With Holding Placements

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:23 am

It is almost unheard of to withhold placements in a pointer/setter FDSB/American Field trial. In a Championship, if they do not have a clear champion they will go to a second serries, then if still none, the guidelines say to revert to first through thrid if the judges do not have a championship peformance, which makes some sense. But why withhold placements?

It seems to be the height of conceit for judges to say of all the dogs they saw run none where worthy of a placement. Due to factors, we as humans cannot understand, some days we just to not get flawless performances from our dogs. Then you award the placements to the best of the worst, and go on down the road.

Some have explained the AKC point system to a FC/AFC for the reason, but since the Purina Award is much more important to the top pointers and they still get points when an AF trial reverts, I am not so sure.

I think it is an ego thing with the judges. And some more negative judging, they should not be looking for the perfect dog, but the best dog under those conditions.

I can tell you it is very confusing to the AF guys and gives them even more ammo to think the other breeds are lessor to theirs.

Neil

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:02 am

I agree completely. I think that too many people have a set standard in their mind before they even see a dog run. I think many people want to compare dogs to dogs that they have seen run in the past, or even their own dogs, and that's just not fair. Every situation and trial is different. ie... weather, birds, etc.

You're right Neil, way too much negative judging.

Doug

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:35 am

I personally have no problem a judge with holding a championship. But I think you also need to look at the whole picture of a given trial and just not your preconcieved thoughts of what and all age race is. Wind always has alot to do with a way a dog runs. IMO an aa dog should run to the limits of where he can still hear his handler,,, in high wind he has to shorten up to be able to stay in contact. There are lots of examples such as this, so I think a standard has to be able to be moved for a given situation.
IMO,, if you do get in a situation where a championship is withheld I think you should do your best to place the top 3 dogs and rename it a Classic. Keeping the entry money and cash purse and/or all the prizes to me is kinda of a slap in the face to the participants. To me it leaves the host club up for alot of scrutiny,,,especially when there is 5k to 10k in prize money that wasn't given away. To me there has to be a better way of handling it than just calling it or looking at it as a "non event".

Anaconda Pintler · Post by **Anaconda Pintler** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:58 pm

While never attending one of these events yet, these last couple of paragraphs make a whole lot of sense to me. Thanks guys for giving you unbiased opinion and experience. R Heaton, what then happens to the prize money if the placements are withheld? If the host club keep it then hey guys I am going to have a trial on my place every weekend and nobody will win!

Any entries?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:11 pm

in AKC and Af there is no Prize money it is just for ribbons and points towards a title

Anaconda Pintler · Post by **Anaconda Pintler** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:17 pm

R-Heaton wrote: To me it leaves the host club up for alot of scrutiny,,,especially when there is 5k to 10k in prize money that wasn't given away. To me there has to be a better way of handling it than just calling it or looking at it as a "non event".

This is what my question was based on.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:25 pm

We have been camping all week and missed out on the other discussion. My dog ran that trial last year, the NGSPA Sharptail, and they withheld the championship in the allage, they reduced it a shooting dog, he had 2 finds in the allage and was named the champion as a shooting dog in that stake. In addition, in the Open Shooting Dog stake, he won that and was named the champion in the SD.

One week later went to the NGSPA Prarie Chicken and allage there with a great performance and he won that with one find. The 3rd championship of the fall season and the 7th for the year. Amazed me. Can you say consistent, some liked it and some did not, can you say judges. Same dog.

In my short tenure of 4 years on the 1 hour circuit, I have had 5 AA championships withheld, 2 of those were reduced to shooting dog and the other 3 were just with held. The last one was the NGSPA nationals this past March in Arkansas. It really leaves a bad taste in your mouth IMHO. In speaking to people who attended this sharptail, way too much politics of who was handling which dog and who was the wanted winner, is what I was told. Maybe that would qualify me to have an opinion in this matter.

I feel that in the allage stake, if the dog on course toooo much, you are in trouble. Not the fact that the dog was not scouted, overly handled and "did" handle, and found birds and was exciting to watch and went to all the right places, broke to death with style, the dog is just seen too much "hunting".

I do not attend pointer/setter trials, just not where I am, but I do know for a fact that the handlers in pointer/setter trials do not loose dogs like they did in the past, that just does not make any money. Anyway, that is what the Tracy handlers told me.

My dog and my trainer will not be back there until some changes are made he told me.

Nothing neagative and no names included here on purpose.

Pepper

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:24 pm

Thanks for the reply Jerry. Apparently we have heard about the same.

And just for the record your trainer is Rich correct and by the sounds of it "mift" might have been putting it mildly? Sorry man you don't have to answer that, don't want to drag you into our "locked out" discussion.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:34 pm

kninebirddog wrote:in AKC and Af there is no Prize money it is just for ribbons and points towards a title

When I say AF,,,, I mean American Field,,,, and there's money. Its posted in about every ad in the Field purse split 50/50. So a big Dakota championship say 75 dogs at $300 apiece is $22,500 split 50% is $11,250 in prize money to be split, usually 70/30 to the winner and runner up.

AP,,,,,, what happens to the money???? Thats where the scrutiny comes in. Good question.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:36 pm

kninebirddog wrote:in AKC and Af there is no Prize money it is just for ribbons and points towards a title

At some AKC trials cash prizes are sometimes offered in specific stakes, usually open limited stakes. With held placements in these stakes often create the same type of hard feelings toward a club/judges.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:12 pm

kninebirddog wrote:in AKC and Af there is no Prize money it is just for ribbons and points towards a title

As said above, it's not just ribbons and points toward a title. Some stakes, both AKC and AF, offer prize money for placements.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:02 am

I know of no AF pointer/setter trials where the purse would be retained by the club, if no championship performances are given, instead of being split between the Ch and R-U Ch, it 1-2-3.

But the first thing they do is go to a run-off or second serries.

It is not just GSP championships, a couple of years ago some judges withheld the Brittany Chicken Championship. It was hot and windy, the only bird contact was what they called a stop to flush, but were really nervious sharptail leaving in the the high wind when the dog had done his part. There was a big stink, and I don't believe those judges have been asked back.

I sometimes think many of these judges have never hunted wild birds. You see wild birds do not behave like drop down birds, they don't hunker down and wait to nearly be stepped on. When you hunt wild birds, you learn that conditions can cause the birds and the dogs to behave in strange ways.

I will say again, the judges should not be looking for the perfect dog, but the best dog, the dog that is most likely to improve the breed.

I hope by discussing it here we can change some clubs and judges.

Neil

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:58 am

I agree with comments above about judging a dog based on conditions. As far as the prize money goes...

Guys, you are forgetting this is a GSP Championship...not a Pointer/Setter. As someone mentioned above, you almost never see a pointer/setter championship get withheld...maybe it's because of high entries and big prize money?

What were the entry fees for the Sharptail AA...$150? How many entries...10, 15? We'll say 15...I don't know how many they really had. That comes to $2250. Half of that goes to prize money...that's $1125. We're talking peanuts here compared to a Pointer/Setter Champ. I agree if there was a $22,000 purse you should have placements...but in order to get such a high purse you need a lot more dogs than 10 or 15. And out of all those dogs then you SHOULD have a dog or two to use.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:14 am

I see your point Remmy, but with things as tight as they are economically, why not rename the stake and award the purse? Unless there was no placements to be awarded even under naming it a classic or a SD stake, don't know was not there not making any assumptions.
Another question. Do we have a predetermined standard for an AA or a SD performance? Does the terrain, weather conditions, bird availability not ever come into play? Or is there a notion that if you do not see the dog but find him standing thats an AA race? To me AA is more of a total package than just a scorching race see the dog 4 times with one find name it a Nat. CH. in an hour. Give me that AA dog with multiple finds who does not always have that AA race, but has the AA mentality but just finds to many birds all day long baby. Just my limited observations on the few AA races I have seen, and most of those have been at P/S trials. Just kind of curious about some opinions.

Chip

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:45 pm

Everyone's definition of an AA dog is different...especially the judges. It all depends who is in the saddle that day I guess. I always hear it's about the attitude of the dog. Well, if you have a dog with many finds, shows frequently and doesn't run big how can it have an AA attitude or mentality? Part of my defintion of an AA dog is the ground race and limb finds. If the dog cannot reach those far away objectives because it doesn't run as big or keeps finding birds close than that's not an AA race to me. How can you have an AA race that keeps finding birds within close sight of the gallery? I saw a dog not get placed as a SD for that reason! AA vs SD has been talked about many times and you will always have different opinions. That's my opinion...I'm sure not everyone will agree.

I am not making an argument as far as renaming the stake and having a re-run. I don't know what the situation was because I wasn't there. My only point was the club keeping the awards money. The club doesn't have to have a purse. When there is no purse the club keeps all the money anyway so what is the difference if placements are withheld and the club keeps the $1125? Of course, I would not do that when you have a high purse.

I'm absorbing as much information as I could from this thread because I am running my first Championship this fall and I do not want anyone to go home unhappy!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:58 pm

If the dog cannot reach those far away objectives because it doesn't run as big or keeps finding birds close than that's not an AA race to me

This is the number one reason I have trouble with our trials. A dog is faulted for finding too many birds too close. In whose imagination is that a fault? If the birds are close is it the dogs fault? If he find them is it the dogs fault? When you can't find birds close by then it is nice to have a dog range covering as much ground as possible to find one but I don't want a dog that runs 1/2 a mile to find a bird when there are birds sitting in the area where you would hunt. That has never made any sense to me.

Guess I would vote for a trial to be a competion between dogs and not against a standard. If no birds are found then I can't fault the dogs but if a few dogs do find them then they should be placed. And the only reason we judge a dog for how big it runs is because there are no birds close and the dog that goes looking should win. A lot more importance should be placed on finding birds than on how big a dog runs. I think of trials as a competion between birddogs and not between greyhounds.

Ezzy

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:23 pm

Ezzy, you are so right! How can you penalize a dog because it finds a lot birds. After all, that is their job right? But if the dog cannot show you it's ground application and AA attitude by not being afraid of being out of sight of its handler then, by defintion, it's not AA correct? That's a tough situation when all the birds are close. However, if the dog stays too close then it's running a gundog/shooting dog race, in my opinion. Otherwise, why not just have one stake? Why have AA and SD then? There has to be a difference between the two. And the difference can't just be attitude or mentality.

I guess it's just luck of the draw too. Which course, which day. Dog A runs in bad weather on day 1. Dog B runs in perfect weather on day 2. Whose fault is that? I guess it's just one of those things we have to deal with maybe?

I used to think exactly like you, until I started trialing and every trialer I know changed my perception. It's all about big running dogs now. I never used to like it but now I have no choice in order to compete.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:58 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
If the dog cannot reach those far away objectives because it doesn't run as big or keeps finding birds close than that's not an AA race to me

This is the number one reason I have trouble with our trials. When you can't find birds close by then it is nice to have a dog range covering as much ground as possible to find one but I don't want a dog that runs 1/2 a mile to find a bird when there are birds sitting in the area where you would hunt. That has never made any sense to me.

Ezzy

Ezzy~I think that you answered your own question. These are trials, not hunting. You might be surprised to know that a lot of these "all age" dogs are hunted on foot regularly both on wild birds and at preserves. And are in sight most of the time. Some of them might get a little "big" when there aren't any birds around, but I'd rather have a dog that covers the ground for me in a situation where the birds are out there a ways.(Especially if I'm walking) If that dog can pin birds and be honest out of sight, then that is what it's all about to me. Those are the traits that most of them pass down to their pups, the boldness to work birds, and be honest on their birds, not the big race that they have in trials. The all age dog is kind of a freak of nature. Most of them don't produce the run that they have very often, some more than others. What you get from those dogs besides the big race is why we need the all age dog. JMO

Doug

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:30 pm

remmy wrote:Guys, you are forgetting this is a GSP Championship...not a Pointer/Setter. As someone mentioned above, you almost never see a pointer/setter championship get withheld...maybe it's because of high entries and big prize money

To expand on this idea,,,, one of the reason why you don't see pointer/setter championships withheld is because of the size of the entry. Most I would say on average are over 20 dog stakes this greatly increases your chances of producing a performance that a given judge is looking for right/wrong or indifferent. From what I read and follow along with 6-10 is the range of an NGSPA AA stake and not forgetting the general rule of field trials,,, 80% of the dogs are incapable of winning, Robert Wehle, Wing & Shot). This does not leave a whole lot to choose from after the dust clears. Thus could be the reason for with held placements.

Another difference still expanding on your high entry/purse idea. I find in Setter/Pointer trials that the carrot at the end of the stick is the purse money, if you want to get the pros to come, throw a big purse behind it. This works great and is twofold, it makes for a great entry which means alot of prestige when won and a nice paycheck. Example the Florida AA and the Contental both have over 25k in purse money to be given out. The NGSPA pros are not driven by purse money,,, maybe cause there has never been big enough purses to worry about, maybe they all have to much money in the first place

, but IMO that is not a deciding factor on whether a ngspa pro attends a trial or not. And the result is lower entries and less purse,,, resulting in harder to find a dog to use.

JMO

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:38 pm

I believe it must be hard to attract pros if they think there is a better than even chance that the placements will be withheld and the prize money revert to the club.

There is so much more to an All-Age performance than just pure range; it is class, style, speed, endurance, attitude, intelligence.

If it is a wild bird trial or one on properly anchored pre-released birds, I don't see how a dog can have too many finds. Only in a drop down bird trial can you have too many finds, then you need to teach the bird planter where to put the birds.

On page 13 of the August 30 issue of "American Field" there is a list of the Leading German Breed Championships, the first one, a National Championship - "Placements Withheld", 2 of the other 4 were cancelled. 5 Leading Championships according to "American Field" and only 2 with placements. If you guys are ok with that, fine.

I can tell you Bernnie and the pointer guys have a hard time understanding. Bernie asked me once about a Brittany trial, "How can I publish a report of a trial where there were no placements? Do they get together for a week, run dogs, party, and go home?"

Thought you might want to know.

Neil

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:00 pm

Ezzy~I think that you answered your own question. These are trials, not hunting. You might be surprised to know that a lot of these "all age" dogs are hunted on foot regularly both on wild birds and at preserves. And are in sight most of the time. Some of them might get a little "big" when there aren't any birds around, but I'd rather have a dog that covers the ground for me in a situation where the birds are out there a ways.(Especially if I'm walking) If that dog can pin birds and be honest out of sight, then that is what it's all about to me.

Ricky,

I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I want the dog to find the birds that are nearby first. I can usually head my dogs down a fence row if they haven't already hunted it and I have had a lot more dogs that are hunting dog breeding with little if any trial breeding up close. I find little difference in most as far as range goes if they are allowed to run and range as puppies and not trained when they are six months old. I have two now that are closely bred to some of the great trial AA Brits and they like to range also but are great bird finders for the walking hunter if you don't mind them getting that 1/4 mile away on occasion but the thing is they are bird finders. I do not judge a hunting dog by how far it ranges but rather by how many birds it finds and that sometimes means it has to range. And that is good.

Ezzy

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:26 pm

There have already been a lot of positive comments on this matter, I agree with all of them. There is no such thing as a bird dog with too many finds. It just ain't happening.

Pepper

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:45 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Ezzy~I think that you answered your own question. These are trials, not hunting. You might be surprised to know that a lot of these "all age" dogs are hunted on foot regularly both on wild birds and at preserves. And are in sight most of the time. Some of them might get a little "big" when there aren't any birds around, but I'd rather have a dog that covers the ground for me in a situation where the birds are out there a ways.(Especially if I'm walking) If that dog can pin birds and be honest out of sight, then that is what it's all about to me.
Ricky,

I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I want the dog to find the birds that are nearby first. I can usually head my dogs down a fence row if they haven't already hunted it and I have had a lot more dogs that are hunting dog breeding with little if any trial breeding up close. I find little difference in most as far as range goes if they are allowed to run and range as puppies and not trained when they are six months old. I have two now that are closely bred to some of the great trial AA Brits and they like to range also but are great bird finders for the walking hunter if you don't mind them getting that 1/4 mile away on occasion but the thing is they are bird finders. I do not judge a hunting dog by how far it ranges but rather by how many birds it finds and that sometimes means it has to range. And that is good.

Ezzy

RIGHT ON, EZZY!!!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:16 pm

I think it hurt Fritz in the NAGDC, as he had 9 finds in 45 min. No sooner than he got going, he would be back on point. He just could not show his run for being on birds. So, I think too many birds does hurt them, unfortunatly.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:19 pm

Brenda,

I am sure it hurts them which proves we aren't judging what I want to see in a birddog. I don't need to see run if the dog doesn't have to to find birds. If the dog doesn't find birds then he better be out there searching but if the bracemate is finding them close then he is the winner today. Tomorrow may be different.

Ezzy

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:44 am

To repeat, the only way a dog can have too many finds is in a drop down bird trial and the bird planter put too many birds in the wrong places.

In a wild bird trial or a properly pre-released one, it just cannot happen.

Oh, it does bring me to another reason for some judges withholding placements or putting a 1 find dog up over a 5 find one. Again it is negative judging. If the 5 find dog moves a bit to mark flight on one of the finds the judge throws him out. He can have 4 clean, near perfect finds, but a slight bobble on one, and the negative judge puts a rope on him. A good judge knows that there is a good chance that the 1 find dog might have goofed on his next find. The more finds they have the greater the chance for a slight problem.

Again, they should look for the best dog, not the perfect one - more is more. This type judging is why the hunters cannot understand field trials. Now no good judge just counts finds, even in a wild bird trial, as conditions change. A 1 find performance may be better than a 5 find one, but the deciding factor should never be how steady the one dog was on fewer finds.

If the judge does not really know how to judge an All-Age dog they think they can just measure how far from them the dogs got, and then for a tie breaker which one stood the steadest from first point through the handler grabing the collar. Wing and shot was never to have been considered for style points or a degree of difficulty thing like in gymnastics. You are looking for the best dog, not one that did a parlor trick following the flush. If the dog does not move so much as to interfer with the hunt after the handler goes for the flush, he has done his job.

If you read the rules and Bill Brown's book, the only reason to pick up a dog is if it or the handler interfers with the bracemate. Moving, taking steps, crouching, blinking a back, creeping, etc. are all detractors, but you are looking for the best dog, and that might well be the one with a few flaws. Home Again Mike won the National Championship at Ames after chasing on his last find like a puppy. They put up the best dog, not the perfect one.

This looking for a perfect dog is relatively new, in the old days, some of the dogs at Ames knocked nearly as many birds as they pointed. Some say we have progressed, I say we have taken a shortcut in judging. The old time judges and today hunters are a lot a like, they measure a dog by if the birds found could have been shot. If the dog shows were it real world conditions on wild birds that he would have presented the most birds to the gun with style, speed, class, endurance, intellignece he is the best dog. The dog we want to breed to.

Neil

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:02 am

I was talking with an old time pointer pro just last week about this, and in his mind in a CH stake, the dogs don't get any excuses. What I would consider smaller infractions were reasons for the dog to be on a rope for him.

The GWP's only have one Ch a year, well an Open and Am. Because we are so spread out around the country, the only chance many of us get to see these dogs is at our Nationals. Most of us travel a great distance, and spend a whole lot of money to be there, to watch, compare and see the dogs work. In the past couple of years our judges have been... well, a bit harsh? One step, pick em up. Not working the cover the way they think? Pick em up. The worse is when you turn around and see the judges riding away without a word to you! Thats just plain old rude!

I might understand if there are 100 dogs entered, no one wants to make our judges ride hard for useless attempts, but we average 25 dogs. Judges need to understand that they are there to judge performances, but they also need to realize there are maybe 40 people behind them also wanting to watch those dogs. Most of our handlers are hard working and accomplished amateurs, they may spend thousands of dollars to be there that week, 2 weeks off of work. Unless the dog is so out of it, to be out of it, if you are riding that direction and the dog is in no way of interfering with the other dog, let em run! Don't use em if you don't like em.

I ran a dog who had a find in a very tough area (very narrow entrance to a deep creek crossing), bird flushed over his head behind him, dog took a step or two, Thank you maam..... judge rides off. Now this was about 2 minutes into the stake. Of course I was dissapointed, dog shouldn't had done that. But what the heck? Two minutes into it and the dog is deemed unworthy? I believe that was negative judging. There was no consideration given to the circumstances. Again, don't use him if he gets beat, but there were 43 more minutes to find that out.

When judges accept assignments, they need to think about the dogs they are asked to watch. Not all are big time Pointers with big time Pro's riding behind them who may have 10 more dogs to drop down.

Witholding ribbons is always a tough call, somedays there are no dogs to hand a ribbon to, other days too dang many! All we ask is for you to give us all a good watch!

There, I feel better now.

Fuzz, who is now going to go road the dogs to get ready for our Nationals!

Anaconda Pintler · Post by **Anaconda Pintler** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:55 am

Neil Mace wrote:To repeat, the only way a dog can have too many finds is in a drop down bird trial and the bird planter put too many birds in the wrong places.

In a wild bird trial or a properly pre-released one, it just cannot happen.

Neil

Neil I do not know about the drop down bird trials but I do know alot about wild birds and will have to respectively disagree with you on your opinion. Two weeks ago I was up in the area of the trial working and training dogs with my brother horseback, and we were moving an average of 10-12 coveys of sharptails an hour per brace of dogs. So to say that this can not happen in my opinion is inaccurate. Do the math most of the coveys this time of year contained around ten to fifteen even thirty birds at times that is alot of wild birds for an hour brace. The one point that may be valid that after the first brace maybe a large portion oif the wild birds will be moved out of the course area I do not know I have not attended a horseback trial, I am just a BIRD hunter and by the way these trial reports are I think I will stay just a BIRD hunter and work and train my dogs to my standards and not to the standards of some of these judges that do not seem to be consistent with their judgements. In no way I am trying to single out this trial or judges or even you Neil I just wanted to voice my opinion that many many wild birds can and are moved routinely.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:06 am

ezzy333 wrote:Brenda,

I am sure it hurts them which proves we aren't judging what I want to see in a birddog. I don't need to see run if the dog doesn't have to to find birds. If the dog doesn't find birds then he better be out there searching but if the bracemate is finding them close then he is the winner today. Tomorrow may be different.

Ezzy

EXACTLY!!

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:24 am

Anaconda,
My interpretation of what Neil was saying is that in a wild bird trial you can not fault a dog for finding to many birds, that's not something you can control, versus a planted bird trial, in which I agree. And that's why I think so many of us need to see the dogs performances to form our own opinion and not just always take for granted the placement was for the best dog that day in someone else's eyes, now in saying that we cannot all make it to these trials, so there it is some of us rely on reports from a close friend or a pro we know and trust to give us there opinion of the dogs and the performances.
JMO,
Chip

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:56 am

One thing that we have to remember and take into account is "who is the brains of the outfit",,,, we as the Handlers have to learn to show our dogs and not only show them but sell them to the judges also. Its our job to know what the judges like, certain judges want an AA bird finding dog, some want a renegade with one find. If you want to show a renegade with one find, put some distants between you and the judge, ride hard side to side making that dog turn, dispatch your scout with a sound of urgency, make it sound (sell it) like he is way in there and just about if not out of control.

Being the brains of the outfit also carries the responsiblity to know when you need a bird and knowing when you don't. I have seen dogs that have had to much birdwork,,,, and it was the handlers fault for keeping them down where the birds are. All courses seem to have bird cover and not so much bird cover. Soon as you get your finds,,,, get the dog out of the cover and show there run, start hitting them with your drive call (blowing them out) and take there mind off bird hunting and show there race. But to sit back and watch your dog "windshield" up the course and have find after find in an AA stake is more handler error than anything IMO. To me that is why it is so important to have a drive call, whether it be a whistle or something you say, but being able to take the dogs mind off bird hunting and drive him into the country to make him show is so important. And remember we are talking AA,,, race is paramount. Once again Showmanship.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:48 pm

You make it sound like a circus performance and not judging which dog is the best bird dog but I am sure you are right. I think we need to teach the average hunter what trialing really is and not a contest of good birddogs. As it is now trialing is a real turn off for many hunters who think those big running dogs are the ruination of decent hunting dogs. We need to teach them it is all just a way to show the dogs to a judge and not really what the dog would do naturally. Or maybe we need to ajust our standards of what a trial is really about by getting judges who judge birddogs and not just how much runthey show.

JMO

Ezzy

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Or maybe we need to ajust our standards of what a trial is really about by getting judges who judge birddogs and not just how much runthey show.

Ezzy,,,I understand what you are saying, and by the sounds of it you question the usefulness of a horseback AA dog. This could be the reason for 100 dog Gunddogs stakes and 6 dog AA stakes. Luckily there is something out there for everybody and everydog.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:02 pm

I'm pretty sure that I saw ads in The Field that explicitly stated that prize money from withheld stakes would go to the club. What I'm not sure of is if it was referring to money from entries or added money. I'll try to look this evening and post back.

I wholly concur that the club retaining money from entries for placements withheld raises the spectre of conflict of interest. IMHO, it would be wise of managers to avoid the situation.

I haven't thought through the idea of added money being withheld with placements. On the face of it, it would seem to suffer from the same COI issues as money from entries.

Greg J.

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:04 pm

:roll:

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:33 pm

What is the big deal if the club keeps the money when places are withheld? You people are making it sound like the person running the trial is pocketing the money. The money goes into the club account which is used to pay judges, wrangler, food and other expenses for their next trial. The club doesn't even have to have a purse. If the club does not have a purse then where do you think that money goes?....that's right the club. All entry fees go to the club in the first place. It is there money.

Where do you think these clubs get the money to host trials anyway?

kbshorthairs · Post by **kbshorthairs** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:17 pm

Anyone that has participated in putting on a trial knows that they aren't in it for the enormous profit to be made. They do it because they love dogs and enjoy hours of work with little or no thanks. There always seems to be several monday morning quarterbacks that are free with criticism, but short on willingness to volunteer their time and effort to help.
The purpose of a "trial", especially a Championship is to award a champion-like performance. Witholding placements only occurs when judges deem that the performance wasn't up to standard. This isn't the "everybody gets a ribbon for coming" kind of competition and that is what will continue to insure QUALITY. If a dog wins the HOUR, you can be sure he put down the performance worthy of the title! When a dog repeatedly wins hour championships, that is truly an exceptional athlete.
IMO, it is also the athlete that I want a puppy from!

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:30 pm

Well said kb.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:54 pm

If a dog wins the HOUR, you can be sure he put down the performance worthy of the title!

Yah, that's a good one!! You haven't seen enough if you believe that across the board!!

When a dog repeatedly wins hour championships, that is truly an exceptional athlete.

Still not an absolute but is a better indicator of a dog's abilities -especially if the wins are awarded at different venues under different judges.

The purpose of a "trial", especially a Championship is to award a champion-like performance.

So you're saying they just need to perform to a standard. Like a hunt test. I've been in trials where they could've handed out 4 or 5 championships to dogs with awesome performances...but they don't...because it's a competition of dog v. dog where ideally the best performing dog(s) of the day win. Some days their performances are great, some days they are not - but there is always a winner.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:02 am

Great statement Favor!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:28 am

Favor wrote:

but they don't...because it's a competition of dog v. dog where ideally the best performing dog(s) of the day win. Some days their performances are great, some days they are not - but there is always a winner.

No it's not Doug; it's dog vs dog vs standard. It is a trial, not a contest. In a contest, the "best of the worse" wins by default.

FWIW,
Dave

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:01 am

Best of the worst is still the best!! That's what we're trying to determine right.

So Dave, you'd be fine with naming multiple champions at a "trial" as long as they perform to the standard? Sound good to me - order up a bunch of orange ribbons fellars!!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:51 pm

DGFavor wrote: So Dave, you'd be fine with naming multiple champions at a "trial" as long as they perform to the standard? Sound good to me - order up a bunch of orange ribbons fellars!!

Huh?

I'm the guy defending withholding placements, remember? We're struggling to find one or two dogs worthy of a placement!

This is a trial, not a race. We award placements to the dogs THAT BEST REPRESENT THE STANDARD. If the best dog's performance doesn't meet the standard, then we all go home with egg on our faces. This is what separates us from NSTRA and all of the other find, flush and shoot events.

The funny thing about all of this is while both hunt tests and field trials are judged are supposed to be judged against a standard, when a hunt test dog fails his owner admits defeat and more on. When a trial dog fails, his owner moans and groans about placements being withheld. Placements are supposed to be earned, not demanded.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:22 pm

Huh?

I'm the guy defending withholding placements, remember? We're struggling to find one or two dogs worthy of a placement!

Was just being sarcastic regarding your position that it's dog v standard - that's a hunt test IMO.

Placements are supposed to be earned, not demanded.

Absolutely agree 100%. IMO, they're earned by outperforming the other dogs in the stake not by fulfilling a checkbox of requirements listed in a book somewhere.

We can debate this till the end of time but the reality is frequently neither the dogs that perform to the perceived standard nor the dogs outperforming the others get the placements anyway!! Stew on that one.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:43 pm

Absolutely agree 100%. IMO, they're earned by outperforming the other dogs in the stake not by fulfilling a checkbox of requirements listed in a book somewhere.

So you ok with putting an AA performance up in a gundog stake? If not, why not?

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:15 am

Dave,

First they can hold a second series, then they can withhold the championship title and name the dogs 1-2-3.

I am not for rewarding sub-standard performances, but when you run a bunch of dogs one was the best for the conditions and should be recognized. Takes a certain arogance for a judge to say none of those dogs were worth a placement, they are saying they know so much about dogs that they can tell none would have done better in better conditions. And if you are not going to consider the conditions, we don't need judges, we can go to a point system. I always wonder what their personal dogs are really like.

I think there is lot more going on here than just Shooting Dogs in A-A stakes, a lot more.

Neil

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:44 am

So you ok with putting an AA performance up in a gundog stake? If not, why not?

Yah sure if it's the only dog with finds/clean work/etc. Can always withhold the championship part of the deal or withhold the points if it's an AKC deal but I like to name a winner.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:56 pm

Knowing the many flaws in the Brittany world as I do, I am relunctant to hold them out as an example. But one thing that seems obvious, we don't often withhold placements and we are running a lot more All-Age dogs in our Championships, 75 at the Chicken, and 50 something at the Pheasant. Perhaps the two are connected and we are doing some things right.

I am with Doug, if I ride a championship, as handler, judge, scout, reporter or just spectator, I like to see a winner named. I can never recall the placements being withheld at an AF pointer trials, they will revert to 1-2-3, with no Champion, which does make some sense I guess.

Neil

kbshorthairs · Post by **kbshorthairs** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:26 pm

I am wondering........if they withold the championship but name a 1 2 3........isn't that the same thing as witholding placements? I am not trying to be sarcastic, but am wondering what the difference is. Another poster suggested not giving the AKC points, but naming a winner. I am confused about all of this. It is frustrating to spend all the time and money and effort on these dogs and not win, but that is what makes it special when we do win.
I'd hate for this to turn into something similar to the baseball homerun record where dogs names are recorded with an asterisk.
They won, but they really didn't win. My head is starting to hurt.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:42 pm

I am wondering........if they withold the championship but name a 1 2 3........isn't that the same thing as witholding placements?

I don't call that witholding a placement but rather just witholding a title. I too have a problem witholding a placement because of a standard that is only someone's judgement and not anything that can be measured. Plus none of us know what the conditions were for a dog on a given day. What we think of as a subpar performance by the dogs indicate to me their must be a reason the dogs are struggling on that day.

Ezzy