Professional handlers at trials

[jurso]

We have been bitten by the field trial bug, but find that it is quite hard competing with the Pros in the open events...
It seems like the pros are doing trials for a living, based on the huge haulers and gear, and dogs/horses they show up with..
Am I right? Are these "pros" as the competitors call them, actually making a living running dogs in trials that give ribbons to the top finishers???
If so, how does one go about that?? Do they know a wealthy owner that "pays" the handler to travel around the trials?? Is that it?
Like I said, based on the equipment these pros have, it seems to be a lucrative way to make a living.. Besides fun beating everyone else most all the time..
It's kind of intimidating asking the pros any questions, but from what we have heard, they actually do pay the bills by running dogs in trials...
Is it really true???

THANKS FOR ANY INFO OUT THERE.

Joe

[Kiki's Mom]

:joker:
Yes...the bills get paid. But is it lucrative? I guess it depends on your definition of lucrative :roll: :roll: I don't know of any pros out there that have second homes in the Bahamas, luxury homes, or a collection of fancy "Man Toys" ( jet skis, classic cars, jet boats, airplanes etc...) to brag about to show for all their hard work either. Most have lovely kennels, modest homes, and their trucks, trailers and horses and that is about it. What you see is what you get with a pr dog trainer/handler.

It is hard work, requiring an 24/7/365 dedication and love of the dogs as well as the sport.

DON'T be intimidated though, a pro is a person just like you. He has good days and he has bad days and ultimately it is up to the dogs to make it or break it anyway.
Ask all the questions you like, pros don't bite.

[jurso]

Thanks for the update on the pros!!! Will get up the nerve to talk to one this year for sure...Just that since I found out they do it for a living, i definitley dont want to intrude on someone's job, when im there not knowing what is going on half the time.. Even when im running my own brace.

Still, I dont understand "how" they are paid... I see that American Field trials have acutal purses for the top finishers, but even at that, it seems like a pittance relative to someone's actual living expenses..To say nothing of having one's own horses, and mutltiple dogs, vet, feeding bills etc.
The AKC trials Ive entered thus far, have been all ribbons to the top 4 in each stake...
Do the various clubs running the trials pay them "show" money?? I have heard that, but dont know what is true..

Thanks again!!

[Elroy's Bandit]

The "pros" will run dogs for city folk like me that can't be at the events. They also spend lots of time with training, like when is below zero weather here, he takes my dogs to warmer climates to continue training. Naturally I pay for these great services. Most of the people you are talking about have kennels, run training facilities and hunt clubs. They spend unbeliveable hours doing all of them. I see what they do and it really isn't about the money, if it was, there would not be many pro's. These handlers really...really love what they are doing and enjoy being with the dogs. I have been given tips and help by many pro's. It is an amazing culture as none (most) of these guys are not about negatives or kicking another handlers butt........... it's all about the dogs.
They share tons of info & ideas with each other , as well as horses, saddle parts , and just about anything that breaks or they run out of during a trial.
I have often said ...if the politicians in this country would take in a few Field trials they might see what real comraderie and teamwork is!!
I would be surprised if you came across one that wouldn't answer any questions you had.
Bill L.

[R-Heaton]

Jurso,,,, yea there are alot of pro dog trainers and yes the make a living. But I think what you are really getting at is how they get paid. Most pro's charge a by the month fee,,, say anywhere from $450 to $800 +/-. When a pro shows up at a trial the owner of the dog is paying the entry fee not the pro. With todays gas prices most have gone to a travelling fee of some sort plus expenses. Its a business so like any business they try to get there clients or customers to pay for everything and "then some" and the "then some" is profit. Like any good business relationship both parties need to be happy,,,, the customer hopefully is getting his dog trained/trialed and the pro is getting a monthly check and hopefully with some profit,,,, always have to remember its important that a pro is making money, it makes it a win/win relationship. As far as you mentioning there fancy rigs and how might they pay for them well thats there personal business,,, but remember alot of pros spend alot and I mean alot of time on the road so being comfortable is very important not to mention being broke down on the side of the highway is money down the drain. Their "outfit" becomes there travelling kennel/office/home so that is a good way to spend some money.
As far as being intimidated by a pro,, I wouldn't worry about that. I have found most are very helpful, and like any business open to the public they would rather you talk to them rather than there competitors. After all thats how they stay in business.

[jurso]

Thanks all!! Now I get it.. Each one is an independent business person.. Now when I show up in my 15 year old Civic, and a Vizsla in the back seat, I wont feel so outa place...Here im thinking these guys are gettin paid by the hour, and i show up like a non-union worker to compete against em.. Duh.. i feel like a heel.
Next trial, im gonna saddle right up to one of the pros and introduce myself..
Still, it must be an interesting life, travelling and working dogs..

Thanks again for all the excellent info!!

[The Zephyr]

Jurso,

An old-timer told me one of the scariest things for a pros or regulars on the trial circuit is when some guy they don't know pulls up in a broken down pickup truck (or car) with his dog sitting next to him on the front seat. You can never tell what's going to happen. Sometimes that one guy and his dog will clean up and say "thank you very much".

John L.

[Brittguy]

Entry fees are paid by the owner, pro's charge monthly training fee and at least in my breed they also charge handling fee. Keep any cash purses.There is a variation among different pros . I know of some that take part of stud fee when he is in the string.Some charge expenses for long trips in addition to handling fee. I have known some pros that had generous customers and they received very nice gifts and bonuses . I also have had two of them tell me that some of their best customers were the slowest paying and they had a cash flow problem because of this. One was a very close friend and he told me he had a customer that had several dogs with him. While he could easily afford it he was just slow to pay. My friend did not want to upset this client so he would wait then get a check in the thousands.

[jurso]

Very enlightening posts guys.. Thanks!

One day, I may be able to garner enough attention to be offered compensation to keep and run another's dog... Gotta start somewhere i reckon..

Thanks for the excellent tips...!!

[Neil Mace]

As said it varies by breed and venue, what you were given was mostly for AKC.

On the major American Field All-Age and Shooting Dog circuit, most pros charge expenses and keep the purse, a few charge a monthly fee during the season, almost all charge a fee for going North (or South in the winter). It can get to be a pretty big busines, some years John Rex Gates had two dogs, 30 horses, 15 - 20 people in his Canada sumer camp. Many will have income of $250,000+, too many have expenses greater than that. So they train, or trade horses, have wives that work, or have other jobs. None are weathy.

Only a few are making much more than a living, it is a hard life, lots of travel, lots of bills, and varying weather (heat, cold, rain, snow, wind) and they have to rely on the performance of a dog. It is not unlike trying to be a professional LIttle League coach. Their future is tied up in a dog, and while wonderful creatures, they are dogs, and subject to strange, uncotrolable behavior.

And the owners can be a pain, from those that think they know more than the pro to those that demand a dog that can't win be campaigned. In AKC it will cost 6 to 12 thousand per dog per year, in American Field 2 to 3 times that. There are folks that have spent a million dollars trying to win the National Championship at Ames.

Neil

[MTO4Life]

uncotrolable behavior.

In AKC it will cost 6 to 12 thousand per dog per year, in American Field 2 to 3 times that. There are folks that have spent a million dollars trying to win the National Championship at Ames.

Neil

Why would it cost more with AF vs AKC? Just curious. I've never done AF (yet ) so I'm not terribly familiar with it.

[Neil Mace]

Entry fees in American Field pointer and setter trials are much higher, championships run upwards from $300 to a $1,000. It is the major league, even hot dogs and beer cost more. Derby dogs sell for $30,000, adult dogs for $100,000.

Neil

[Elroy's Bandit]

$100,000 ?? Neil, Where have I been? Where is that kind of exchange taking place, just asking.
As far as the fees for events. I have run both AKC & AF, while the entry is more for the AF, it averages about double, but travel & handling remains a constant. Many of my AKC entries are in the $50-70 while the AF is $140-150.
I am no expert, just what I have seen.
Bill L.

[Dave Quindt]

Entry fees in American Field pointer and setter trials are much higher, championships run upwards from $300 to a $1,000. It is the major league, even hot dogs and beer cost more. Derby dogs sell for $30,000, adult dogs for $100,000.

Neil

Neil, how many dogs during a calendar year do you think are sold between that $30k and $100k price range?

Just curious as to your estimate,
Dave

[Neil Mace]

Bill,

What you have seen sounds like shorthair AF trials, tried to be clear I was talking about the major circuit pointer trials. If you will look at the purses you will see, there are 4 or 5 that pay $25,000+ and a good number in the $15,000+ range.

Dave,

Not many dogs at that level, period, fewer are sold, but 4 of the 5 derbies that sold at the Derby Invitational were in the $30,000+ range. There have been some offers for the top adult dogs at $100,000+. Word is that a young dog is worth $10,000 per championship won, $5,000 for R/U, $20,000 base for making it to the Invitational. It would be a different thread, but this big money has brought some real problems; false registrations, overaged dogs, scouting abuses, poor sportsmanship, etc.

Like with race horses a good bit of it is hype, hoping to raise the market, but the top pointers and their handlers are in a different pay grade, and that was my point.

Neil

[Kiki's Mom]

Neil, the picture you paint is not quite the Average Joe's FT experience with a pro. You are stating statistics from the American Field Pointer world which is a wealthy man's game to begin with. For the Average AKC FT pro the costs, though they can be steep don't reach anywhere near the figures you have posted.

Most AKC pros have a monthly fee of $350-600/mo. He pre-pays the entries for his string BUT CHARGES the client the entry fees as a reimbursement expense. There may or may not be an attached handling fee of anywhere from $50 per trial to a higher fee for Championships ( which can be = to or sometimes a tad higher then the entry fee for that Championship) Some handlers now charge a travel or fuel surcharge. Some charge for training birds, administering monthly flea and tick meds and some do not.

On average, in a regional AKC FT season the total cost for the season based on $350/mo and a round number of let's say 10 trials in a 3 month period would look like this:

Monthly Training $350 x 3 =$1050
Entry Fees @ average of $45 per stake ( assuming the dog is NOT being cross entered in any other stakes) x 10= $450
Fuel/Travel @ let's just say $25 per trial x 10 = $250
TOTAL BASELINE COST for that season = $1750

Do that 2 x in the year ( Spring and Fall runs) if you are campaigning a good one and you have a baseline yearly of $3500.


One can of course up that total by adjusting the monthly training fee, adding any additional months as needed for Summer camp and tune up time. Adding any handling fees, extra stakes/championship entries, training birds, and travel expenses for those that prefer to motel it vs hauling a rig and of course adding any incidentals such as grooming, flea and tick meds etc.....

I think that the previously quoted $6000 a year is the high side of things for the AKC FT game.

[Dave Quindt]

Based on my pro's rates, and the conversations I've had with guys using other pros, the cost of putting an broke dog on the AKC/AF GSP circuit starts at about $7,500. This covers training (including summer & winter camp), campaigning, travel expense, handling fees and entries for open stakes in both weekend trials and championships. This is based on a 10 month season, and assumes the pro hits every major trial that's reasonable in travel and scheduling.

In addition you have the owner's expenses; getting the dog to and from the pro, vet expenses, amateur stake entries, travel to & from trials, etc, etc.

JMO,
Dave

[Kiki's Mom]

One can of course up that total by adjusting the monthly training fee, adding any additional months as needed for Summer camp and tune up time. Adding any handling fees, extra stakes/championship entries, training birds, and travel expenses for those that prefer to motel it vs hauling a rig and of course adding any incidentals such as grooming, flea and tick meds etc.....

Based on my pro's rates, and the conversations I've had with guys using other pros, the cost of putting an broke dog on the AKC/AF GSP circuit starts at about $7,500.

Which fits exactly with what I was trying to say.

[jurso]

Ok, so how does one break into this pro handling deal??? Do the pros ever hire helpers? Is it usually a family affair?
If I, as an amateur win a few gun dog stakes with my one dog, do the owners notice, and offer a dog of their own for me to train and campaign?
It sounds like a secret society that we only see the edges of when we see the pros at the trials.
With the competition as it is, I cant see these guys revealing many secrets if they're handling multi-thousand dollar dogs..

[Blue Dawn Kennel]

Jurso~

I just ran onto this thread and figured I'd comment seeings how my husband & I are pro trainers. We charge a flat $400 a month then we are reimbursed the entry fee's for what stakes the dogs are ran in @ trials plus we get a traveling fee (pays for fuel, food,hay, lodging ect... oh and that is split between all the owners/clients so isn't a big expense) plus all vet bills and other stuff done w/ your dog is also reimbursed. We pretty much train trial dogs/ hunting dogs as Kiki said "24/7/365 days a year. There are always dogs in our kennels and dogs to be worked and cleaned up after. We live in a 3 bdr. 2 bath modular home, we have a 07 3500 Dodge Ram pickup w/flatbed and a 30 ft. on the floor 4 Star aluminum trailer that carries a 11 ft (on the floor) living quarters for us, a dog area that holds 27 dog kennels (& more if we put in veri kennels) that is 9 ft. then in the back we have a straight box that is 10 ft on the floor and holds 5 head of horses. This gets us by for our dogs/horses to be comfortable and get to where we need to be going safe and happy. We ourselves do have another job on top of this one that we never had up until about 9 yrs. ago. We also run/manage a 3000 acre cattle ranch in the Flint Hills of KS, our house sets on a chunk of this property and we also have our training grounds on a couple pieces of this property as well. It all works out pretty nicely.

Don't be shy just as you said "saddle up to a pro and introduce yourself". You'll find out as someone else said "we're just like anyother person we have our good days and our bad days". We have about 13-16 clients and they all work hard @ their jobs to pay for their habits of these dogs and having them with a pro trainer on the curcuit. Some work 2-4 jobs just to pay to let their dog(s) have this experience. As for cash purses, with us and almost all the trials we compete in there really isn't many that still give out money, but if the stake happens to be a money stake we keep the money and the owner gets the trophy and the ribbon. (Almost all pro's keep the cash purse if given).

Anyway that's our story, we're just hard working people trying to make a living like everyone else and still have fun with the dogs and the winning.

Robbi

[Brittguy]

Subscribe to The American Field , sometimes trainers and plantations advertise for help.Some trainers look for help when getting ready to go to summer camp.

If I, as an amateur win a few gun dog stakes with my one dog, do the owners notice, and offer a dog of their own for me to train and campaign

That is one way to start but it will take a lot more than a few wins in gun dog stakes with one dog. You would have to be around awhile , win consistently and do it with more than one dog.It takes a lot of learning. Remember you will be getting a lot of dogs that have problems that the owners can't correct and field trial handling takes a lot more knowledge and skill than what appears to the casual observer

[jurso]

Thanks for the tips!!! : ) Im subscribing to AF tomorrow for sure!!