need an alternative method for pup and gun shot

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:36 pm

i have an 8 month gsp who so far is naturally stop to flush. normally i fire a blank when the pup is chasing. since she isnt chasing what would be an alteranative method to adjust her to the blast

ohiohuntinweim · Post by **ohiohuntinweim** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:00 pm

Would the stop to flush be the same as a chase? As far as the signal to shoot. Dog is focused on bird as before, just not moving yet.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:17 pm

What I like to do is to have a clipwing in my pocket and when the dog points, hold her, then throw the clippie or shackled bird and send dog to retrieve. Have the bird in light cover. Just as she gets to the bird fire the gun.

You can do the same thing with a fly away bird. After the flush, let her chase it and fire while at a distance and in hot pursuit.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:05 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:What I like to do is to have a clipwing in my pocket and when the dog points, hold her, then throw the clippie or shackled bird and send dog to retrieve. Have the bird in light cover. Just as she gets to the bird fire the gun.

You can do the same thing with a fly away bird. After the flush, let her chase it and fire while at a distance and in hot pursuit.

Wouldn't it be just as good to toss the clipped bird and fire the blank as the bird was coming down, hence resembling a shot bird?

I would think that as long as the dog doesn't munch the bird that this could help develop the natural retrieve.

Although I wouldn't know what to suggest what to allow the dog to do unless I heard some long term goals as far as training. Every handler has different goals.

FWIW

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:18 pm

Do you think it's possible that her "natural stop to flush" could be due to fear or nervousness around birds? I've seen this in some young dogs. Right from the start they point and are steady to flush but for the wrong reasons. With young dogs like that I want to fire them up before I introduce the gun. I want to see them bump and chase some birds. Maybe even catch a bird or two in the begining.

Just a thought.

Brad Higgins
www.higginsgundogs.com

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:33 pm

Ditto on Higgins....

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:21 am

Higgins is right on the money. I would not be shooting yet cause you will take the chance of scaring the pup. Wait until it builds confidence before shooting. Using some chipped wing birds maybe the perfect solution. Throw the clipped wing bird, release your dog and let it get some birds and kill them. I bet soon your dog will be going on the flush then you can start shooting.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:35 am

Casper wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:What I like to do is to have a clipwing in my pocket and when the dog points, hold her, then throw the clippie or shackled bird and send dog to retrieve. Have the bird in light cover. Just as she gets to the bird fire the gun.

You can do the same thing with a fly away bird. After the flush, let her chase it and fire while at a distance and in hot pursuit.
Wouldn't it be just as good to toss the clipped bird and fire the blank as the bird was coming down, hence resembling a shot bird?

I would think that as long as the dog doesn't munch the bird that this could help develop the natural retrieve.

Although I wouldn't know what to suggest what to allow the dog to do unless I heard some long term goals as far as training. Every handler has different goals.

FWIW

Yes, you could do it like that with a cooperative clippie. Problem is, most don't go too far. I'd be concerned that by turning the pup loose with the bird in the air, the pup would be too close at the shot. It's also why I prefer shackled birds to clippies.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:36 am

Higgins wrote:Do you think it's possible that her "natural stop to flush" could be due to fear or nervousness around birds? I've seen this in some young dogs. Right from the start they point and are steady to flush but for the wrong reasons. With young dogs like that I want to fire them up before I introduce the gun. I want to see them bump and chase some birds. Maybe even catch a bird or two in the begining.

Just a thought.

Brad Higgins
www.higginsgundogs.com

I strongly agree slow down and get the pup chasing birds first.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:24 am

Usually best to take a few steps backward before progressing. I have to wonder if a dog like this is bird crazy, is hunting with the aggressiveness it needs to be, if the dog is fired up for birds, etc. when it sounds like a timid dog. Although can't tell squat without seeing the dog. I'd get the dog chasing and forget steadiness. If the dog wants be naturally steady at this age, then later trainer will go fine. Dog must at least chase a flying bird to be shot for its intro., but I'd be scared to death of this scenario if the dog is afraid of the shot and associates the sound with the bird.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:25 am

I would care to guess that this pup has already had some time chasing birds and is now self taught to remain standing after the bird takes flight. The poster is looking for an alternative to firing the blank gun while pup is standing so close. By producing what would appear to be a shot bird by tossing a cripple and firing a blank would produce the excitement needed so that the pup does not pay attention to the shot and keeps its focus on the bird.

This is how I see it without the poster giving more information.

FWIW

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:39 am

Your assuming a lot of an 8 month old pup IMHO.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:52 am

An addendum, if one is more focused on manners than the dog's learned ability to search, use the wind, hunt hard enough to be an effective hunting companion, you can easily put the cart before the horse. I've seen far too many extremely mannerly dogs that wouldn't get out from under the owner's shadow. The dog needs to learn to hunt effectively before you start putting these kinds of manners on him. Once you take it out of him, most don't come back, IF they have not been given the opportunity to be bold, independent, hunters, and learned to range enough to be effective. My concern is that his dog is very young and most likely isn't enough of a dog yet to be worried about this area of training. Get him out and let him learn to hunt, to love birds, to chase with reckless abandon, then worry, once he is MATURE enough, about breaking.

I will give my same recommendation I give to most new trainers, find a good mentor and learn to train properly instead of ruining a few and being stuck with them.

No, I don't know THIS dog or THIS owner. I can generalize though in most cases.

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:56 pm

i guess i need to go thru more info here to clear up alot of misunderstanding. first there is no formal training or discipline. i started her out about 2 months ago getting her fired up about birds with pigeons. i would tie a 30 foot tether to the pigeon and let it fly off and come down over and over to get her all excited. thru some in the air to get her to chase. she would runn off maybe 30 feet in the beginning and let off after that. then i would plant a couple of pigieons in remote lauchers and work her on a check cord to get her nose working and some pointing keeping it short before i launch the bird. after doing this with a couple of birds once a week after a month or so she basically quit chasing for 30 feet. right now she is all over the pigeons while there in the cage as i am getting set up. when i work her on a check cord out to the planted birds she is dragging me really wanting to get out there and find that bird. but she has already figured out she cannot catch the birds and after a point and i launch the birds she will watch them fly off. full attention on the birds until they are out of sight. so i really dont think she is shy about birds. all i am wanting to do at this point is get her used to the gun shot so i can start hunting her and shooting birds over her. again no discpline just let her learn to hunt and point and with me rewarding her with shooting birds she points to let her know we are a team and these wild quail are what we are after.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:26 pm

I see a lot of young Pointers that naturally break themselves as you described. Sounds like the pup has plenty of desire. I would most likely fire the blank gun to get the association started. Just use care and common sense. I don't agree that a pup "must" start chasing. While most do, or at least want to, some very fine dogs don't, so why introduce something that will have to be corrected later?

Next time around using your current method, I would introduce the blank gun once the pup displays desire with the pigeon pole. The earlier you can make the association the more seamless the introduction.

8 mos. is pretty old in my world.

okie · Post by **okie** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:23 pm

If you are worried about shooting to close to the dog, have a helper to start at a distance with the blank gun as the bird is flushed. You can watch the dog for any sign that the blast is bothering the dog. If all goes well bring him in closer next time out.
Dave

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

blanked wrote:all i am wanting to do at this point is get her used to the gun shot so i can start hunting her and shooting birds over her.

If you feel that she is comfortable with the blank gun than introduce the clipped winged/shackled bird. If this boosted her enthusiasm than into. the shot gun. Start with the smallest gage you can and build up from there. Go slow and watch carefully. if she shows no signs of uncertainty than by all means GO HUNTING. If this is all that you expect of your dog than go have fun. If you plan on higher learning than do the training now so you dont have to fix anything later.

I was shooting birds over a 5 month old pup season before last. She was doing everything I wanted from her at that point in time. I believe at that point in time she learned allot from those experiences. I wouldnt go back and do anything different.

JMHO, FWIW

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:16 am

Nice picture - is that natural or is there a bird in a tether just out of frame?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:16 am

I don't think it is important to have the pup on birds when you introduce gunfire. Its recommended because it is convenient for most of us. But in reality the pup just needs to be doing something that its enthused about and be a distance away. That might be chasing a mouse or one of the kids, but just make sure it is engrossed in something. I have never had one come up shy and I don'ttake all that much time but it is so important that you do need to be careful the first few times at least.

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:06 pm

I don't think it is important to have the pup on birds when you introduce gunfire. Its recommended because it is convenient for most of us.

I disagree. While gun introduction can obviously be done without birds, I believe making the association of gun fire to birds is the best and preferred method of introduction. Personally I have little interest of my dogs associating gun fire with mice!

If anyone doesn't believe that a pup will "associate" the gun fire with "something", then they simply haven't trained enough bird dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:58 pm

Now Now,

I didnt say that the pup shouldn't learn to associate gunfire with birds but there is no need that has to be done with the first gunshot. I'll just bet everydog that has hunted and had birds killed over it a couple of times has learned to associate the two no matter what it was doing the first time it heard gunfire.

Anyone that doesn't know that just hasn't trained enough hunting dogs.

Merry Christmas

Ezzy

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:02 pm

I'll just bet every dog that has hunted and had birds killed over it a couple of times has learned to associate the two no matter what it was doing the first time it heard gunfire.

Every dog Ezzy?? I guess I haven't trained enough dogs.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:24 am

"i guess i need to go thru more info here to clear up alot of misunderstanding. first there is no formal training or discipline. i started her out about 2 months ago getting her fired up about birds with pigeons. i would tie a 30 foot tether to the pigeon and let it fly off and come down over and over to get her all excited. thru some in the air to get her to chase. she would runn off maybe 30 feet in the beginning and let off after that. then i would plant a couple of pigieons in remote lauchers and work her on a check cord to get her nose working and some pointing keeping it short before i launch the bird. after doing this with a couple of birds once a week after a month or so she basically quit chasing for 30 feet. right now she is all over the pigeons while there in the cage as i am getting set up. when i work her on a check cord out to the planted birds she is dragging me really wanting to get out there and find that bird. but she has already figured out she cannot catch the birds and after a point and i launch the birds she will watch them fly off. full attention on the birds until they are out of sight. so i really dont think she is shy about birds. all i am wanting to do at this point is get her used to the gun shot so i can start hunting her and shooting birds over her. again no discpline just let her learn to hunt and point and with me rewarding her with shooting birds she points to let her know we are a team and these wild quail are what we are after"

Now, I'm either functionally illiterate or am missing something...you say the above, and at the very end you say "these wild quail are what we are are after". What wild quail. From what I am reading you are working her on pen birds, pigeons, and have yet to allow the dog to hunt wild birds, to learn to actually hunt in areas where she will hunt in the future. Planted birds in controlled situations with no real seeking of wild birds in west Texas is not teaching the dog to hunt. Where are the wild birds in her training?? My focus would be much more on getting her into wild birds than worrying about pen bird training, particularly this time of the year, and with the bird popluation we have this year.

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:00 pm

I'm in ezzy's corner here. I never introduce a gun in the presents of a bird. But then once the dog is ignoring to gun I move right along to the bird too. Keep in mind that once you know the gun doesn't bother the dog, don't keep on firing for firings sake, get on to the bird. And right off, I don't recall any dogs that haven't soon made the connection between the gun and the bird after having been introduced without the gun. The puppose of the mouse or whatever is that if for some reason, remote tho it may be, the dog is actually scared by the shot, the shot is not associated with something we're likely to hunt. At least I don't hunt mice.

I would not fire the first few times if the dog was going into some type of cover that may hold birds either. I want no association with the first shots and anything that might matter in the field. My pup's will look at me when I fire and ignor it. They know what causes the noise and that it won't hurt them.

If you just go with a no bird introduction, as soon as they ignor the gun, use a blank over a bird. Then come at the dog and pop the bird while your still 20 yds or so from the dog and watch for reaction from the dog. I think you said the dog chases just a bit and quits. Give it four or five steps and fire. I doubt you have any problem.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:16 pm

Oh brother. Obviously many, many pups were introduced to gun fire using methods other than birds. I know that. And I'm sure that Don and Ezzy are very capable of timing the shot properly to ensure success. I know that as well.

My point is that it is FAR less dangerous for an inexperienced trainer to SCREW UP the timing if the pup is in flight after a bird. Further I would be willing to wager ANYTHING that more pups were ruined using methods other than birds.

Don, honestly, how many newbies are going to have your sense of timing? Are you suggesting that your experience means nothing? My method works 100% of the time for 100% of trainers and pups. Sure, other methods can work, but why risk it? It's the easiest part of puppy training that so many want to complicate.

Keep It Simple Stupid.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:48 pm

If theres no bird involved I never expose my dogs to gun fire no matter how gun seasoned or old they are.

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:49 pm

Really I don't think it matters if the dogs are on birds or off. If someone is going to mess it up, they are going to mess it up. If they do it off birds, the dog won't associate the shot that scared it with the bird, if they do it on a bird it might. I have an idea that most dogs if just taken out and hunted and allowed to be doing anything, chasing or other wise, you'd find out generally except the gun pretty well unless, something really dumb is done. There's a lot of dogs that just get taken to the gun club and thrown to the wolves that actually don't become gun shy. I have no idea why! I do it off birds for one reason only and that is to eliminate any possibility, and I admit it's remote, of a really soft dog associating the gun with the bird.

I think eazzy said it right, it's a convienience for us to use the bird. But in chasing the bird, the fear could be masked by the drive. That's what is hoped for. We saw right here where that didn't work out as planned for one member who's dog started blinking at bird scent in anticipation of a shot. I would say the handler missed in the initial training and he would too I think. But had it not happened over flying birds, his problem would maybe have never come up in the first place. At least not the problem of the dog blinking birds. Then the softness to the gun could have been seen for what it was rather than hidden in the bird's flush.

For the most part it probably doesn't matter which way it's done. But in the case we're talking about here the guy has a dog that won't chase. Need to come from a different angle.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:00 pm

If someone is going to mess it up, they are going to mess it up. If they do it off birds, the dog won't associate the shot that scared it with the bird, if they do it on a bird it might.

Don, if they mess it up, it's called gun shy. It's over. Birds, mice or anything else (including food) won't make a difference.

I think eazzy said it right, it's a convienience for us to use the bird.

I disagreed with that notion as much as anything she wrote! It's not a "convenience" at all. In fact, it takes effort to set up the situation with birds properly. I view the other methods as pure laziness on the trainers part.

There is the right way and then there are all the other contrived and haphazzard ways of doing it. Will the easier, less time consuming methods work? Many times they do. I train for a living and I WILL NOT risk taking shortcuts with something as integral to the future of the pup as gun introduction. Simple as that.

blanked · Post by **blanked** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:21 am

yawallac
when you said as soon as the pup shows desire on the pigeon fire the blank. dont i need to be concerned that i am standing right next to her at this time?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:19 pm

Yes, I certainly wouldn't fire if the pup was right next to me. I'd set it up so that the pup found the bird at a distance. Someone mentioned an assistant. That would be a good idea as well as long as the assistant understood EXACTLY when to fire or the assistant could handle the pup and you fire at the appropriate moment.

Listen it's awfully tough to do this over the Internet w/o seeing first hand how the pup is really reacting to bird contact. I would expect the pup to be very intense on the bird before I fired. That is very important. The timing is very important.

okie · Post by **okie** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:53 am

I have the perfect start and perfect finish tapes. I think it is on the perfect start tape where they show introducing a young dog to gun fire with birds. They show what to look for if the dog is bothered by the gun fire. Have a helper fire the blank from a distance while the dog is engaged with a bird. Watch the dog when they fire the blank you will be able to tell if it is bothering him.
Dave

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:28 am

Don,

I read this quote "There's a lot of dogs that just get taken to the gun club and thrown to the wolves that actually don't become gun shy. I have no idea why!" and it reminded me of your concern when I mentioned the "Gun Club" method I had used in a post a while back.

I think I need to explain the process a little better because I didn't understand then and I don't now where exactly the risk is.

Our Trap/Skeet club is on 320 acres which is part of an employee recreation area with large lake, radio controlled airport, ball diamonds etc.
This park is where I used to take the dogs for "Happy Timing" to expose them to water, children, and strange objects (playground equipment). The Gun club is tucked away in one corner.

The process I used was to go to the lake which is roughly 1/2 mile from the gun club itself. I would get the dogs out and let them play. The dogs would invariably look over toward the direction of the gunshots and I would allow them to work their way over to that location (always on the CC) as long as they were interested. When we finally get to the club we approach from behind the shooters and they always greet the pups with a lot of attention so the dogs associate the gunfire with nothing but good things.

It is completely up to the dog as to how close it is comfortable being to the noise. They were never "forced" to go.

It's not like just driving up to the trap house and throwing down the tailgate as it sounds in your post.

I just didn't want you to think I would be that thoughtless.

Kevin

Don · Post by **Don** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:57 am

I don't think that's thoughtless. What I'm referring to is the guys that take the pup right up and let the firing begin. I don't think they are thoughtless either, just don't realize what they are exposing the dog to.

I had Squirt out to a youth pheasant hunt a couple weeks after I got him and they had a trap range set up for the kids off away from the camp. I'd already started shooting around him with a blank gun while happy timing. He noticed the people over there and obviously heard the gun fire and was wanting to go that way so I let him in small increments. took about a half hour or so to cover the distance as I kept stopping to watch him. Never bothered him a bit and it was the first shotguns ever fired around him. Like you said, we worked over at his pace and if he'd have flinched at all I'd have cut away at an angle at about the same pace we went at.

The guy's I'm talking about is best shown by a friend of mine years ago. We had labs. He took his pup to the old trap range that is south of Kalispell, Mont. and tied it up just behind the 32yd line. then left it there as the guys started shooting. Never bothered his dog but I haven't a clue why. I would not do that in a million years. I wouldn't tie up a dog I was already hunting with like that.

There seems to be a belief that dogs aren't afraid of anything and certainly not gun fire. And if in a situation like that, they think it's nothing they did wrong but rather a naturally gun shy dog. I don't think many dog are naturally gun shy but some are a bit timid. Some more than other's. The dog that's considered naturally shy is really timid to a fault and would cower and leave from exposure to any sharp noise. I don't think there's a lot of them around. Gun shy is generally a man made problem.

All, the things done to introduce a dog to gun fire, weather with or without birds is done to avoid the slightly timid dog from becoming gun shy. I think if you ask anyone, yourself included, you'll find that two things to avoid gun shyness that is absolutely necessary is timing the shot and understanding what the dog does at the shot. If that dog is a bit timid, you have to see it and act accordingly right from the first shot.

If you read back on the "Blinking" thread you'll see where something was missed in gun introduction and it was thought that the dog was blinking birds. But, what the dog was really doing was avoiding the shot. Early on the desire of the dog was masking it's doubt's about the gun fire till at some point the dog quit pointing birds. The dog had related the shot that bother it to the bird flushing. It's really really important to read what the dog is telling you. I doubt that that guy did it on purpose either, he'd followed a proven plan, either from a video or book, I forget which. Unfortunately those books and videos don't usually stress the need to understand what the dog is telling you. Fortunately, it seems that most dogs are very good at not worrying about gun fire much after they've been exposed. Bobman wrote that he never shoots around his dogs unless there's a bird in the air. I never thought about it before but neither do I, once I'm done with introduction. Once your shooting around the dog it makes no sense to see how much the dog can take before it quits on you.

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:22 am

Good post Don.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:40 pm

Ditto.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:50 pm

Don,

Thanks. I had been confused since the earlier reply. When I read your reply to this thread it dawned on me that there was really much more involved in how I had done this than just "taking the dog to the gun club" which is all I had mentioned before.

I agree that in many/most cases a timid, gunshy, no drive, dog is the result of a misguided, over-controlling owner who demands 100% control over his dog at all times. Control by intimidation.

Also, tying a dog up at a gun club and walking away when the dog had never been exposed to gunfire before would border on abuse in my book.

Thanks again for the excellent clarification.
Kevin

need an alternative method for pup and gun shot

need an alternative method for pup and gun shot

Yawallac