CHEAP TITLES

[Casper]

"Aaaahhh...come on Bill...you know that a birdless dog can win.....even if it's only for a minute or two ROFL...."

I've been to a trial where derby dogs that went birdless were called back - and given the placement over dogs that had birds on course.....

Come on!

This actually happened here recently :roll:

[Brittguy]

Sort of. The judges got the names of two dogs that were braced together mixed. The winning dog went birdless. 5 or 10 minutes later it was corrected. I talked to the judge, his explanation was as confusing as the mixup.

[Neil Mace]

Dave,

The point is, even though I angered some folks with the "Cheap" comment and sincerely apoligized, beating only 12 Open dogs to an FC, seems less than most try to make it. Particularly if you own 6 - 8 of the 12.

Although theoretically, a dog could become a AF Champion without pointing a bird, I have never known it to happen. The AF/AFTCA Guidelines say a chamionship is not to be awarded without birds, including the Derby Ch.

You are right about the Garden State A-A Ch, in the last years it fell from grace, that is why it is no longer a A-A championship. Sadly, the Free-For-All is also declining in participation.

All you need do is subscribe to AF to keep abreast of all the top dogs.

I know how to check the AKC results by trial, I do not know how to do so by dog. I am going to check, I would like that information.

Neil

P.S.

Dave,

I checked the AKC Store and the only report I can find for FT dogs is the Awards Record, it costs $8.00 per dog and shows the Date, Club, only one of the Judges, Class, Placement, and Points. Is that the one you meant? Does not show number defeated, though you can infer it within a range when points are awarded. I think you would have to go to the Events and Results site and check by event, no?

Thanks in advance,

N

[Greg Jennings]

This has some good discussion, but some of the tone is unacceptable. Please steer it to a positive contribution.

Greg J.

[WildRose]

"Aaaahhh...come on Bill...you know that a birdless dog can win.....even if it's only for a minute or two ROFL...."

I've been to a trial where derby dogs that went birdless were called back - and given the placement over dogs that had birds on course.....

Come on!

This actually happened here recently :roll:

Well guys this does happen and it's covered well within the rules. If the judges don't feel they have a clear winner, or four dogs worthy of placements they may call for a second series. That series may be conducted on course, or in a call back situation at the judges discretion. It's totally up to the judges discretion to set the criteria for the call back and to brace the dogs however they see fit. Now if you have a few dogs that go around nicely and have birds then the judges are duty bound to place them accordingly, but when there are extreme or unusual circumstances a call back or second series is reasonable and allowable. If however the judges are simply not happy because the "right dogs" didn't have birds and appear to be doing something untoward, by all means protest, write it up, present it to the FT committe and your complaint HAS to be included in the FT report sent to AKC. Or you can simply mark the even down in your book earmarked as "Places I won't go again, or judges I wont' run under again".

I've been on both sides of the equation both as a participant and as a judge when this has happened.

In one case we had 20 or 22 dogs in the stake, and ten or fifteen of them laid down quality performances. The only dog in the stake though to have a bird happened to belong to the guy who'd planted birds for the stake up until the last three braces and that bird was found stuck in a single bush right next to the dog wagon. The biggest move the dog made on the whole course was fifty yards BEHIND the handler!

Six of the dogs that had the best performances were called back to see them point. They all did, and the judges placed the dogs.

In another case where I was judging we had a nice set of dogs to look at but utterly horrible conditions. Temperatures were in the mid eighties, winds in the thirty to forty mph range and zero humidity, with a sky that looked like chocolate soup!

We had no dogs with birds on course and felt like they hadn't had a decent opportunity. The wind died down the temperatures dropped, so we had a call back with four dogs and placed them accordingly.

We definitely all (participants and judges) agreed that these situation met the criteria of "extreme or unusual circumstances". CR

[WildRose]

A dog can be a Field Champion by only defeating 38 dogs, and only needs to defeat 12 in Open stakes.

The point is, even though I angered some folks with the "Cheap" comment and sincerely apoligized, beating only 12 Open dogs to an FC, seems less than most try to make it. Particularly if you own 6 - 8 of the 12.

Neil you've been trailing since before I was out of short pants. So please tell us, in your 40 plus years of trialing how often have you seen this happen? Name a few of the dogs and breed if you can.

While theoretically it's possible and may well have happened, in the short span of time I've been involved in the game I've certainly never seen it.

CR

[phillipsgsp]

Trials and dog challenges are great and I run them both. There is a game for everyone to play its just that some require a different level of training or different caliber of dog. The place I put most stock when looking at titled dogs in general, rather it be for breeding or purchase is Hunt Test titles and NAVHDA titles. In these the dog is held to a standard, the dog either does it or not. It is more of a pass/fail. The dog is there to perform to a level of training or natrural ability, not beat all the other dogs there or run bigger, run faster, find more birds than the bracemate, it's there to be evaluated, to see if it measures up to a standard that is spelled out clearly in a set of rules. If I see MH or UT prize 1 in a pedigree to me that means that dog is pretty darn good, it might not say that the dog can run a mile ahead of you find birds, but it says it can cover ground, perform all of its bird work to perfection with basicly no commands. To get a MH pass at a hunt test means that the dog made zero mistakes, if it messed up it does not pass. I know alot of people will say hunt test dogs are not big runners, but that is simply not true. they got to cover ground or they do not pass. I have seen many dogs fail for being to close of a worker. Like I said all the dog games are good and I play most of them but if you want to talk about cheap titles none are easy and everyone is earned. I think if you want to look at titles the MH and Ut titles mean that it is a truely refined gentlemans brag dog. Those titles are earned without alot of screaming and whoaing the dog. To me it means the dog did it more on its own and wasn't yelled at to stay put when approached on point and not whoaed 4 times before the bird was flushed. Most of all it means the dog retreived to hand and did not earn a title without making a single retreive. No titles are cheap, some just mean a dog is trained to a different level than others.


Chad

[bigoak]

neil,
No field trialer will breed to my dog just because he's a field champ.The dog needs hour wins.As far as cheap titles go,your breed runs closed trials.The dogs are only as good as their competition.Open those trials up and see where your at!...vern