know what it's supposed to do and then do it.

If every dog you've come across has just been a natural retriever (and they do exist) then you're just one lucky person! I don't think that's the norm though.

[ezzy333]

The continental breeds are all natural retrievers or at least are suppose to be. Ive trained many many dogs, mostly Brits, but all of the other breeds too and have had one dog that I had trouble with getting it to retrieve.

I will admit there is a difference between what we like to see in competion compared to just everyday practical retrieving in the field. But because of the natural desire to retrieve I never work on retrieving till the dog is pointing and somewhat steady on that point. It is a safety factor to work on the pointing first, since a major incentive for a pup to breack point is to catch the bird and retrieve it.

With a pointer or setter it normally isn't quite as important since the retrieving is not quite as strong.

Probably few dogs need to be FF but it is one of the better ways to insure the dog will do it on command and do it directly and correctly for competion. Its a decission you have to make but I don't think it should just be done on every dog as routine training.

Ezzy

[Ayres]

The continental breeds are all natural retrievers or at least are suppose to be. Ive trained many many dogs, mostly Brits, but all of the other breeds too and have had one dog that I had trouble with getting it to retrieve.

I will admit there is a difference between what we like to see in competion compared to just everyday practical retrieving in the field. But because of the natural desire to retrieve I never work on retrieving till the dog is pointing and somewhat steady on that point. It is a safety factor to work on the pointing first, since a major incentive for a pup to breack point is to catch the bird and retrieve it.

With a pointer or setter it normally isn't quite as important since the retrieving is not quite as strong.

Probably few dogs need to be FF but it is one of the better ways to insure the dog will do it on command and do it directly and correctly for competion. Its a decission you have to make but I don't think it should just be done on every dog as routine training.

Ezzy

I couldn't agree more on every point. ('cept when I said "natural retrievers" I only meant that they just do it out of instinct without any training or praise whatsoever, kind of like how they point. I do agree that most breeds have been developed to retrieve as well as other breed-specific hunting tasks but the retrieving part usually takes some encouragement and training to get it done right.)

To FF or to not FF is a decision that must be made on a per-dog basis, depending on what the dog does instinctually and what it will be required to do by the handler. If you have a dog that will retrieve and come back to hand every time then by all means don't even think of FF. If you have a dog that would rather play "betcha can't catch me!" then think hard about FF.

[Greg Jennings]

If you have a dog that would rather play "betcha can't catch me!" then think hard about FF.

I tend to think that this is a case of the "Here" command not being consistently enforced.

Best,

[Ayres]

Greg, do you give two commands on a retrieve? "Fetch" followed by "here?"

I just say "fetch" and expect my dog to go get the object and bring it back to me. I say "here" when he's away from me and I want to call him back in to me. When I say "here" it is consistently enforced, so that's not the case at all. I think it's rather a case of that my dog likes to play, much like a lot of other dogs, and will from time to time see what he can get away with before complying with a command.

Because of that, I went with the FF training. I needed some way of enforcing the fetch command and I didn't want the enforcement associated with birds at all. Everything with birds is supposed to be fun. He had to learn the fetch command and have it enforced without being on birds for awhile. (And, yes, he was on birds prior to FF training and was pointing and holding very well.)

Whatever the case may be, I just don't see all the fuss over force fetch training. If done properly it's no more stressful than being corrected with an e-collar on any other training activity. The result is a dog that absolutely knows what the "fetch" command means and one that will consistently perform a perfect retrieve to hand. It is not needed on absolutely every dog but it shouldn't get a bad stigma either.

[Ryan]

Ryan,

When you're out playing ball with a dog does it ever pick up the ball and want to play tag instead? (Takes the ball, gets near you and then runs around you in circles trying to get you to chase him.)

That is the type of behavior that absolutely can NOT be crossed over into the fetch command. A retrieve for most competition purposes must be directly to hand. That is just one reason why many people use the force fetch method to train retrieving. It's ok to have fun with a ball, I don't know a person who doesn't play with their dogs like that, but when it comes to a commanded fetch the dog better know what it's supposed to do and then do it.

If every dog you've come across has just been a natural retriever (and they do exist) then you're just one lucky person! I don't think that's the norm though.

Of course they do but i just attach come cotton line to the collar and slowly pull them in by 12 weeks they are brining the ball to me. No need for forced fetch just start early.

[Texrab]

I am force fetching my dog for two reasons. One he does like to play keep away which I know can be fixed with a here command but alot of times he will retrieve and when he doesn't want to retrieve any more he will take whatever and drop it across the yard from my location. He will aways retrieve up but will not always hold on to it until he gets back to me. The second reason is because he will retrieve dead but will not bring back things that are alive and crippled. He wants to point the birds. I do not have to worry about my dog catching birds because he will point until the bird moves or I catch up with him. If the bird flys off then he will chase (I still need to work on his steady).

[snips]

Tex, I like to have a dog good and steady before putting the FF training in place. Makes it easier to re-steady them after telling them to retrieve when finishing up the FF training.

[Kurzhaar]

Tex, I like to have a dog good and steady before putting the FF training in place. Makes it easier to re-steady them after telling them to retrieve when finishing up the FF training.

Snips, I am just the opposite I use the retrieve as a reward when teaching a dog steadiness.

Jim

[QCBirddogs]

Ryan,

The point that was misssed here is this.....

Yes you are correct in saying many dogs will retrieve on their own, especially if you play the game as a young dog, BUT!.....

On a clean kill you will most likey get the bird back, if you practice with a dead bird in your play time. If you make a soup bird out of the next kill, the dog will most likely do one of two things....Eat it or spit it out. Now you have a problem!

In the competition aspects, I would FF everydog, barring one or two acceptions to the rule.....

When you have the biggest stake, test or whatever won and it comes down to the last retrieve, you can darn sure count on something coming up to take the dogs attention away from getting that bird to you! IT's just a little insurace plan IMHO.

I put a lot of weight in the retriev when I judge......even though the way we do it in my choice of trials is beyond rediculous. I will change the order of my placements or with hold placements if it isn't done right!

I judged NSTRA quite a bit.....there was a man who claimed he never missed a bird in his trial career! MEaning...no matter what his dog would never come back without something...dead or alive! ....Good bad or indifferent, he won many times! In fact the dog would also put the bird in his vest as well!!!!

Phil
REO

[snips]

I will shoot a few birds for a dog that I have broke, it is somewhat of a reward, but when I FF a dog I want the steadyness training to be done. I think letting a dog get the bird IS the ultimate reward but he will get it only when I say, not just for holding a bird steady. If he is allowed to get the bird simply because he pointed and held he thinks he can have every one. I let him have the birds I tell him he can have.

[Margaret]

Retrieving is about cooperation. The pup or dog wanting to bring and share what it has found. Possibly related to bringing food
back to the litter.

I build on this, and as the pup ages and and improves I expect more from it, set up more difficult practise situations. FF can be introduced for wilful disobedience, practise makes perfect but I don't overdo that either.

I mostly use training dummies but advance to thawed clean birds.
Old, smelly, blood stained birds from the freezer will indeed cause
your dog to mishandle game, but clean fresh frozen birds are an excellent training aid used sparingly.

I encourage and build on my dogs cooperativeness in the retrieve - I work backwards to many people I read here, it works for me

Marg

[Casper]

If I am not mistaken FFing started with retirievers. They wanted their dog(s) to go and get the bird and in the event another bird was shot that the dog would mark the last fallen bird and continue in with the bird in its mouth. This can also work well for pointing dogs to mark multiple birds down. It takes FFing to get the job done so your dog wont give up the dead birds to find new ones.

FFing basicly makes a reliable reteiver that is why many have changed the term to
trained retreive
conditioned retreive
and a whole buch of others that I just had a brain fart on

[Greg Jennings]

Greg, do you give two commands on a retrieve? "Fetch" followed by "here?".

Mostly, he says staunch till I release him. He then goes straight to where he marked the bird, hunts till he finds it, picks up the bird, returns straight to me, jumps his front feet up on my stomach and hold the bird till I gently take it from his mouth.

I taught him that by layering several foundation commands. Recall is definitely one of them.

If he had hated holding a bird in his mouth or some other things, yes, I would have sought help from a pro and perhaps FF would have been the answer.

Best,

[Ayres]

Ah, I got ya.

I thought for awhile there that you were training to use two commands on a single fetch. My mistake.

[Kevin]

returns straight to me, jumps his front feet up on my stomach and hold the bird

You must catch heck from your wife about the muddy paw prints :director:

[Greg Jennings]

returns straight to me, jumps his front feet up on my stomach and hold the bird

You must catch heck from your wife about the muddy paw prints :director:

Not a problem. I learned long ago to wash my own hunting/outdoors clothes. Saves on aggravation.

Best,

[Texrab]

I have hit a wall in my force fetching. My dog was doing great up until the point I introduced the ear pinch. Now he looks away from me while force fetch training. I make him pay attention to me and then try and tell him to fetch with the ear pinch. I am afraid I will pinch too hard because he does not want to open his mouth. After two days of this I went back to the begining and he would fetch, hold and give. Next I had him him walking at heal and when I said fetch he would grab it and walk with it until I commanded give. Now I am back to force for a second time and he is back to try and ignore. I am training on the ground and not on a table so I do not know if this would help or not. Any tips or pointers on working through this?

[snips]

If he is not grabbing it when you pinch his ear, then you are not pinching hard enough. A good thumb nail helps. Reach up inside the ear some and use the same general place each time. You can sit in a chair and do this part, just have him right in front of you. Hold the dumbell right at his teeth. Sometimes when I am getting them to figure out what I want, I pinch until they are really feeling some discomfort, as in trying to twist away, then I put my thumb in their mouth prying it open enough to slide the dumbell in and release the pain. This is telling them what stops the pain. Then praise them as they are holding it, this is telling them this is what you want.

[Ayres]

To go along with what Brenda said..

If the dog isn't opening its mouth at the ear pinch, first grab its muzzle from the top and forcefully open its mouth by pressing the dewlap into the upper teeth. When the mouth is open, go ahead and put the object in, stop pressing the dewlap into the upper teeth, and as you let the dog close its mouth on the object make sure that no dewlap gets caught between the teeth and the object lest the dog get a pinch for complying with what you want it to do (which would be a bad thing).

Once that is working, move to the ear pinch to get the dog to open its mouth on its own. A useful tip is to wrap a couple fingers around the dogs collar to keep it in place while keeping your thumb and index finger free up by the dogs ear for the pinch. Use a thumbnail if you have to, but I find that just pressing the tip of your thumb onto the side of the knuckle of your index finger works pretty good and won't result in a laceration of any kind (thus, the pain will be gone as soon as you release your pinch).

Of course, I'm 6'2" and have pretty large hands so I can get ahold of the collar and pinch with just one hand. It shouldn't be too hard to do regardless, though, since the collar is so close to the ear anyway, and it works to keep the dog positioned where you need it and to enforce the command, leaving your off hand free to hold or put in the object.

[grant]

If he is not grabbing it when you pinch his ear, then you are not pinching hard enough. A good thumb nail helps. Reach up inside the ear some and use the same general place each time. You can sit in a chair and do this part, just have him right in front of you. Hold the dumbell right at his teeth. Sometimes when I am getting them to figure out what I want, I pinch until they are really feeling some discomfort, as in trying to twist away, then I put my thumb in their mouth prying it open enough to slide the dumbell in and release the pain. This is telling them what stops the pain. Then praise them as they are holding it, this is telling them this is what you want.

I agree with Brenda, Tex. Give it more time. When it clicks in their mind, it goes pretty smooth. The first few days (or weeks) are the hardest part. Bell's always picked up new things real fast, and my initial FFing with her took about 3 days to see progress...

I can say that I a true believer in FF after I saw what it did for Bell. FWIW, I used Brenda's method.

Grant

[Margaret]

Once again I am gobstopped by what I read with regards
FF.

Texrab, it sounds like your dog is doing just FINE until you start pinching it's ear and then it becomes confused and can't even do what it was happy to do, retrieve, before.

Carry on without the pain confusing your dog and you will end up with a happy reliable retriever. All you need to do is as your dog improves set him harder tasks to achieve.

[snips]

Tex, I don`t know where you are in Tn, but you are welcome to come down and watch a few dogs being done. Sometimes it helps to see someone else do it.

[Greg Jennings]

Once again I am gobstopped by what I read with regards
FF.

You're at a loss to understand because you're reasoning from a different set of assumptions than the people that are discussing FF.

For example, some of the people compete their dogs in formats that are so demanding on the retrieve that the dog adjusting the bird in its mouth (without setting the bird down) would mean automatic DQ.

None of us think FF-ing a dog is fun.

Best,

[Margaret]

Sorry Greg. I just didn't read where the chap was going to be competing in retrieving trials.

Getting old and eyesight failing

Marg