Should There Be?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:42 am

Should there be a water retrieve requirement for the MH for versatile breeds?

Should there be a MHE (Master Hunter - Excellent) beyond MH that requires the water retrieve?

What else do you think belongs in an MHE?

Best regards to all,

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:03 pm

Not much of a Master hunter IMO if they won't retrieve from water.

Would be a good idea, but I think most dogs that achieve that level would not have a problem, unless your talking multiple blinds or something.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:39 pm

Greg,

I think there is already something in the works for a AKC MH Excellent. Last year at a Kansas Hunt Test I spent the evening talking with an AKC Field Rep. about that very subject. He detailed some of the requirements but I have slept since then. I do know it will require multiple levels of water work and blinds if I am not mistaken. It sounds like they are trying to stay level with NAVHDA. I don't think there was a required duck search though. I agree, any good MH or dog with NAVHDA UT background should be able to handle the chore.

Coveyrise64

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:10 pm

there is a retrieving test
in fla. this weekend
i am going to it but i didnt even know there where retrieving tests for pointing breeds
i am in for a education
:shock:

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:21 pm

My understanding is that some of the breed clubs already do have extra tests for versatile breeds but that the AKC does not recognize them.

Best,

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:08 pm

I thought weims and wire faces had to have a water retrieve pass before they could fully qualify for a FC. For some reason I thought before the MH was awarded both of those breeds had to have a pass also in water retrieve.SDGORD

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:58 pm

GWP have to pass some water tests before they qualify for a MH.

There is talk and it sounds like it will happen that the MH may go national. Will have a National Champion.

Ezzy

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:05 am

ezzy333 wrote:There is talk and it sounds like it will happen that the MH may go national. Will have a National Champion.

You know, honestly, I'd hate to see that happen. One of the things that the AKC hunt tests have that is most appealing is that you don't compete against other dogs, you compete against a hunting standard.

And, if it's all just about accumulating points, then the dog that enters the most hunt tests wins. It won't be a true measure of the best Master Hunter.

The MHE title looks better, but I'm gonna have to get my dog into some water if we're gonna have a shot at that. (He doesn't particularly like to go in the water... dunno why.)

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:39 am

(He doesn't particularly like to go in the water... dunno why.)

My Weim is the same way. He'll retrieve dummies all day long in water a bit tentatively at first, and has only had one water retrieve on a pheasant in a slough, but has NEVER spontaneously gone swimming.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:53 am

Steven,

Get a duck, tape or velcro its wings down. Let your dog chase the duck from land into water. Make sure the duck has enough of a head start that it actually makes it to the water.

I bet your dog will love chasing the duck so much that it will overcome his issues with water.

Use a pond that's small enough that you can catch the duck and release it.

Best,

Post by **Ayres** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:30 pm

The hunt preserve and trainer I go to has a shallow river running through it and also a shallow livestock pond. After he's got his FF done we're going to try to get him into the water going after birds. If that doesn't work, I'm going to get in myself with some waders.

The duck idea is a good one that I haven't heard before. I'll pass it along if the other things we try don't work. (won't use it first because then I'd have to get my hands on a live duck from somewhere.)

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:36 pm

There has been talk of a Master Hunter Excellent (MHX) title or a Master National event for quite some time. I have serious doubts of the likelyhood of either happening in the near future for a variety of reasons.

In every conversation that I've had with an AKC rep, including one I had a month ago with the senior pointing breed rep, one thing has become very clear. The AKC is NOT going to be in the business of holding field events, and the AKC is NOT going to take it upon themselves to create new field events or titles.

The AKC got into the business of holding the AKC National Gundog Pointing Breed Championship, and its turned into a p-i-t-a for the AKC to run. The AKC doesn't have the staff (or isn't willing to commit the staff) to hold an event.

The current approach being taken by the pointing breed field reps is that any and all changes need to be taken through the Pointing Breed Advisory Committee, and they better be supported by large numbers of participants as evident by letters and petitions.

The AKC will support a new title IF there is a groundswell of organized support and there is a common set of expectations. Right now, if you ask 10 hunt test guys what should make up a MHX, you'll get 11 different answers.

IMO, water work is dead on arrival, as it isn't feasible at many of the grounds currently in use, and the non-versatile pointing breed clubs won't support it.

What more is there to test, that is acceptable to all the breeds? I have yet seen a good explanation of what the standard for a MHX test should be.

The AKC Performance Dept. folks are also fairly concerned about setting precedents in one group that will end up being carried over in others. If they allow the pointing breeds a MHX, the retrievers and spaniels will want it as well. I don't think the AKC will allow itself to "slide down the slippery slope" unless they are prepared to take it the whole way.

The retrievers have a Master Hunter National (MN) event. It is sanctioned by the AKC as a "normal" MH test, but it is by invitation only. (See http://www.masternational.com/ for more info). This event has become a political nightmare for the AKC to handle. There is talk of the Master National club dropping their AKC affiliation completely. It’s a mess that the AKC is currently involved with; keep that in mind.

With the growth in AKC walking trials, and the lack of a clear need for a MHX title, IMO the expectation is that MH dogs looking for something more to do within the AKC would move up to walking trials.

IMO, if there is truly a demand for this event, here's what I recommend. A breed club (or a number of them) should get together and write a standard. They should offer the event to their member clubs, AS A CLUB TRIAL and not an AKC event. Start there, run it for a few years and show that there is nationwide interest at the club trial level. Show that there is a demand, and folks willing to organize, participate and judge at such an event. THEN, approach the AKC with a proposal.

FWIW,

Dave

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:29 am

GWP's are the only breed that need a water test to complete either a SH or a MH title. Both Weims and GWP's need a water test for a FC or AFC title, no other breeds require this.

It took the GWPCA roughly 4 yrs to get this requirement passed with the AKC, they didn't want something for only one breed we guess. When we first began this quest, all of the versatile breed clubs were contacted and were asked for their support and we hoped that some would join us.... not one of them were interested.

The GWPCA apparently will not support the idea of a MHX event, their feeling is that it will turn competitive and that is not the spirit of the testing program.

There is a water test Aug. 21 in NJ for Weims and Wires... if anyone is interested, drop me an email and we'll get a premium to you.