You be the judge

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:39 am

Had some friends encounter a situation during training this weekend that I thought was an interesting one. I know what the rules say, just wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

Anyway - friend's dog is sent for a retrieve. Dog gets to downed bird and picks it up - just as another bird flushes a few feet away. Dog gives chase with bird in mouth. Dog eventually breaks off chase and completes retrieve of original bird.
As an AKC judge, how would you handle this situation:

in SH?
in MH?
in a field trial?

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:10 am

I believe the dog will be done for that day. The big thing in my mind is the dog has picked up the bird that he was sent for and had it in his mouth at the time of the other bird flushing.

Dog should stop on that flushed bird and not chase at all as there shouldnt be any confusion if that might be the bird that he was sent for. Dog then should complete the retrieve.

Seems like that would be just one of those "o *hit" moments that happen in tests or trials. Not always fair but in the long run I believe you would catch a break somewhere and things even out in the longrun.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:15 am

I'll 2nd Chris in all of the above. The dog had the bird it was sent for, so there was no reason to go after a "winged bird". Should have STF.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:51 am

Seems like everyone is in perfect agreement.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:57 am

And got the right answer too. Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ezzy

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:02 am

and what if the event was NSTRA? Would that change things?

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:05 am

Yeah, that was the initial thought from the folks that had it happen. I was unsure and inclined to be a little more lenient, mainly because the rules state that a dog sent for a retrieve that encounters a 2nd bird can point, stop to flush or attempt to retrieve that 2nd bird without penalty, and it makes no distinction if the 2nd bird is encountered before or after the 1st bird is picked up. It's a good rule, just probably not written with this sort of situation in mind.

In either case, rules notwithstanding, I thought of what I would want a dog to do in that situation, and that would be to complete its retrieve, which would mean a STF on the 2nd bird.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:12 am

Phermes,

The difference as I see it is the bird flushed which means STF. If the dog points another bird on the retrieve I would have no problem with that and would be impressed. How you as a handler decide what to do then would be the question.

Ezzy

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:25 am

True. If that 2nd bird had stayed still and the dog had pointed, it would have been a much better situation for the dog.
I think Chris summed up the original situation pretty well, but let's talk about yours. Let's say the bird DID hold and the dog went on point with bird in mouth. What would you do as the handler?

Firstarrow · Post by **Firstarrow** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:48 am

As a hunter I'de say "holy cow, I've got an incredible dog."

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:58 am

Let's say the bird DID hold and the dog went on point with bird in mouth. What would you do as the handler?

This did happen to me once in a SH test. I looked at the judge and he said to work the bird. Flushed the bird, gunners killed it, released my dog for the retrieve, she dropped bird#1" and she went and retrieved the newly downed bird, all in order. Then sent her out to pickup bird#1 successfully. Got a qualifying score that day too

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:22 am

The crux of the situation to me is that, bird in mouth or not, the dog chased a bird that flushed and should not be rewarded for doing so. The dog should have STFed no matter what.

That said, it's a pretty odd situation. You can see where the dog might think that the second bird was supposed to be retrieved and would want to run it down to do so.

If it was my dog, I'd probably think: "Well, today is just not my day".

Best regards, Greg J.

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:43 am

I think we need to look at a dogs entire performance,and look at what the dog asked to do,to JUDGE a dog,not to look for mistakes to toss a dog.
In this situation,a dog was sent to retrieve a bird,how can we penalize a dog who attempts to bring more than one bird back?What if he had found another dead bird on the way in? thrown out for bringing two birds back?
in my eyes once the dog is sent for a retrieve,the only mistake it can make is not to bring a bird back,there is no steadiness in the word
retrieve.
If you wanted to be a real tough master level judge,how about failing a dog who stopped to flush,and did not retrieve the bird in mouth,without another command? as he was given a command,to retrieve and he did not do it,without another command.
A great example of how to be a rule watcher instead of a guy who is judgeing a dog.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:44 am

The crux of the situation to me is that, bird in mouth or not, the dog chased a bird that flushed and should not be rewarded for doing so. The dog should have STFed no matter what.

Maybe I don't understand where you're coming from, but this is where I would disagree. That he already had the first bird makes all the difference. If it was on its way out to retrieve and a bird flushed, I would have no problem with it chasing. It was told to go get a bird and bring it back. A dog is supposed to be able to retrieve wounded game, correct? I've had birds that got nailed and dropped like stones come back to life and fly off - my dog ran it down and got it and brought it back and got a 'good dog!' for his efforts.

That said, it's a pretty odd situation. You can see where the dog might think that the second bird was supposed to be retrieved and would want to run it down to do so.

If it was my dog, I'd probably think: "Well, today is just not my day".

I'm with you. It's an odd situation, and if we failed/got dumped for it, I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:58 am

A well trained dog would not chase in that situation. Here is the "real world hunting" reason why. You are hunting sharptails, your dog goes on point. Just for fun, let's say it is a very nice limb find and you have a long walk to get there, but the dog holds. On your approach, birds get up and you drop one. Your dog is steady at this point ... good dog ... and that gives you time to reload. You walk to the dog and send it for the retrieve. It goes out, picks up the bird, starts back, wild flushes a straggler, and instead of stopping to flush at that point it chases, taking out three or four more stragglers which are at this point out of range. Had the dog not chased, those birds, which walked out from under the point while you were getting there, would have held. After completing the retrieve, the dog would have found them, established point, and you would have filled out for the day.

That is the "real world" reason why we teach manners such as stop to flush and steady to wing and shot. So that the dog does not take out birds after the initial flush.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:42 am

phermes1 wrote:
The crux of the situation to me is that, bird in mouth or not, the dog chased a bird that flushed and should not be rewarded for doing so. The dog should have STFed no matter what.
Maybe I don't understand where you're coming from, but this is where I would disagree. That he already had the first bird makes all the difference. If it was on its way out to retrieve and a bird flushed, I would have no problem with it chasing. It was told to go get a bird and bring it back. A dog is supposed to be able to retrieve wounded game, correct? I've had birds that got nailed and dropped like stones come back to life and fly off - my dog ran it down and got it and brought it back and got a 'good dog!' for his efforts.

If my dog was sent on a retrieve and a bird got up like a surface-to-air missile and headed to the next county, I really would want him to STF rather than chase the bird.

OTOH, if the bird flapped around and barely made it into the air and went 10 feet, I'd want him to retrieve the bird.

It's the stuff in between those extremes that you just need to be there and see it...and give a dog the benefit of the doubt... to make a decent call.

I'll say that I have a bias toward a dog that is likes to STF. I just think it is classier and easier to deal with.

Best regards, Greg J.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:40 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:A well trained dog would not chase in that situation. Here is the "real world hunting" reason why. You are hunting sharptails, your dog goes on point. Just for fun, let's say it is a very nice limb find and you have a long walk to get there, but the dog holds. On your approach, birds get up and you drop one. Your dog is steady at this point ... good dog ... and that gives you time to reload. You walk to the dog and send it for the retrieve. It goes out, picks up the bird, starts back, wild flushes a straggler, and instead of stopping to flush at that point it chases, taking out three or four more stragglers which are at this point out of range. Had the dog not chased, those birds, which walked out from under the point while you were getting there, would have held. After completing the retrieve, the dog would have found them, established point, and you would have filled out for the day.

That is the "real world" reason why we teach manners such as stop to flush and steady to wing and shot. So that the dog does not take out birds after the initial flush.

Great post, John!

Judge a hunting dog game as if you were really hunting.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:48 pm

larue wrote:If you wanted to be a real tough master level judge,how about failing a dog who stopped to flush,and did not retrieve the bird in mouth,without another command? as he was given a command,to retrieve and he did not do it,without another command.

This is an example of a real negative master level judge. Since the situation changed because of the second bird flushing, a second command to finish the retrieve would be required to release the dog from the stop-to-flush.

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:26 pm

wannbe,and I look at throwing out a dog in a trial for chasing a bird,after he was sent for a retrieve negative judgeing.
The dog has already proven his steadiness,and has done well enough to be placed,or win,yet becouse of a screwed up callback,the dog gets nothing?
If I really had doubts,the fair thing would be to at least give the dog a clean try at another setup,and that is well within the judges ablity.

The thing you guys are not understanding is that the dog was sent for a retrieve,how can you fault a dog for trying to to retrieve what the dog comes accross after being sent?

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:13 pm

larue wrote:The thing you guys are not understanding is that the dog was sent for a retrieve, how can you fault a dog for trying to to retrieve what the dog comes across after being sent?

Because he already has the shot bird in his mouth. :roll:

friend's dog is sent for a retrieve. Dog gets to downed bird and picks it up - just as another bird flushes a few feet away. Dog gives chase with bird in mouth. Dog eventually breaks off chase and completes retrieve of original bird.

Just because you send a dog for a retrieve, doesn't mean that he no longer has to use his manners around live birds. As a judge, would you leave him on the ground if he flushed and chased every bird out of the field before completing the retrieve of the shot bird?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:31 pm

In NSTRA the dog should be severily penalized so if he retrieve finally ended in hand I would score it very very low for the breech of manners if the dog had the bird when it went of a chase and then it doesn't end up finishing the retrive it will be scored a zero.
I would also knock the obedience score pretty hard cause the dog is also not being obedient as I will bet the owner is going to be calling the dog while the dog is blowing him or her off while making chase

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:28 pm

It seems pretty obvious to me that the dog chased a flying bird. SH, MH and Field Trials all disqualify for that breach of manners.

As far as hunting goes, if I send the dog for the retrieve and the bird flushes and flies I want the dog stopping. I am going to try to shoot a flying bird, even if I did shoot it once already, and I don't want the dog getting in the way. When (if) the bird goes back down I will release the dog from it's stop with another fetch command. Wild chases after flying birds is never acceptable manners.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:12 pm

OK here's one for you.

In our last MH test Pearl pointed a covey of 4 - 5 birds. I flushed the birds, gunner shot one bird. The other birds didn't fly very far out. I sent her out for the retrieve. At about 30 ft. out she stopped and went on point on another bird while going out for the retrieve. This bird that she pointed was about another 20 ft. in front of her. I looked at the judge and asked him what he wanted me to do as it varies from judge to judge. He told me that I had sent her out for a retrieve so she HAD to complete that retrieve. I had to force her to break point and complete the retrieve on the downed bird. She did it beautifully but it really irked me!

Now as a hunter and a judge I personally would have had her work that second bird. This judge is not a real hunter. Just plays the game on the shooting preserve to get titles on his dogs.

What is everyone else's take on this situation?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:29 pm

No, he was right. The preferable thing would be for the dog to complete the retrieve. Real world. You shoot a sharptail, dog marks it, you send dog for the retrieve. The dog stops somewhere along the way to point another bird. Can't be faulted for that. But you then work that bird and shoot it, having the dog make the retrieve, and go to find the first bird only to discover that it ran off, and the ground is too dry for the dog to pick up a track. Lost bird. The retrieve is never completed.

This one is very advanced, and personally, I would think hard about throwing a dog out that stopped to point and could not be made to break point by voice command. But the best performance would be to have the dog complete the retrieve. That is the way it is judged. If your dog was trained well enough to complete the retrieve in that way, then it is a very good dog.

It is too easy, in these planty bird events, to think planty bird. That first bird, being a planty bird, isn't going anywhere cause it has neither run nor fly in it to start with, but planty bird events are meant to mimic the real world. Think real world and the dog should complete the retrieve.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:03 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:What is everyone else's take on this situation?

I hope I never get a chance to see such a situation.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:40 am

In NSTRA now this is tricky...if the dog flushes a bunch of birds all those birds become marked for 3 mintues and the dog must go for the retrieve

BUT if the dog goes on a retrieve and points a bird which wasn't known about then the dog is given an average of the retrieves and scored on the point and handler gunner is to go flush and shoot that bird for retrieve

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:44 pm

But the best performance would be to have the dog complete the retrieve. That is the way it is judged. If your dog was trained well enough to complete the retrieve in that way, then it is a very good dog.

Well thank you, Wagonmaster! Yes in fact I did give her the fetch command and she broke point and continued on to the shot bird and completed the retrieve.

These birds had not been planted that morning. We were the first brace out and there were quite a few birds coveyed up from the previous day.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:12 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:....This bird that she pointed was about another 20 ft. in front of her. I looked at the judge and asked him what he wanted me to do as it varies from judge to judge. He told me that I had sent her out for a retrieve so she HAD to complete that retrieve. I had to force her to break point and complete the retrieve on the downed bird. She did it beautifully but it really irked me!

Now as a hunter and a judge I personally would have had her work that second bird. This judge is not a real hunter. Just plays the game on the shooting preserve to get titles on his dogs.

What is everyone else's take on this situation?

The AKC guidelines clearly state that the intial retrieve is "poisoned" and that the dog should recieve a call-back if no other bird was found.

As John stated, the best piece of work is for the dog to complete the retrieve.

Pam, you state that when you judge you like to have the handler work the second bird, but what about the first bird? Does the dog get two retrieves? One for the second bird, and then back to the first bird?

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:40 pm

My thought is to be fair to the dog. It is extremely hard on a dog to have to break point on that live bird and go on to retrieve the dead bird. It can also set the dog up to start jumping in on birds if it is forced to break point and retrieve. You could inadvertantly cause the dog to retrieve that live bird.

Yeah you are right about the "poisoned" retrieve. I'm just thinking about real life hunting situations I guess!