With Holding Placements

[ezzy333]

I can not believe what I am reading.
First: If you asked me 10 years ago what am all age was I would have given you a great diffination, than I got one and knew I did not know what I was talking about.
Second: You can not define an all age with words, it's like porn you know it when you see it.
Third: An all age is suppose to do pretty much what a shooting dog does but to the extreme! The differance between a major league player and an all star, hall of famer.
Fourth: The idea of lowering the standards, or "keep running them till you get one" is about the most dumest thing I have ever herd! As far as I am conserned the standards need to be increased not lowered. This is for the sake of the breed, National Champions produce National Champions! When you breed crap to crap you get worse grap! This is done for the bettermint of the breed not to satisfy some ones micro ego.
Fifth: You can not learn what any of these dogs are suppose to do in front of a computer, you need to get out there and watch and listen to the people that have done this for years and years. The saying that shut up and learn dose truly apply here. Go watch that Abby dog that Dennis runs, Penny, Griz and Zack that Eldon runs. Go talk to Keith and Robbi about Slick and Burjan about Saddle. Ask others about Clown, Stevie, Siran, Thunder, meny of Steigers dogs, all the other great all age dogs we have had and seen, you may learn something and as I did, realize what a fool I was making of myself by trying to define the undefineable. This is a great sport, it is sport of opinions, but before you state and opinion know what you are talking about.

First off, welcome to the board. YOur comment about not knowing what you are talking about till you have done it is well taken. Maybe the same thing applies to posting here on the board. I think once you have been here a while you may realize that many of the people posting here on this thread and on the board are the owners and handlers of many of the dogs you are talking about.

I think everyone will accept what you have just posted as your opinion and I agree with what you said

but before you state and opinion know what you are talking about

. Excellent advice. I can add to that to, make sure you listen to other peoples opinions as you might learn something also. Thats what we do on this board, and it has been a wonderful site to learn from and also to chat with some friends that you have made right here.

JMO
Ezzy

[R-Heaton]

Joe,, all good points.

Fourth: The idea of lowering the standards, or "keep running them till you get one" is about the most dumest thing I have ever herd! As far as I am conserned the standards need to be increased not lowered. This is for the sake of the breed, National Champions produce National Champions!

I think I could get on board with this idea but with AA entries averaging 12.62 dogs raising the standards wouldn't do anything for the sport. I do find it odd when National Champion calibur dogs break on there birds. The only National Champion ever to produce a National Champion I thought was Red Water Rex producing Rex's Cherokee Jake?

I am curious on what you have against running a second series until you have a champion? To me people spend alot of time and money and a good judge ought to be looking to find the best dog.

I have never been to the Eureka or Boonville but is the quality of the AA really getting that bad?

[myerstenn]

With all due respects gentlemen, all you have to do is get a judging assignment and you can have all the call backs you want. Like the old judge said after the trial was over!! They wanted my opinion and thats what i gave em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Joe Amatulli]

No that is not correct Rex is not the only NFC to produce an NFC, Saddle, Clown?, both Slicks, produced more than one, these are the dogs of today that I know, I do not know all of the NFCs that produced NFCs, but the facts remain the same breed the best to the best and you will get better. If you look at the back round of meny of our NFC both all age and shooting dog you will find a paturn that National Champions produce National Champions.

As far as a running them again, that is not the way the game is played, I have no problem bringing back my best ALL AGE dogs that were birdless for no fawlt of there own, but to keep running them because you don't have an all age is dum.

[R-Heaton]

but to keep running them because you don't have an all age is dum

In an AA trial I assume a dog has to show AA moves the whole way through the hour? The dog probably has to be as strong when he finishes as when he started? So this beeing said,, if dog is down for the first 15 or 20 minutes and has only a SD race would it be ok for the judges to ask the handler and dog to go back to the truck? From what I have read on the forum pros like to be told when they are not winning,,, and would just soon a judge be honest with them if they are not making money?

[Joe Amatulli]

R-Heaton no the quialty of AA is not that it is getting that bad, but we are very quickly running out of AA. Why I do not know I can only guess I personally beleive that DNA testing has a lot to do with it and also I do not beleive that there are that meny people that want to have one, me included. Don't get me wrong I love to watch them, but the idea of getting a dog around 1 in 10 times does no appeal to me. Regardless these are the dogs to breed to. I would not want to have owned Saddle, but I bread to him, I under no circumstances would want to run Nuke, but I bread to him. History shows that these types of dogs tent to produce outstanding shooting dogs, which is what I run.

Ezzy sorry for comming off so strong, and thanks for the welcome. You can with out a dought tell the ones that have walked the walk and those who are just talking the talk. Like I said this is a great game, it is honest and fair, but luck does come into play and sometime you may have the best dog, but luck is just againest you, that is just part of the game. Lowering the standards only services to lower the breed. Just keep in mind why we do this, TO IMPROVE THE BREED! Not to satisfy some ones ego.

[Joe Amatulli]

R-Heaton Some Judges will tell a pro it is time to start over and it is exceptable, just keep in mind that the handler does not have to. Personally if a pro does not know that he is not getting it done he is not much of a pro.

To awnser another question about dogs takeing birds at a trial I beleive that has to do with the quailty of the pros that are out there today. Meny of them do not work as hard as they should and use trials to train at, and tomany owner do not realize what is going on, again you do not lower the standards, improve, work harder!!!!!

[Mike Clutter]

Haven't been here in a while. I just read all seven pages of this at someones suggestion. So far one of the best threads in a while. I agree with a lot of what is said.
first .... ezzy.. Mr. Amatulli has won more championships with one dog than most of us who are trialing will do in our wildest dreams. Don't over moderate it's a turn off.
second.....whether it's akc or af people have to realize that each breed club dictates how their trials will be run. (to withhold or not) The shorthair world has always had a history of withholding championship placements. Don't like it? don't trial. or get a DK Sorry for that.
third.....like it or not R Heaton is spot on about showing your dog or showing the judges what they like to see. If you can do that with your dog you got something. Teamwork, that dog is working with you.( another trait people are leaving out TRAINABILITY.)
fourth....AA Dogs, true ones, more often than not are made not born. That is why they better the breed across the board. And that is why some pros don't campaign AA dogs.



Rich, I would really like to train with ya sometime if you got the room. I could learn to like that part of the country.

And to the mods....I would like to nominate Joe Amatulli to the gdf HOF for the qoute " It's Like porn......" CLASSIC!!!!!!

[R-Heaton]

but the idea of getting a dog around 1 in 10 times does no appeal to me.

Joe this is exactly my point with the judges and the mindset of the NGSPA. That an AA is some big run off dog that only finishes 1 in 10 times out. That is not AA nor is what we should be breeding to. That is what is meant by "lowering of standards" trying to find the dog that didn't run off that day is not bettering the breed. Now finding the dog that showed ground speed, application, and ran to the limits of where he could stay in touch with his handler might be AA. But stuff I read about that people ooh and aw over is a little weird to me,,,, dogs being lost for 3 days, dogs being found 18 miles away in a different town,,, thats not AA thats run off.

[DGFavor]

Based on most of the recent NGSPA AA stakes I've competed in, I believe "the GSP folks" (sorry to generalize!) have lost perspective of what an AA performance really is - and cripes, I've won a couple of 'em. I guarantee you many of our GSP's will "outrun" most of the AA pointers and setters I hunt, train and compete with but they won't beat 'em cause they'll get out birddogged and they won't finish. We're kidding ourselves if we think watching handler, scout, and dog all disappear at the breakaway and the one crew that finds a dog on point wins is improving anything. When none of the entrants can pull that off, nobody wins - that's happening alot it seems. That's my impression of the state of NGSPA AA stakes these days - I've talked to more than a couple pro GSP handlers that feel the same way but they've gotta prepare their client's dogs for what is winning, not what they think should win.

The dogs I've hunted/trained/competed with that have competed at or had qualifications for THE Nat'l Championship (Murray's Rustler, Tommy B, Spectre Sam, Spectre Pete, Idaho's Lucky Strike, probably a few others that I can't recall - Rich, who else does Richie take hunting/training when we go??) They don't get lost, they don't get found in a city 20 miles away, you watch 'em work the limits of the country hunting for birds - and they find 'em. I just watched the NW Chukar AA, a Nat'l Qualifier, a couple weeks ago. While I didn't see every brace, the pace and practices were not much different than what we do out hunting that very same country. I know there were a couple lost dogs, they didn't win. There were 4 or 5 dogs that could have been used and the winner, Spectre Pete, rolled out through that country looking just like he does when we have hunted with him in that country. The scout hardly left the gallery. Rich Heaton, on this list, finished with 4 finds on his Ben dog and contended for a win which would have qualified him for entry to the big show at Ames. Probably would have all been withheld elsewhere!

Rich, you're judging a Nat'l Qualifier in California next month aren't ya'? I'd have done it with ya' but it's hunting season man, what're ya' thinkin'??

[R-Heaton]

Mike,,,so are you Joe (love the discussion) your welcome out here anytime,,,, but its hunting season now so better bring your shotgun. Our bird hatch has been spotty but from what I am seeing the mixed bag is still going to be available,,, not sure how many times last year we would get cracks out quail, chukar and huns, even got a pheasant or two all in the same 2 hour loop. Should be out today but raining and apparently we melt when it rains,,, it was nicer when we had $100 pump shotguns that nobody cared if they got wet,,, but now one drop on the fine doubles and people start to cry.

Ok,, back to getting on Joe's nerves.

[DGFavor]

but now one drop on the fine doubles and people start to cry.

Not me man, rust is a preservative. Used 'ol Browny to pry a gate open the other day.

[ezzy333]

Lowering the standards only services to lower the breed

I do not see where naming a winner is effecting the standard. I agree the standard should not be changed unless the all of participants of the sport votes to do it. But I see little corrilation to field trials standards and breed standards.

Just keep in mind why we do this, TO IMPROVE THE BREED! Not to satisfy some ones ego

But this one I would disagree with completely. We may do it to improve the ability of our dogs to run and win a trial but we make little or no effort to improve the breed. These breeds were all developed to hunt and I think you would be hard pressed to ever find anything that says the developers were trying to see how big a dog can run. If I had no concern for the breeds and wanted to own a big running dog that would win a trial and make me feel good I'd breed to the AA dogs possibly but if I am breeding good hunting dogs or dogs that conform to the breed standard, AA dogs would not be the place I would look. Give me the outstanding dog my neighbor owns, or a gundog that finds more birds than the other dogs in the field that demonstrates the good nose , biddability, and is a good example of the breed standard and I will be able to keep working at improving the breed. If I am out on the prairies then I want a dog that can range and find birds but if I am hunting 20 to 80 acre feilds with fairly heavy cover like we do here in the mid-west then the dog would have little reason or chance to be much over 50 to 100 yards and many times may be working within a 20 yard range. Big running dogs have seldom improved the ability of the dog we need for the walking hunter and more often than not is the number one problems we have.

If egos aren't a big factor why do people buy a dog that a handler has in their string and is doing all it can do already to improve the breed. It's the only way they can get their name in the records but they leave the dog with the handler so the dog is theirs in name only but it satisfies the ego. Happens quite often.

Good dogs are dogs that do the job we want them to do. Much of that depends where you hunt or what games you like to play but no one venue is better than the rest.

Ezzy

[Joe Amatulli]

Mike I do very much agree with you on all counts but one an AA is born not made. An AA is more the mind set of the dog rather than ablity, something in that dogs head says I can not stop till I find a bird!!! It would be very diffecult to put that in a dogs head. Also a run off is a run off not an AA, they still have to show themselves and pretty much do everything that a shooting dog has to do.

Ezzy you keep breeding to that hunting dog down the road and continue to be an also ran. Feild trials has more to do with a show, preformance, desire, than just hunting. If you are happy to win a little league game fine, I play to win Nationals, don't try to lower the standards to a hunting dog.

[Joe Amatulli]

Mike thanks for the complament, just one more point about AA. They are truly a breed of thier own and require an unbelievable amount of time, much more than a shooting dog which most pros in the GSP world simply do not put into them. After all, I am sure you can train 2 shooting dogs and 5 gun dog in the same time, time the AA dogs simply do not get. I beleive that is why you do see many pros run thier big shooting dog in the AA, this does not help the breed!!!!!

[DGFavor]

I play to win Nationals, don't try to lower the standards to a hunting dog.

Hands down, one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted. IMO there is no higher calling than being a good hunting dog, it's what most trial dogs should aspire to be. It embarasses me Joe as a fellow GSP fan to hear you hold a hunting dog in such low regard. It's no wonder there is such little bird work in our AA stakes anymore when it is of such little importance. Souring big time on the competitve shorthair world if this is the attitude of it's major participants.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

If egos aren't a big factor why do people buy a dog that a handler has in their string and is doing all it can do already to improve the breed. It's the only way they can get their name in the records but they leave the dog with the handler so the dog is theirs in name only but it satisfies the ego. Happens quite often.

Good dogs are dogs that do the job we want them to do. Much of that depends where you hunt or what games you like to play but no one venue is better than the rest.

Ezzy

Ezzy~You are absolutely right, I found myself in this very situation, and it took me quite a while to realize it. I think that sometimes we all need to sit back and remember why we got into dogs to begin with. TO HUNT BIRDS WITH THEM!!! I don't think that any of us woke up one morning and thought "I'm going to go out and get my very first dog and start field trialing." I'm pretty sure we all progressed into it over time. Am I wrong???

Sure, if you make a ton of money and have it to burn, then having a dog with a pro all of the time is pretty cool, but for the average guy or gal it's just not feasible.

A lot of BIG egos in field trialing if you ask me. Not all, but quite a few. But then again, it's like that in all competitive sports.

Doug

[Joe Amatulli]

Doug you miss my point, not all dogs fit all places, but the best produce the best just not all the time and what is not feild trial material are often great hunting dogs and although you may have a great hunting dog you will often wind up with possibly great hunting dogs but also not all the time. Some will only be great pets. As I understand what Ezzy is saying that hunting dogs are the highest level and that is what should be bread, this far from fact. It also sounds like Ezzy wants to lower the standards to the accomodate his hunting dog. Again feild trials are not just about hunting it is a "show" these dogs need to do more than just hunt and by the way I hunt all my dogs! For you to make the statement that AA can not find birds makes me wonder if you understand the concept of an AA, and just because they are AA that does not mean that they can not find birds. Talk to Stieger I am sure he'll give you an ear full.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

I play to win Nationals, don't try to lower the standards to a hunting dog.

Hands down, one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted. IMO there is no higher calling than being a good hunting dog, it's what most trial dogs should aspire to be. It embarasses me Joe as a fellow GSP fan to hear you hold a hunting dog in such low regard. It's no wonder there is such little bird work in our AA stakes anymore when it is of such little importance. Souring big time on the competitve shorthair world if this is the attitude of it's major participants.

Doug~I AGREE 100%!!!


I want to hunt with you, you're my kind of birddogger!!! Alex too!!

Say to hi to Alex for me, I don't know if he remembers me, but we were braced together at a GSP of NE trial in a AM Derby with his Smoke and my Rocky. Smoke's a heck of a nice dog!!!

Doug

[3Britts]

Doug you miss my point, not all dogs fit all places, but the best produce the best just not all the time and what is not feild trial material are often great hunting dogs and although you may have a great hunting dog you will often wind up with possibly great hunting dogs but also not all the time. Some will only be great pets. As I understand what Ezzy is saying that hunting dogs are the highest level and that is what should be bread, this far from fact. It also sounds like Ezzy wants to lower the standards to the accomodate his hunting dog. Again feild trials are not just about hunting it is a "show" these dogs need to do more than just hunt and by the way I hunt all my dogs! For you to make the statement that AA can not find birds makes me wonder if you understand the concept of an AA, and just because they are AA that does not mean that they can not find birds. Talk to Stieger I am sure he'll give you an ear full.

Well Joe, I have stayed out of this thread for awhile but find that I must side with ezzy on this one. Just because someone decides not to run their dog in aa, does not mean that they are not of a calibre or higher than many aa dogs. Some of us do not care to run aa but to hunt our dogs instead. We find it very pleasing to hunt our gundogs. Why do I say this? My Tania is my aa dog. She can run as big as any dog that I have seen at trials and bigger than most. All this with a pedigree that boast only two trial dogs of any kind. My Ron is a gundog by choice as I intended to hunt him until they members of the local Brittany club and some others convinced me to trial him. So, now I run him in GD stakes. His pedigree host an entire pack of HofF dogs and Champions. He is a bird finder and a family dog. IMO, a good hunting dog is worth more than a good aa dog in that it will give pleasure to more people. There is more than one way to prove your dog is the best. More than one type of test of endurance, hunting ability and running ability. To say, as some on this thread have, that only aa dogs have the stamina to run all day is beyond a joke. My dogs, all three, will run as long as I want to hunt and they will do it in the mountains where the wild prey live.
To put it simply, bird dogs are hunting dogs. Born to find birds. Field trials are a man made test that has altered their basic function. The best of any birddog breed are those who, after spending a day out in the field with you, are those that sit in your lap, at your feet or in front of your fire afterward. Not one that is slapped out in a kennel when training is done and only bragged about. The best dogs are hunting companions.

[R-Heaton]

Now see Joe,,, aren't ya glad you joined up. You single handling have brought separation between the hunters and the trialers.

I do think that is why I like West Coast trialing,,, for the most part the winning dogs are also quality hunting dogs. I have seen alot of Rich Robertson's AA string run trials and have also hunted behind them in in some of Idaho's roughest chukar territory,,, and they beat me there too. Richy's big line to me was,,,, "Rich you gotta slow him down,, I have found way to many birds out here for you to have found none". I think he was putting his 7th bird in the saddle bag shot over Tommy B and Murray's Rustler(he had 2 AA dogs down and couldn't find find my one),,, while I was pulling my tracker out and holding my "shocker" over my head trying to get my dog to come out of the country and look me up. My point being if we are trying to improve the breed they gotta be bird dogs first then lets put some run to them and go win some field trials. Its what makes the great ones great,, all bird dog and run. I think that is where the GSP world has gone wrong or is a transition period at least. You read way to much about poor bird work or lost dogs,,, I think the mindset is to not put to much pressure on them or that will shut them down and you won't have the run. IMO the mindset should be get them "right on the birds", teach them to hunt and to look you up, pattern to the front,,, a dog has to want to come and go with you,,,, and then if they want to open back up and run a forward pattern you have an AA dog. But I bet most of the time you have yourself a first class SD and for some weird reason that by most is like a lesser dog.

[ezzy333]

Well said guys. I have to agree whole heartedly with Doug and 3 Brits both. If we want to see more dogs compete in an AA stake make it more realistic we will draw more people. When running big becomes more important than finding birds whether in a trial or in the field we are losing our way. I love a dog that will cover a lot of ground but it better be hunting and not just running and I think in many cases that is what we have placed. And if none of the dogs run big enough we with hold the placxement even if the dog is finding birds. How often have all of us heard "the dog found to many birds and didn't have a chance to run?" This is what loses many of us. I can not fault any dog for finding too many birds. Thats like faulting a horse that pulls too much or a pigeon who flys too fast. There are so many ways to judge the worth of a dog and most of them are in the field and home.

Ezzy

[High Roll-N-Angel]

When running big becomes more important than finding birds whether in a trial or in the field we are losing our way.

I AGREE!

How often have all of us heard "the dog found to many birds and didn't have a chance to run?"

I've heard that one too, and finding birds.... isn't that the object of the game?

My point being if we are trying to improve the breed they gotta be bird dogs first then lets put some run to them and go win some field trials. Its what makes the great ones great,, all bird dog and run. I think that is where the GSP world has gone wrong or is a transition period at least. You read way to much about poor bird work or lost dogs,,, I think the mindset is to not put to much pressure on them or that will shut them down and you won't have the run. IMO the mindset should be get them "right on the birds", teach them to hunt and to look you up, pattern to the front,,, a dog has to want to come and go with you,,,, and then if they want to open back up and run a forward pattern you have an AA dog. But I bet most of the time you have yourself a first class SD and for some weird reason that by most is like a lesser dog.

Totally agree... Bird dog first then run..running will do you no good if you don't have a good bird dog.

This has been a great thread with some great opinions, statements, and conversations shared and discussed.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

This has been a great thread with some great opinions, statements, and conversations shared and discussed.

How very true, and everyone is even being civil. This is the way it should be. Way to go guys.

Doug

[ezzy333]

Hey,

You all are part of it. Thanks to all of you.

Ezzy

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

Ezzy~This one might need to go into the HOF!!

Doug

[ezzy333]

I think it sure would be good reading for any one that is interested. Many view points brought up and discussed. Will see what I can do!

Thanks again guys.

Ezzy

[R-Heaton]

or a pigeon who flys too fast

If I have heard that one once I have heard it a million times,,,,, lol,,,,, you need to get some new training buddies.

I thought we were all in agreement,,,, bird dogs first,,,,, a pigeon doesn't count.

[Joe Amatulli]

Heaton you are 100% correct they do need to be bird dogs first, and in the GSP world to many have consentrated on run, if you knew what I run you would know. But the idea of changing the standards is as redickuless as I have ever heard. Dogs are different some are hunting dogs, some are gun dogs, some are shooting dogs and some are AA. That is what they are changing an AA Championship to a Gun dog stake because that is not what you have is dum. Like I said I run big shooting dogs and do hunt them all and they will find birds with the best of them. Don't tell me that we must change a long time standard because there are not enough dogs to compete at that level, get better dogs, work harder, get a better trainer!

[Joe Amatulli]

I am in the North East where I have seen a number of AKC trials changed to accomadate lesser quailty dogs, courses that you need to make a hard turn 50 yd. from the brack away, no scouting, birds planted on the hourse path, judges that have never won a broke dog stake etc. etc. etc. Dogs being used that can not possibly be competetive at the nationals, if you put up a dog that can not win in any other circle than why are you using that dog? I have been competing at the national level for a good 15 years and never see any of these dog, why? When your standards are not that of the Nationals you are heading in the wrong way. If you have a hunting dog GREAT hunt your heart out, if you are into hunt tests more power to you, but don't come into the feild trial world a say it must change to your standards, please go home. It is an insult to all the dogs and people that have been there before, it cheapens the titles, and accumplishment of these great dogs.

[Mike Clutter]

I think what we are seeing is just a transition in the breed, pointers did it too, and now look at their national champ 13 finds in the three hours!! Now in a trial setting that is about as good as it gets. Both camps(hunters and trialers) should look at that, a good blend of bird finding ability and athleticism.
I don't think most weekend trialers understand the kind of mental conditioning let alone the physical aspect of a three hour stake. Read the field and you will see that finds for the winner are on the rise, not all of them, but a lot more than there used to be.
Run was all everyone wanted then they said wait these are supposed to be bird dogs!!

I see Joe just said what I was going to so I'll stop.


but back to the dogs... doc favor, you are a heck of a guy from what I can tell, and you have some great dogs(or you wouldn't be winning). I don't get your deal with how you think trials should be run. You hunt and train in the type of country that you need an AA dog, and that is obviously what you have or you wouldn't win as much as you do. So why the sour grapes? I don't buy the Opie act for a second. I think you are that much of a competitor ,you hate losing, we all do. Do you think we should lessen requirements for winning championships? In my mind it lessens the dogs and believe me, you don't want to hunt THAT type of country with what most of the guys here in Iowa think is a good dog.

See then it can get into a whole 'nother can o' worms " cheap titles"

[Mike Clutter]

I think it is safe to say that most of us in this thread, Joe, Rich both Dougs and I, agree on what an AA dog should be. The change doesn't happen over night though. And you also can't just breed whatever bitch you want to an AA champ and get the pups you want. I think we have too many trialers that think they can be breeders and pros also. Two pieces of paper don't make a dog. And I'll admit I'm as guilty as the next guy. Seems like the Dollar is winning out over the Dog.

How many poor people own a national champ? Not me.not YET.

[High Roll-N-Angel]

I personally know two people with National Champs...they are not poor, but they aren't made of money either....and one has done it ALL himself and the other one had only some help from a pro now and then. And these two dogs I speak of are great dogs!
NAGDC FC AFC Prairie's Edge Tippy
NAFC FC AFC Cebourns Shake Rattle N Roll

[3Britts]

I think that the problem we are having here is that the AA experts keep calling all other dogs "lesser quality dogs" when in fact, they aren't. I keep seeing that phrase being used. How on earth do you get a lesser quality dog that finds more birds. I hunt at least twice a month with a couple of friends who run and win AA. Each of these dogs is what keep being called a "quality dog." But, they would not call my dogs lesser quality because I "simply" run gundog stakes. They know the quality of my dogs and love to see them run, hunt and love to hunt behind them. My dogs consistantly find more wild birds and run as well as their dogs. I just have mine trained to run in gundog range.
Bettering the breed has got to be more than creating big running dogs. It has to be creating a better bird dog. One that can find birds. It make more sense to breed dogs together that have stamina, hunting intensity and bird finding ability. You will notice that I did not say "run." Stamina is the ability to hunt long periods of time while covering the ground needed. In a real hunting situation, you do not need to cover the intire country hunted but, those areas where birds are most likely to be found. And, in that same situations, I do not want to have to use tracking equipment to find where my dog is on point. Esspecially since I prefer to hunt on foot.
So, lets lose that phrase, "lesser quality dog," shall we.

[High Roll-N-Angel]

I agree with you 3Britts.

[Mike Clutter]

If you read that post again you will see that he doesn't call NON AA dogs lesser quality. He said in his experience out east, at the trials he goes to, they are lessening the standards( across the board not just AA) to accommodate lesser dogs thus cheapening the titles whether it be puppy/derby, gun dog etc. heck he's right, we see it here in the mid west to at a lot of small weekend trials. Thus making the east coast FC less of a dog than one in the west or mid west in theory.

There are standards for a reason. his point .... an FC in Maine should be on the same level as an FC in Idaho be it gun dog or AA.

It's like the little league BS where everyone gets a trophy.... it doesn't teach kids if you lose, to work harder. It teaches them to not work.
a half ASSED job will get rewarded just as much as a good job.
If the pros are winning at trials run like that where is the incentive to work harder to achieve more?

mediocrity breeds mediocrity.

[3Britts]

If you read that post again you will see that he doesn't call NON AA dogs lesser quality. He said in his experience out east, at the trials he goes to, they are lessening the standards( across the board not just AA) to accommodate lesser dogs thus cheapening the titles whether it be puppy/derby, gun dog etc. heck he's right, we see it here in the mid west to at a lot of small weekend trials. Thus making the east coast FC less of a dog than one in the west or mid west in theory.

There are standards for a reason. his point .... an FC in Maine should be on the same level as an FC in Idaho be it gun dog or AA.

It's like the little league BS where everyone gets a trophy.... it doesn't teach kids if you lose, to work harder. It teaches them to not work.
a half ASSED job will get rewarded just as much as a good job.
If the pros are winning at trials run like that where is the incentive to work harder to achieve more?

mediocrity breeds mediocrity.

Hate to disagree with you on this Mike, But the phrase "less of a dog" is misleading. Just as saying that to get the best dogs you need to start with an AA dog. Its simply not true. I may not trial at the pro level, but I understand that the nature of a birddog is not to run trial. It may be a way to highlight certain aspects of a given dog but, it is not the end all, beat all test of a better birddog. That, imo, is proven in a real hunt. Would that dog be able to find wild birds? Just because trials are the standard for trialers, does not mean it is the correct standard. Just because AA dog standards have been around for so long does not mean that there is no room for improvement.
Of course you want to start a breeding programm with great dogs, but those dogs do not have to be AA dogs. The vast majority of hunters would pull their hair out when trying to hunt a dog at that distance. Most want a close hunting dog to wald behind while hunting with the kids.
Don't ge me wrong, there are many AA dogs that I would consider breeding. Many that I enjoy watching run and hunt. It doesn't make them better dogs as has been stated on this thread.
Now, to get back to why placements should be withheld. There really is no standard. Many judges have an idea of how a dog should run in the various stakes and tries to fit each dog into that picture. If none fit, placements are withheld. Again, the problem is that each judge has his or her own idea of what that model is. Its subjective and we will never have one true standard that every judge will follow completely. 'nough said.

[DGFavor]

doc favor, you are a heck of a guy from what I can tell, and you have some great dogs(or you wouldn't be winning). I don't get your deal with how you think trials should be run. You hunt and train in the type of country that you need an AA dog, and that is obviously what you have or you wouldn't win as much as you do. So why the sour grapes?

Oh man, no sour grapes here - sorry if it came off that way! I think Dave Quindt stated it best somewhere when he called these discussions "peer review" - discussing the state of affairs as we see 'em in our games!! And I'm really not a competitive person to be honest - the only competition might be to leave the trial with more friends than I started with. I confess to vigorously preparing for one certain trial that I do show up to with the game face on but all the rest are just social outings with the hope that the dogs and I won't embarass ourselves. We embarassed ourselves good at the NW Chukar Ch. last week. Bugsy was back on the dog truck within about a minute and Trixie not much longer! So now I'm gonna switch from the withholding placements debate to arguing for Mulligans/do-overs.

I'm forever a proponent that "we're still running bird dogs boys" and to me that implies the dogs maintain some dedicated functionality and purpose to the task at hand, which at it's core is finding birds isn't it?

I'm an easy going dude I promise!!

[R-Heaton]

I don't buy the Opie act

Lol,,,, Opie,, thats a good one

Back to the talk of cheap titles,,, what is opinions of National Titles. I think in the GSP world there is over a dozen or so National Titles. To me this cheapens the title,, in the "pointer world" there is one,, and its at Ames and if you win that it will say so on your pedigree NC,, no other way to get an NC but to win back at Ames. I when I say "pointer world" that is sarcastic,,, all breeds are invited and given the same opportunity. But to have National titles for every little niche your dog might fill isn't that using the "little league" baseball theory, where everybody gets a ribbon?

[High Roll-N-Angel]

I just checked AKC website and there were only 5 National titles I found that could be put on a GSP in the AKC side. And they are seperated Am and pro, which is only fair.
NAFC
NAGDC
NOGDC
NFC
NGDC

Let me know if there are others I missed on the AKC side...

[Joe Amatulli]

Mike you are right I never said that a hunting dog is less of a dog than a gun dog and less than a shooting dog and less than an AA, but that all dogs are differant and do not fit all moldes. The reverse is also true that a shooting dog is better than and AA or a hunting dog is better than a gun dog and so on! However I will say that breeders will tell you that an all age is more apt to produce shooting dog, not nessasarly more AA. But that does not mean that two shooting dogs can not produce an AA, and so on.

Heaton are there not national grouse championships and national quail and all american national championships and so on and so on in the pointer world and isn't Ames the Grand Nations. There are 3 national GSP championships, one is GSPCA national, the NGSPA nationals, and the GSPCA national amateur walking championship. There is also the all breed nationals which is domonated by GSPs.

If you guys would see how bad the quailty of dogs have become in the east you would throw up, and again non of these dogs can compete at the national level thanks to the lowering of the standards and to people's ego that says that ribbon is more important than why we are here. So when I hear lower the standards, keep running them till you get one this tells me you just don't get it. Why do we do this?

[Karen]

Joe, what year did NAC FC Ravenwood's Starlight Express win the nationals? Pete couldn't remember.

[Joe Amatulli]

Dexie was runner up Amateur shooting in 2000 and the open in 2002.

[R-Heaton]

are there not national grouse championships and national quail and all american national championships and so on and so on in the pointer world and isn't Ames the Grand Nations.

Oh yea,,, but none of which show up on a pedigree,,, only one shows up on a pedigree the 3 hour ordeal at Ames. I have a 2x winner of the Nat. Am Chukar SD championship,, the only dog to ever win it twice,,, but I would be laughed at if I told people I own the National Champion. And naw,,, the Nationals at Ames is just called the Nationals,,, not Grand Nationals,, I think you got that from [i]Bisquit Eater[/i].

just checked AKC website and there were only 5 National titles

But ya get my point,,, and just for my education,, last year in Reno at the National Gun Dog,, wasn't there Open and Am,, retreiving and Non retrieving stakes,,all if won would carry a National Champion name. Thats 4 right there,,, how many is run in Eureka? And probably the same for the NGSPA and GSPCA?

[Joe Amatulli]

No I didn't get it from the biscut eater I got it from the American Field. In the GSP world there are only two National Championships,(GSPCA and NGSPA) both refur to All Age the others are either open or amateur, gun dog or shooting dog. And the AKC English Pointers also run Nationals.

[Joe Amatulli]

What they ran at Reno was the AKC pointing dog National that also includes pointer!

[remmy]

Hey Joe...just think about it!!!!!

[Joe Amatulli]

Hey Rob THINK ABOUT Jerry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kbshorthairs]

This post originally addressed the topic of witholding placements and has morphed into "my dog is better than your dog" or "my game is better than your game." In my opinion, the reason we have the different games and the different stakes within the games is to accomodate the varied interests. There is a difference between an All Age dog and a Shooting Dog and a Gun Dog and to argue which is better will be just as fruitless as arguing which breed is better. If you prefer a gun dog, power to you! Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
However, I agree with Joe in regard to "knowing an All Age performance when you see it". If the judges of an All Age stake don't believe an All Age performance was witnessed, the placements should be witheld. In theory, they were qualified to judge or they wouldn't be at a championship. (I said "in theory") Lowering the standards would not be acceptable. At the end of a stake, if the two best dogs were one with an All Age type race that but had a breech in manners and a dog that got around clean, but ran a Shooting Dog race, the placements should be witheld. Neither were worthy of being named champion in that stake, becuase is was an All Age stake.

[DGFavor]

So when I hear lower the standards, keep running them till you get one this tells me you just don't get it.

Hey Joe, I don't have the heart to go back and read thru all of this stuff but I'm not recalling anyone advocating lowering the standards or expectations of our championship dogs - some of us question if what is getting put up is really fulfilling the spirit of the standards but that's a personal interpretation deal we call judging. I can definitely see the idealism of accepting nothing but perfection, its honorable, sometimes nearly attainable...but most often not. That's a system, if done consistently from judge to judge/trial to trial best benefits the paper folk - the folks that can't or don't go out and see for themselves, making their own determination about a dog's abilities by what their paper achievements say. In an ideal world, it'd almost be fool proof. Unfortunately that system falls apart as we don't have consistency from judge to judge - there's just to much "blondes vs brunettes, Mary Ann vs Ginger" preference in the system. Our trial grounds range from miles of continuous prairies with birds planted by the hand of Mother Nature to 200 acres behind the WalMart planted with birds that drown when it rains.

It's not hard for me to see the reality that one of the dogs entered in the stake, in some way, shape or form outperformed the others - that dog may have been the best of a bad lot but it was still the best and that's what we're out there trying to figure out isn't it? For a guy like me, that doesn't put a lot of stock in what papers say, preferring to go by what I saw from the saddle of my own horse, this "dog of the day" system works fine. For instance, I know that the AA Championship my Stitch dog won at Reg. 9 a couple years ago was a bad arse deal bordering on ridiculous - not perfect but we were feeling pretty good at the end (Rich Heaton is a wicked scout BTW!!). I also know the Reg. 9 AA Championship my Bugsy won the following year was not such a bad arse deal - one of those hope it was good enough and nobody beats us deals. On paper they read exactly the same but the reality is they were not equal performances. Not sure if that makes sense or gives some insight why I'm not afraid to hand out trophies - unless I've seen it with my own eyes, the placements and titles just don't mean that much to me.

One more thing, the NGSPA Nat'l Ch. This is for sure a place where I would bring 'em back and run 'em again if I had to. The entrants, all champion dogs, have supposedly (see above!) proved their mettle by just being qualified to be there - if you don't believe that then you can't believe in the system you are advocating, where championships are only won by perfect performances. Presuming that to be true, any one of the qualified entrants should be a fine representation of our breed and naming a Nat'l Champion from the lot, even if they all have stinker performances, is hardly likely to bring the breed to it's knees. As always, just my opinion on the deal - typing with a smile on my face!!