creeping

basspow · Post by **basspow** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:19 pm

I have been teaching whoa on a teathered pigeon. I use an aprox 25' teather. As long as the c/c is around his flank he will hold on whoa. ( no creeping) from about 30' out, while I flush the bird.Soon as I move the c/c up to the collar, when I lead him in, he starts to sight point and starts creeping. We will stop this whoa in the field, until I find another spot with more cover.
Sure looks like sight pointing will lead to problems like creeping. :

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:26 pm

More than anything it sounds like he's just had too much of the same thing in the same place for too long.

Sight pointing can encourage creeping in a way, dog sees what he thinks is a bird, then wants to move in to smell it/make sure.

Nothing teases dogs like birds they can see, which is a big part of why trialing and testing on planted birds is such a phony deal, and creates unnecessary pressure on dogs they'd virtually never have to deal with on wild birds.

Try moving your training spot around to different areas when you see this starting to develop and it'll probably help quite a bit.

You can stop this creeping pretty easily though by moving the E collar back to the flank on a very low setting. When it's working there move it bck to the neck.

You should not be having to whoa the dog at this point however, and if you are you probably need to go back to launcher birds and pop them as soon as he moves after establishing point. CR

TimSchoenborn · Post by **TimSchoenborn** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:25 pm

WildRose wrote:More than anything it sounds like he's just had too much of the same thing in the same place for too long.

Sight pointing can encourage creeping in a way, dog sees what he thinks is a bird, then wants to move in to smell it/make sure.

Bingo............

Good call. And too many pigeons will lead to this type of action also. Pigeons are way overused in so many cases.

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:47 pm

I don't think to many pigeons will lead to that. I think improper use of any bird will tho. There is nothing I can think of that you can do with a bird on a tether that will appear natural no matter what kind of bird it is or how well it fly's. The dog is reacting to a setup situation where what the bird is going to do is absolutely predictable, every time in that it ain't going anywhere after the flush.

First sentence in Basspow's post: "I've been teaching whoa on a tethered pigeon".

If you want to teach whoa, get rid of the bird and teach whoa. What your teaching is that whoa means there's a bird there. What whoa means is, "stop and stand still". Nothing else.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:04 pm

Don is right it is not the pigeon. Teach whoa then use birds that will fly away. Pigeons that are homed to a loft could accually be the cure if you have launchers. As soon as the dog creeps launch the bird.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:46 pm

The dogs will hunt pigeons just like any other game bird. Some dog owners think because they don't want to hunt pigeons they are an inferior bird of some type. It's all in the mind.

Ezzy

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:02 pm

I find that dogs understand steadiness quicker when I focus on stop to flush training instead of pointing drills or whoa training. I see stop to flush training as the bird giving the whoa command.

Brad Higgins
www.higginsgundogs.com

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:01 am

Brad,
When you used the bird release, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? It appeared in the video that the dog had no idea what was going on. He stopped because he saw the bird fly, but the whole idea is that we want them to stop before the bird fly's. I don't understand what you are doing, can you please explain a little more. Thanks for the help.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:24 am

when you do some stop to flush work......the dog doesnt get to point, and as you say, doesnt realize birds there. So, when the bird flushes with out the dog knowing its there........dog thinks it boogered up.......we arent doin all the talking stuff, so it always stays between the dog an the bird.

So what it accomplishes is it changes the dogs way of thinking. The dog will slowly start being more cautious, or somewhat careful when hunting because it doesnt want to screw up. The dogs major thought in the field is to find a bird.......and point it for mom or dad.....so when it doesnt get alot of oppertunities to point but just gets to watch it fly off........they start trying a little harder to figure out why or what they are doing wrong as this is happening.

Reading the dog is a key factor, realize when to allow to point, and when to flush with out the point. Dog will tell you. In this fix with the dog, you have to pay attention to what the dog tells you. Hope this helps on the thought of what and why. Thanks Jonesy

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:29 am

bwjohn,

You're exactly right. The dog stopped because he saw the bird fly. This is stop to flush training (the bird giving the whoa command).

Dogs want to flush a bird so they can chase it. Steadiness training is about teaching the dog not to pressure birds or chase. In stop to flush training, the dog is learning that a bird in the air is a cue to stop. Once he knows this, it carries over to when he points. He gets staunch because he know if he pressures the bird into flight, it's a stand command, no chasing. When a dog is good at stop to flush, he becomes careful not to flush birds. In this training, the bird is giving the commands, not the owner.

Regards,

Brad Higgins
www.higginsgundogs.com

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:02 am

I am very new to training. But this is different from the way I thought about or have read about training. Is this style of training predominant over other types of training?

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:28 am

bwjohn,

Most other types of training begin with obedience (yard work, whoa training, etc.). This training method is different. It's based on dog psychology. We don't do yardwork. Our training takes place in the field on birds or around birds. The primary commands are a "here" command and a stand command. Our stand command is taught on the ground, no whoa barrels etc.

It's a silent method. We don't use any verbal commands with the exception of a here command. The dogs learn from the birds. Bill West and Bill Gibbons are the best known for this type of training.

Brad Higgins
www.higginsgundogs.com

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:38 pm

Thanks for the explanation. Can you recommend any other places that I could read more on this topic? Does this have any affiliation with the Delmar Smith Silent training method? Always enjoy reading about different ways to train.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:13 pm

bwjohn,

I have lots of articles, videos, links, etc. describing the West method on my website.

www.higginsgundogs.com

Brad Higgins