VDD testing

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:53 pm

What is the difference in VDD testing and NAVAHDA testing. I was told there is a place to look this up about the testing.... Anyone have a link to this???
Thanks

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:14 pm

Have you been to www.vdd-gna.org/ lots of info and links there, although I couldn't find test specifics. My impression is that it is similar to NAVHDA testing but more indepth with more focus on retrieving and tracking.

Post by **grant** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:31 pm

That site has some good pics! http://www.vdd-gna.org/photogallery.htm

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:32 pm

I would also look at the www.nadkc.org

This the the DK club here in the US with similar testing as the VDD. DKs can run the VDD testing since the VDD Tests are actually JGHV (Versatile Hunting Dog Club) tests and not limited to DDs, but open to all FCI registered hunting dogs.

JIm

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:41 pm

Jim,
Maybe you can help me out here a little. I am looking for the Guide Lines of the tests.... Such as in the N/A how long a point needes to be held, does the dog need to retrieve, land or water, tracking..... on and on...... I am only looking for the Natural Ability guide lines right know .........

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:41 am

Tak,

You need to have a registered dog to compete in the JGHV format.....registered FCI, meaning it has to be a DK, DD, SM Weim, etc. It is a testing organization for imported pointing breeds or dogs from that bloodline that are FCI registered.

Their VJP (VDD test) and the Derby (DK test) are somewhat equivalent to NAVHDA's NA, just alittle more indepth.

The DK tests are breed specific, but the DK's can use the JGHV testing format. DD's use the JGHV format only.

Confuse you more! ?

Phil
REO

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:17 am

Not to bad! I have a dog in for training that will be tested in April. I just want to read over the test structure to see what it is all about....

""""are somewhat equivalent to NAVHDA's NA, just alittle more indepth. """""""" How is that? Explain...... Detail it out for me or send me to a link that has it. ??????

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:20 am

Why are you training a dog for the VJP? The test is supposed to be an evaluation of the dogs natural ability.

To best understand the JGHV evaluations you need to have a copy of the VZPO, test regulations for the VJP and the HZP. Members of the VDD-GNA and NADKC can obtain these from their clubs. I don't know of a link with the VJP regs online, but will look for you.

Jim

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:52 am

TAK,

The DK Derby is actually less than the NA. There is no water or pheasant track required. If the pup will do a nice field search and will establish a point and hold it for a bit, you should be ok. You need to work on a down stay where the dog is tied to a fence and will not get ansy or whine.

I found the NAVHDA Natural ability more challenging to a young pup. My Retta passed her NA, score 112 at 5 1/2 months and I had to wait till she was over a year old to do the derby. By that time, she was already well into her formal training.

If the pup will pass a NA test with a prize 1 or high 2 (depending on where it got docked) it would sail through a Derby.

If you are going to test in a VDD puppy test, just add tracking (not chasing) a rabbit to the requirements.

I am with Jim, though, why are you "training" a pup for the puppy tests? Exposure to the elements required should be enough.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:23 pm

Training..... Well the dog is 11 months old. Has a big desire for birds does point birds but does not allow me to flush the bird. The owner wants the dog to be more steady on the birds pointed.

So are you both saying you don't train with a dog at this age or before the N/A test???? Help me out here, you just take a pup and cut him loose an hope for the best??????

This dog is nice but could be a very nice dog! I think that the owner made a good choice in starting him on the right track before he gets to far of track!

Also if he(owner) shows with a dog that will allow you to flush the bird is he not going to pass?

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:42 pm

TAK:

Well in some regards it is "cut and run". Remember the VJP and Derby are intended to evaluate the natural abilities of the dog, not what you can get a puppy to do. Also, don't forget that the subsequent evaluations (HZP and VGP) are designed to evaluate a versatile hunting dog, not a "bird dawg" so the foundation for training should be centered on exposure, obedience, tracking, and retrieving.

You definitely need to get a hold of a VZPO. Let me see if I have an extra copy sitting around the house.

In the pointing evaluation there is absolutely NO requirement for the dog to be steady. The judges want to evaluate the dogs natural pointing skills. The pointing is much less important to the over all score than tracking. Pointing has a 1 multiplier while tracking has a 3.

Jim

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:40 am

Here you go Tak.

There are two similar articles "Training for the VJP" and "A beginners view of the VJP test"

http://www.drahthaar.com/articles/index.html

Outside of getting a copy of the VZPO, the best description I could find.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:09 pm

Kevin wrote:Here you go Tak.

There are two similar articles "Training for the VJP" and "A beginners view of the VJP test"

http://www.drahthaar.com/articles/index.html

Outside of getting a copy of the VZPO, the best description I could find.

Thank You

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:13 am

Well I pleased to announce the Results of the Test this VDD took over the weekend.! Pass! Not only Passed this dog but the same owner sent me his 6 or8 month old female out to start her on birds and she too passed!
Ok know the hard part. Also I was not there I got the info over the phone. I am not sure on the scoring here so beer with me (yes I said Beer) In pointing he held for a great long time and then the bird was flushed (Steady). 11's score???? On his track he was tracking and then pointed and the judges told the handler to release the dog and he bumped a wild covey of Hun's! I take it he had another track again cuz the owner said he took the other track and ran it like lightning! Then he stopped to flush when a meadow Lark to wing! he got 9's or 10's I am not sure on that.

The little girl I was real worried if she would even contend (just a baby). I had her for about 3 weeks and I force feed her bird after bird. I did not get the scores on her but she did pass.!

I wish I could have been to the trial! The owner I believe was on Cloud 9!

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:50 am

tak,,I cannot speak for the dk,vdd tets,,but I can speak for the navhda n/a...as I have a house full of n/a titled dogs....
First off,,I am glad the owner got the scores he wanted,,
but his use of a pro,,to prepare a pup for a natural ability test,
is at the heart of a huge issue for myself..
The puppy tests check out a pups instincts,,what the pup was bred with,,there are other tests to check on a dogs trainablity,,such as
the ut in navhda...
I consider the n/a test to be the most important,,IF THE PUP HAS NOT BEEN TRAINED,,BUT EXPSOED...
once seriuos steadiness work,,or many birds in a box,,
has begun,,you are no longer seeing a natural pup..you are seeing a trained pup..and this training will make the puppy data corrupt
in my eyes...
when an entire litter is tested,,yo get an idea of there strenghts and weaknesses,,and can make breeding descions on this data...
when a pro,,fixes a problem,,say not pointing,,by steadness training,,
he has corrupted the data base..
This is very common in navhda,,where you see 15 month old
pups,,who are steady,,running in n/a tests...these dogs are no longer pups,,,there are green or fully broke dogs..
I am not telling you to not train these dogs,,just giveing you the big picture,,as far as the reason for n/a tests..

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:44 am

I agree 100% with that larue

But the thing with the Dk testing is that the derby is only held in the spring, so you many have no choice but to run a 15 month old dog. This is the position I am in, as my pup was born in december.

As for he NAVHDA I believe you are right, I plan on testing next month, pup will be just shy of 5 months.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:45 pm

I guess I can see your point to some extent! First and formost the male was ready to be broke! I feel if he was allowed to do anymore chasing or knocking birds a bigger hand than mine would be in order.
On the male lets talk about Prey drive! Wow, I have not trained millions of dogs but I have been around more than two of them. This dog takes the Cake! I may have mentioned about his run in with the riser in the field. He had just bumped a hen and was chasing and seen this grey aluminem thing in the field and would you know it he at full speed tryed to take it out what a wreck! One other thing to is this dog had ran down many birds after bumping them. Many rewards for leging out a fly bird so to speak!
I had the dog for only 30 days and in a short time the dog learned to point birds, hold birds, and use his head rather than his feet.

I am not being cross on this I really don't see enough or any of the tests. But I am a firm believer once the drive is there and the dog can handle some presure it is time to make this dog handle for the hunter. It has been said millions of times that why let a dog learn bad habbits only to give one more work to finish this dog.

Food for thought here: If i was to own this dog and ran in this trial format, I would bet a dozen donutes he would be Broke! The fact the judges told the handler to release the dog while on point without knowing he was pointing a bird as he was to do so is bad training in any formate!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:51 pm

Kevin wrote:I agree 100% with that larue

But the thing with the Dk testing is that the derby is only held in the spring, so you many have no choice but to run a 15 month old dog. This is the position I am in, as my pup was born in december.

As for he NAVHDA I believe you are right, I plan on testing next month, pup will be just shy of 5 months.

Not testing your training on this but, you mean to tell me you have done no formal training with this dog???? Even if you have not does not mean he will not finish out but I could never let a dog go this long without having some influince in the training aspect? Just my thoughts!

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:13 pm

tak,,I will give you an example of training,,vs exposure in a n/a pup....
My wife owns a sm...willie the munster would not swim...
I take all my young pups down to our land,,around creeks,,pounds,puddles,,ect with an older dog,,and let them watch and throw dummys for the older dogs,,,in almost all cases
the pups start to swim on there own,,by jealosy..I call this exposure...
Willie would never swim...so I had to carry willie out into the water,,
about 100 times before he would swim...I call this training....
Willie had to be trained to get a good water score...the gsp pups did not,,they where exposed to water...
So when someone looks at willies water score,,which was a 4,,they see the same score as gracie,,who was a very natural swimmer...That is the problem....
For you ,,,as a trainer you are given a job to do,,and you should do what you did,,you are getting paid...to get a dog ready for a test....but it is the drive to get a prize 1,,no matter what it takes,,
that corrupts the puppy data,,in my eyes...

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:39 pm

larue wrote:tak,,I will give you an example of training,,vs exposure in a n/a pup....
My wife owns a sm...willie the munster would not swim...
I take all my young pups down to our land,,around creeks,,pounds,puddles,,ect with an older dog,,and let them watch and throw dummys for the older dogs,,,in almost all cases
the pups start to swim on there own,,by jealosy..I call this exposure...
Willie would never swim...so I had to carry willie out into the water,,
about 100 times before he would swim...I call this training....
Willie had to be trained to get a good water score...the gsp pups did not,,they where exposed to water...
So when someone looks at willies water score,,which was a 4,,they see the same score as gracie,,who was a very natural swimmer...That is the problem....

Point well taken! Me See Know!

For you ,,,as a trainer you are given a job to do,,and you should do what you did,,you are getting paid...to get a dog ready for a test....but it is the drive to get a prize 1,,no matter what it takes,,
that corrupts the puppy data,,in my eyes...

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:07 pm

Tak,

I'm not sure whitch test you were talking about when you said you would not wait that long to break a dog...the DK derby I'm guessing. You are right, I will be doing formal traing at that point, the dog will be 15 months, and I have no choice as the tests are in the spring only. This is where larue's point comes in, natural ability cannot be judged accurately on a 15 mo old dog.

In regards to the NAVHDA N/A my dog will be 5 mo when tested next month, and I have not done formal training. I have however exposed him to pigeons, quail, water, gunfire and run a few tracks.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:39 am

I think my last post got messed up somewhere? or deleted?

This is what I said.

Larue, Point well taken.

Ahh I see it know it is outlined and in the middle of Larues Post.....
Grant!!!! Did I do that!

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:43 am

Kevin wrote:Tak,

I'm not sure whitch test you were talking about when you said you would not wait that long to break a dog...the DK derby I'm guessing. You are right, I will be doing formal traing at that point, the dog will be 15 months, and I have no choice as the tests are in the spring only. This is where larue's point comes in, natural ability cannot be judged accurately on a 15 mo old dog.

In regards to the NAVHDA N/A my dog will be 5 mo when tested next month, and I have not done formal training. I have however exposed him to pigeons, quail, water, gunfire and run a few tracks.

Great know you have me all messed up! Maybe it was the Derby???
I agree at 5 months I am doing alot of the same with my none NAVHDA tested dogs. I have never been to a test of this sort but I can say this I will before long!

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