CHEAP TITLES

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:39 am

Even though I am impressed with any title from any organization, it is important to me that the breeding stock excell at the highest level.

There are too many Field Champions and Dual Champions that got there by the owner/handler chasing the right judges in little, 30 minute walking trials. I have seen stakes where 3/4's of the entires were fillers, all owned by the same people. I saw one trial where the same pro handler had 8 of the 14 dogs in the stake, and he dodged a trial in his back yard to drive across 3 states to get there, no suprise he got points. Or you will see someone judge some of the stakes, and his buddies judge his dogs in the others. You run any of them enough, and you are going to win.

That is why, when picking a stud, I only look at the hour winners at the bigger trials.

Neil

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:16 am

The winner of an hour stake could be just the luckiest dog that day, or who's to say the judges of that stake were not buddies of the winner. Seems to me there can be taint in anything. I think I would look more at the dogs in the top point rating and how many trials they ran in that year to tell the story.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:19 am

That may work for you, but there are holes in that theory as well.

You know what they say about opinions, though.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:28 am

Everyone has their own opinion of dogs & titles. I have never found an owner who thought their dogs title was cheap. Also everyone has their method of ranking dogs to breed too and again their isn't any one method better than the others or everyone would be doing it and we all would be breeding to the same dog. Just doesn't work that way.

Ezzy

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:46 am

Well said Ezzy.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:23 am

Neil since I've seen you make the same comments on two different sites lately it must really be sticking in your craw.

Many of the trials I've attended in NM, TX, KS, MO will have one pro with half or more of the dogs in any given stake. They still have to beat all of their own dogs and the "other half" in order to win those stakes.

For the sake of a little clarity what pro are you talking about and what trials. CR

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:23 am

There are too many Field Champions and Dual Champions that got there by the owner/handler chasing the right judges in little, 30 minute walking trials

Sorry buddy...gonna have to call BS on that statement. Those "little 30 minute walking stakes" are A) few and far between in MOST of the regions - for your chosen Brittany breed aB) when was the last time YOU walked in any stake??????

Not being a fan of the walking trials myself, I do, however, see their merit and am not ashamed or too good to enter them. You DO realize that our National Amateur Gun Dog Championship is still a WALKING STAKE, don't you???

There are cheaters in every facet of every sport. A serious enthusiast not only knows their breed, they know the game well enough and know the players well enough to steer away from the cheaters too.

But Neil... to blanket statement that only those that compete and excel at the highest level should be used as breeding stock is to disregard an awful lot of excellent dogs out there and also reduces the gene pool dramatically. Those excellent hour dog winners are a very small population...imagine if everybody only bred to them, how quickly the breed fancy would have it's tail end in a ringer genetically......and this would be a great folly.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:51 am

Neil Mace wrote:I have seen stakes where 3/4's of the entires were fillers, all owned by the same people. I saw one trial where the same pro handler had 8 of the 14 dogs in the stake, and he dodged a trial in his back yard to drive across 3 states to get there, no suprise he got points. Or you will see someone judge some of the stakes, and his buddies judge his dogs in the others. You run any of them enough, and you are going to win.

Sounds like a Brittany trial to me.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:15 am

Everbody has there own opinion on this and that is great. How many of us hunt off horseback? 90% or more of us hunt off foot, I would say if you take most hour horseback shooting dogs and foot hunt them they are going to hunt to the terrain. Now in saying that lets say a guy has no horse and he has been doing nothing but walking trials, and doing well, you mean you would not consider him at all? heck I know some multiple hour shooting dogs that got there FC in walking stakes. Application is just as important in training for horseback stakes, not just having a dog that can run a course for an hour, that dog has been trained off horseback, trained off a wheeler, pushed around the course, some dogs just do not get that part of training regimen, for walking stakes. I do not care how many hour stakes that dog has won if it cannot hunt, it is no good to me. Hunting around a course and winning is different than a dog running around the course, and finding a bird. Just my opinion and there are many and we all have a right to it.

Chip

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:02 am

no matter what one does there is always something.

Just because one chosse to pick only what they percieve as the cream of the crop there is no garantee that the pup they get will even amount to that.

I know many trial had it not been for those type who will come and IE fill a trial...you could knock out half the trials around and that is many different formats of trials.

you can go that way and have dogs flop and fail

We need to support trials no matter ...condeming them and knocking a title to being CHEAP is an elistist attitude which is nothing more then being petty with a hi snob attitude.

Thanks for the bitter beer face post

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:03 pm

In all fairness I think I know what Mr. Mace is referring to and have pm'd him suggesting he come back and clarify his position.

I don't think his intention was to insult everone with a titled dog, knowing him I believe it was aimed at one particular individual and he managed to insult a whole lot of people unintentionally.

Hopefully he will come back and clarify his position. CR

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:14 pm

If this thread is about one person then I think it is even worse than any of us thought. A board like this is no place to make a blanket statement about an individual unless you are trying to make yourself and your dogs record appear better than it probably is.

I would like to think Neil is better than that.

Ezzy

larue · Post by **larue** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:09 pm

problem with hour events is there are alot of people who just cannot run in them,and it has nothing to do with the dogs they own.
As most hour stakes take more than a day to run,and are all over the country,many dogs never get a chance to see them.
Take my living in wis,the closest would be mich,yet if I want to run
wild bird events I need to take 2 weeks off for the event and traveling time,much less the time it takes to get a dog tuned into the wild birds vs
planted birds.
Many people cannot devote this type of time or investment to run hour events.

I am not bashing hour stakes,they are great for the breed,just pointing out
that there are many very nice dogs out there that never get a chance
to run hour events.

The simple answer to the problem is to just go watch the dogs you are interested in,you will be able to tell if the dog is what you want,regardless
of the dogs titles.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:47 pm

Neil Mace wrote:Even though I am impressed with any title from any organization, it is important to me that the breeding stock excell at the highest level.

Neil

With the above emphized, I will stand by the rest of my statement.

I have great respect for walking trials, not only is the Brittany National Amatuer GD Ch walking, so are a number of other significant stakes, including the MI Open Gun Dog Ch. There are also a good number of AF pointer walking Ch. What I have a gripe with is the little AKC set-up trials, just as I said!

That was my only point.

Neil

P.S. Rose, I do not care to have you as a pen pal.

N

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:54 pm

As we said before, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Everybody has one.....

I've seen some really nice dogs run at "little" akc trials. Guess they are garabage, in your view. I definitely would feed them and definitely would be proud to own, run or breed to them.

By the way, some of the one-hour dogs do run the weekend trials. They win in both. Did you know that???

Geez.

Justin

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:15 pm

Neil the pen pal sentiment is certainly shared.

You were however asked to clarify your statement, please do so.

I saw one trial where the same pro handler had 8 of the 14 dogs in the stake, and he dodged a trial in his back yard to drive across 3 states to get there, no suprise he got points.

Name the pro, the trial attended and the one "trial in his back yard" that was dodged. CR

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:07 pm

Home cookin' is alive and well in field trialing as it is in the show world. Not rampant mind you, but it does go on. If you haven't witnessed it you aren't paying very close attention, or you haven't been to many trials.
So no one has ever seen, at a small trial, dogs that were turned loose and then picked up in order to make the stake a major. Or people that don't go to other trials out of "their backyard" even if they have the means. Or opt out of trials because of whose judging? Must just be urban legend.

That said, there ARE dogs that have backed into titles, just as there are dogs that just need that point or two that can't seem to get a break. Doesn't mean they aren't good dogs.
Ride or walk enough braces and you'll see dogs get put up that shouldn't have placed. It happens. It's not an epidemic but it does occur.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:08 pm

Aw geez. Here I like both you guys, and you seem to have a dislike for each other that I don't understand.

Charlie, I have seen pros "duck" local trials many times. In our area it used to happen quite a bit because some of the local trials were just slanted towards a certain breed. There was no point going to the Weim trial here 25 years ago even if the stakes were open to all breeds. Weims were going to take all the FC points. We all knew that. So we would drive to SD or WI. I have known pros to duck trials because the competition was going to be too stiff also, to drive to a trial where it was going to be easier. So what, that is how the AKC game is played.

I agree with Neil's view that the hour dog is the dog to look to for breeding stock, although I would probably not have started the thread with the name "CHEAP TITLES." I pretty much respect anyone's FC or AFC for what it is, a statement that the dog is an accomplished half hour dog, and probably a heck of a nice hunter. And being a lifelong hunter myself, I say that as the highest form of compliment.

My own personal experience, though, is that the hour stakes are not just twice as demanding as the half hour, they are about four times harder. The dog needs to be a much better athlete for one thing. And it is also possible to get a "green broke" dog around in the half hour once in awhile. It just is not going to happen in the hour stake. That dog better be stone cold broke, and with style to boot.

The hour judges are not hesitant to withhold if no dog meets the high standards of the stake. I have not ever seen a Gun Dog stake where First was withheld, and very rarely seen one where it was withheld in the All Age.

Neil might have chosen a different title for the thread, but I agree with his general viewpoint about hour dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:10 pm

Withheld,

You forgot to end that with IMO.

Ezzy

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:57 pm

I just don't understand where Neil is going with this. This is just a rant? Why do people have to get on here and be so rude. He isn't trying to accoplish anything think with this thread except piss people off and thats stupid. Sorry if your dog got beat its happened to me also and still I don't go around making others feel bad. These types of threads should be deleted because they get us no where. Neil next time call someone who cares. IMO And also I have 2-3 of the bigger /brittany pros that come to my back yard twice a year. But you know what I'm going to do to beat them is get a dog that will beat theirs not make some big deal about it on the internet. Thats life do something about it...

Sorry 4 my rant everyone but i just hate posts like this...

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:13 pm

John,

You are correct, I should have used a less offensive title. As for Rose, he seems to be objecting a bit much, not sure why, since I don't know about GSP trials, I don't attend them, but I do know cases where just what I said goes on:

A pro goes to a little, out of the way, walking trial to judge his buddy's dogs, they judge his, if he has 8 of the 14 dogs in the open stake, he only has to beat 6 amateur dogs, with Puppy and Derby points, he has to do that twice and he has a Field Champion.

I think it a major flaw in the AKC system.

Didn't say and didn't mean anything other than that. So sticking to the point, anyone want to justify it?

Neil

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:24 pm

You maybe couldve started by saying things like that. Not sure on the major win but does 14 dogs justify you winning a major? As you need a major win to be a FC as a brittany.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:20 pm

A pro goes to a little, out of the way, walking trial to judge his buddy's dogs, they judge his

Like I said before, there are cheaters in every sport. I have run under the exact conditions you describe above and have been screwed out of the points. Lesson learned....KNOW YOUR COMPETITION and steer clear of the BS. This happened to me only ONCE, and trust me the hosting club came darn close to losing their AKC license to hold trials over the whole affair.

n retrospect, that pro hasn't gotten much done over the years either.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:20 pm

Neil, I came to your trial to see different grounds, I would hate to think that people thought we were dodging competition. I have also driven to GA, Al , and NC to see the grounds that people talk about. We have no idea who will be there. In the case of the southern trials there were several pros there with large entries. The Tennessee trial wasn't that big I thought they appreciated the entries.

greyrockd · Post by **greyrockd** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:23 pm

Wagonmaster

I have known pros to duck trials because the competition was going to be too stiff also, to drive to a trial where it was going to be easier.

Name the pro's that ducked.
I want names NOW.
just kidding,but I wouldn't want my dogs with them,
this is a fun site but it can raise your blood pressure,I'm not a well spoken
man and sometimes the way a guy says someting doen't come across the way he wanted,its not to hurt anyone or be mean
so I hope you like some folks get a litte thicker skin,and lighten up.

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:38 pm

It is foolish to drive extra distance for an easy trial. There is so much that can happen during a stake that no win is certain. I have run in stakes where all I had to do was have a bird, but my dog like many others went birdless.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:44 pm

I can give you a good example of a "pro ducking a trial in his back yard". A few weeks ago I had an opportunity to go to one of two trials.

I could attend a Britt trial that was about 4.5 hours away.

Or I could attend a GSP club trial that was six hours away.

I have one Britt, and 13 GSP's I can enter. I have three dogs well on the way towards finishing their FC's who really need retrieving points. Since the Britt trial doesn't offer retrieving stakes which trial does it make more sense to enter?

Of the original sixteen entries in one stake I had seven. On the day of the trial two were pulled so it ended up being a 13/14 dog stake. None were picked up at the line.

Of the dogs I had entered three of those dogs have multiple wins, and placements all in major stakes, in five different states under a lot of different judges in OGD, OLGD, OAA, two of them had impressive showings at the AKC Gun dog Championsips last year in both the first series and the call back/second series.

Four of the other dogs are young just coming out of derby. Two of those had numerous placements and wins in puppy and derby stakes. The other only ran in two derby stakes and placed in one of them, behind two of my other dogs, and one of my client dogs. The last of the young dogs is probably a better hunt test candidate than an FT dog but hey, it's a walking trial and I'd never seen these grounds so I didn't know how tight or open they are. He is however a "very broke" dog and one that tends to perform at a higher level than normal when in competitive situations.

So here I sit trying to decide which trial to go to. The answer seemed pretty clear to me. It made no difference to me that one of those trials was a HB trial and the other a walking stake, I will run all of them in either type trial.

Yes I won one of those adult stakes and did so with a dog that did an outstanding job worthy of the win. It was I think his 13th placement in three years. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

As for pro's loading up stakes with half broke derby dogs to make it a major. Well unfortunately yes it can happen. If it happens very often and people complain to the AKC performance office though you can bet that club is going to have a very hard time putting on any trials for some time in the future without having a rep at each and every one of them.

Juding your buddies dogs? Yes it happens, how can it not. Qualified judges are darned hard to come by and let's face it the job doesn't pay much. If I'm lucky when I get asked to judge I'll get comped some meals, maybe a motel room one night, and 1/4-1/2 my fuel expenses one way. If I'm not judging several stakes all I ever ask for is lunch and supper the day I'm judging. Most of those I know that judge work in a similar manner.

In the case of the trial I was speaking of above, indeed I did judge at that trial as well. Two days before the trial one of the judges begged off due to illness and I was asked at the last minute to judge one of the amateur stakes for them. Was there any quid pro quo? I don't see how their could be. None of the judges that were in the saddle for my dogs ran dogs under me while I was judging. The club was nice enough to buy supper on Saturday night for my wife and I and let me take home six chukar!

Ducking certain judges? A smart handler isn't going to run under a judge they have a personal problem with, or that they know to be dishonest or breed/kennel blind. I've run under probably a hundred different judges now and I can't think of a handful I wouldn't run under again. I know of a couple of other's I haven't run under and wouldn't because I know them to be of poor character. Again though if clubs routinely use judges that people know to be of questionable character, people quit going to their trials and they have a hard time putting together major stakes, they are also likely to end up with an AKC rep "visiting" future trials.

For whomever it was above that asked, a "major" typically is considered to be a stake with 13 or more dogs in it where a dog can earn 3 or more points in the stake.

This game is not perfect, nothing that involves people and comptetition is. For a lot of us the sport brings out the best in both ourselves and our dogs, unfortunately for some it brings out dishonesty and bitterness. If I ever get to that point I'll just walk away from it. CR

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:01 pm

but my dog like many others went birdless.

Aaaahhh...come on Bill...you know that a birdless dog can win.....even if it's only for a minute or two

ROFL....

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:09 pm

WildRose wrote:As for pro's loading up stakes with half broke derby dogs to make it a major. Well unfortunately yes it can happen. If it happens very often and people complain to the AKC performance office though you can bet that club is going to have a very hard time putting on any trials for some time in the future without having a rep at each and every one of them.CR

CR,

How does the club get in trouble in this example? The secretary takes each entry in good faith. The pro, as the agent, make the entry into the proper stake correct?

Can you imagine the howls of pros when the secretary decides, "Nope, that ain't a Gun Dog....too young."

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:11 pm

CR you forgot to end with IMO. C'mon Ezzy 95% of the posts are opinion...gsp's are half pointer, leather collars are best, my dog is great, this dog food is better than that one. Even the posts with hard facts get twisted and misconstrued. So I would say it is pretty redundant to end a post with IMO.
IMO

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:19 pm

The clubs rarely get in trouble, if at all. And around the midwest at the trials I have been to you would be hard pressed to find one that an AKC rep. was not in attendance at some point. :roll:
Some people have a pretty Rosie perspective on things, Charlie Rose that is.IMO

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:32 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
WildRose wrote:As for pro's loading up stakes with half broke derby dogs to make it a major. Well unfortunately yes it can happen. If it happens very often and people complain to the AKC performance office though you can bet that club is going to have a very hard time putting on any trials for some time in the future without having a rep at each and every one of them.CR
CR,

How does the club get in trouble in this example? The secretary takes each entry in good faith. The pro, as the agent, make the entry into the proper stake correct?

Can you imagine the howls of pros when the secretary decides, "Nope, that ain't a Gun Dog....too young."

Wynd since I know of some clubs where this has gone on, and they ended up being rather closely supervised by AKC reps in future trials I know it to be the case.

It's up to the participants to keep the game clean, AKC can't do anything if no one ever reports a problem.

Mostly it's a self curing issue though because a guy like me simply won't continue going to trials where it's obvious there's a hidden or not so hidden agenda. CR

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:35 pm

withheld wrote:The clubs rarely get in trouble, if at all. And around the midwest at the trials I have been to you would be hard pressed to find one that an AKC rep. was not in attendance at some point. :roll:
Some people have a pretty Rosie perspective on things, Charlie Rose that is.IMO

No I'm not looking at the world through rose colored glasses. I've attended a few trials where it was obvious there were problems. They simply don't get my entries in the future. There are in my experience far more trials run cleanly than those that are not.

My closest friends in this game are also my toughest competition. We shake each other's hands when we win, we scout each others dogs, in some cases even handle each other's dogs.

If you can't trust the people running a trial you are planning to attend then you are a fool to spend your time and money there. Go some place else where you do feel you can get a fair shake. If you go to enough of them and still can't win, it's probably not the judges or the competition to blame. CR

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:11 pm

It's not sour grapes at all. But when people get on here and say it doesn't happen well......to say it doesn't exist is untrue. IMO
As for calling yourself a "pro" field trialer..... well, that is in the eye of the beerholder. Especially when 9/10 of the dogs are your own. Pro hunting dog trainer yes, but Keith Gulledge you ain't.IMO
Just calling a spade a shovel Charlie.IMprofessionalO

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:15 pm

I have to agree with Charlie on this one.

There are a couple of judges I wont' run under and club's whose trials/tests I won't go to. Ran under one judge a couple of years ago who won't even look at a Weim in a hunt test. Heck I paid my money just like everyone else and this guy didn't even give me the courtesy to look at my dog! I told a friend of mine about him after I found out she was entered in a test in which he was judging. When she called me at the end of the day she told me that she got the impression he just didnt like the Weimaraner breed and was determined to just fail them in every test. He failed her bitch on hunting when in fact she had 3 finds and worked them very well. I know this bitch well and she does hunt!

So I won't enter under him again.

There are also show judges who I have had turn their backs on my dogs in the ring and clearly avoid looking at them. Then they will put up a dog that does not fit the standard. So I won't give them the satisfaction of showing to them. A few of us complained to the AKC rep in Jan at a show about a judge (he's provisional) and she watched him closely after that. (BTW show judges get paid)

You just learn who to show your dogs to and who not to show them to.

Don't be sour grapes when you lose. I can't say that I blame a pro for going to a trial where he knows his dog/s will run better on those particular grounds. Also why go to a trial that doesn't have retrieving stakes when you have dogs that need pts. from retrieving stakes?? The trials need the pros to come to them to help pay expenses. When a pro brings a string of 10 dogs that means a lot of money for a club!

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:17 pm

[quote]My closest friends in this game are also my toughest competition. We shake each other's hands when we win, we scout each others dogs, in some cases even handle each other's dogs. [/quote]

That is the way I see it too. That is what it is all about. But mostly it's about the dogs.

Sometimes a big horse trailer carries more than dogs and horses, gotta have room for that ego too.IMO

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:01 am

withheld wrote:It's not sour grapes at all. But when people get on here and say it doesn't happen well......to say it doesn't exist is untrue. IMO
As for calling yourself a "pro" field trialer..... well, that is in the eye of the beerholder. Especially when 9/10 of the dogs are your own. Pro hunting dog trainer yes, but Keith Gulledge you ain't.IMO
Just calling a spade a shovel Charlie.IMprofessionalO

Snide comments from someone hiding behind an annonymous login on the internet, not surprising, but certainly disappointing.

I don't claim to be a "field trial pro", and in fact I run primarily my own dogs. I don't see as I've ever compared myself to Keith Gullege, but to one day achieve his level of success would be a worthy goal.

By rule I was considred a "Pro" the day I entered my first field trial. Not because of anything I'd done trialing or testing but because I had been training hunting dogs for the public for many years. It's not a "title" or something I call myself, I get paid to train dogs for others so according to AKC I'm a "Pro".

No one I know of including myself claims that the field trial game is totally free of cheating, or questionable activities. Any human endeavor and even more so those where competition is present is going to have it's share of problem individuals. As widely as I've traveled though trialing I've seen very little of it.

I will say this, I've beaten and been beaten by the likes of Keith, Bryan Long, Jim West, Dennis Brath and probalby every GSP pro you know, that runs in the middle third of the US. We dont' have to cheat to have a good day in the placements, and we dont' let sour grapes, or a run in with one or two sorry people ruin it all for us. When we win we genrally deserve it, when we loose, we generally deserve it as well. In a lot of the bigger stakes I've participated in or judged often we will have six or eight really class dogs, any one of which is worthy of a win. On that day however we/they (whomever is judging) has to make the call. Most of the judges I've been paired with, or run under I truly believe are making honest calls. Whether or not I agree with their calls when I'm the one handling is irrelevant, I'm paying to run dogs, not being paid for my opinion.

Blanket statements that reflect poorly on the sport as a whole are innacurate and do no one any good. CR

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:25 am

Withheld,

Please steer your comments back on the topic. Make it about the topic and about providing useful information.

Greg J.

withheld · Post by **withheld** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:42 am

Sorry. Charlie I apologize, I just like to mess with ya. You do tend to take yourself pretty seriously, lighten up, and I definately wasn't comparing you to Keith.
I love to run my dogs, and 99% of the people are great at every trial I've been to.
I'm not complaining just being more of a devil's advocate.
Once again just giving the other side of the coin.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:04 am

Rose told an interesting story about how he comes to have 1/2 the dogs in a stake, let me tell one.

When Azul needed 2 points to finish his FC, even an Amateur 2nd, I drove 600 miles past three trials, to enter him in a 44 dog Open stake with 5 pros. I entered one dog. When we won, the judges told me they had 27 dogs with multiple clean finds.

The title before Azul name reads the same as the one that beat 6 amatuer dogs.

That is why I look to the dogs high on the Purina points list for breeding stock, and Azul has never been on it.

Got to thank Rose for making my point, even though I did not have him in mind when I started the thread. It is not cheating, there is no AKC violations, it is just "working" the system.

Neil

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 am

WildRose wrote:Wynd since I know of some clubs where this has gone on, and they ended up being rather closely supervised by AKC reps in future trials I know it to be the case.

It's up to the participants to keep the game clean, AKC can't do anything if no one ever reports a problem.

Mostly it's a self curing issue though because a guy like me simply won't continue going to trials where it's obvious there's a hidden or not so hidden agenda. CR

CR,

I was asking how the clubs get, or got, into a bind with the AKC. There is no requirement in a Gun Dog stake stating that the dog must be steady to wing and shot to be entered. They just have to be a minimum of 6 months old on the first published day of the event.

In fact the whole stinking stake could be 7 month old dogs, and a singular "broke" dog. It isn't against the guidelines, may be unethical, but not against the guidelines.

I don't condone it, and dang sure wouldn't be happy about judging it, but people should be allowed to enter dogs as they see fit.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:17 am

Clubs get in trouble when people who compete complain to them and present some facts. It happens. On the other hand many complaints are just from people who lost. As you can read on this very post everyone who runs their dogs is very honest and straight forward but the people they compete with are a little shady. We all have legitiment reasons for doing what we do its just the other people who don't.

I think truth be known probably 90% of the people and dogs participating are honest and straight forward, and 99% of the judges are also, but for some reason the losers always are looking for an excuse as to why they lost. And the results of that are just what you see. "My dog is better than your dog because--------------" Fill in the blanks.

We seem to forget when we enter any competion we already know how good our own dog is and all we are doing is paying for the judges opinion. It's only when he doesn't agree that we need the excuses.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:30 am

n fact the whole stinking stake could be 7 month old dogs, and a singular "broke" dog. It isn't against the guidelines, may be unethical, but not against the guidelines.

I don't condone it, and dang sure wouldn't be happy about judging it, but people should be allowed to enter dogs as they see fit.

If a given dog is better than all others in the stake, but does not deliver a worthy performance, the judges can not the judges withhold the placement? I know that they are under pressure to give placements, but can they not withhold all placements?

Greg J.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:38 am

but can they not withhold all placements?

Yes the judges can withhold placements, in fact, they are required to in the rules. And that one dog might well have given a performance worthy of a National Championship win.

Neil

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:55 am

Yes the judges can withhold placements, in fact, they are required to in the rules. And that one dog might well have given a performance worthy of a National Championship win.

And when that happens they usually award the winner 1st and with hold all other placements so the others don't get any points and can not be moved up to the winners slot if for some reason the real winner would be disqualified.

Ezzy

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:22 am

Got to thank Rose for making my point, even though I did not have him in mind when I started the thread. It is not cheating, there is no AKC violations, it is just "working" the system.

Neil how did I "work the system"?

Why would it have made more sense for me to drive the the britt club trial when I needed retrieving points more than I needed non retrieving points?

In fact the whole stinking stake could be 7 month old dogs, and a singular "broke" dog. It isn't against the guidelines, may be unethical, but not against the guidelines.

While it may not violate any specific rules letter by letter it definitely violates the "conduct predjudicial to the sport". I have seen some clubs that all too frequently loaded stakes up with dogs that had no business being in an adult stake to create a major. Those clubs got a reputation for doing just that, and what do you know, they suddenly started having rep's show up to supervise their trials. One of them has not been allowed to have another trial since and probably won't until the individual guilty of setting things up that way is removed from the club. Since he's the only "real member" of the club that club is probably going to just fade away.

Judges are duty bound to with hold all placements in a stake if none of the dogs meets the minimum criteria for the stake. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. In my experience though if you have more than ten dogs entered you will usually have several that are worthy of a placement.

I've only judged one large open stake where we flat really had to scratch our heads to come up with any dogs worthy of a placement. Fortunately the last three braces of the day gave us some dogs that were quite deserving.

I don't like witholding placements, I feel like you have to judge the dogs you have, based on the performances given, under the conditions present on a given day. However when we don't have four dogs that are worthy, meet the criteria for the stake, I have witheld placements.

Is there pressure on judges to place dogs no matter what? Of course there is, no one likes to admit their dog wasn't worthy on any given day. However I'd rather be respected as being a fair judge who only awards a worthy performance than one who gives placements away in spite of the performances given. I may not get invited back to judge some places because of that stance but that's ok, I don't want to judge for a club that doesn't respect the game. Most of the judges I've known or run under look at it from a very similar perspective. CR

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:45 am

When Azul needed 2 points to finish his FC, even an Amateur 2nd, I drove 600 miles past three trials, to enter him in a 44 dog Open stake with 5 pros. I entered one dog. When we won, the judges told me they had 27 dogs with multiple clean finds.

I will give you this, without a doubt some performances are more impressive than others.

At the AKC GDCH (Ret) last year Moose and Abbey put down peformances that put them in the call back/second series. That put them in the top 16 of 77 entries. They had to get past a lot of very good dogs since over half the dogs in the stake had multiple clean finds.

Since they didn't win the stake though they recieve no points and no titles.

However if/when they get their FC's even if all the points they gather along the way are just in three and four point stakes they will have each defeated over a hundred dogs to get there.

Is it possible for someone to earn an FC without really ever having to beat any superior dogs along the way? Of course it is, but considering how few dogs earn an FC every year it's still a title that has significant meaning because most of the dogs earning it have had to beat a lot of quality dogs to get there.

I do think it's quite possible to state your own preferences for what you consider to be the "best" breeding stock without insulting anyone. At least it is for most of us.

I also think it's worthy to note that not many people see it the same way. There are a heck of a lot of truly worthy dogs that will never be entered in a single competitive event.

Being the best dog on any given day or series of days at a field trial doesn't make your dog any more valuable or important genetically than one that is just a great hunting dog. Titled dogs, and dogs that win big stakes just get a lot more press. CR

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:07 pm

"Aaaahhh...come on Bill...you know that a birdless dog can win.....even if it's only for a minute or two ROFL...."

I've been to a trial where derby dogs that went birdless were called back - and given the placement over dogs that had birds on course.....

Come on!

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:20 pm

I didn't say and didn't imply that people should not be proud of their dogs, I hope everyone is proud of his dog, even if it how he sits on the couch and gets his head petted.

I am proud of Azul, he is a nice dog, he has won from walking stakes to horseback All-Age, including beating some nice pointers in AF. And despite the fact he is out of Hall of Fame dogs, is the littermate to a female Dual National Champion, Dog of the Year, he is not offered at stud.

A dog can be a Field Champion by only defeating 38 dogs, and only needs to defeat 12 in Open stakes.

Of course there are a lot of nice dogs that never enter a field trial.

Neil

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:17 pm

Neil wrote:

A dog can be a Field Champion by only defeating 38 dogs, and only needs to defeat 12 in Open stakes.

You're right.

So what?

A dog can win an AF derby and then an AF Championship and never have pointed a single bird. Heck, some of the entries on the Garden State AA Championship over the past decade were pretty close to 12, and that was a qualifier for the National Championship!

On the AKC side, I can pull a performance report and see exactly how that dog got its FC title. Every single placement with number of starters and judges is listed. On the AF side, I've got to work a bit harder but I can dig through the copies of the Field to find the write-up.

The folks who are not willing to do the "due diligence" necessary to find this stuff out are not interested in anything more than the marketing or bragging value of the title, whether it's an AKC FC or AF CH.

Those of us who are interested in actual dog flesh, and not paper, will do the research to put the title "in perspective" regardless of the venue or organization.

JMO,
Dave

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I have known pros to duck trials because the competition was