Senior hunters vs Master hunters

[ymepointer]

I was discussing with a breeder of the requirements they use for validating there breeding stock, and was suprised when told they thought SH was a better litmus test than MH for breeding stock as it required less training and therefore IIUC showed more natural traits. I have never run hunt tests so am not sure how difficult a test MH is compared to SH and which would most breeders consider the better test of breeding stock? Anyone want to give me your 2 cents worth on this

[SwitchGrassWPG]

My .02...

Any performance title just tells you how trainable a particular dog is. Yes, it must have the instincts and natural abilities to build on, but you can't get there without training. Some dogs have it, some don't. Sometimes trainability is reproduced in a litter, sometimes not. Many times dogs have the ability, but their owners have no desire to have their dogs evaluated in hunt tests. Doesn't mean they aren't good dogs and unworthy of breeding, there's just no third party frame of reference. The higher a dog progresses through any series of titles, the more trainable.

I'm sure many will disagree, but these are my thoughts.

[Brittguy]

I would consider MH as more of a criteria for breeding than a SH

[ezzy333]

I have never been a big fan of the MH title. Seems to me to be mostly about training when you get to that stage and I hvae seen too many MH dogs that were robots instead of thinking bird dogs. If people do it right without training for it I think the JH title tells you a lot about natural ability and then SH tells you the dog has its natural ability controled in the field and then the MH just shows that someone spent lot of time training to make the dog extremely obedient almost to the point where there is little independence left. SH is the title I look for as telling me it is a dog I would breed to.

JMO

Ezzy

[fuzznut]

Sounds like a breeder who has never been able to put a MH on a dog?

Yes, I'll agree the MH is more about training. But I feel we need to know if our dogs can take the pressure of that tough training and still come through mentally stable. Dogs that wilt under that training are showing signs of a weakness, and that's a good thing to know if you are considering them to be part of a breeding program.

Just another piece of the puzzle.
Fuzz

[ezzy333]

Sounds like a breeder who has never been able to put a MH on a dog?

Yes, I'll agree the MH is more about training. But I feel we need to know if our dogs can take the pressure of that tough training and still come through mentally stable. Dogs that wilt under that training are showing signs of a weakness, and that's a good thing to know if you are considering them to be part of a breeding program.

Just another piece of the puzzle.
Fuzz

Good point Fuzz, but my position is what it is because I have never seen a need for that kind of training other than to just say I did it. I agree with a dog trained to the degree needed in a trial but to make them robotic is not my thing. Some people feel control is the ultimate goal and I think independent thinking is more important. And many of the dogs I have seen compete and win are just robotic. I continue to see ads where it is stated just how young the dog was when it finished its MH title and I have to admit that sure doesn't impress me as my first thought is that the pup was never allowed to learn on it own before being trained to do what some one wanted it to do.

I do not see the ability to do something that I never do as an advantage to me or a the dog.

Sounds like a breeder who has never been able to put a MH on a dog?

If this was directed towards me you are right but the real reason is I have never tried and never will.

[fuzznut]

Ezzy, wasn't directed to you- but rather to anyone who downplays the importance of a finished dog in a breeding program.
I don't like or appreciate a robotic dog either. And if a finished dog is robotic, it's a good sign there either is a problem with that dog's mind, or the trainer wasn't very good.

Finished dogs should continue to have their independence and be able to use their own judgement on where to go to look for birds. Being steady to wing and shot doesn't turn off their genetics. But, sometimes it does show what their true genetics are and aren't.

Sort of a shame to say there are things you will never do. Never? That's a long time to deny yourself an experience that could expand your knowledge. But to each their own.
Fuzz

[Greg Jennings]

It's easy to take the shine off a dog if the trainer gets in too big a hurry. Doesn't mean it has to be that way.

[3Britts]

Love this one.

If a dog has a MH title, it also carries a SH title with it. Right?
So, if I would use a SH for breeding, I would use a MH for breeding. But, I would first like to see both dogs work a field or trial grounds before I would use that dog for breeding.

[bwjohn]

You do not have to have the SH title to get a MH title, pretty sure.

brandon

[3Britts]

You do not have to have the SH title to get a MH title, pretty sure.

brandon

Brandon,
You are right. But, I have never meet someone that skipped over the SH to get a MH.
I have meet those that have skipped the JH on their way to a SH.
JMEx

[Ruffshooter]

Well Meet some one who has skipped the SH twice, two diff. dogs of course. I will never do the SH just for the cost and I will have my dogs trained beyond SH level by the time they are 3 or so.

You have to pass 6 times instead of 5. I have seen the robotic dogs but you could tell instantly that they were not truly bird crazy or anything I would want. They were boot lickers every one. Funny thing they did the JH, the SH then the MH. The robotic dogs generally were from show dog folks that wanted to have a title on there dog. In fact there is a trainer up here that trains only for the AKC show dogs for the MH program. He has certain places he will go and always looks at the judges to see who will be judging the event. If it is a trial person or he knows they are a hunter, judging, he will not enter the dogs. He has tricks to get a dog through the whole program. He even asked me to go stand by my dog when he was on point so his dog would honor. :roll: He was a very nice man and but jumping shrews.

One particular piece of grounds has the first 10 to fifteen minutes of woods, My dogs all hunt the would and go out of sight work just like we are hunting. I have seen others that are in flushing dog range or closer in that first part and the judges still gave the dog scores that would pass the dog that day. They don't plant birds in that first section but on occasion, they will find a grouse or wood cock, mine did because they got off the path. We usually get compliments on our runs even when something went wrong. I have had judges that have told me they were happy to see my dogs on the MH brace sheet.
It is unfortunate that the test is diminished here in the North East.
In my opinion, judges that have never hunted or trialed, That only know the rules and don't really understand the actual hunting dog, rewarding a dog of the robotic type and folks that just want the title regarless, are the reason this title is diminished. I will always test my dogs in this venue, but they will be trained as for hunting and trialing etc. as they should be. I do like a finished dog for my grouse hunting.

Just my experiences and .02. I like the premise of the MH test.

[Dirtysteve]

You do not have to have the SH title to get a MH title, pretty sure.

brandon

Brandon,
You are right. But, I have never meet someone that skipped over the SH to get a MH.
I have meet those that have skipped the JH on their way to a SH.
JMEx

I have skipped SH with two of my dogs. One is a MH the other has 4 passes out of 6 and should finish the next test (hopefully). IMO there is no sense in a SH if your going to do a MH. The SH lets them get away with things that they shouldn't in a MH so why not go right to a MH.
And as far as Robot bootlickers... My Crash has his MH and placements in AA stakes. Needs 1 more point for his FC and 2 for his AFC. So he blows the robotic stero type to heck! Anybody thats seen him run is flat amazed that he has a MH on him. My Tuck dog is not as big as runner but just as independant. I am an avid chukar hunter and want big running dogs to find my chukars so I have no place for boot licking robots as some say the MH's are.
Brake them and let them roll

[phermes1]

I would value a MH higher than a SH. It shows both dedication on the part of the trainer and trainability on the part of the dog.

That being said, based on titles alone, I'll take an FC or AFC over either. The odds are better that they'll have that extra 'something' that I'm looking for.

[Tejas]

I know a couple of pros that only train for MH. They eschew both Jr. and Sr. If you don't want your training exposed to deterioration from interaction with lesser trained dogs, it makes sense.

[3Britts]

The one thing that I really appreciate about this forum is the amount of information you can gain.
At the beginning of this thread, I had never met or spoken to a person who did not complete SH before moving on to MH. Now I do. Its very nice to increase ones' understanding and knowledge.