Call Backs

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:48 pm

I would like to hear from all of you that Field Trial about things to think about when going into a Call Back.

For the first time since I started running in a broke dog stake (started this fall) I got my dog around clean and was looking at either a 1st or a 2nd placement in a 24 dog stake going into the call back. Needless to say I was extremely nervous. Do to an infraction and poor choice of bird placement per the judges my dog was eliminated.

The short of the story is the birds were planted in grass without an objective for the dogs to go to. I turned the dog loose and he ran straight to where the bird was planted because the gunners were standing not far from the bird. A few feet from the bird the dog pause for a 1/2 sec took one step and the bird took flight. Dog stopped to flush. Because the dog paused the judges said he had established point but they failed to note the direction of the wind and the fact the dog was not in the scent cone. I blanked the bird and collared the dog off.

How should I or how could I have handled the situation differently or better? Could I have discussed the situation with the judges in hopes they would give me another bird? Everyone watching seen what really happened and thought the judges missed the actual situation.

Any insight toward Call Backs would be greatly appreciated. Anything from preparation to training to handling would greatly assist me in making my dog better. Come Feb. we can start doing some wining.

Thanks in advance

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:23 pm

That bites Casper.

Call backs are what they are.....
I can't provide anymore insight than that.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:54 pm

Casper, was the call back for the retrieve?

In the call back situation be sure you talk to your dog just as you would out on course. Call backs, especially out in your desert are always done in a clump of grass and the point is not to "give the dog an objective" but rather to put the bird in a likely and easily accessible spot to facilitate getting the task of call backs done.The judges at this point are looking to see your dog get pointed so that he can demonstrate his manners in standing steady so the bird can be flushed for the gunners to shoot. The total emphasis in a call back to retrieve is now on the actual RETRIEVE....not in how your dog got pointed.

You should have talked/ cautioned your dog into the bird, whoa'd him up. and that stop to flush situation probably wouldn't have happened then. But if it still happened you should have then made those judges replant those birds PROPERLY for a second chance at things. Birds planted for call backs should be moderately hard planted so they stick.

That is my take on the situation.....been there.done that....

But all that said call backs are dicey anyway. They are what they are and you just learn from your mistakes each time you get called back.

Congrats on gettin around Clean!!!! That had to have felt good to have been in the running for a ribbon!!!! Which dog? Mac?

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:20 pm

Like Helen said, talk to the dog and keep him settled. They are just looking for a retrieve not how he runs so keep him close and under control.
It would not have done any good to ask for another bird, the judges felt he bumped the bird.The way you described the situation it sounds like a bump to me,he stopped,then crept forward that indicated he had the scent and wanted to get closer.Sometimes gallery try to make us feel better.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:45 pm

It is permitted for the handler to place the gunners, in your situation I would have brought them to behid "ME", and proceeded.

Walk the dog into a downwind situation on the lead, whoa him, take the lead off and put it in your pocket and not "IN YOUR HAND". In other words, get rid of it. (The lead in you hand might be considered as a threat and overly so.) You could be eliminated.

As a judge, you will not make any points with me by whoaing the dog into the bird, cautioning and all is very much permitted but I like for the dog to establish point. Not much talking from me at this point, one finger up and a caution, just re establishing the 2 of us as a team.

At that point, the handler in entitled to position the gunners in the place he would like for them to be, dog is standing.

Flush and kill are then in order.

My best suggestion is to attend lots of trials and watch lots of callbacks, just like watching guys that are handling on the course. Lots of little tricks that make the dog look good.

I like to feel that I will do/can do, whatever I can to help my dog through a situation. If you are unsure, "ASK THE JUDGE".

Better luck next time. Also, easy yo say and hard to do but try not to let you doggie know how nervous you are.

Pepper

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:05 pm

One suggestion:

Train for Master Hunter level. Your dog will become much more reliable in EVERY situation whether on the course or the call backs.

Also remember that your dog must be steady to both wing AND shot for call backs. I see too many people (including judges) who think that the dog can go at the shot for call backs.

Having a MH level dog has gotten me FT placements. She's not the biggest runner but we get around the course clean and she handles kindly!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:38 pm

All pros, and most good amateurs, specifically train for callbacks. Which in the case of GSP trials, yes, are all for the purpose of making a retrieve (someone asked that).

Most handlers have a special command they use in callback situations and callback training. "Birdd here," "be careful," something like that, tells the dog to be cautious. That command is reinforced by setting up callback situations in training, and using your ecollar to nick the dog if it runs out of the pocket (the 10 - 2 area right in front of you), or lines out instead of adopting a cautious, windshield wiper pattern.

As Jerry mentioned, you should place the gunners and you should always work into the wind. You should instruct the gunners to say nothing if the bird is shot, or to say "No" in a low and slow tone of voice if the bird was missed. The reason for this, is that you need the gunners to tell you what happened, but you do not want their speaking to cause the dog to go. You should keep your eye on the dog at all times, including turning and looking at the dog when the bird is flushed. The judges will like it best if you say nothing to the dog at this point, but raising a hand or finger and quietly saying no or whoa is not wrong.

Callbacks are fraught with potential for accidents. Those of us who have been at it a day or two have seen all of them, birds that fly back and hit the dog in the side, chest, or worst of all right in the mouth, birds that walk to the dog, birds that are shot in a wind by the gunner and roll dead right to the dog's feet. Birds that walk around the dog and may actually walk directly under it.

Special training is done to prepare for these situations. A "pigeon on a pole" can be used. Tether a pigeon to a long pole, plant the pigeon (or other game bird), lay the pole on the ground, have the dog establish point, and then use the pole to fly the bird all around the dog, over its back. When the dog has gotten really steady, you can and should actually hit the dog with the bird. Use the ecollar to discipline the dog if it moves a foot, snaps at the bird, or breaks. Or you can just keep some birds in a bag at your waist, have the dog establish point, and throw the birds at or around the dog.

Obviously, these are intense training situations. You want to make sure your dog has some experience and is well broke before you do them. And a little goes a long way. Be careful about doing too much of it, it is possible to overdo it and cause a dog to lose style, i.e. flag, crouch at the flush, drop its tail. Any hint of these things and it is time to stop for the day.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:52 pm

A little more information since I was in a hurry writing this last night.

When I was called up to do my call back I approached in much the same fashion as Jerry mention. The one gunner came toward me to tell me where the bird was planted the other stayed behind a short distance from the bird. Maybe 50-60 yards. The dog didnt see where the gunners put the bird he just locked in on where the one gunner was standing. There was a dead log 30 yards from the bird that I had hoped the dog would run too so that when he circled it the wind would than be in his favor. The dog took the direction of highest probability. As he was approaching the bird I did begin to caution him. This may have been the reason he paused. Everyone knew the direction of the wind and every other dog proved that point. My dog could not have had scent of the bird. When he took that one step the bird popped.

At that moment I looked at the judges and waited for their response. They told me to blank the bird and collar my dog. As I collared the dog they thanked me than told me why they were not going to give me another bird.

Should I have than attempted to discuss the situation so that they realized the dog didnt have the bird in hopes that they would reconsider their decision? Can a handler ask the judges to go down to the spot to note what happened at that spot?

Helen yes this was a call back for retrieve and the trial was over in California at Spenceville Wildlife Area and it was Mac.

I can only assume but does anyone actually train for the call back? If so how do you go about it?

From a judges point of view. Can a handler walk as far as he needs to to cast his/her dog off so that the dog has the highest chance of establishing point? Or should a handler always cast his dog off from a suitable distance?

Some of the finer points might make the difference when it comes to winning. If you can think of any situations that have happened either while you were the judge or as the handler that caused a dog to get eliminated I would like to hear those situation. I might be able to prevent myself from making the same mistakes by learning from yours.

Thanks again

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:57 pm

Thanks John allot of what you said is what i was looking for. I was typing while you posted.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:23 pm

In the few hundred call-backs that I have observed, gunned, judged, or handled, I have probably seen/done it all. If you can image it, it has probably happened to someone. Unfortunately, the best way to learn how to avoid these situations is to learn from mistakes; whether they were made by you or someone else. If you train your dog for the call-backs, they will save you when you screw up.

Why didn't you "whoa" your dog when he stopped beside the bird, and how can you possible see the scent cone? Chances are, the dog knew the bird was near, and the bird flew because the dog took a step after it stopped.

The judges probably told you to blank the bird to give them a chance to discuss what they saw. Apparantly they didn't like what they saw.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:23 pm

The field is yours. You are the handler, not the judges. You should walk the dog to the position that you think is most advantageous for the dog and you. The judges will follow. Let them stop you if they think you are messing around for some reason, but as long as they understand your purpose and it does not appear that you are just delaying, no good judge will stop you from setting your dog up for its best chance at success. We all know that callbacks can be a kluster-you-know-what. Walk to the far side of the callback area if you want and start there.

Callbacks are one area where split second decisions make the difference. And you should rather ask forgiveness for doing what is best for your dog, than permission.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:47 pm

wannabe wrote:In the few hundred call-backs that I have observed, gunned, judged, or handled, I have probably seen/done it all. If you can image it, it has probably happened to someone. Unfortunately, the best way to learn how to avoid these situations is to learn from mistakes; whether they were made by you or someone else.

Are you not going to share any of these mistakes? I am sure that you may have seen some very common errors. At least share for sake of discussion. Sometimes learning from others mistakes can prevent my own disaster

I didnt Whoa the dog cause that is not establishing a point :roll: If the Judges were looking at my dog for a first placement doing that alone could have cost me 5 points.

No one can see a scent cone but everyone can tell where the breeze is coming from :roll:

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:19 pm

If you had "whoaed" your dog when he stopped, he would have either styled up because he knew there was a bird nearby, or you could have called him to you if you didn't like the way he looked. There is no text book for field trial handling. You have to be constantly evaluating and revising your plan depending on what is going on.

Casper wrote:Are you not going to share any of these mistakes?

Some of the most common mistakes I have seen are:

Handlers not training their dogs for call-backs.

Handlers expecting their dogs to point like a million bucks in one of the phoniest situations of their life.

Handlers assuming that dogs can only smell birds upwind of them.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:17 pm

Take what John and Jerry said to heart. They've probably been through as many call backs in the last five years as most amateurs will see in a lifetime.

It hasnt' been too awfully long ago that I was in your shoes with a dog I knew was probably the first place dog and me in my first call back. In spite of the gunners making a huge mess of it we had a perfect retrieve to hand with the only piece of the bird big enough to pick up!

Unfortunately like an idiot I stood there for a few seconds after the bird exploded not knowing what to do and she left for the retrieve before I released her!!!

You made one gross error that I bet you never make again. Remember that YOU are in charge! TELL the gunners what you want before the bird is even planted as far as where you want them to be. The JUDGES should have had the gunner that remained out there by the bird come back. There's no reason for either gunner to be out there ahead of you at all.

As far as the situation itself... Most of the more experience handlers I know train a good bit specifically for call backs. The most successful handlers I know train there dog to basically work at heel until they get the dog close to where the bird is and whoa the dog to a point before it even smells the bird. That way the handler is in total control of the whole situation.

When I'm gunning for call backs since i know how nervous most novice handlers are I'll "suggest" to them that we stay a step or two behind them until the dog points and that they then point us to exactly where they want us. I try to always make sure that myself and the other gunner flank the handler and if it's a stiff wind make sure before the bird even comes up that we have some good, safe, shooting lanes.

One thing I learned from Rick Petersen when we gunned once together was as soon as the dog is sent for both gunners to immediately move behind the handler so as to help the dog focus on the handler and not errantly try to bring the bird to one of the gunners. Since that first time with Rick I always ask the handlers if they'd like us to do that. It definitely seems to help.

I hate call backs the way they are run at times. It's a totally phoney situation that's completely contrived that puts an enormous amount of pressure on both dog and handler.

However I truly believe that the retrieve is an extremely essential part of what makes the complete package of a bird dog and I think it should be a part of our trials.

As for should you have plead your case with the judges? NO! Usually that's just going to get them irritated. What you can do after you fail a call back is if you don't really understand why, once it's all over you can ask politely exactly what they saw so you can work on it for next time.

I've been fortunate in that since that first call back three years ago I've not had a dog fail one. Some of that is luck, but most of it is training for them diligently.

Watch as many call backs as you can and pay close attention to the more experienced handlers and you WILL learn.

Better luck next time. CR

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:44 pm

Jerry, John, and Charlie thanks again for helping clear some things up. I have worked so hard at trying to just keep my dog broke that I failed to look at the entire package and didnt train for it all. At least now I know what I need to work on and an idea of how to go about it.

If anyone else as anything to add I would greatly appreciate any info you care to share

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:43 am

The best thing to remember, "You are in charge, the judges judge the dog".

1. Make sure you know the placement of the bird, you watch them put it down.

2. Walk the dog on a lead to a down wind spot, whoa him and take the lead off, stand there a second and collect yourself.

3. Put the lead in your pocket or back of the vest.

4. Knowing the hunter orange is required, get all of that done before you get the dog.

5. Release dog with a tap on the head and an "ok".

6. Gunners with you at this point, and dog is working into the wind.

7. After point is established, try your best not to hurry, show the dog broke, position gunners to where you want them.

8. Very little talking if possible, whoa the dog if necessary and move up.

9. Flust the bird, if bird is on its back, touch it with your toe, roll it over and let it stand up, in a second if the bird does not flush, touch the bird again. (I have seen handlers kick the fire out of the bird and then wonder why it did not fly).

10. If kill is made, (you are watching the dog), I like to walk back to the dog to sent it. Not doubt about not breaking. Send the dog. I kinda like if they miss to just say "NO" otherwise they should say nothing.

11. Wait from where the dog left. As nervous as you may be, he will or should not need any help so don't hack on him. Give him time.

12. Bird is found and picked up, call him to you, whistle or mouth, and I likve to kneel down and show boat a bit.

13. If the dog locks on the bird, don't fight with him, take his left flank and lift and a slight pinch with left hand, lift and turn him to you and he will open. Nothing harsh here.

14. Give the bird to gunners and you are done. Collar as soon as possible.

This is how I train for a call back and I hope this is a little help to some. Being nervous is part of it. Do what you have to do to get the dog through it, help all that you can.

Pepper

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:12 pm

Good job Pepper. Nice progression in your list of what to do

Live AND Learn with the Call Backs Casper.

Better luck next time....and there WILL be a next time

After all...you have chosen to run with eh big dogs instead of the pocket rockets and the retrieve is a mandatory element to gaining that FC title.

Welcome to the nitty gritty of the competition. I have full faith in you and your dogs that you will reach your goals.

Rodger · Post by **Rodger** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:12 pm

Hotpepper wrote:

10. If kill is made, (you are watching the dog), I like to walk back to the dog to sent it. Not doubt about not breaking. Send the dog. I kinda like if they miss to just say "NO" otherwise they should say nothing.

Nice step through the progression Jerry.

One thing I might add to #10. .....I like to let it be known to the gunners beforehand, that if they kill the bird, to immediately open their guns and position themselves directly behind me. Less distraction as to where the dog needs to return to. This applies to hunt test (killing on course) as well as FT call backs.

Something to keep in mind for those that occasionally gun at these events.

One question for those judging call backs. I'm curious as to how you see them? Do they get either a pass or fail, or can a dog move up in the standing with a better retrieve effort shown.

One example? Say a dog breaks in the call back and is out, you bring up an alternate dog that was not in the original placements and that dog completes the CB with a better effort than any of the original group.

Any chance this dog can overtake the others due to a better call back showing.

Rodger

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:32 pm

What really annoys the bejesus out of me in callbacks is when the bird planter decides to plant the bird out in the wide open, asleep and on its back. Be fair to the dog - please, put it in some sort of bush, or tall grass, or SOMETHING so the dog doesn't walk up to it, think its dead, and pick it up.
I haven't blown a callback yet because of something like that, but I've had friends lose stakes from it. The situation is fake enough as it is, don't make it worse.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:42 pm

Rodger

In my humble opinion, my # 2 dog, if he was championship quality on course, would move up. and the same for the other placements, if the dog failing is my # 4 if I had a dog below I would move theat as well.

I have never had one move past higher dogs with a retireve, but I have seen dogs go the other way with a real poor job.

My #1 thing is the dog to be broke, turn to mark is ok, no steps to the bird though.

The people who have done the work should be rewarded with a placement I feel. They have to do a good job.

Pepper

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:33 pm

Roger,

When I am judging, I choose the top four placements by their performance on the course. The call-back may be considered a second series, but I will not change the order of the placements as long as they all point, stand steady-to-kill, and retrieve the bird to the handler. If I need to use a stand-by dog, he will not place higher than any of my first four dogs that survived the call-back.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:46 pm

I also have seen placements change because of quality of retrieve, and have done that myself as a judge, but it is very rare, and generally is between two performances where the judges are already really shaving hairs anyway. I can only remember doing it once myself, as a judge, and as I recall the situation, we had two very close dogs, one having done arguably slightly better on the course, then poorly on the retrieve, while the dog we moved up from second was masterful on the retrieve.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:58 pm

What really annoys the bejesus out of me in callbacks is when the bird planter decides to plant the bird out in the wide open, asleep and on its back. Be fair to the dog - please, put it in some sort of bush, or tall grass, or SOMETHING so the dog doesn't walk up to it, think its dead, and pick it up.

Yup it has happened to me, but guess who is ultimately to blame? Me the handler....I should have watched the planting and if I had seen where it was planted then explain the issue to the judges and hope for a new bird.

It's all part of the game. We are dealing with so many organic things involved, ie...people, dogs, birds, weather, etc that things probably are never goning to be perfect.

Thats why I think it so darn important for us as handlers or judges to pay close attention everytime we are involved. The only way we truely learn and improve is by drawing on past experiences.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:02 pm

original mngsp wrote: Yup it has happened to me, but guess who is ultimately to blame? Me the handler....I should have watched the planting and if I had seen where it was planted then explain the issue to the judges and hope for a new bird.

Thats why I think it so darn important for us as handlers or judges to pay close attention everytime we are involved. The only way we truely learn and improve is by drawing on past experiences.

Absolutely! What you said, times 10.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:38 pm

While apprentice judging I have seen judges change their placements based on the retrieve. But it was never the 1st place dog. From what I have seen when a Judge has a first place dog that dog stand out far better than the rest. Only once have I seen a judge struggle with which dog to give a first placement to. It came down to nit picking.

phermes1 wrote:What really annoys the bejesus out of me in callbacks is when the bird planter decides to plant the bird out in the wide open, asleep and on its back. Be fair to the dog - please, put it in some sort of bush, or tall grass, or SOMETHING so the dog doesn't walk up to it, think its dead, and pick it up.

This is essentialy what happened to me except the dog ran over the bird. Now I realized after discussing this with other that it was more my fault than it was the dogs

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:45 pm

Pepper to go against what you say in your step 10 before my call back I talk with a Pro trainer for some advise. He suggested that I not go back to the dog to send him that if I can verbally send him do so just make sure the Judges know that you are sending him so there is no doubt. He suggested a big arm movement along with the release/fetch command that is well heard.

His reasoning was the fact the dog looses his mark on the bird while he waits to be sent. With the distraction of the gunners and handler moving around the dog looses focus on where the bird fell. Instead he felt it was best to make sure the dog stood through the dead fall than send him/her ASAP.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:03 pm

It is simple, that is how I do it. If you have a big arm swing and then at some point in time have to throw a bird, guess what, a big arm swing with the bird in flight and the dog also. I have seen that happen a lot.

It is just part of the championship picture that you are defining for the judges. Of course, you can do as you wish. I have no problem with that, my way is not the only way.

Pepper

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:40 pm

Casper wrote:Pepper to go against what you say in your step 10 before my call back I talk with a Pro trainer for some advise. He suggested that I not go back to the dog to send him that if I can verbally send him do so just make sure the Judges know that you are sending him so there is no doubt. He suggested a big arm movement along with the release/fetch command that is well heard.

His reasoning was the fact the dog looses his mark on the bird while he waits to be sent. With the distraction of the gunners and handler moving around the dog looses focus on where the bird fell. Instead he felt it was best to make sure the dog stood through the dead fall than send him/her ASAP.

With all due respect to your pro, go tap your dog on the head!

For every 1 dog that has a problem marking the bird there are 100 that break early. Callbacks are not just about retrieving; they are about steadiness through the kill sequence. Most dogs that get dropped in a callback are done far before they every come near the dead bird.

I've seen gunners try to help the handler out by pointing at the dead bird. Guess what? The dog, hyped up as he knows what's coming, sees an arm and off he goes. I've seen handler get too excited and send his dog before the bird hit the ground. Heck, I've seen the handler sent the bird after the shot; problem was the bird wasn't hit. Dog is out chasing the bird as it flies away.

There are a lot of things that a dog can wrongly interpret as the handler remotely sending the dog. There are few, if any, things that the dog can wrongly interpret as being tapped on his head and his name being said with his handler standing inches away from him.

You're in a hunt test, or even a trial where they kill on course, and your dog is backing the front dog only a few feet away. When the other handler winds up and points to the bird and gives his dog a big 'ole FETCH!! and your dog just about comes out of his skin, you'll appreciate this.

If it looks like the dog isn't going to stay until you get to him, you can always send him remotely to save the day. But through training and repetition, your best bet as an amateur handler is to train your dog to expect to wait until you return and send him. No method is foolproof but this one gives you the best odds.

FWIW,
Dave

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:07 am

Dave

I agree, go tap the dog on the head.

My logic follows yours and I'd like to say that more often than not when I see a dog sent for a retrieve remotely either in a hunt test or a trial that dog is usually sent this way because of questions on steadiness.

Please allow enough time before sending your dog to prove steadiness. One of my big pet peeves in judging anything is that I hate to see handlers just trying to get by. Go out and show me a finished well trained polished dog, and do this with confidence.

Heck in a trial that quiet walk back to the dog with a quiet tap on the head for a release follwed by a prompt retrieve back to hand might be the seperator between walking away with a blue and some points and just another old ribbon.

Again, while this is perfect in my eyes you also have to do what it takes as a handler to get your dog through and keep him on the ground.