Question about force fetch

Pojack · Post by **Pojack** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:39 pm

I started force breaking my dog tonight after rubbing him out on the table for a couple of days. I did the toe hitch and by the 3rd time, he associated putting the buck in his mouth with stopping the pain on his toes. The problem is that he seems to really be biting down hard on the buck. How do i stop my dog from being hard mouthed? Is there something I should be doing now to prevent him from biting down so hard and agressively? Volume 2 of the Delmar Smith video (teaching dog to retrieve) didn't explain what to do with a hard mouthed dog.

Don · Post by **Don** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:27 pm

I have noticed that a number of dogs do that but they also quit . He's not hard mouth, he's reacting to the pain. I discovered that the dogs that did do that I had not properly taught to take the buck and hold it before applying pain. Nor had I properly taught them to shut off the pain. There's a down side to being self taught! That is not having someone right there to help you through it the first few time's.

Did you start by teaching him to hold the object? Also are you getting the object into his mouth right away or are you making him reach for it from the start? The first several times it is best, IMO, to stick the object in the dogs mouth immediately as the mouth opens. That teaches him how to shut off the pain. The idea is to teach the dog how to stop the pain and to beat the pain. If your hearing your dog cry, it's my opinion your timing is way off. Once the dog learns that the pain stops immediately when the object is in it's mouth, it grabs the object.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:55 pm

I had the same question as Don. You didn't mention teaching the dog to "hold" first?

Pojack · Post by **Pojack** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:11 am

I let him hold it in his mouth first several times for a minute or two each prior to using the toe hitch. Maybe that wasn't long enough? He has no problem holding things in his mouth and didn't try to spit it out any of the times.
The problem I have with a lot of these instructional videos is that they don't go into detail about how long you should do certain things and how long things usually take before the dog "gets it". I know every dog is different, but it'd be nice to know a time frame. Should I expect to do the toe hitch for a week? A month? 3 months?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:39 am

That's why most people should really send their dog out for force breaking; very few people understand the concept, the timing, and the pressure involved.

I personally hate the toe hitch. I use the ear to begin, then go to the stick and collar. Actually, I skip the stick now with the variable intensity collars.

He's not really hard mouthed. Many times a reaction like this is a pressure reaction to the pressure you're putting on him and the pain. It's fairly normal but I don't let them get away with it. I'll give them a good rap under the jaw and tell them "No, Hold" when they start working those jaws.

Did you pinch his jowls against his canines first to teach "fetch"? Remember, it's a three command sequence, "Fetch,", "Hold", "Drop".

Try putting a light leather glove on, say fetch, tilt your hand to the side, and have him hold your gloved hand. If he starts to bite too hard, verbally yell "Ouch"!. That also can work.

I don't think you have a problem, you're just undertaking the most difficult aspect of training a dog; the force.

kiddcline · Post by **kiddcline** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:32 am

gonehuntin' wrote: Try putting a light leather glove on, say fetch, tilt your hand to the side, and have him hold your gloved hand. If he starts to bite too hard, verbally yell "Ouch"!. That also can work.

I agree with the gloved hand. This helps you judge how hard the dog is actually biting. make sure you leave your hand in the dogs mouth until he stops fighting you. repeat the command "hold" as he calmly holds your hand in his mouth.

I will also leave the object in the dogs mouth until it drops it, no matter how long it takes, and then apply the ear pinch. This starts the whole process.

Gonehuntin', what is the stick method after the ear pinch?

Goosehunterdog · Post by **Goosehunterdog** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:10 am

Stick Fetch is using a heeling stick as a distraction while doing walking fetch etc..

I would recommend SmartFetch Book Or DVD....It will walk you right through the entire Hold & FF process....

kiddcline · Post by **kiddcline** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:50 am

Thanks for the info.

Pojack · Post by **Pojack** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:53 pm

Well, he's taking the buck in his mouth on the fetch command now without pinching his toes even though the toe hitch is still on his paw. Is it time to progress to other steps of the training as per the video or should I still be training the fetch command using the toe hitch for a while? I just started this training with him yesterday.

kiddcline · Post by **kiddcline** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:41 pm

Keep that toe hitch on him but if you think he's got it down try moving to the next step.

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:15 pm

I've never seen a video on force retrieving so I'm courious, what's the next step? Where is the buck when the dog is taking it now?

Pojack · Post by **Pojack** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:33 am

Don wrote:I've never seen a video on force retrieving so I'm courious, what's the next step? Where is the buck when the dog is taking it now?

He's been taking the buck from my hand at eye level then leaning down lower to get it. In the next step, he's supposed to pick it up from the table. Eventually, I'll put out 3 or four bucks prgressively further away from him on the table and then have him fetch each one individually. After that, the video says to put him on the ground and do the same thing, then do it in the field.

Bear · Post by **Bear** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:34 am

Pojack,

I have seen this problem
1. I think you may moving a little to fast. Make sure before you move to the ground that he will retrieve (HOLD) anywhere on the table first.
2. A trick I have used for a dog being hard mouthed is a very stiff horse brush or anything that is uncomfortable to his mouth.
3. Going back to #1 make sure he will HOLD many types of things before you move on. He needs to know when you say hold he must hold.

Force fetching is a very slow process and rushing it is only going to confuse your dog, go slow and be rewarding to you companion. Force fetching done right will help with all your training to come.

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:59 am

digging this tread up...

I am doing my reading and learning and will be building a table this week to start FF my dog (the one i have talked about that is hardmouthed) I know people say its better to send the dog off but i want to do it myself and really cant spend the money right now to send him to a pro. What reasons do some of you not like the toe hitch...to me it seems like it would be alittle easier than doing the ear pinch if the dog started wiggling his head...

the dog is very hard mouthed on birds because he was able to chew on some before when he was younger...i plan on starting off with the paint roller but i have never seen him hold a bumber or anything else firmly actually he' sloppy with them and need to hold them firmer but a bird he wan't to crush it. basically what if he is holding all objects fine then when you go to the bird he holds it too tight? do you apply presure then? now i have not finished all my reading and watching just trying to learn from some of you as well.

Luke

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:41 am

I'm not a toe hitch guy. I use ear pinch, as I believe it offers some substantial benefits.

At the point where your dog shows an undersanding of turning off pressure thruogh fetching, we begin sequentially fetching downward toward the ground - step by step. That will lead to walking fetch, at which point I e-collar condition them to the "Fetch" command. It goes on from there if you're interested.

EvanG

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:44 am

i see your smart work avatar. i have the smart fetch DVD set where it uses ear pinch (that is you Evan?) but i also have a George Hickox DVD set and he was just doing it with the toe hitch.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:09 pm

luke0927 wrote:i see your smart work avatar. i have the smart fetch DVD set where it uses ear pinch (that is you Evan?) but i also have a George Hickox DVD set and he was just doing it with the toe hitch.

Yep! One of the distinctions between me and most of my contemporaries is that I remain available to answer questions trainers have along the way.

I'm not anti-toe hitch, per se. I'm just so pro-ear pinch that I don't find the two techniques belong together in my method. Since you have the SmartFetch DVD, you can see for yourself how seamless the progression of steps is in forcing via ear pinch. There are no conceptual speedbumbs from one way of applying pressure and another. Even e-collar conditioning flows smoothly by coordinating ear stimulus with e-stimulus.

Questions?

EvanG

luke0927 · Post by **luke0927** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:30 pm

EvanG wrote:
luke0927 wrote:i see your smart work avatar. i have the smart fetch DVD set where it uses ear pinch (that is you Evan?) but i also have a George Hickox DVD set and he was just doing it with the toe hitch.
Yep! One of the distinctions between me and most of my contemporaries is that I remain available to answer questions trainers have along the way.

I'm not anti-toe hitch, per se. I'm just so pro-ear pinch that I don't find the two techniques belong together in my method. Since you have the SmartFetch DVD, you can see for yourself how seamless the progression of steps is in forcing via ear pinch. There are no conceptual speedbumbs from one way of applying pressure and another. Even e-collar conditioning flows smoothly by coordinating ear stimulus with e-stimulus.

Questions?

EvanG

I just started watching it just the other day let me get through them and im sure i will! i have not made it all the way through the dvds yet but if you were training a pointer do you still follow all the same steps as if you were doing a retriever?

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:26 pm

I like the ear pinch. Then I have control of the dogs head. I also think with the toe hitch there's a possibility of injuring the dog. Bottom line is controlling the head is important to me. When you get off the table and go to the ground, if the dog refuses, it's easier to get an ear than to flounder around for a cord. If for some reason the dog ever refuses you when your done, the ear is right there, the cord is gone. You can correct immediately with the ear.

When doing the ear pinch, hook three fingers in the collar and that controls the head. Then I don't have finger nails so I lay a 16 penny nail in the hand with the nail head up and pinch against the nail head.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:06 pm

Did you ever notice how close your face is to that dog's mouth when using the Toe Hitch? No thanks. I think that's why they advocate tieing the dog to the post; can't get bit then.

The grip Don gave you is correct. Instead of a nail, put a golf spike or bolt throught eh collar with the end rounded. Then you don't have to put much pressure on the ear and won't cause sore spots on it.

Don't ever put so much pressure on the dog's ear that he screams and can't perform his required task. He should whimper, but not scream. Think of yourself if your'e being hurt. If you're being hurt too badly, you can't think of doing anything but stopping the source of that pain. That's how trainers get bit. Use moderation.