dog trials

johnh · Post by **johnh** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:56 pm

So others understand rather then high-jacking the hunt test questions thread I felt I would like to address some of the comments made there, here. I have only written on this board one other time to help someone with a link to a pedigree site. I certainly am not a dog guru or guru on anything including writing.

Gundogguru, I have never seen a dog that was gone for fifteen minutes win in an AKC trial not even in all age hour stakes. Just because you only saw a flash of the dog does not mean the handler and the judge did not see more of the dog or at least know where the dog was. Don’t know much about hunting in SC but there are plenty of places I hunt where if you can see your dog it is not hunting. In those situations you have to trust your dogs to be where they should be. In AKC trials the majority of the dogs are gun dogs here is the brief standard for AKC gun dogs. Notice the number of times the word “must” is used in my opinion if a dog does not meet the standard it is not worthy of a win or a placement that could lead to the dog receiving points towards a AFC/FC title. Here is a link to a recent article on the AKC site

http://www.akc.org/events/field_trials/ ... rniowa.cfm

“1-C Gun dog and limited gun dog stakes. A Gun Dog must give a finished performance and must be under its handler's control at all times. It must handle kindly, with a minimum of noise and hacking by the handler. A Gun Dog must show a keen desire to hunt, must have a bold and attractive style of running, and must demonstrate not only intelligence in quartering and in seeking objectives but also the ability to find game. The dog must hunt for its handler at all times at a range suitable for a handler on foot, and should show or check in front of its handler frequently. It must cover adequate ground but never range out of sight for a length of time that would detract from its usefulness as a practical hunting dog. The dog must locate game, must point staunchly, and must be steady to wing and shot. Intelligent use of the wind and terrain in locating game, accurate nose, and style and intensity on point, are essential.

A dog that does not point cannot be placed. A dog should not be called back to point after the running of its brace except under the most extreme and unusual circumstances.

At least 30 minutes shall be allowed for each heat.”

Pear, I do not know what type of trials that you run in but I suspect it is what I call the timed run and guns “bird championships”. I have run in them with a dog that I also have run in NAVHDA, AKC walking/horse back trial/hunt tests, AF horse back, NSTRA etc.… the dog is a AFC, UT1, MH and has won the majority of the timed run and guns she has been entered in. This particular dog is considered one of the most consistent dogs in the area when it comes to placing in AKC horse back/walking trials yet it also has won the majority of the timed run and guns it has been run in. In the timed run and guns I doubt she has ever ranged farther then 50 yards in the horse back trials she fills up the course. If one has to “aimlessly wander around hunting a dog” the dog is not meeting the standard.

For the record I have hunted a heck of a lot more then I have ever run dogs in events. What I have found is what I call a balance of cooperation and independence is not only required for me to have a nice hunting dog but is the same balance that the dogs I like exhibit in dog events.

Some myths I hear all to often are trial dogs all run to big truth is some do some don’t the good ones adjust according to a variety of situations and it is not “run” if a dog is getting it right but hunt. Another is trial dogs do not make good companion/ house dogs. I “live” with mine in the house and they have a very calm demeanor and can be trusted not only in the house alone for hours but in a number of other situation that many dog owners do not trust their dogs to be put in.
I also hear trialers “have deep pockets” I do not see what that has to do with trials but I am far from wealthy and more times then not the people making this claim are financially better off then I. I also hear ego brought up and I realize many do use dogs to boost their egos and it is not just trialers I find it pathetic. I also here the whining about bragging it ain’t bragging if it is fact but the truth of the matter is most of the trialers I know are far from braggarts they are quite nonchalant about a dogs accomplishments. Truth is most of them just show up, shut up and put the dogs on the ground for the dogs to speak for themselves through actions.

I could talk disparaging about any of the formats I have run dogs in but I prefer to look for the exemplary examples. The reason I used gun dog stakes is simply because they are for the most part what I believe the majority of dogs are when one speaks of horse back trials I certainly have nothing against any other stakes or sanctioning bodies.

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:07 pm

What it all come's down to is what you like or dislike. I have been in 1 trial took 3rd place in amateur derby. and did not care for it or most of the people there they where just not that freindly. Some even said that my dog should not have got the 3rd place because she did not hunt big enough. Well she hunted big enough to beat there dogs. I just don't like to compete. I just like to see my dog do what they where born to do. Just my 2 cents. Like I said I tried the field trial thing and did much care for it nor most of the people that where there.

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:17 pm

gudoguru
i went to a hunt test at a visula club here in florida
every body was very friendly & made me& my gsp feel very welcome
& the same was true with the NSTRA trials
i have a 12 month old GSP male that has open derby points on him
will run him in NSTRA next year

Post by **pear** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:36 pm

Yes johnh (John if I may), I trial in what you refer to as "run and gun trials". I also participate in NAVHDA, (Life Member), having a NA Prize l and lll, and working on UT as we speak. I also participate in AKC hunt tests, (not trials) having one MH and one working on JH. I do some NASTRA, but don't participate often.
I have no idea why my name was used in your post. I suspect it has to do with my statement, about hunting an out of sight dog, in a post by "ward" I think................I stand behind that post. I'm not saying you do, but if someone is aimlessly looking for their dog it's not hunting for them , but for it's self. The (I believe)post in question was addressing a lost dog, by description. I don't believe I ever said that just because a dog can't be seen makes it lost. Here in WV your dog can be twenty yards from you and be out of sight, and temporarily lost. When I encounter that I use a bell or beeper collar. (Understanding that in some trials that is not allowed)
To address some of your other concerns........bragging....and the facts..........well sometimes, how you present the facts, denotes the demeanor of the statement, not necessarily the distorting of the facts.
Facts are, I've got a couple pretty good dogs too, and the real facts are..........I've beaten some pretty good dogs and been embarrassed by some pretty mediocre dogs.
As for "deep pockets" I'm far from wealthy, but I have to say, if I had shallow pockets, I'd be out of the game. I work hard too play hard. I estimate I spent over $10,000 last year playing with my kids (dogs)..............nobody gave me anything, and my rich uncle died in the poorhouse. So I worked hard to play hard. I guess your right you don't have to have deep pockets..........just the desire to work hard to play.
We're all here to share info and have good discussion, all at the pleasure of Grant and for the good of our dogs.
I certainly respect your right to your opinion and ask you respect my right to my/our opinions.

"The best and most beautiful things in life cannot be seen or touched , but are felt in the heart"

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:43 pm

pear it wasnt me

Post by **pear** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:20 pm

Ward you are right..........I went on the hunt and I think it was a post by "gundogguru", not sure. It makes no differance, I was singled out for some reason. I don't know "johnh" from Adam, but I detected an agenda of some sort..........with me drawn into it. ............Randy"pear"Bauman

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:05 pm

Pear you and I where singled out in this thread. looks to me we are in good company

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:10 pm

I hate posts about people rather than about the dogs and how we act or react to them.

I didnt see the posts refered to so I guess from my perspective this one was out of line even though everyone has a right to their opinion.

Quess it was more how it was said than what it said. Just didn't sound friendly or helpful in any way.

Ezzy

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:21 pm

My biggest problem lying in the horse-back trials is this, and this coming from a prominent trainer running dogs at Booneville. "This being" a dog winning with 1 find at 58 min. Esp when there were dogs with several clean finds other than this. Is this what we want for the future of our breed? I don`t go to the trials and never had any desire to run my dogs off of horse-back, now, there are more and more walking trials, which is encouraging as to their popularity. There are still things I hear about how these are conducted and the politics that back me off here. As long as there are gun dog forums there are the field trial dog vs the hunting dog debates, no one ever wins.... Unfortuatly I feel that field trials have changed the shape of my breed to the point of no return, and that may be a big part of why I won`t get involved. I suppose the whole point to the article and the post, is to say that the GSP can still be versatile and be a field trial dog and a hunting dog, and that is truely wonderful, point made,,,,,,,oh, and that a dog thats gone for 15 min won`t be put up.

ward myers · Post by **ward myers** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:36 pm

all i can say is im not going to mention names i was treated like royalty by a certan person before & after hunt test but was scum off the earth by same person at a fun show match witch my gsp took all the ribbons home that night & beat her vis
i complemented her vis i was setting right next to her & she wouldnt even acknowledge i was alive,im sorry but it got the best of me , so i pushed her buttons & told her only problem with her vis is that it didnt have any spots :shock:

but she asked me to join vis club here i handed her a check
i guess theres a difference betwen a test & only 1 winner in a trial
in peoples personalitys

larue · Post by **larue** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:17 am

snips,,,you are going to find dogs who win,with inconsistant
work,,with only one find..I cannot ever argue that fact...
You are also going to find dogs who consistanlty find birds,,who go with..and are always in the money...
A perfect run in a field trial is not a run off,,that is found standing..
It is a consistant foward run,,that a dog hangs out foward,,reaching for objectiives,staying on cover edges,,
SHOWING the judges what a great dog he is...and haveing mulitple broke finds...Throw in a great back,,and a strong finish,
to show the dogs indurance,,and you will win any stake..
A great run has a feel to it,,it flows,,it is smooth,,the dog is best decribed as being on a string...yet way out ahead,,,
I am sure you get the same feeling in a nstra run,,when your dog seems to go where you want it,,before you tell it to,,and goes bird to bird...
You have owned great mulitple championed nstra dogs,,and I will go out on a limb,,and bet that at times they were beat by inconsistant dogs who had a good day...but when looked at trial after trial,,your dogs ruled.
It is the same in field trials,,a one find a at 58 minutes will win
sometimes,,but consistant performances win alot..

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:31 am

I hve heard year after year, time after time, that if you want to win you don`t want a dog that finds too many birds. In other words, if they are putting down a great foreward run,then they CAN`T be finding MANY if ANY birds. IDEALLY, a great foreward run with 1 or 2 finds an hour IS what you want. Thats fine for those that like that kind of thing, I just don`t feel like thats what our breed is about. More run than birds. I think it`s GREAT that you took a Versatile dog and CH him in FT`s, but that is an exception to the rule. Not done on the whole...

johnh · Post by **johnh** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:10 pm

GDG, I think I miss read what you meant. I think you had "can" when you meant "can't". I agree if you can't see your dog most of the time, he/she isn't hunting for/with you. I field trial in a venue that requires a good foot hunting dog. Often in cover and roughness that makes it a challenge to see a good close foot hunter. I don't believe I'd enjoy riding a horse aimlessly hunting my dog, hoping to find it on point. Sorry I mistook your original post........."pear"

Pear what field trials I have seen and they have been few. The dogs cast off and there gone out of sight. Your ride for 15 minutes and you mite see a flash of dog then nothing then you mite or mite not find your dog on point. or a spotter finds your dog on point. My way of thinking is that if I can't see my dog work then why have one. I know this going to open a can of worms to all those people that like field trials. I just don't think that a dog that runs wide "bad word here" open in pretty much a striaght line is a great bird dog. I don't think much of a dog that I have to have a horse just so I can keep up with them is much of a Hunting partner. I think that most field trial people have great big egos. and very deep pockets. and like to say I have a 100 times champion FC AFC. I just don't understand it. I live with my dogs. What field breed dog I have been around don't seem like they would make very good house pets. This is just my opinion

Are the two posts above not speaking of trials, trialers and trial dogs in a derogatory manner? Maybe I am wrong if I am then I apologize. If not I am a trialer and my dogs are trial dogs so I am just giving my opinion and pointing out who and why. As I said in my previous post I could certainly write derogatory things about any of the venues I have run dogs in but I choose to look for the positives. I really do not have a problem with any venue I do have a problem with people using blanket statements for all dogs and people that participate in any venue. It appears to me from reading this board that many posters here are into tests I think that is great. But suppose I was to say some of the things I feel are negatives in hunt tests in a way that degraded all hunt test dogs and people that run dogs in them? Heck a couple of my buddies went down and judged a hunt test that some of you ran dogs in they liked your dogs and said the people were nice. They are also both trialers, hunt testers, hunters etc.

Randy the paragraph I typed that started with pear was directed at you. I have never spent $10,000 dollars in a year on dogs and that includes the year I bought a horse and trailer. << edited by grant>>I have no agenda I am not a breeder or a pro trainer and I enjoy the majority of your posts. As to aimlessly following dogs with a horse here is one AKC rule that addresses the issue. “Judges should not follow a handler that roams off the designated route of the course. Judges must not gallop to keep pace with handlers that move faster than at a flat walk (refer also to Procedure 6-L).” If some one has to ride off the course more then likely they are trying to get a guided find or their dog does not handle in either instance the dog is not showing what a dog should to be a FC/AFC. I feel if a dog can not hunt were it should with out me helping then I ain’t got much of a dog and it does not mean self hunting. It means a dog that can do both hunt and stay with me with a very minimal amount of handling. I have never lost a dog in a trial.

Gundogguru I agree do what you want with your dogs and run in the events you enjoy but I do not see any reason to defame someone else’s. I read where you have dogs shown so I believe you may know why I took the field trial shots personal. How many times have you read or heard shows are ruining breeds or show dogs can’t hunt etc.? I say no venue is ruining breeds if anything is or has damaged entire breeds it is a lack of interest in the breeds. I have friends that show sporting breeds that I have hunted behind and watched in many field events including horse back trials and I think some are very nice dogs. I am not sure but it appears from the little picture you have GWP’s. Do you not have trial dogs in your dog’s pedigrees? I am well aware of the breeds that are often used as poster breeds for the theories of this or that ruining breeds I do not believe it.

johnh · Post by **johnh** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:39 pm

Brenda, I have seen dogs win with as many as 6 finds in a half hour stake but the dog demonstrated a heck of a lot more then just finding 6 pen raised birds. I have had the dog with the most finds and not had the dog used and I have had the dog with the most finds used.

Here is a couple of actual trial scenario’s but I could give several.

Dog A is turned loose and it finds birds on the path and runs the path for the entire course and has 7 finds. The dog never goes to any of the spots I would want a dog to go if I had been actually hunting. The dog did have a very nice back it was standing directly in the horse trail the pointing dog was about 50 yards to the right pointing a cluster of sumac.

Dog B immediately goes to cover and digs in and hunts the cover the entire brace but only has two finds. Not only does it go to the spots you would want a hunting dog to got to but always puts itself on the down wind side of cover or digs in. While riding in the gallery there are tame birds walking on the horse path.

Which dogs has demonstrated better bird finding ability and more importantly demonstrated a more complete package of a hunting dog? Truth is if A had been the only clean dog it would have been placed where it would not have gotten any points towards its FC. The dog simply did not meet the requirements in the written standard.

The last trial I was at here is what separated the winner of the derby from the second place dog. At beginning of the course was a creek running north and south the wind was out of the west the handler/course were on the West Side of the creek. The dog dropped down in the creek and hunted it the entire length I would say the dog was never more then 100 yards from the handler. It never yo yoed but did pop up once see if the handler was still coming behind it then went immediately back to hunting. It was rewarded with a find in the creek but I believe it only had two birds when some dogs had three and maybe even four finds. It was the only dog in the derby stake that hunted the creek using the wind/creek properly on that portion of the course. It not only demonstrated what I believe a good hunting dog would have done but showed me the potential I would like to see in a dog I would want as a prospect to be a FC. For all you vizsla fans out there it was a V and I own GSP’s and there were more GSP’s then V’s. It was a very nice dog and I am certain I could take it out and hunt it and have success with it. It also showed “keen desire to hunt, be bold and independent, have a fast, yet attractive, style of running, and demonstrate not only intelligence in seeking objectives but also the ability to find game.”

If it were not for trials do you think would you have found the dogs that make up your dogs? (I do not) Do you not believe the dogs in your dog’s ancestry could not win today? (I do) Why did you breed to Chuck and Judy’s Max dog was he not a trial dog? IMO he was one of the nicest AKC gun dogs running when he was campaigned and while I do not put much credence in the top ten with out knowing or seeing the dogs, he was number one AKC gun dog in I believe like 2000.

As to trials changing the breed if it has then it is because those dogs are more prevalent in the breed which would indicate to me that the majority desire that type of dog. But in my opinion it has not changed the breed but is has changed certain line just as many other things have. If I felt, as strongly about it as some do I would own DK’s I have seen DK’s I believe could win AKC gun dog trials. One of my friends put one up in a juvenile stake in I believe Kansas I asked him about the dog he said it was a very nice dog and he would not have put it up unless he felt it had the potential to become a FC.

PS I do not think any one venue including the JGHV, trials, NAVHDA, NSTRA, AF etc. or title including VC, KS, NFC, DC, MH etc.defines the breed.

johnh · Post by **johnh** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:29 pm

Pear just so you know the censored part was not derogatory to you in anyway. I merely pointed out that someone may believe you have deep pocket and feel there was something wrong with that, while I on the other hand said go for it. I also made a comment that someone may consider you egotistical since there are winners and losers in the timed run and guns. When I was typing it I was smiling but I guess it was not taken as tongue in cheek, humor. Good luck enjoy your dogs.

Larue small world I hope you did not mind my using a link thing to that article I thought he was a good example of a dog that meets the AKC gun dog standard and more. I asked a friend that judged him in his UT about him and they said he was a very nice dog. Seems like someone else I know judged him in master and also said the same thing. If Don likes him he is a good dog and I saw him run at Booneville and I believe in Lincoln NE and I liked him.

Post by **grant** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:56 pm

johnh wrote:Pear just so you know the censored part was not derogatory to you in anyway. I merely pointed out that someone may believe you have deep pocket and feel there was something wrong with that, while I on the other hand said go for it. I also made a comment that someone may consider you egotistical since there are winners and losers in the timed run and guns. When I was typing it I was smiling but I guess it was not taken as tongue in cheek, humor. Good luck enjoy your dogs.

Johnh,

Every post you’ve made on this board, with the exception of one, has had a negative tone. Initially you made your point, but continued to single people out. I don’t take your tongue & cheek humor well when you’ve been lurking on this board since 15/Apr/2004 and you’ve make only one helpful post. If you have a problem with the way I moderate, please don’t post here.

Grant

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:54 pm

John, we bred to Max because he was conformationally correct, and we were told he found too many birds...Thats right up our alley. I am seeing more and more dogs (I get in for training) with trial lines, that are squirrely on point, and would rather run than hunt a bird. Now, there are many different "trial lines" out there and I know thre are nice dogs running, an yes, there are some trial dogs in our bloodlines. Mostly the older bloodlines, I think you will be hard pressed to find any modern day popular big running trial dogs in our lines. Guess why..

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:59 pm

Johnh I think you took what I said about trial dogs and there owner/handlers wrong. I personally don't like them. thats my opinion. Yes I do have GWP's and have had them for 14 years. I do show my dogs They all have a CH in front of there name and 2 of them have a MH behind there name. And there is nobody on this forum that HATES the show world more than I. I don't think I defamed any body or anything on this forum.

larue · Post by **larue** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:52 am

john,,if you are refering to the dog I own that don kidd liked,,it was
max's daughter,,gracie..when I ran her in the futurity at boonevillie..I just talked to don,,about my newest pups entry..
and was surprised when he asked about her,,..

Snips,,I am surprised by your attitudes about trial dogs,,,in
that you speak in such a general manner...
I do not like nstra,,to me going around and around in a little
circle,with edges out of bounds,,in a mowed field ,proves very little
in a hunting dog...Yet I wll not speak poorly of nstra dogs,,becouse
I KNOW there are great dogs running in nstra...
Dogs that could,,and do,perform well in many venues...

When someone makes a statement that encompasses all trial dogs,,such as the staement about trial dogs produceing poor pointing dogs,,or dogs who do not hunt,,,it does get a reaction from people who pride themselves on producing/and running
nice gundogs....

snips,,I believe alot of your lines an go back to stuff tha dave hill,
and a some other wi trialers produced 20 years ago,,
and you wil find some of the same stuff,,mixed in with
some hightailling saddle,. in mine....
In fact if you really look at my pedigree's and the direction i am going,,you will find a very strong bumper/jackson linebreeding..
Some very old trial stuff that can do very well today..

I could run on and on,,but just as in any format,,lets not bash a
whole frmat,,from what we have heard,,or what we do not like about a few dogs,in a format..

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:44 am

I don`t want you to think I am bashing all trial lines, I believe I said there are many different lines running FT`s and some very nice dogs running. I just made note of what I am seeing in "some" lines that I have had in here to train. It can be an education as to what is out there... It`s the product of wanting run and not concentrating on characteristics that are equally important. I know NSTRA`s format is far from perfect too, but I guess I like the fact that I can go and get judged in a way that is not (Very little) about politics. As long as I have been running I could compete being a woman with Shorthairs against pointers, setters, ect. RicK and I have talked about running some walking trials, as I feel our dogs could fit in well, but it changes the way you train. Ricks Sam son and my Logan have all the run and hunt and style any dog could want, it`s just restarting things. At Logans age I would not, but Fritz could adjust well I believe. Rick left this a.m. for Arkansas to breed to a FC, I believe AA. And knowing the bitch he`s breeding and her dam, (and Sire) I think these dogs could perform any format offered, but they are all the old lines. One other note, FT dogs are judged on taking edges, and I still have yet to hunt where there are edges. We hunt primarily in Tx or Mt. and ND. Our dogs have to adjust to the different terrains and birds we`re hunting, so I am not sure why so much stock is put on running edges if not just for the FT format. I believe that format can be as unrealistic as NSTRA may be, so lets all go play our games and have fun doing it!

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:01 pm

Well said snips. Lets put this one to bed.

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