I want to let you know about a new field trial we have created and the below article will be posted in the American Field, 28 Jun 08. This field trial is meant for hunters. We have a field trial that is sponsored by Quail Unlimited called the Hunting Dog. Our new field trial will be the format for the Quail Unlimited Dog of the Year trial. All the rules and standards are listed on http://www.unitedbirdhunters.com
United Bird Hunters, Incorporated (UBH)
Author: Chris Andrews
UBH is a non-profit, field trial organization dedicated to uniting bird hunters and field trailers to promote a true foot-handled shooting dog and recruit new participants. In the recent past, American Field participants have emphasized style and range above quantity of birds, which wasn’t the intent of pioneer field trailers or bird hunters. The UBH changes the current view of how foot-handled dogs are judged and emphasizes both quantity and quality in our FDSB foot-handled, sanctioned trials. The late Mr. William Brown stated in his book Field Trial (page 117), “Quality and quantity of bird work should receive paramount consideration in the average shooting dogs stake, the intelligence with which the dog searches, the experience denoted in his manner of winding promising cover, the diligence and effectiveness of his efforts, and the excellence of his manners,”.
As co-founders of this organization Roy Clark and I agree with Mr. Brown, and we identified the need for a true foot-handled trial and the need for a bird harvesting field trial that resembles a walking shooting dog stake. Those needs fill the void for enticing new members and recruiting veteran hunters into field trialing. The harvesting field trial receives recognition that will keep people participating after running in just one trial. The need was also addressed that a walking Shooting field trial dog should be the same dog that we hunt with, and that is where we focused our emphasis on developing those standards for our ideal walking shooting dog.
The task at hand was to enormous to go it alone, so we invited: Steve Chang of Colorado, Monty Duncan of Missouri, Ernie Ashby of South Carolina and Rob Yarborough of Kansas to assist us in developing the by-laws, walking shooting dog standards, hunting dog standards, and judging guidelines for each of our stakes. These men put in large amounts of time and effort to develop these guidelines as well as promote the UBH in their local areas. As a group, we received guidance from veteran field judges and trialers, while this isn’t an all inclusive list we wish to thank Bud and Shirley Walters of Texas, Craig Thompson and Harold Woodward of Arkansas.
How does the UBH unite bird hunters and field trailers while increasing participation? We offer two types of trials, subjectively judged Shooting Dog stakes and objectively judged Hunting Dog stakes. The American Field sanctioned, Walking Shooting Dog stakes offer a foot-handled field trial, which will be judged just as pioneer field trial participants and bird hunters intended, quality and quantity. The ideal, walking shooting dog will be an intelligent, classy bird-dog that has numerous finds during a field trial. The UBH ideal walking shooting dog’s range, obedience, style, and hunting manners are defined in our walking Shooting Dog standards and judging guidelines. The dog’s range will represent a gentlemen’s walking shooting dog in range, style, and obedience per our standards.
The Hunting Dog is judged with a scorecard on the same forward course as a walking shooting dog stake, where quantity is the main factor for a placement. The quality of bird work will create separation for dogs with equal numbers of finds, retrieves, and backs. The Hunting Dog stake can be easily identified with by most hunters and is an introduction to field trialing. The UBH Hunting Dog stake has partnered with Quail Unlimited (QU) allowing the stakes to progress to the National QU/UBH Hunting Dog of the year trial. The emphasis on this trial will keep hunters participating while they are viewing the walking shooting dog stakes the same weekend. The hunting dog stake is the “bridge” for hunters and new participants to the traditional field trial.
How will the UBH keep the organization strong? We keep our established walking shooting dog standards and our hunting dog standards from wavering. We work with organizations that promote youth participation in similar recreation events. The UBH also provides insurance coverage organizational wide, this alleviates the need for clubs to have separate insurance coverage. In addition to not needing insurance coverage, the $30 UBH yearly membership fee also includes a yearly membership with QU.
The UBH invites you to host a field trial or join the UBH. For more information, please contact one the following individuals listed below or visit our website: http://www.unitedbirdhunters.com. The website also allows you to view our rules, regulations, by-laws, field trial applications, and membership applications.
Rocky Mnt Region
Steve Chang, Vice President,
godfathergundog@yahoo.com
(303) 549-5168
Central Region
Monty Duncan, Vice President
pointerman4@yahoo.com
(417) 781-0707
Eastern Region
Ernie Ashby, Vice President
ernroe@yahoo.com
(803) 360-7654
United Bird Hunters
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
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Re: United Bird Hunters
This looks very interesting 
can you explain the hunting dog part more...on the scoring the chart is a little confusing
and in the what i am gathering not the AF sanctioned who is champion titles attained or are they attained
but I am lets just say extremely interested
can you explain the hunting dog part more...on the scoring the chart is a little confusing
and in the what i am gathering not the AF sanctioned who is champion titles attained or are they attained
but I am lets just say extremely interested
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
Hello K9,
The Open (Puppy, Derby, and Shooting Dog) are FDSB (American Field) sanctioned. The UBH will hand out titles for points accumulated championships, regionals, and nationals. We are currently working on the database and several thing to start a new field trialing venue. I believe you know Steve out there, and he has been helping out also.
The scoring chart was place there so you could see that more birds could be beaten by better work on certain margins. 4 complete nice pieces of bird work could beat 6 sloppy pieces of complete bird work. The idea is the bird hunters like meat in the bag, but a polished dog will be rewarded better than a sloppy dog.
The UBH is a new organization and we are working on many different projects right now to partner with different organizations. We believe that hunters will easily identify with this type of trial. If you win the Nationals it will be featured on the front of the QU magazine. High Point and Results will also be listed in the QU magazine.
The Open (Puppy, Derby, and Shooting Dog) are FDSB (American Field) sanctioned. The UBH will hand out titles for points accumulated championships, regionals, and nationals. We are currently working on the database and several thing to start a new field trialing venue. I believe you know Steve out there, and he has been helping out also.
The scoring chart was place there so you could see that more birds could be beaten by better work on certain margins. 4 complete nice pieces of bird work could beat 6 sloppy pieces of complete bird work. The idea is the bird hunters like meat in the bag, but a polished dog will be rewarded better than a sloppy dog.
The UBH is a new organization and we are working on many different projects right now to partner with different organizations. We believe that hunters will easily identify with this type of trial. If you win the Nationals it will be featured on the front of the QU magazine. High Point and Results will also be listed in the QU magazine.
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
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Re: United Bird Hunters
how does the hunting dog work is that for titles also via the UBH as that is the one doesn't appear to be AF sanctioned...what i meant in the first post
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
It will be sactioned by the UBH & QU. We hope this type of trial sanctioning will recieve legitamacy after a sometime. Due to the trial format, we believe the hunters will eventually hold a UBH title as an ultimate hunting dog.
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chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
We actually have run these Hunting Dog trials in South Carolina for about 6 years. We ran several in Arkansas last year under a different organization. We decided it was time to go it on our own. The Hunting Dog trial were well recieved by new comers and hunters. We had a few the decided to participate in the walking shooting dog stakes after trying the Hunting Dog stakes. I feel that the crossover between trials will continue to be one of the successes of our organization.
Re: United Bird Hunters
This sounds intresting. Seems to me that the organizations that I'm familuar with have pretty much gotton away from the bird dog in favor of the trial dog. The one thing I would question is it sounds lke just one more numbers game. Quanity can depend a lot on luck of the draw. Think I'll go look at your sight and get back.
Never set your dog up to fail - Delmar smith
The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown
Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!
The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown
Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!
Re: United Bird Hunters
Just got started reading and have to leave for awhile. Couple questions, do your have a judges giudline for judging? Also, it appears that a dog can win with only one find? The number of birds planted in the hunter stake, 5 the first brace and 3 plus birds taken out in each brace there after I would think puts the first brace at a disadvantage. If you have 5 birds down in the first brace and three get taken out, then for the second brace 3 plus 3 are added then you have a possibility of 8 birds for the second brace. That program has a snowballing effect for later braces.
Something else that occur's to me is that if quanity is to count then the number of birds required for a placement should be more than one. Is this a spotting system or a scoring system?
Something else that occur's to me is that if quanity is to count then the number of birds required for a placement should be more than one. Is this a spotting system or a scoring system?
Never set your dog up to fail - Delmar smith
The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown
Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!
The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown
Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!
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gunner
- Rank: 4X Champion
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- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:47 pm
- Location: Indianapolis, IN. USA
Re: United Bird Hunters
Chris, not to take anything away from your endeavors, I wish you the best, I agree that more foot handling stakes would be beneficial overall to the sport, however I find a couple of what I believe to be inaccuracies in your thread above.
Your quoted the late Wm. Brown as being the author of an article on page 171 of his book Field Fields. While Wm. Brown was the author of the book it was in fact Dr. Harold Longsdorf of Mt. Holly, New Jersey that wrote the article describing those qualities in judging gun dog events in the East. Longsdorf describes in the same paragraph the other natural attributes so important to a gun dog ; "the intelligence with which the dog searches, the experience denoted in his manner of winding promising cover, the diligence and effectiveness of his efforts, and the excellence of his manners. Style in action and on point is desirable, but there is no gainsaying that a good nose is the gun dog's greatest asset.
Chris you wrote " In the recent past, American Field participants have emphasized style and range above quantity of birds, which wasn’t the intent of pioneer field trailers or bird hunters."
I'd like to suggest what Wm. Brown wrote in his chapter 24 on "The Real Purpose of Field Trials" as trials not being so different as today (Brown wrote in the original publication The Field Trail Primer 1934, & Field Trials 1964) as what Maj. J. M. Taylor wrote in his classic "Bench Show and Field Trial Records and Standards of Dogs in America 1874-1891.
It must be noted that Maj. Taylor was around at the inception of the field trials in this country, was a traveled bird hunter, competitor, breeder, judge, book author, dog fancy editor, and reporter for the Chicago and American Field publications. To give you an idea what the "pioneer" field trial game was during that early period I'll quote Taylor from his article on page 67 of his Dogs of America 1874-1891 book, The Purposes of Field Trials where he goes into great depth in pointing out the differences of "filling the bag" vs class dog work and the natural attributes which are used in judging winners of field trial venues.
Taylor wrote: The gunning sportsman "does not consider the entirely different conditions and purposes governing a field trial, as compared with actual field shooting. Indeed, while in general appearance, they are very similar, in practice, they are very different.
In actual field shooting, the purposes of the shooter are directed toward killing birds and filling the bag. The work of the dog is secondary to this main purpose; that is, the shooter may in some instances admire a beautiful point, a superior piece of roading and pointing, great range and intelligent management, but only as theses qualities result in practical success.
In a field trial, the entire test changes. Instead of being tested by the success in getting shots for the shooter, the dog is tested in the first place by an ideal standard of perfection in all the details of field work, roading, pointing, ranging, pace, manner of working out the ground intelligently; the whole being governed also in a manner by bird sense, a term used to designate a dog's knowledge of all the details of working skillfully to the gun, the habits of the birds,, memory of their haunts in working the ground over a second or more times, etc. Thus while a dog; may make a most satisfactory showing in a day's shooting, if strong in some qualities, his success in such work may be much greater than when working against a standard of perfection.
Therefore in a field trial the test is more of the dog's natural capabilities, the manner in which he does his work, and not necessarily the amount. The manner is of paramount importance for the amount may be, and often is, merely a question of opportunity or accident."
Chris, this is not meant to detract from what you're attempting to accomplish, again, the best to you.
Your quoted the late Wm. Brown as being the author of an article on page 171 of his book Field Fields. While Wm. Brown was the author of the book it was in fact Dr. Harold Longsdorf of Mt. Holly, New Jersey that wrote the article describing those qualities in judging gun dog events in the East. Longsdorf describes in the same paragraph the other natural attributes so important to a gun dog ; "the intelligence with which the dog searches, the experience denoted in his manner of winding promising cover, the diligence and effectiveness of his efforts, and the excellence of his manners. Style in action and on point is desirable, but there is no gainsaying that a good nose is the gun dog's greatest asset.
Chris you wrote " In the recent past, American Field participants have emphasized style and range above quantity of birds, which wasn’t the intent of pioneer field trailers or bird hunters."
I'd like to suggest what Wm. Brown wrote in his chapter 24 on "The Real Purpose of Field Trials" as trials not being so different as today (Brown wrote in the original publication The Field Trail Primer 1934, & Field Trials 1964) as what Maj. J. M. Taylor wrote in his classic "Bench Show and Field Trial Records and Standards of Dogs in America 1874-1891.
It must be noted that Maj. Taylor was around at the inception of the field trials in this country, was a traveled bird hunter, competitor, breeder, judge, book author, dog fancy editor, and reporter for the Chicago and American Field publications. To give you an idea what the "pioneer" field trial game was during that early period I'll quote Taylor from his article on page 67 of his Dogs of America 1874-1891 book, The Purposes of Field Trials where he goes into great depth in pointing out the differences of "filling the bag" vs class dog work and the natural attributes which are used in judging winners of field trial venues.
Taylor wrote: The gunning sportsman "does not consider the entirely different conditions and purposes governing a field trial, as compared with actual field shooting. Indeed, while in general appearance, they are very similar, in practice, they are very different.
In actual field shooting, the purposes of the shooter are directed toward killing birds and filling the bag. The work of the dog is secondary to this main purpose; that is, the shooter may in some instances admire a beautiful point, a superior piece of roading and pointing, great range and intelligent management, but only as theses qualities result in practical success.
In a field trial, the entire test changes. Instead of being tested by the success in getting shots for the shooter, the dog is tested in the first place by an ideal standard of perfection in all the details of field work, roading, pointing, ranging, pace, manner of working out the ground intelligently; the whole being governed also in a manner by bird sense, a term used to designate a dog's knowledge of all the details of working skillfully to the gun, the habits of the birds,, memory of their haunts in working the ground over a second or more times, etc. Thus while a dog; may make a most satisfactory showing in a day's shooting, if strong in some qualities, his success in such work may be much greater than when working against a standard of perfection.
Therefore in a field trial the test is more of the dog's natural capabilities, the manner in which he does his work, and not necessarily the amount. The manner is of paramount importance for the amount may be, and often is, merely a question of opportunity or accident."
Chris, this is not meant to detract from what you're attempting to accomplish, again, the best to you.
Re: United Bird Hunters
Chris,
Ernie Ashby is a friend of mine and I have been following your progress as this organization has been coming together. Your Hunting Dog stake is loosely modeled after the very popular Sporting Dog stakes that we have been running under the NBHA umbrella here in SC. I was very excited to hear that you have partnered with QU and I am even more excited about the possibilities to come with the AKC.
You guys should be able to fill a void and I believe it's going to be a lot of fun. I will certainly be running dogs. What I like best about your Hunting Dog stake as opposed to other "shoot-to-retrieve" type stakes, is that you run on a course!! That makes it as close to wild bird hunting as is possible in a competitive shoot-to-retrieve environment IMO.
Congrats!! ...and I hope to meet you soon!
Ernie Ashby is a friend of mine and I have been following your progress as this organization has been coming together. Your Hunting Dog stake is loosely modeled after the very popular Sporting Dog stakes that we have been running under the NBHA umbrella here in SC. I was very excited to hear that you have partnered with QU and I am even more excited about the possibilities to come with the AKC.
You guys should be able to fill a void and I believe it's going to be a lot of fun. I will certainly be running dogs. What I like best about your Hunting Dog stake as opposed to other "shoot-to-retrieve" type stakes, is that you run on a course!! That makes it as close to wild bird hunting as is possible in a competitive shoot-to-retrieve environment IMO.
Congrats!! ...and I hope to meet you soon!
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
Don
there are two parts to UBH form what I ahve been looking over
the shooting dog stakes is AF rec where only a blank pistol is used and a dog has to have bird work and work more at a hunters pace then further out which the HB stuff has pushed dogs to doing...not that there is anything worng but we already have the bigger running stakes this one is closer working from what I can figure
so if you have braces a dog must have bird work to be considerd for placements in case of those days of terrible scenting condidtions but i am also gathering the more birds will do better then a dog with one bird should there be plenty of finds..
then the Hunting dog stakes now from what I see that part is NOT Af recognized because of the harvesting of birds part but is UBH and QU and i am thinking they are still working on that part of the how to recognized dogs and title them like NSTRA does...
I am guessing at right now hopfully chris will elaborate more on the formats..... I can see some room for clarifing things but for starters it looks like a great way to fill a mid ground
but that is the geist I am getting
there are two parts to UBH form what I ahve been looking over
the shooting dog stakes is AF rec where only a blank pistol is used and a dog has to have bird work and work more at a hunters pace then further out which the HB stuff has pushed dogs to doing...not that there is anything worng but we already have the bigger running stakes this one is closer working from what I can figure
so if you have braces a dog must have bird work to be considerd for placements in case of those days of terrible scenting condidtions but i am also gathering the more birds will do better then a dog with one bird should there be plenty of finds..
then the Hunting dog stakes now from what I see that part is NOT Af recognized because of the harvesting of birds part but is UBH and QU and i am thinking they are still working on that part of the how to recognized dogs and title them like NSTRA does...
I am guessing at right now hopfully chris will elaborate more on the formats..... I can see some room for clarifing things but for starters it looks like a great way to fill a mid ground
but that is the geist I am getting
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
tfbirddog2
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 7:56 pm
- Location: Colby,KS
Re: United Bird Hunters
Sounds like something Id like to try more up my alley, where will trials be at? Or looking to be at.
" Everyone makes fun of a redneck till their car breaks down"Larry the Cable Guy
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
hopefully chris will check in this evening..but there are some trials scheduled but after i spoke with chris...it sounds like it is going to be a happy medium in trialing and a format which really will be more appealing to the average hunter
no format is with out a hang ups but at least the way this sounds it will be more natural with the some of the things that will combine the best of both worlds with the reality of the FOOT HUNTER and not about a race
no format is with out a hang ups but at least the way this sounds it will be more natural with the some of the things that will combine the best of both worlds with the reality of the FOOT HUNTER and not about a race
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
RuttCrazed
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 389
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:31 pm
Re: United Bird Hunters
When are you coming to Kansas?
Rut
Rut
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chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
Folks,
I appreciate all the response. If you would like to host trials or see a trial please contact one of the following VP's. The VP's are currently divided by Time Zones. The VP will help you get trials started in your area. Please remember we are a new organization and there will be bumps in the road. Our emphasis is on the dog not the handler, getting youth and families involved, and recruiting hunters & new comers into the sport.
If you are in the MST or the PST please contact
Rocky Mnt Region
Steve Chang, Vice President,
godfathergundog@yahoo.com
(303) 549-5168
If you are in the CST please contact
Central Region
Monty Duncan, Vice President
pointerman4@yahoo.com
(417) 781-0707
If you are in the EST please contact
Eastern Region
Ernie Ashby, Vice President
ernroe@yahoo.com
(803) 360-7654
I appreciate all the response. If you would like to host trials or see a trial please contact one of the following VP's. The VP's are currently divided by Time Zones. The VP will help you get trials started in your area. Please remember we are a new organization and there will be bumps in the road. Our emphasis is on the dog not the handler, getting youth and families involved, and recruiting hunters & new comers into the sport.
If you are in the MST or the PST please contact
Rocky Mnt Region
Steve Chang, Vice President,
godfathergundog@yahoo.com
(303) 549-5168
If you are in the CST please contact
Central Region
Monty Duncan, Vice President
pointerman4@yahoo.com
(417) 781-0707
If you are in the EST please contact
Eastern Region
Ernie Ashby, Vice President
ernroe@yahoo.com
(803) 360-7654
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chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
Trial Scedules
We currently will have trials in Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, and South Carolina. We think there could be a possibility for TN, MS, Ok, & Az this year. We will be working hard to get judges certified and dogs qualified for our UBH National Championships.
We currently will have trials in Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, and South Carolina. We think there could be a possibility for TN, MS, Ok, & Az this year. We will be working hard to get judges certified and dogs qualified for our UBH National Championships.
Re: United Bird Hunters
So far this sounds pretty good. I'm not so sure about the part that says you have 10 min to show the judge a dog when asked tho. Thats and awfully long time for a dog that should be handling as was described. I do like the spotting system of judging tho, but allowing that one win could win a stake, at some point that will likely happen. One of the first things I was told when I started AKC trialing was to get the one find needed then get the dog away from birds if you could. The reasoning being that you could win with one bird but with two your chances of a wreack increase greatly and you can't win with a wreack. For myself I think that some of the little things that take a dog out in those trials are trivial at best and go against the grain of good dog work at worst.
Example: A dog that turns to mark a bird is displaying good dog work to me as is the dog that jumps out of heavy cover to mark a fall. When I ran AKC, either would get you picked up. The dog that takes a step at flush but stops on it's own has made a mistake but I would rather see that than to watch a handler block and intimadate his dog thru the flush and shot. The first cost you a placement for sure and the second was passed off as handling the dog.
I really think what has been lost in AKC trials is the idea that we should have a bird dog and it will make mistakes but one mistake is not a great thing. I have never ran Amer Fld so I'm not gonna coment on it other than to say, I have read a number of reports in the past where dogs were lost and end up dead. Those witnessing it claim the dog had a great deal of drive. I would say maybe so but the dog also lacked intelligence that it would run itself to death.
Somewhere in the whole mess is the dog that has the bidability to berak out well and maintain all it's intensity. That will handle well without giving a robot performance. And has the experience and independence to choose objectives on it's own and to work them intelligently. I read the Amesian Standard and that is what I think they are looking for. I read the AKC standard of preformance and again I think that is what is being looked for. I have watched many AKC braces and I can assure you that that is not at the top of many peoples lists!
Example: A dog that turns to mark a bird is displaying good dog work to me as is the dog that jumps out of heavy cover to mark a fall. When I ran AKC, either would get you picked up. The dog that takes a step at flush but stops on it's own has made a mistake but I would rather see that than to watch a handler block and intimadate his dog thru the flush and shot. The first cost you a placement for sure and the second was passed off as handling the dog.
I really think what has been lost in AKC trials is the idea that we should have a bird dog and it will make mistakes but one mistake is not a great thing. I have never ran Amer Fld so I'm not gonna coment on it other than to say, I have read a number of reports in the past where dogs were lost and end up dead. Those witnessing it claim the dog had a great deal of drive. I would say maybe so but the dog also lacked intelligence that it would run itself to death.
Somewhere in the whole mess is the dog that has the bidability to berak out well and maintain all it's intensity. That will handle well without giving a robot performance. And has the experience and independence to choose objectives on it's own and to work them intelligently. I read the Amesian Standard and that is what I think they are looking for. I read the AKC standard of preformance and again I think that is what is being looked for. I have watched many AKC braces and I can assure you that that is not at the top of many peoples lists!
Never set your dog up to fail - Delmar smith
The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown
Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!
The greatest room in the world is the room for improvement - William F. Brown
Some people think to much like people and not enough like dogs!
-
kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
I am gonna go out on a limb for this
but what i interpret this to mean
rule #
18. A dog shall have a scored find and retrieve to be eligible for a placement in the trial.
what I am gathering here if you have one of those days with lousy scenting condtions where ALL the dogs are comming up birdless there will be no winner as it would take bird work to get your winner ..and one dog getting bird work would have more points any ways making it a winner because it found the only bird of the day and that there would be no other placements
so if you have 3 placements to award and only 2 dogs scored on birds then there would be only two placemnets awarded with the dog scoring more birds or a better job on his bird work as there is a smaller scale for scoring basically here again a dog stands still for the flush or a dog that creeps is deducted a point...it is about bird work
but what i interpret this to mean
rule #
18. A dog shall have a scored find and retrieve to be eligible for a placement in the trial.
what I am gathering here if you have one of those days with lousy scenting condtions where ALL the dogs are comming up birdless there will be no winner as it would take bird work to get your winner ..and one dog getting bird work would have more points any ways making it a winner because it found the only bird of the day and that there would be no other placements
so if you have 3 placements to award and only 2 dogs scored on birds then there would be only two placemnets awarded with the dog scoring more birds or a better job on his bird work as there is a smaller scale for scoring basically here again a dog stands still for the flush or a dog that creeps is deducted a point...it is about bird work
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
Don is talking about our shooting dog stake. We did allow 10 minutes, but sometimes you may lose a dog in a thicket. Remember these rules have to apply to all types of coverage across the US. Maybe a dog took a couple of egdes out, and now you just have to get him back around.
We don't believe in finding one bird and keep the dog to the front. We believe in find as many birds as possible while doing it with ideal class and application.
We don't believe in finding one bird and keep the dog to the front. We believe in find as many birds as possible while doing it with ideal class and application.
Re: United Bird Hunters
Hey Chris,
Have you seen this??
http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 20870.html
Looks like everyone sees the need for a "hunting dog" stake....
Have you seen this??
http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 20870.html
Looks like everyone sees the need for a "hunting dog" stake....
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
Sounds like on the same board with the shooting dogs stakes of UBH
but the UBH Hunting dog stakes will require the rest of the bird work ,,and that is the retrieve thus why AF is recognizing their shooting dog as it is blank pistol but will not recognize the Hunting dog cause it is with shotguns and AF will no longer recognize stakes where birds are killed...
that is where stps in and UBH and Quail unlimited will have a accumulative point system for the dogs...
i like how the have basically put the point system on a lower level ,,thus really gearing it towards the dog and dog work on birds ...
but the UBH Hunting dog stakes will require the rest of the bird work ,,and that is the retrieve thus why AF is recognizing their shooting dog as it is blank pistol but will not recognize the Hunting dog cause it is with shotguns and AF will no longer recognize stakes where birds are killed...
that is where stps in and UBH and Quail unlimited will have a accumulative point system for the dogs...
i like how the have basically put the point system on a lower level ,,thus really gearing it towards the dog and dog work on birds ...
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
You are correct K9. This venue is about the dog work, not the breed. It is about a Classic Hunting Dog.
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
i was just talking about the 7-10 scale ...as I was explaining it ....I told them basically how I see it like in school and being a grade
10pts = A
9pts = B
8pts = C
7pts = D
other then that your dog got an F and failed that piece of work no pts
10pts = A
9pts = B
8pts = C
7pts = D
other then that your dog got an F and failed that piece of work no pts
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
When we come up with the scoring we thought almost like that:
10--Oustanding, none better
9--A
8--B
7--C
Anything work below a C average will cause a bird to flush in a wild bird hunting situation. If the liberated bird flushes then there is no score. Again, the work is judged, not the dog type.
10--Oustanding, none better
9--A
8--B
7--C
Anything work below a C average will cause a bird to flush in a wild bird hunting situation. If the liberated bird flushes then there is no score. Again, the work is judged, not the dog type.
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
well I wasn't to far off then...but Have to say everyone i have spread the info to seem pretty excited
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
Re: United Bird Hunters
How is the Hunting Dog Trial (HDT) that much different from NSTRA? I looked at the regs for the Hunting Dog Trial (HDT) noticed some differences, which include the following:
1. Hunting Dog Trial has a set course where as NSTRA just has a field boundaries and each handler is allowed to go where he or she wants in those boundaries.
2. The scoring system.
3. Number of birds stocked each brace.
4. Marked bird regulations?
Do dogs in HDT have to be steady to wing and shot? That would be another difference.
How does a dog become a champion? Points, winning certain trials or other?
Does the HDT have puppy, derby and open classes like the Walking Shooting Dog Trials?
Good luck. This sounds like it would be a fun trial.
1. Hunting Dog Trial has a set course where as NSTRA just has a field boundaries and each handler is allowed to go where he or she wants in those boundaries.
2. The scoring system.
3. Number of birds stocked each brace.
4. Marked bird regulations?
Do dogs in HDT have to be steady to wing and shot? That would be another difference.
How does a dog become a champion? Points, winning certain trials or other?
Does the HDT have puppy, derby and open classes like the Walking Shooting Dog Trials?
Good luck. This sounds like it would be a fun trial.
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: United Bird Hunters
The only championship is when you get to the upper levels like American field other then that what i am seeing is high Point dog and wins
The Hunting dog is steady to flush and since it is forward moving instead of randomly all around it can have a gallery
it is more getting back to the dog and handler
One can do NSTRA and this and go hunt...just opening up more stuff to do
we have enough big running to huge running stakes wiht the how fast and how far a dog can run
this is about hunting dogs hunting pace dogs working with a handler not about a handler chasing the dog
other the same thing only different
The Hunting dog is steady to flush and since it is forward moving instead of randomly all around it can have a gallery
it is more getting back to the dog and handler
One can do NSTRA and this and go hunt...just opening up more stuff to do
we have enough big running to huge running stakes wiht the how fast and how far a dog can run
this is about hunting dogs hunting pace dogs working with a handler not about a handler chasing the dog
other the same thing only different
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
-
chris andrews
Re: United Bird Hunters
It is different from NSTRA. In NSTRA you have to be a competitive handler. Many times handling will when and not the dog.
This HD trial is more about the dogs ability. It is on a forward course and a dog has to use its intelligence to find a bird.
K9,
One of us will get around to answering your e-mials. The UBH leadership has been busy with all the things going on.
Have a good weekend, and hope to see you at trials in the fall.
Chris
This HD trial is more about the dogs ability. It is on a forward course and a dog has to use its intelligence to find a bird.
K9,
One of us will get around to answering your e-mials. The UBH leadership has been busy with all the things going on.
Have a good weekend, and hope to see you at trials in the fall.
Chris
Re: United Bird Hunters
Does anyone know if this organization is still hosting trials? I tried the website but it was not active.
Jeff
Jeff
-
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 839
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:38 pm
- Location: Central Nebraska
Re: United Bird Hunters
Jeff I'm sure it never got going. It was a good idea but I never saw it getting off the ground and it appears it didn't. Not surprised.
Robert Myers
Rajin Kennel
308-870-3448
Brittanys are Best enough said...
BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061
Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678
BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869
Rajin Kennel
308-870-3448
Brittanys are Best enough said...
BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061
Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678
BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869
Re: United Bird Hunters
The UBH are having trials and doing well. I have ran in a couple and had a real good time. I even took their judging course and judged a trial back in Dec.
We are having a trail in northeast FL in Feb.
Like any new organization, they are having growing pains, but I think it is going to do well.
The web adress is http://www.theubh.com/
We are having a trail in northeast FL in Feb.
Like any new organization, they are having growing pains, but I think it is going to do well.
The web adress is http://www.theubh.com/