With Holding Placements

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Dave Quindt
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Dave Quindt » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:46 pm

Neil wrote:
I can never recall the placements being withheld at an AF pointer trials, they will revert to 1-2-3, with no Champion, which does make some sense I guess.
The 2008 US Complete Shooting Dog Open National Championship had the title withheld, and reverted back to a weekend trial. If I remember correctly, there were close to 60 starters. In '07, the US Complete National Amateur Invitational withheld the title and all placements. The judges said they wouldn't place dogs that knocked birds.

I know a guy who was "lucky" enough to take 4th in a 5pt gundog stake. The problem was 1-3 was withheld. You think he really wanted 4th? Heck, that placement was really a terrible insult. If you are running dogs at the CH level you shouldn't need, much less want, a charity ribbon. Kinda like getting the award for being the "tallest pygmy".
But one thing that seems obvious, we don't often withhold placements and we are running a lot more All-Age dogs in our Championships, 75 at the Chicken, and 50 something at the Pheasant. Perhaps the two are connected and we are doing some things right.
In '06 (last year I've got complete data) the average number of starters for an NGSPA All Age Championship stake was 12.65. That should put some of this in perspective.

FWIW,
Dave

R-Heaton

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:03 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:Kinda like getting the award for being the "tallest pygmy".
Holy Cow,, what a can of worms that statement is. After all we are basically talking about a breed specific association here. So seeing if you had a whole herd of pygmies or atleast 12.65 of them,,, and that was the contest,,, I'm sure the tallest one would be/or is proud to win. :lol: I couldn't resist,, I'm only 5'7" on a good hair day.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Dave Quindt » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:10 pm

Rich,

We're primarily talking Open stakes here. What do you think the pros want? Weekend placements or no placements at all?

I'm pretty certain I know the answer to that one.

Dave

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by High Roll-N-Angel » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:22 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:Placements are supposed to be earned, not demanded.
Dave Quindt wrote:I know a guy who was "lucky" enough to take 4th in a 5pt gundog stake. The problem was 1-3 was withheld. You think he really wanted 4th? Heck, that placement was really a terrible insult. If you are running dogs at the CH level you shouldn't need, much less want, a charity ribbon. Kinda like getting the award for being the "tallest pygmy".
We had a dog in an Amateur stake that was a 4 pt major. Our dog did not have a great run. The scenting conditions were poor, it was hot and dry, and we had 1 find and the dog came from behind twice (which is very UNLIKE the dog). There were not many dogs that did very well really, because of the conditions. This was a retrieving stake and there were 3 dogs above ours called back for the retrieve. The first 3 dogs broke on the retrieve...our dog did a great job on her retrieve. :) Our dog took 3rd and 1,2, & 4th were withheld. Now...this dog would have been finished on their AFC title had they placed them 1st, am I upset or insulted? NOPE...I actually would have been embarrassed :oops: to have a win even a second place on that run. In no way was that run worthy of a 1st or 2nd place, especially knowing how that dog normally performs.

So do I have a problem with withholding placements? Nope

I have a problem with inconsistent judging, but that is a whole different story!

R-Heaton

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:17 am

High Roll,,, I get what you are saying but not being an AKC guy I just have a hard time with numbering the placements I guess. So you took 3rd??? By most people's standards that would mean 3rd best but in AKC standards 2 imaginary dogs could have done better than you so 3rd is "about" what you deserved?

But it does help with shooting down Doctor Dougs theory, "the best of the worst is still the best" apparently the "best of the worst is 3rd". :?

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by larue » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:03 am

interesting subject,in fact I happened to be judging the open gundog stake at the same trial,as angel.
We had around 40 dogs to look at,ended up with 6 we could look at in the callbacks,ended up with 2 we could use.
Now the first place dog that we carried into the callbacks was clearly better than the other 5,with the other 5 being a close group with very little difference in there runs.
And as you might guess we lost our 1st place dog in the call back..along with 3 of the other 5.
So it came down to this,as the group of 5 dogs had acceptable runs,and where very close in there runs,we had no issue moving them up to 1st and 2nd..

R-Heaton

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:04 am

The dreaded call back,,, I have witnessed it twice now and both times walk away feeling like there has to be a better way. I couldn't believe the ol'time veterans putting the bad mouth to that circus. We had a bird that was missed but the bird landed close so he sent his dog anyways (after asking instructions) needless to say the bird got up again and the dog chased,,, we had a pint sized brit in tall sagebrush and the gunners cracked off all four rounds at the bird no less that 50 yds,,, no way could that dog see what was going on. One of those things you just walk away saying "Wow now thats sumpt'n".

Two of the ol'time veterans have dogs in the HOF, and they were making the remark that the call back has driven alot of people out of the AKC world. Not sure if any of it is true,, I was a complete newby at it.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by DGFavor » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:00 pm

But it does help with shooting down Doctor Dougs theory, "the best of the worst is still the best" apparently the "best of the worst is 3rd".
Haha, that's awesome!! I love the confused looks on the faces of us less knowledgable folks that are hellbent on ruining the breed when we have the conversation with someone returning from a weekend of trialing trying to explain being beaten by imaginary 1st and 2nd place dogs!! :lol: :lol:

I'm pretty sure the tallest pygmy and his homies would be pretty baffled as well when he was ashamedly crowned 3rd tallest pygmy because in the book of pygmy standards, the ideal pygmy should be slightly taller. I'm sure they'd have the common sense though to realize that to make taller pygmys they'd probably better breed to the tallest pygmy available, since breeding to a non-existant ideal isn't likely to yield much results.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

I understand withholding 1st place in AKC, particularly smaller stakes. I do not understand withholding placements in a NGSPA event. Championship yes, Placements, no.

Neil Mace

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:39 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:
The judges said they wouldn't place dogs that knocked birds.

Dave

Dave,

There have been a number of dogs win the NC at Ames with at least one knock and chase, it used to be common up until the 50's, last hapened with Home Again Mike.

They were looking for the best dog, one that did the most, not the one that did less, but did not make a misstake.

You will still see one take a step, mark birds, or self-relocate that would get them picked up in a weekend trial stay down.

I really would like to see the above judge's dogs, dogs that would never knock a bird. Wonder if they ever make misstakes.

Ours maybe the only sport where you are not allowed a misstake, even those great Olympic gymnasts had a booble or two, but still got the gold.

Neil

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Dave Quindt » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:20 pm

Greg Jennings wrote: I do not understand withholding placements in a NGSPA event. Championship yes, Placements, no.
Ok Greg,

You're judging an NGSPA event; both the OSD and then the OAA. Most of the dogs either blew up on birds or got lost. You got 2 dogs clean with birds, but they ran shorter than the 2 dogs you put up in the OSD. Whatcha going to do? Keep in mind if you put them up and withhold the CH, you are validating their performances as all age quality.

What purpose is served by awarding placements but withholding championships?

Neil wrote:
There have been a number of dogs win the NC at Ames with at least one knock and chase, it used to be common up until the 50's, last hapened with Home Again Mike.
Neil, that was 48 years ago!
I really would like to see the above judge's dogs, dogs that would never knock a bird. Wonder if they ever make misstakes.
They all have dogs that make mistakes; they're humble enough to put them on a rope when they do.

The standards we have are defined by the performances we reward with placements.

JMO,
Dave

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by DGFavor » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:56 pm

You got 2 dogs clean with birds, but they ran shorter than the 2 dogs you put up in the OSD.
The stake just completed is a done deal and has nothing to do with the stake currently under judgement. Clean slate, new conditions. Dang hard for me to not put up bird dogs with the nerve to actually hunt, point, and mannerly handle birds - especially real birds. Put 'em up - they're bird dogs and that's what I'm interested in. Races are run at the track!! :wink:

Cripes, the two dogs used at our Reg. 9 Am. SD championship hunted with wider patterns than the dogs we used in the companion Everton All Age Derby Classic by a long shot. We are almost singlehandedly ruining birddogdom out here!! :lol: :lol:

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Dave Quindt » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:24 pm

Favor wrote:
The stake just completed is a done deal and has nothing to do with the stake currently under judgment. Clean slate, new conditions.
You missed a phrase, let me help you:
Clean slate, new conditions, NEW STANDARD
Dang hard for me to not put up bird dogs with the nerve to actually hunt, point, and mannerly handle birds - especially real birds. Put 'em up - they're bird dogs and that's what I'm interested in.
You know Doug, for a guy who trashes hunt tests, it sure sounds like that's your ideal game with a bit of tweaking. Run'em off horseback, and every dog that gets around clean with a find gets a ribbon. There's no need to run an AA stake and a SD stake because there is no standard.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by DGFavor » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:39 pm

Hold on there Dave, that's total BS, I "bleep" sure have never trashed hunt tests in my life so you can stick that right back whereever you pulled it from. That's total crap. As to the lack of standard, yah, sure I'm guilty of wanting to judge 'em all by a real world bird dog standard based on years of actually hunting and evaluating what works on the real thing. I'm definitely not an advocate of an AA standard that is producing dogs that can rarely make it from point A to point B and find a bird at the same time.

I'd prefer if you don't add your own statements to mine when you pull quotes from my posts. I imagine the mods would support me on that one.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Dave Quindt » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:24 pm

In response to Doug's original posting, and not the 3rd revision:
Hold on there Dave, that's total BS, I have never supported adhering to a strict standard ever and I "bleep" sure have never trashed hunt tests in my life so you can stick those right back whereever you pulled 'em from. That's total crap.
If I misunderstood some of your hunt test comments, I apologize.

Once again, I may have misunderstood your comments about standards, but it sure sounds like you don't support any standard.

If you're ok with rewarding shooting dog performances in an all age stake, why run both stakes? If you are judging both stakes, on the same grounds, in concurrence, isn't it logical that the minimum standard for placement be different in each stake? You are right, it is a clean slate and new conditions, but it is also a different standard. That's nothing more than a statement of fact.

Ned Myers hit the nail on the head in another thread
an AA championship requires that the dog to meet the minimum criteria for placement in stake. A shooting dog race does not meet the criteria for championship placement in such a stake..placements are not earned by just participating in a stake, but by meeting the required standard.
Maybe you'll have better luck explaining to Ned why he's wrong than you did with me.

I'm done.

Neil Mace

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:30 pm

Dave,

My point is can you name another sport where we demand perfection? LIke Mike, a dog has 12 clean, great finds, and then breaks on one, how is it that a dog with 11 finds beats him?

Now, the fact is you are right, our dogs are better, and many have the 13 clean finds to win, but look how often a 1 find dog wins because the 3 find dog had a slight booble.

No where is it written, nor is part of the oral history of open trials, that a dog has to be picked up that has a breach of manners, this asking for perfection is all recent stuff.

I am just not sure we are rewarding the best dogs, the true birdfinders, that bust their way through to find them, and might not point them all according to what we would like. For me, give me the birdfinder for breeding, I'll take a chance on getting his offspring steady.

Neil

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:50 pm

I know I'm going to catch heck for this, but I think all comes down to the judges personality. Some are "control freaks", and some are not. Negative versus positive. Give me the dog that finds birds any day. We call them bird dogs, not robots.

Sure, they have to be broke, but how many of them are completely broke in EVERY hunting situation? I'm sure that when most of them are hunted, that they aren't "picked up" when they have one little bobble. Otherwise a lot of people would be making a trip back to the truck for another dog, rather than looking for that next bird!!! They are just dogs, and they make mistakes just like people.

Would you pull a NFL QB for one pass incompletion? I think not.I may be wrong, but I thought that trials were started to evaluate the progression of breeds as it relates to hunting, not a contest of perfection.

Don't get me wrong, I love field trials.

Like I said, "control freak" versus "non-control freak"

JMO
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by DGFavor » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:02 pm

For the record Dave, I never, ever felt my dog should have won the AA Ch. at the Sharptail deal - Ned knows that, we even talked about it in private when I retrieved my Tracker from him the next day, so I'm fairly certain neither of us would say we disagreed on that at all. The only thing we might have seen differently was going ahead and offering up some placements. I have the utmost respect for the difficulty of judging and the integrity it takes to call it like ya' see it so I cringe and am embarrassed that it's even been mentioned or brought up on this forum but I suppose it is a good example of exactly what we are discussing.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:32 pm

I am just not sure we are rewarding the best dogs, the true birdfinders, that bust their way through to find them, and might not point them all according to what we would like. For me, give me the birdfinder for breeding, I'll take a chance on getting his offspring steady.
As a hunter and breeder of birddogs for the avertage hunter I agree completely with that statement. Over the years I have made a point of staying away from AA type dogs as I saw a whole lot of dogs being bred to run and not hunt. I admit there are a few in the more recent pass that have passed down some good gundog qualities and I have a couple right now. But they are here because they are birddog first and range if they need to.

Some how we need to get back to looking for bird dogs in our trials or they will have no value as great sires and dams in the breed.
if all they are passinbg on is the ability to run. I know I will hear that they are better bird finders also but I will argue that as it is just as easy to breed better noses alog with bidability in dogs that have never seen a trial as it is in those that have. For a matter of fact, that is pretty much what the history of the Brittany is, my good hunter being bred to the neighbors good hunter.

I too like the trials and tests as fun things to do with your dog and compete to see whose dog can do the best. But we need to rethink much of what they have developed into.

Ezzy
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by 3Britts » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:44 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
I am just not sure we are rewarding the best dogs, the true birdfinders, that bust their way through to find them, and might not point them all according to what we would like. For me, give me the birdfinder for breeding, I'll take a chance on getting his offspring steady.
As a hunter and breeder of birddogs for the avertage hunter I agree completely with that statement. Over the years I have made a point of staying away from AA type dogs as I saw a whole lot of dogs being bred to run and not hunt. I admit there are a few in the more recent pass that have passed down some good gundog qualities and I have a couple right now. But they are here because they are birddog first and range if they need to.

Some how we need to get back to looking for bird dogs in our trials or they will have no value as great sires and dams in the breed.
if all they are passinbg on is the ability to run. I know I will hear that they are better bird finders also but I will argue that as it is just as easy to breed better noses alog with bidability in dogs that have never seen a trial as it is in those that have. For a matter of fact, that is pretty much what the history of the Brittany is, my good hunter being bred to the neighbors good hunter.

I too like the trials and tests as fun things to do with your dog and compete to see whose dog can do the best. But we need to rethink much of what they have developed into.

Ezzy
Absolutely!

Trials were brought about so that the best bird dogs could be found and bred. Bird dogs, by definition, must find birds. The quicker the better. They must have good noses, brains and stamina. I think, imo, that in a sport where most hunters walk that a dog who rutinely is out of eye and ear shot just doesn't cut it. Much in the same way a dog that hugs its handler's feet doesn't cut it either.
That being said, I have seen several good AA dogs that know when to range and when not to. I also agree that a dog must meet the minimum reqirements in order to place. In a ft the dog must hold throughout the brace, must retreive when necessary, must honor when called upon to do so, and must work with the handler in a consistent manner. But then, what do I know. I think that trial are a place to compete and have fun, to socialize and relax with other birddoggers. If given the choice, I would rather be out hunting with my kids and my dogs.

Neil Mace

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:41 pm

Ah guys, we made quite a jump from my saying we may not always be rewarding the right dogs to where you all took us, don't breed to field trial dogs.

In my mind, the worst of the field trial winners have proven they are worthy of being bred.

I am not saying it is broke, I just want it to get better.

Neil

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:59 pm

Someone asked about definitions of AA vs. SD, I sent them to AFTCA Guidelings and decided to share after reading them again myself:

All-Age Stake
What is the expected performance of a dog in an All-Age
Stake?


“The familiar, capsule description of the all-age
dog, attributed to old-timer trainer Jim Avent,
declares that he (or she) is a dedicated hunter of
upland game birds which ‘runs off–but not quite’.
The all-age dog is a free spirit and fills up all the
available country (plus a little) in a bold and
sometimes reckless manner, yet ultimately
acknowledges the control exerted by his handler
and courses to the front in such a pattern as to
maintain periodic, suitable contact with the
handler. The really intelligent and accomplished
all-age dog exhibits the knack of “showing” at
strategic, distant, forward points on the course
during the progress of his heat. He may
frequently pass from view, only to show again
after a lapse of time, or to be discovered by
handler or scout pointing game.
16
"The all-age dog should incorporate the direction of the wind and the lay of the land in his hunting
effort, enabling him to range to the fringe of contact with his handler. He must possess a superior
nose, allowing him to hunt from objective to objective at a very fast pace. In an ideal all-age
performance there is little or no time for extended probing or rechecking of coverts.
"A successful all-age dog is not a straight line runner. Despite his speed, power and extended range,
he must be hunting as he goes. He must take the edges and apply his superior olfactory powers to
pickup up vagrant scents that might lead to discovery of game.
"The all-age dog should exude animation and happiness with the task at hand. He should display
loftiness of head and tail in his gait, maintaining this appearance in cover and on bare ground, despite
traveling with the utmost speed and drive. He must not be deterred by punishment meted out by
cover and weather.
"No matter how far flung and well executed the casts–no matter how beautiful and powerful the
stride–no matter how lofty and animated the carriage–no matter how strong and indefatigable the
heart–this running machine must have foremost in mind the discovery and near perfect handling of
game. He should stand proud, rigid and intense on his birds, showing confidence that he has them
pegged exactly, and in front. Quite often he must maintain this posture for many minutes, and
remembering his training, before handler or scout discovers him on point. He should be fearless at
approach of his handler and the field trial party, and he should maintain keen interest, intensity,
upright posture and good style while the handler flushes and the shot is fired. If birds cannot be
flushed and relocation is required, he should proceed when released with dash and determination to
search out and pin running birds, exhibiting powers of nose that take him straight to the quarry.
"The all-age dog must voluntarily and cheerfully back on sight a bracemate on rigid point. However,
the judges should attempt to see the backing situation through the eyes of the moving dog, taking into
account the less acute eyesight of the dog and the possible interference of cover, terrain and
background as he approaches the scene. The approaching dog should get the benefit of any doubt
about his ability to see clearly the pointing dog. In an all-age performance, a back should be
accomplished if the opportunity presents inself and the bracemate is in the vicinity, but a race should
not be interrupted and a dog returned from a distant cast in order to achieve a back.
"In the all-age dog, stamina is a watchword. Regardless of whether the heat is a half- hour or three
hours, prime consideration should be given the competitor, which can convincingly finish the allotted
time with range and speed undiminished. Emphasis should also be placed on the dog's ability to find
and handle game in all parts of the heat, but particularly in the latter stages when fatigue may take its
toll on olfactory powers."
(Quoted from John S. O'Neall, Jr., and Collier F. Smith in "The All-Age Field Trial Dog in
America").

All-Age Standard
What should the judges do when no dog in the stake totally meets the All-Age standard?


—In any given All- Age Stake, it may be very difficult to place a dog which totally meets this exalted
standard; therefore, out of necessity, there will frequently be a need to accept a dog whose qualities
and character can only begin to approximate this standard
. The standard, when applied, should
examine the total performance of the dog with range being kept foremost in mind. Range is the "sine
qua non" of an all-age dog and it should take precedence over and not be compromised for a short,
practical, methodical, unexhilarated, uninspiring performance, no matter how immaculate the bird
work of the latter.
Scouting In An All-Age Stake

Neil Mace

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:02 pm

Shooting Dog Stake:
What is the expected performance of a dog in a Shooting Dog Stake?


—"A Shooting Dog Stake is held for the purpose of promoting the ideal shooting dog, one that will
find and handle correctly all game birds on the designated course.
"The superior shooting dog is one that excites constant admiration for the quality of his performance
and does nothing to displease or annoy. Without giving his handler any unnecessary effort, he will in
an artistic and polished manner give him the most quality bird finds that are to be had on the ground
covered.
"The exemplary shooting dog displays an intense desire to find birds for his handler, a nose keen to
detect the presence of game, and the ability to locate it quickly and accurately by body scent. He
shows staunchness, intensity, positiveness and lofty style on point and steadiness to wing and shoot.
"In hunting, a shooting dog of the first water evidences bird sense, an understanding of the habits of
game and displays the wisdom to use the wind to advantage; he adopts pace and range that is most
effective on the ground being worked under the conditions which exist. He possesses speed, properly
applied, is industrious and thorough in his search, handles the immediate terrain and does not run past
objectives, and has adequate range, which is intelligently directed. He moves easily, pleasingly,
gracefully, animated and happy while running and manifests lofty head and tail on point. He works
independent of continuous direction from the handler and exhibits perfect manners at all times. This
includes, when opportunity is afforded, backing a bracemate on rigid point.
"Intelligent patterning of a course, hunting to the front, quickness in locating his handler and in
seeing and hearing his commands, prompt obedience, courage and willingness to face unflinchingly
heavy or punishing cover plus boldness on game, mark the class shooting dog. Proper handing
response is paramount.
"The performer that fulfills the requirements naturally and cheerfully is preferable to one that works
mechanically, although errorlessly.
"Whenever practicable, the dog may be worked on single birds and sho uld do his work cheerfully and
in a natural way.
"It is distinctly understood that a slow dog, one lacking in stamina, or one that is circumscribed in
range is not in favor. All the speed and range a dog can well utilize in the hunting field is desired, but
it must at all times be applied properly. The bold, snappy, dashing dog will have quick and pleasing
response at all times, keeping uppermost in mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler. A
dog should not hunt in straight lines, but exhibit intelligence and true bird- finding ability by hunting
the likely places on the course, working for his handler, swinging to the course when the character of
the country and cover requires so doing. Instinct, natural qualifications, training and experience
equip him for superior work. Exceptional style, beauty of carriage, and grace of movement are
important.
"The Standard seeks to glorify the ideal hunting dog which works indefatigably in the interest of the
gun, a dog with character and courage which displays all essential qualifications, plus refinements of
expert training."
(Quoted from Parke C. Brinkley in "Standard For The National Open Shooting Dog Championship)

Shooting Dog Standard
What should the judges do when no dog totally meets the shooting dog standard?


—In any given Shooting Dog Stake, it may be very difficult to place a dog, which totally meets this
exalted standard. Therefore, out of necessity, there will frequently be a need to accept a dog whose
qualities and character can only begin to approximate this standard. The standard when applied
should seek out the dog which displays superior bird dog characteristics in the form of natural
qualities such as pace, range, bird sense, nose, stamina and style. The contender sought after should
render a balanced, biddable performance, search intelligently and exhibit bird findings ability with
quality always superceding quantity, manifest accuracy of location, loftiness and intensity on point.
Subservience to the handler and proper handling response without the benefit of scouting and
excessive handling are the "sine qua non" of a shooting dog. Excessive range on the part of a
shooting dog is not considered desirable. When considering bird work, the judge should be swayed
not by the frequency of occurrence but rather by the quality of performance.

Neil Mace

Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:07 pm

And here is what those wise men had to say about the topic:

Withholding Of Placements

Are judges ever justified in withholding all or any placements?



—Dogs should be rated on the available performances but should at least meet minimum field trial
standards. Judges should have wide discretion in these matters, but should withhold placements
reluctantly and should make an effort to find three logical winners, if possible. There are times when
conditions may be such as to make satisfactory bird work unobtainable, whereupon placements on
class and ground heats are acceptable. When running conditions are satisfactory but the work of the
contestants is such that it is impossible to pick three dogs with performances approaching minimum
field trial standards, one or more placements should be withheld where there are not three worthy
winners. If placements are withheld, never withhold a first place and award second and third
placements or withhold first and second placements and award a third placement. In a championship,
if there is no dog, which has shown championship qualities, the title should be withheld. In this
instance, placements (up to three) should be given, but only if the dogs meet minimum field trial
standards. Note: In a National Amateur Championship, a winner is always named.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by 3Britts » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:33 pm

Neil Mace wrote:Ah guys, we made quite a jump from my saying we may not always be rewarding the right dogs to where you all took us, don't breed to field trial dogs.

In my mind, the worst of the field trial winners have proven they are worthy of being bred.

I am not saying it is broke, I just want it to get better.

Neil
Neil,

Just wondering who said not to breed to an AA dog?

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Karen » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:40 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Over the years I have made a point of staying away from AA type dogs

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by myerstenn » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:51 am

The fact of the matter is, you very seldom get the quality of the dogs that you breed to. Dogs have a tendency to average down based on the genetics. So a good rule of thumb is , if you want a shooting dog breed to an AA dog, if you want a good gun dog breed to a good shooting dog and so on. You should always breed to more dog than you want. In some cases you may get more dog than you want, but more than likey you will get a better quality dog. Field trial dogs should be used selectively as seed stock to better the overall breed you desire. For those of you that think field trial dogs are the kiss of death to a breeding program you are sadly mistaken and in my opinion you are missing the boat

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Crestonegsp » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:11 am

You are exactly right the drag of the race determines the outcome of a litter. If you breed two Shooting Dogs you are going to get at best Shooting Dogs and not All Age. Breed two All Age and pray you get at least one All Age pup. I have always thought of it like NASCAR, we never would drive those cars on the street but they sure do find a lot of great ideas that help the cars we do drive everyday, love my Charger. How does this relate to Withholding placements? When you have judges put up a Shooting Dog in an All Age stake you are tell the general public this is an All Age. Either you have a judge that is not sure what they are looking at, doing a favor (in their own mind), they know someone else put it up so it must be an All Age, intimidated by the handlers reputation or they have no idea what the heck they are doing. If the person judging has never had experience in the stake of which they are judging the chances are you will not get an accurate placement of the dogs. Going back to the NGSPA Championship and the numbers being down, why? Maybe it is because the person judging would not put up anything but an All Age, other need no apply.

As a judge if you feel you do not have a dog that meets the standard for the stake they are entered you should not place them and clubs should not hire judges who do not understand the stake they are judging.

When I withhold a placement it is not in an effort to pull one over on anyone. It is to help uphold the standard no matter what that breed it is. When judging we owe it to those who have entered to do the right thing and if that is withholding then that is what we must do
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:37 am

In the NGSPA how often do you see them with hold Shooting Dog Championships? With alot of those dogs that I see win they win both ways AA and SD so I was just wondering if a judge ever would withhold a championship because the best dogs ran to much but got around clean with birdwork? And is there such a thing,, can a dog run to much if it is dead to front, never needed scouting and found birds?

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:34 pm

When you have judges put up a Shooting Dog in an All Age stake you are tell the general public this is an All Age
I might agree with this except the general public would have no idea what you are talking about and couldn't care less. Now if we are afraid it will mislead those of us who know what a field trial is, I can't see that happening.
by R-Heaton on Today, 11:37

In the NGSPA how often do you see them with hold Shooting Dog Championships? With alot of those dogs that I see win they win both ways AA and SD so I was just wondering if a judge ever would withhold a championship because the best dogs ran to much but got around clean with birdwork? And is there such a thing,, can a dog run to much if it is dead to front, never needed scouting and found birds?
This is a question I have had for a long time and have never heard of it happening. We hear all the time about dogs finding too many birds and not running enough in AA stakes but I never hear of a dog running too big faulted or having a placement withheld because of it unless the dog is lost.

I have no problem with whatever rules the people make up for our games but I do have a problem thinking we are saving the breed because we trial. I know it is popular to think that within our fraternity but get into the real world of hunting and gundogs and most people would laugh at us if they knew what we are doing.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by snips » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:55 pm

Boy, I gotta disagree on 2 Shooting Dogs not being able to produce an AA dog. I have, many times seen a pup come from a litter with much more run than parents. Sometimes it is just a matter of how they are brought along.
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by vzkennels » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:57 pm

Ezzy I think Rich's question is can a SD run to big in a SD CH & placement be with held because of that?

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:52 pm

vzkennels wrote:Ezzy I think Rich's question is can a SD run to big in a SD CH & placement be with held because of that?
snips wrote:Boy, I gotta disagree on 2 Shooting Dogs not being able to produce an AA dog. I have, many times seen a pup come from a litter with much more run than parents. Sometimes it is just a matter of how they are brought along.
VZ

I didn't say it well but I have never heard of it happening.

Snips,

You are right. There are a lot of AA dogs that have come from dogs that run shorter or weren't even trial dogs. Your chances are probably better out of big running dogs but it isn't alway true.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Crestonegsp » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:20 pm

by snips on Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:55 am

"Boy, I gotta disagree on 2 Shooting Dogs not being able to produce an AA dog. I have, many times seen a pup come from a litter with much more run than parents. Sometimes it is just a matter of how they are brought along."


OK, I bite, Who are these dogs that are out of SDs and are truely AA dogs?

A young dog with all the potential in the world is just that a young dog and you never know what you have until they are broke out.
It is simple genetics that there is a drag of the race when you breed.

There is a dog that is a NGDC/NFC(Gun Dog) that people do not flock to to breed, why because he is a SD, a truley great SD and deserves all the praise that goes along with it but still a SD. If you can get AA out of a SD then why isn't he the number one producer of AA dogs?

I have no problem with a SD, heck I have a great one right now but if you want to have competative dogs in FT world or even great hunting dogs you need these high powered AA dogs.
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:50 pm

Crestonegsp wrote:

OK, I bite, Who are these dogs that are out of SDs and are truely AA dogs?

A young dog with all the potential in the world is just that a young dog and you never know what you have until they are broke out.


There is a dog that is a NGDC/NFC(Gun Dog) that people do not flock to to breed, why because he is a SD, a truley great SD and deserves all the praise that goes along with it but still a SD. If you can get AA out of a SD then why isn't he the number one producer of AA dogs?
Pappion??? Very nice dog, but yes, a SD.

Doug

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:56 pm

Crestonegsp wrote:
I have no problem with a SD, heck I have a great one right now but if you want to have competative dogs in FT world or even great hunting dogs you need these high powered AA dogs.
True, how very true. Just look at the history of the GSP breed. (maybe not) :oops: :oops:

Rick/Clown

Mert/Slick

Slick/Sanjo Slick (maybe)

Flash/Strike (maybe)

Sometimes we need to look back a couple of generations too!! Or the bitches!!! Can you say Heidi Ho???

Doug

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:49 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Sometimes we need to look back a couple of generations too!!
That would be interesting, but DNA testing was only started a few years back. And Ferrell is got kicked out. :lol:

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by dan v » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:54 am

myerstenn wrote:The fact of the matter is, you very seldom get the quality of the dogs that you breed to. Dogs have a tendency to average down based on the genetics.
I believe the "drag of the race" is misunderstood. I think breeding is more on the shape of a Bell Curve. Boot polishers on one extreme (left side), uncontrollable run-offs on the opposite extreme (right side). So I think that dogs will breed to the average....all the time. If it is believed that the breeding of two AA dogs doesn't always produce AA dogs, then it stands to reason that breeding two GD's won't always produce less. These litters will trend to the more populated area of the Bell Curve...where ever that area is for each particular breed.
Dan

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:08 am

I believe the "drag of the race" is misunderstood. I think breeding is more on the shape of a Bell Curve. Boot polishers on one extreme (left side), uncontrollable run-offs on the opposite extreme (right side). So I think that dogs will breed to the average....all the time. If it is believed that the breeding of two AA dogs doesn't always produce AA dogs, then it stands to reason that breeding two GD's won't always produce less. These litters will trend to the more populated area of the Bell Curve...where ever that area is for each particular breed.
This is the way it tends to go with any characteristic it appears to me. There is no trait thats breeds true but it always tends to move to the midpoint which is the normal for the breed. That midpoint can be moved over time but it is a slow process as has been demonstrated over the past many years. But when we say like begets like if that was an absolute their would never be any change in our dogs. So at very best we can say that our chances are improved by selective breeding but it sure isn't a guarantee. We continue to look for the pups that go beyond their breeding for whatever characteristic we are looking for.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by dan v » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:39 am

ezzy333 wrote:
I believe the "drag of the race" is misunderstood. I think breeding is more on the shape of a Bell Curve. Boot polishers on one extreme (left side), uncontrollable run-offs on the opposite extreme (right side). So I think that dogs will breed to the average....all the time. If it is believed that the breeding of two AA dogs doesn't always produce AA dogs, then it stands to reason that breeding two GD's won't always produce less. These litters will trend to the more populated area of the Bell Curve...where ever that area is for each particular breed.
This is the way it tends to go with any characteristic it appears to me. There is no trait thats breeds true but it always tends to move to the midpoint which is the normal for the breed. That midpoint can be moved over time but it is a slow process as has been demonstrated over the past many years. But when we say like begets like if that was an absolute their would never be any change in our dogs. So at very best we can say that our chances are improved by selective breeding but it sure isn't a guarantee. We continue to look for the pups that go beyond their breeding for whatever characteristic we are looking for.

Ezzy
Agreed. Just that people believe that the "drag" is all the way to boot lickers...the drag is to the average. So to move the average, one has to breed to above average....either above average boot licker, or above average run-off. :mrgreen:
Dan

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:33 am

R-Heaton wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Sometimes we need to look back a couple of generations too!!
That would be interesting, but DNA testing was only started a few years back. And Ferrell is got kicked out. :lol:
I think you misunderstood, I meant that Slick probably didn't run as big as his daddy, and Flash ran way bigger than his daddy. I wasn't implying that they weren't out of what their pedigrees say. Just saying that sometimes SD's produce All Age and All Age produces SD's.

And maybe it's not the sire that determines range, maybe it's the momma.

Doug

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:59 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:And maybe it's not the sire that determines range, maybe it's the momma.
I think you make a good point here,,,, And maybe and I think most of the the time its the trainer. IMO,,, dogs that show they have the ability to run need to be encouraged to reach farther into the country, learn to have the confidence to stay out there once they are there and be in the proper physical condition to run AA. So when people talk about SD and AA alot of time I think its just a matter of training.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:03 am

R-Heaton wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:And maybe it's not the sire that determines range, maybe it's the momma.
I think you make a good point here,,,, And maybe and I think most of the the time its the trainer. IMO,,, dogs that show they have the ability to run need to be encouraged to reach farther into the country, learn to have the confidence to stay out there once they are there and be in the proper physical condition to run AA. So when people talk about SD and AA alot of time I think its just a matter of training.
I agree 100%

Doug

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:44 am

R-Heaton wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:And maybe it's not the sire that determines range, maybe it's the momma.
I think you make a good point here,,,, And maybe and I think most of the the time its the trainer. IMO,,, dogs that show they have the ability to run need to be encouraged to reach farther into the country, learn to have the confidence to stay out there once they are there and be in the proper physical condition to run AA. So when people talk about SD and AA alot of time I think its just a matter of training.

Right on.
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by DGFavor » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:05 pm

Good stuff guys! Was waiting for someone to mention that the "drag of the breed" works both ways. Always irritates the proponents of the theory when I say well good, we'd be doing the breeds a whole lotta good then if we breed a couple short ranging for the breed, methodical foot dogs together. It oughta produce a litter that will, depending on your tastes and preferences, be an improvement on the parents according to the theory!! Befuddles 'em. :lol: :lol:

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by High Roll-N-Angel » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:50 pm

Crestonegsp wrote:but if you want to have competative dogs in FT world or even great hunting dogs you need these high powered AA dogs.
Why so? That shouldn't be. I hope I've misunderstood the above comment, because I disagree. :(

If someone wanted a great hunting dog..why do you "need" an AA dog? I can only see one reason....if their nose is better than your hunting dog and you needed to breed up. But then there are probably many SD or GD that have better noses than an AA dog so you would breed there, unless you needed the run added to a hunting dog, which I assume most hunters wouldn't want.

Is your reference to the FT world in AM Field, AKC or both? You shouldn't need AA to be competitve in the FT world as there are seperate stakes and should be judged on different standards (although I think there is some muddy waters sometimes). You can be very competitive on the FT world with a great GD or SD when run in their comparative stakes. A great AA dog with a good nose and run will serve it's purpose to use to "breed up" for those shorter GD. I understand that alot of pedigrees somewhere "back there" will have AA breeding and it was needed as an improvement for the run in the breed back then and even some dogs now need some AA improvement. Although, I think there is too much "breeding up" or push for that almighty AA dog that we're creating run offs and forgetting the great GUN dog. :( :?

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by R-Heaton » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:56 am

High Roll-N-Angel wrote:If someone wanted a great hunting dog..why do you "need" an AA dog? I can only see one reason....if their nose is better than your hunting dog and you needed to breed up. But then there are probably many SD or GD that have better noses than an AA dog so you would breed there, unless you needed the run added to a hunting dog, which I assume most hunters wouldn't want.
The SD or GD probably came from AA stock though. I think Ezzy's point was getting to the theory or atleast around the theory of again the "Drag of the Breed"
IMO, it also depends on the part of the country you are from? In your statement Angel,, you separate out hunting dogs and field trial dogs. Here where I am from there is no separation our hunting dogs are all field trial dogs but we have alot of country and it takes a dog that can run and hunt to be able to find the birds. IMO the "nose" thing is also more of a product of training. A good trainer needs to know how to get a dog to run with purpose and not just to hear the wind blow between his ears. Which I think people often mistake a dog that hunts with purpose with a dog with a good nose.

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:02 pm

I have never understood how you can tell if a dog has a great nose or not. I am sure many dogs can smell just fine but it doesn't register and they just fail to acknowledge the smell the way another dog might. Simply put does the dog not smell something or does it just ignore the smell. I know that happens with puppies so why can't it happen with older dogs too.

Application is lacking many times when we think the dog just can't smell.

JMO
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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Neil Mace » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:44 pm

Ezzy brings up a very important point, after all the years I have spent observing dogs, I cannot tell if one has a better sense of smell than another, I can tell those that learn to use it to their and our andvantage. Dog's sense of smell is beyond even our most sensitive equipment to measusre, we may never understand why they point. It is so high that the worst of them is still very good. And for what it may be worth, birddogs do not score all that high amoung the breeds of dogs, all the hounds are much higher.

When I evaluate dogs, pointing/sensing is not high on the list, but finding birds is very high, and that is almost always the All-Age dog.

I have found that if I have to steer the dog to the birds, I am better off with a flushing dog, I want a pointing dog that find wild birds I would be unlikely to find without them,

Neil

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Re: With Holding Placements

Post by Joe Amatulli » Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:05 am

I can not believe what I am reading.
First: If you asked me 10 years ago what am all age was I would have given you a great diffination, than I got one and knew I did not know what I was talking about.
Second: You can not define an all age with words, it's like porn you know it when you see it.
Third: An all age is suppose to do pretty much what a shooting dog does but to the extreme! The differance between a major league player and an all star, hall of famer.
Fourth: The idea of lowering the standards, or "keep running them till you get one" is about the most dumest thing I have ever herd! As far as I am conserned the standards need to be increased not lowered. This is for the sake of the breed, National Champions produce National Champions! When you breed crap to crap you get worse grap! This is done for the bettermint of the breed not to satisfy some ones micro ego.
Fifth: You can not learn what any of these dogs are suppose to do in front of a computer, you need to get out there and watch and listen to the people that have done this for years and years. The saying that shut up and learn dose truly apply here. Go watch that Abby dog that Dennis runs, Penny, Griz and Zack that Eldon runs. Go talk to Keith and Robbi about Slick and Burjan about Saddle. Ask others about Clown, Stevie, Siran, Thunder, meny of Steigers dogs, all the other great all age dogs we have had and seen, you may learn something and as I did, realize what a fool I was making of myself by trying to define the undefineable. This is a great sport, it is sport of opinions, but before you state and opinion know what you are talking about.

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