Puppy / Derby

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:00 pm

How many people out there continue to run in these stakes after they have achieved thier points? I cant believe the number of people I see that do this, Dont get me wrong its thier choice but what good is it. I was in the same boat a few years back as I had a # 4 puppy derby dog in the country when the final tallies were in and won almost all that I entered and what did that get me but a dog that was tough as heck to break because I was caught up in winning and didnt think down the road. I told myself never again as soon as I get the puppy derby points I move on and save a heck of allot of money also. Am I missing something here because either these people are loaded with money or there is a big prize at the end of the year now that I didnt know about. Just curious as I thought I learned my lesson but obviously thier is allot more people out thier thinking the other way.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:09 pm

I see it all the time and the reason is puppy/derby dog rankings, as well as some people who just don't know better. I just won the derby yesterday with my pup at a weim trial (only 1 point win). He has his puppy and derby pts now and is done at 13 months old. I don't care about the extra point. I will only run him in the NGSPA Pheasant and/or Reg 3 derby classics in Nov but that is it until he is broke.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:10 pm

I continue to run in Derby after I get the points, but I use it as training and try to keep them steady.

For many it is the same as only running a titled dog in Limited stakes. I think the best dog needs to win to get the points.

There is no rule that says you have to let them rip out birds as a Derby, I will often pick one up if he does not at least let me flush his birds for him and I can't stop him after a few hops. As for the other dog taking his birds out in front of him, he has to learn that, too.

But then my dogs are 3 or 4 before they are field trial steady, and that includes those that have never ran in a Derby stake.

Neil

tenbearsviz · Post by **tenbearsviz** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:38 am

I continue to run my dogs with juvi points. Had I stopped when they were "pointed out" they would have been very young. My current pup earned her OD and AWD points just before her first birthday.

Top Ten points are a bonus but my reason is to continue to run them for the experiance of the competition. The sensitizing/desensitizing of actual trial ground time is priceless. Ground time, ground time ground time.

I have gone on to break and finish both dogs that I ran. One was 2nd in Top Ten (finished his FC in two seasons) and the other was up to #4 (Finished as a DC in two field seasons). I was careful to watch them for catching birds. I was able to call them off flyers and was careful to avoid wet conditions. I have a one year old with juvi points that will be back out in the fall. She'll be watched carefully and pulled if and when she is not advancing.

I got a lot of crap when running dogs in Open stakes with points. It doesn't let other puppies win.... You know.. Those 2nd and 3rd place dogs need a chance too.. SARCISM FOLKS.. Bring your best dog. Those that gave me grief are now doing the same thing!!

I run my finished dogs in Limited Stakes too. That is where they earned their titles.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:00 am

I have always run the dogs in Puppy and Derby just long enough to get their points and then quit. Too many things can happen in the juvenile stakes, running with other young unbroke dogs. Dogs will finish or not, and be great or not, based on what they do as an adult broke dog. We focus on that. If a young dog has not had alot of trial experience and we think it needs it, then we may run it a little longer in Derby stakes, but not for very long. Gotta give someone else a chance too.

easydrifter · Post by **easydrifter** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:02 pm

tenbearsviz nails it.

Had I stopped when they were "pointed out" they would have been very young.

Yes, it's not fair to a great dog to sit on the chain for 6 months to a year until they get gun dog broke. Until you start breaking, run 'em!

Top Ten points are a bonus but my reason is to continue to run them for the experiance of the competition. The sensitizing/desensitizing of actual trial ground time is priceless. Ground time, ground time ground time.

Right on. This is the number one reason to keep running. Nothing beats experience (and good genetics).

I got a lot of crap when running dogs in Open stakes with points. It doesn't let other puppies win.... You know.. Those 2nd and 3rd place dogs need a chance too.. SARCISM FOLKS.. Bring your best dog.

Exactly. It's a competition. It should be hard to earn points for a Champion title.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:34 pm

I was told from my beginning 20+ years ago, "if you need the puppy derby points to finish the fc or afc, you may never get it.

We actually run few derbies and hardly ever a puppy, more about getting a handle and them going forward with you and that will work down the road to win the big ones.

Pepper

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:44 pm

I like to run 'em in derby to get a win so you qualify for championships down the road. After that I usually pull 'em till they're broke. Just too many probs can arrize if they run with unbroke dogs or chase or eat wet birds, etc. IMO

Like Jerry says, concentrate on winning the big ones down the road.

Doug

Tejas · Post by **Tejas** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:54 pm

I haven't been in the bird dog games as long as many posters, but from my limited experience I have learned that I will not run a dog in puppy/derby after gaining points or a FC in an open gun dog stake. I also will never run another dog in a Junior Hunter test.

My conclusion is why spend a great deal of time and money getting a dog to a certain level and then throw it into a situation where there is a higher percentage chance of having the training screwed up.

My FC is mostly going to run in hour stakes and Amateur stakes.....maybe an occasional Open Limited Gun Dog to keep her tuned up if necessary.

tenbearsviz · Post by **tenbearsviz** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:15 am

Tejas wrote:My conclusion is why spend a great deal of time and money getting a dog to a certain level and then throw it into a situation where there is a higher percentage chance of having the training screwed up.

snip

Tejas, This is a valid point. You must know your dog and gauge the level of what they will learn vs. the potential damage. The puppy/derby dogs I have run past their points are only being trained to handle not to stand their birds. That comes in a controlled situation. After the points are earned they are run for confidence building, desensitizing of screaming/hacking handlers, getting used to a crowd of horses.... All that stuff that a weekend warrior like me cant do without a field trial situation.

When my dogs are brought out as green broke adults, they handle. They know how to feed off my horse, they know my voice over a screaming pro and can focus on the new rules and obiedience that is required. They already know to be out in front and forward. The rest is second nature.

I am still puzzled by Wagonmaster's comment about

Gotta give someone else a chance too.

We are talking about competition aren't we?

Jerry, you are right.

"if you need the puppy derby points to finish the fc or afc, you may never get it.

but this is different. It isn't that they need to run for the points. They run for the experiance. I cannot duplicate the trial environment in a training session.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:17 am

This a topic that comes back to each individual's desires. There is no right or wrong. I think you will find that there are many people who enjoy the competion and there are those who only run to get a title. Depending where you fit will determine how you will proceed.

Ezzy

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:37 am

Every bird that that pup catches at a trial puts you that much further from winning broke stackes. You just keep on doing that and guys like me will just have to keep on winning! Ezzy you are not a feild trialer why are you commenting on things you know nothing about!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:07 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Every bird that that pup catches at a trial puts you that much further from winning broke stackes. You just keep on doing that and guys like me will just have to keep on winning! Ezzy you are not a feild trialer why are you commenting on things you know nothing about!

Joe

I don't have time to discuss it properly right now as I have to get on the way to this weekend trial we are running in and there are a lot of chores to get done before we leave but you do come up with a lot of comments that you truely do know nothing about. Too bad you feel the necessity to do that.

Ezzy

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:08 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:Every bird that that pup catches at a trial puts you that much further from winning broke stackes. You just keep on doing that and guys like me will just have to keep on winning! Ezzy you are not a feild trialer why are you commenting on things you know nothing about!

+1

Doug

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Sat May 02, 2009 11:01 am

Hunter, you need to think about the end product to understand why derby is so detrimental to a pup. When a pup catches a bird he is learning that he can and that you have no control over him. Even if he doesn’t catch that bird he is also learning that he can do what ever he wants, they put chasing and trialing together and they come up with “when I am at a trial I can chase birds” that may be okay in a derby, but later on it becomes a problem, so don’t let them do it from the beginning and you’ll do just fine.
Another thing to think about is 2/3 of all the dogs that run in both the GSPCA and the NGSPA futurities will not go on to be competitive in broke stakes, that is not all the fault of the dogs, to many owners puppy and derby these dogs to death. Don’t get me wrong we have all been there, you are new to the game and you become ribbon happy, but in the process you have taught that pup a lot of bad habits. The best young dog I have ever seen won over 30 blue ribbons in puppy and derby and not a one in broke stakes, that dog was ruined by all those blue ribbons.
I don’t know of any good pro that will run a young dog after they get their points and I know a number of them that will not run a top prospect at all in a derby.
You most always think in terms of if I do this what am I telling my dog, if all you are interested is puppy derby, fine, but if you want to win broke stakes, well you figure it out.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat May 02, 2009 1:41 pm

How many FC's AFC's out there would not be if you had not run them in puppy/derby....?

Chip

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Sat May 02, 2009 1:48 pm

I agree Joe and like I said I have been that route and spent all that money and it got me nothing in the end. Now as soon as I have those points I go to semi breaking them with better results. But the problem is I see these dogs ran by more Pros than Amt after they have thier points. Whitch tells me two things either thier amt clients dont know any better or the Pros own the dog but just in someone elses name and they are promoting it for themselves. I dont care that anyone does this dont get me wrong I was just curious as to why to see if I was missing something on my end. Also the person who said someone else needs a chance to win is BS have the best dog in the stake and you will win reguardless if the dog has his or her points or not. Some people do things and train differnt I was just curious to see the pros and cons but for me thier are more cons than pros.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Sat May 02, 2009 3:52 pm

Hunter you are right, if a pro is running that derby it's for one of two reasons, either they are trying to find a client for that pup or that is the only venue they can win at. I strongly doubt that you will see Stieger or Rabidou or Gulledge or Burjan or any of the other successfull pros running a derby when they have a choise.
Chip the question should be how many more FC and AFC and Championship winner would there be? I have been involved in 5 or 6 futuritys and have seen a lot of very nice pups that unfortunately are just not there any more. One more thing to think about, what is the presentage of the top 10 puppy derby that go on and win championships or at least become a FC, I happen to already know, but we will let you figure it out.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:08 pm

Chip the question should be how many more FC and AFC and Championship winner would there be? I have been involved in 5 or 6 futuritys and have seen a lot of very nice pups that unfortunately are just not there any more. One more thing to think about, what is the presentage of the top 10 puppy derby that go on and win championships or at least become a FC, I happen to already know, but we will let you figure it out.

Mr. Amatulli, first off I know very well what you have accomplished and what you have been associated with, but maybe I am misunderstanding your question?
My point was this if you take away the puppy / derby points from all the known fc's and Afc's how many would still have there titles? Now are you saying that there are plenty of dogs who have puppy / derby that have just stopped trialing and have not attained there FC's/ AFC's, or can't cut it at the broke dog level?
HMM to answer your last question Joe, whats the percentage of the top 10 puppy/derby that go on to win championships or at least become a FC? Well I do not know that exact percentage Joe, but I'll guess 10 to 20 % thats 2 out of 10 tops. Since I am not in the know, how was my guess?

Chip

Tejas · Post by **Tejas** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:30 pm

Chip,

I wouldn't hazard a guess as to the number of FC/AFC that would be so without puppy/derby points; however, I can account for one. Sunny had no juvenile points. She never ran in a puppy stake, but did run in three or four derby stakes....probably would have won one, but Dennis couldn't produce the bird in time....did after the judges rode away.

She finished her FC at the age of three and a half years....would have been three years if she had both puppy and derby points. I don't have anything against juvenile stakes per se....just consider it prudent to get a dog out of them as soon as it has the points.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sun May 03, 2009 1:18 am

I don't think you can prove this either way.

You can tell me about a dog that was run a ton as Puppy/Derby and never finished to make your point, I think he wouldn't have finished if he had not. Many dogs just don't. I don't think it was the running as a derby the problem but his later training, of lack thereof. You can tell me that since you don't run your dogs much as a Derby and you win a lot to make your point, and I will tell you, you would still win if you did run them.

I put it in the same basket as never shoot an unpointed bird, or never hunt a steady dog with one that is unbroke. To think that whatever a dog is allowed to do a few times will make it untrainable is not my experience.

Dogs are just not that predictable and consistent to make such generalities.

Still think the key is trying to keep them steady and pick them up if they are not. I try to train to the same level as the FDSB pointer Derby, it is a bit harder as mine are aged properly, but I do my best. If I don't get them steady I need a better excuse than they were ran too much as a Derby. Miller's Happy Jack and House's Confidential are two Derbies for last season that prove my point, both were run many, many times as Derbies, both have already won adult stakes, and they will win many more.

So it is not running them as Derbies that seems the problem, but how the AKC guys do it.

I have found that if you generalize about dogs with "Always" and "Never", you are liable to be wrong.

Neil

larue · Post by **larue** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:40 am

My opinon is simple,it depends on the dog you are running.Some dogs need more time running in trials to get them used to the trial experience,while other dogs might need to find more birds in a trial to figure it out.
So with a shy dog who needs to have positive experiences in trials and who needs to find birds during a trial,it might be the very best thing to run that dog in every derby it can get into.
On the other hand it might not be helpfull to run a dog in any derby stakes,if the dog is ripping and catching birds and is as bold as he can be.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Sun May 03, 2009 1:28 pm

Well it sounds like we have another good thread going.
Chip that is exactly what I am saying, too many dogs that are great derbies never go on to become FCs, I have seen this way too many times, and I don’t know of too many dogs that finish with only 10 points, although I am sure that there are some, but maybe that says something also. The fact of the matter you can finish just about any dog that is broke.
Good guess Chip it is less than 20%, now think about that 33% that compete at the futurities go on to finish, but less that 20% of top 10 go on, and the only difference is the number of times that pup is run at a trial.
Neil I am talking about GSPs not pointers, in the pointer world derbies have to be broke and that changes everything and confirms what I am saying “If the dog dose not know to chase and catch birds you will have an easier time braking that dog”. I went to Tracy’s seminar and I realized that their whole program revolves around getting that dog broke, even their breeding program. George told me that he will not breed a dog that wasn’t at least broke, and the braking process starts a weeks old not years old like we do with GSPs. Also if you have a great young prospect why would you take the chance of screwing him up for a derby ribbon?
I don’t believe that a trial is a place to train, but I know many do and I was at one time one of them. That is up to the handler and yes all dogs are different and some do need the exposure. The only thing I will say is that you may have bigger problems with that pup than you want to admit to.
I will also say that if you are happy with puppy derby ribbons, more power to you and be happy, I am assuming that most people want to go on and win at the highest level.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:19 pm

My puppy/derby experiences have been across the scale, top to bottom. My 1st trial dog, Hoosier Buddy would not do anything at a puppy stake, ran him one time and that was it. Work at home and it was wonderful but not in a trial. At 19 months of age, entered him in a 30 dog derby in St. Louis and he won it, that was the end of puppy derby for him.

The currect reasoning is that if we have a nice young one and he is showing it, we run them a bit, the currect young one has ran in 3 derbies, a 4th, a 2nd and a blue ribbon. She is now in the process of being broke.

There are a number of people who use the trial as a training experience and since we cannot do anything about that, we have to go along with the bracemate. It would truly be much better to not run dogs that are ready and to do more training with them and then bring them out.

You win at the front and not chasing the dog and trying to get it to do something it does not want to do.

Jerry

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Mon May 04, 2009 12:57 am

Joe Amatulli wrote:Well it sounds like we have another good thread going.

Neil I am talking about GSPs not pointers, in the pointer world derbies have to be broke and that changes everything and confirms what I am saying “If the dog dose not know to chase and catch birds you will have an easier time braking that dog”. I went to Tracy’s seminar and I realized that their whole program revolves around getting that dog broke, even their breeding program. George told me that he will not breed a dog that wasn’t at least broke, and the braking process starts a weeks old not years old like we do with GSPs.

Joe,

I agree.

I run Brittanys these days.

But I think it more a training technique than a breed thing.

Even though some pointers are over-aged, most dogs, even setters, mature at about the same rate these days. If they can have pointer Derbies broke, so can we.

And that is my point. Rather than not run Derbies, we should try to set a standard of broke or nearly broke Derbies. The rule book may say an AKC Derby should not get extra credit for being steady, but most judges can't help themselves. You have one that will let you at least flush birds for them and you will win with less on the ground, most times.

And my dogs are none too smart, but I have never had one that didn't learn pretty quick he could catch a pen bird, they just have to learn not to do it, even though they know they can.

Something else, off topic; our AKC adult dogs have to be steadier, able to put up with dogs ripping birds out in front of them. Recently I have ridden about 30 big pointer trials, then judged an AKC walking trial. In that one AKC trial I saw more stolen points/fail to honor than in all the pointer trials combined.

When it happens with pointers, it most often happens "over the hill", and you get a divided find or they go on. With our walking dogs, it tends to happen in front of everyone and they get picked up.

Neil

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:34 am

Well Neil that is my point, although I do not believe in running a green broke dogs the pointer people truly have this right, if a pup is not allowed to chase and catch you will find yourself with a much better finished product.
I think that bit in the AKC rule book is ridicules, you are reposes to judge potential and one of the things you should be looking at is, can that pup be finished, and there is no question when the pup is already broke.
Well you are now getting into another pet peeve of mine and that is the lack of good GSP trainers and since that is what got Charley in trouble I will leave it at that.
Chip thanks for the respect, but my name is Joe.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon May 04, 2009 1:03 pm

The AKC rule against "training on the grounds" is a very good reason to stop running young dogs once they get their points. It doesn't take long before they start to figure out that at a trial, they can get away with things that they can't during training. They get trial wise, and then can be very had to keep broke at trials. But I feel the same way about continuing to run dogs in Open Gun Dog stakes once they have finished. Too many of the dogs in those stakes are green broke and their owners are just hoping to get them around. They bust a point, nobody gets punished, and all of a sudden you have a dog that is not broke at trials. I would just as soon get the dog finished and move it on to hour Championships, or at least to the OLGD stakes where the dogs are generally ( not always) a little more reliable, or the AA stakes where the dogs are usually at opposite ends of the course from each other.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Mon May 04, 2009 1:22 pm

That advice comes from the owner of the current and two times NGSPA National Champion. You want to win listen to those that have. It’s not a secret you just have to work at it and think! Nice post John.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:29 pm

Thank you, Mr. Amatulli.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:04 pm

They bust a point, nobody gets punished, and all of a sudden you have a dog that is not broke at trials.

Personally I don't think they're that fragile. They aren't built in a day and pretty hard to destroy 'em in 30 minutes! Compete with 'em in whatever floats your boat and puts a smile on your face at the end of the day!!

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue May 05, 2009 7:13 am

Doug your such a liberal, I will bet you wouldnt take that position if you ran on liberated birds all the time.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 05, 2009 7:25 am

Its like anything else with a dog, some will do fine, with some it is a mistake. There are a couple of guys on this board who had the problem with young dogs getting trial wise. Then you are six months trying to undo it, or maybe never.

Its different between AKC and AF, at least where I live. There just aren't that many AF Derby stakes. Two each season if you don't travel out of state, and not much more even if you do travel. So there is a built in safety. But you can easily run a Puppy or Derby in 8 - 10 AKC weekends each season, spring and fall. And they are all planty bird trials. If you are running em on wild birds you won't do any harm. But most of the Eastern trials you are dealing with birds dieing out on the course, maybe it rains and they are all dead, or the birds are dieing in the bird wagon towards the end of the weekend, dogs bringing birds back, a fair number of beginning trainers who let dogs get away with all kinds of stuff, and too many bumpers and taggers. And, you are not supposed to get on a dog who is deliberately screwing up, even if the judges ride off some show person in the gallery might write you up. Have seen that happen too many times.

Nobody remembers that a dog was #1 Derby Dog of the Year, or cares. Just owners who don't know any better, loving the feeling of racking up Derby points. Better to get em out of those weekend trials as soon as they have their two points and put some polish on em. Take em out to the prairies and let em bust and chase birds they can't catch. Those are birds that will teach them to point. Those planty bird, dead bird trials aren't a great place to raise an honest bird dog.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue May 05, 2009 7:58 am

Wagonmaster wrote:Its different between AKC and AF,

What do you perceive the difference is, other than the dog may be up to four months older ?

Wagonmaster wrote:Nobody remembers that a dog was #1 Derby Dog of the Year, or cares. Just owners who don't know any better, loving the feeling of racking up Derby points. Better to get em out of those weekend trials as soon as they have their two points and put some polish on em. Take em out to the prairies and let em bust and chase birds they can't catch. Those are birds that will teach them to point. Those planty bird, dead bird trials aren't a great place to raise an honest bird dog.

Now thats a quote i can agree with

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:28 am

Doug I hope you have a bit of a better understanding of what trialing is like outside of Idaho. In a perfect world we would all have the grounds and birds that you have, but unfortunately we don’t so we have to try and create situations that can be used.
Myerstenn in AKC trials they very often put out a large number of birds as a matter of fact I believe the AKC tells you that you must put out a min. of 2 birds per brace because the dogs most have bird contact to be used. In the AF derbies do not have to have bird contact so there are not as many birds on course for the pup to get into trouble with. Also the caliber of pups that you are competing against is usually higher and you tend not to get the bumps and taggers that you often see at AKC trials.
One more thing that I would like to add, if you are into the top 10 fine have fun! If you are happy shooting a few birds that is fine also, if you are looking to win championships great, but don’t be looking down on people that are playing a game that is different that yours or have a pointer rather than a wiem, because you know what it is only different not better, enjoy yourself.
John Mr. Amatulli is feeling very old and needs a nap again.

larue · Post by **larue** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:58 am

doug,glad you joined in topic,I could not agree more with you.
There are so many varaibles invovled in running a derby or not,who is anyone to tell someone else to run or not?
Not all of us have our dogs with pro's or have them campaigned or trialed with pro's,and some of us are just rank beginner's
trying the trial game out.Or we could be just plain having fun,or believe it or not we as owners believe that it is in our dogs best interest to continue to run derby trials,for whatever reason.
It goes the same for every owner,or pro if you think that a bad derby bracemate will screw up your pup,dont run him.
If you have such a nice pup why even run it in derby if you are worried about what the bracemate will do?
I wish it was as easy as you guys make it up to be,just go run your derby dog on the praires,lets take a real look at that.
I am lucky,I only live 10 to 14 hours away from most of north or south dakota but here is what I must do to get any real work done on wild birds.
Take at least 5 days to make it worth while,so I use 3 or more days of a vacation.If I am not going to hook up with a pro,a weeks vacation at least.Drive out west,find the birds.It will no doubt be hot,so training early for 5 days,and add a couple more runs for good weather say 8 times in a week the derby will get on the ground.
Now I dont know how much vacation time you guys get ,but it is 3 weeks for me.So I will use 1/3 of my vacation time to put a derby dog into some birds out west.And this is not even taking into account the pups age,or the wild bird numbers of a given year.
I would rather use the time to go hunting myself.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:29 am

I went to the Brandywine Bird Dog Club trial this weekend down in Unionville, PA. I run Brittanys, as do the people I went with, but our trainer is an AF guy who has been "educating" us about the ways of the Field for a couple years. The derbys run by the pros were broke, broke, broke. If they made a mistake, an ecollar was on them in a heartbeat and they were set up and corrected. I've never seen an ecollar get on a dog so fast in my life!! There was no busting and chasing and people who had derbys in at Freeland's AF trial the week before did NOT put them in at Brandywine because of the level of competition there. Some of those derbys also ran in the Open Restricted Shooting Dog stake, so that shows just how broke they really are.

I think the bottom line is SOME dogs get trial smart running AKC derby stakes. SOME dogs are harder to break after chasing and potentially catching birds, and SOME dogs never get broke after that. Why take the chance?

We run a couple puppy stakes, preferrably when they're the first stake of the weekend and no birds are put out, then off to the trainer to be broke.

On a side note, our Brittanys showed really well at Brandywine. No placements, but lots of compliments on how they were bird finding machines. One guy even said "Well that's something new! I spent my brace watching a Brittany instead of my own dog". I have to say, I think I enjoyed the pace and quality of dog at this AF trial much more than at the AKC trials I've attended in the past. I think those AF guys might need to get used to seeing our Brittanys

larue · Post by **larue** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:37 am

only one problem with af derby stakes,how many dogs running are really derby aged?
I ran an af derby stake attached to an af wild bird championship,after my run the judge asked me if I knew I was running against dogs that were 2 years older than mine was,and she was 16 months old.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Tue May 05, 2009 11:34 am

Somebody touched on a pretty good point,,, newcomers to the sport should be encouraged to run there dogs as often as possible and if they happen to have a nice dog racking up ribbons its pretty cool and keeps them interested,, which is good for the sport.

Another difference,,, in AF most derby's don't plant birds to avoid the screw ups,, this is two fold, alot of dogs get put up only on run and desire which is looked down upon but on the other hand they don't go backwards in their training.

John,,, you brought up a good point which kinda of makes Dougs point,,, there is just not that many derby's so would be pretty hard to screw a dog up in the first place,,,, 30 minutes at a time 2x a year.

And the last thing,, IMO most people are going to work there dogs on pen raised birds anyway and not run them on wild birds so might as well do it in a trial. If a mistake happens get your up there and make your correction and go on about your business,,, same as you would in training.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:09 pm

That's AF Derbies Richy. For better or worse, you can run an AKC derby 12 times a year in the AKC trials held by Minnesota breed clubs alone, and if you are willing to travel you can run that dog 20 times. Its not much different in WI or IA, those people run up here for trials anyway.

On top of that, when you run a young pointer in an AF derby, you are at least running against 100% field dogs. In the AKC trials we get some show dogs that don't have a clue, and you run in the same trial with several breeds some of which still need some development. And you run with some clubs that still believe in the Yellow Brick Road, and the judges will not ride off and let you take care of a dog's mistake. Lord love the people that are trying to make the switch from show to field, or are trying to make Weim field dogs, I did the same thing years ago myself with GWP's. But the result is you get alot of variation in the dogs you run with, and bumpers, taggers, and the occasional outright fighter are not unusual.

When Spot was about two I watched Dixon handle him in a local AKC trial. He was braced with a dog that was an obvious bumper/tagger. I won't mention the breed. That dog started out just messing around off the line, he went left and Spot went right along a tree line. When they were about a hundred yards apart that dog looked over and thought Spot was a good target, so he made a run for him. He got within about thirty yards, but then Spot heard him coming, never even looked at him, and just poured on the coal. The other dog never had a chance and was three hundred yards behind before he knew what hit him. I remember thinking to myself maybe I would keep Spot for awhile, he had business on his mind, not messing with another dog. You will see lots of that kind of stuff at every single weekend AKC you will ever go to. The problem is, that front dog eventually makes a find, and then that bumper gets his chance.

In my part of the country, you can't possibly run a dog enough in AF Derbies to create a problem. But you sure can create a problem with an AKC dog.

I am all with you on encouraging beginners to get out and run their dog, learn their lessons. I am just sayin' this is one you learn the hard way.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:13 pm

And the last thing,, IMO most people are going to work there dogs on pen raised birds anyway and not run them on wild birds so might as well do it in a trial. If a mistake happens get your up there and make your correction and go on about your business,,, same as you would in training.

That's the point. Do that in the wrong AKC trial and you get suspended. And it does not take the judges to do it, somebody in the gallery. Its against the rules to train on the grounds. And the punishment is severe for any "harsh correction" that occurs during the trial. Have seen it happen to people more than once.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:25 pm

Doug your such a liberal, I will bet you wouldnt take that position if you ran on liberated birds all the time.

Doug I hope you have a bit of a better understanding of what trialing is like outside of Idaho.

I'm sure you're right Ned & Joe!! I try to be sensitive or cognizant of the fact we all have different resources available for working and enjoying our dogs. I just worry folks take some of the fun out of the game working so hard to get a dog broke then walking around on eggshells thereafter hoping they'll stay there. How many times have you seen a multiple time champion out of the blue take a covey of birds for a ride clear over the horizon?? Then come back the next day and win another championship!!?? I'd bet most that have been doing these games for awhile have seen it a handful of times at least. Trained right, with a good foundation and lots of repetitions under their belt to where "doing it right" is a habit - it's hard to just have 'em untrained in a day.

Personally, like I think Dennis mentioned previously, I take it on an individual basis with my dogs. The ones that are bold, aggressive and no doubt have the right tools if brought along right don't get that many competitions as youngsters. The ones that are a little more clingy, that seem to keep track of the gallery to make sure everyone is coming, I stick 'em in all the stakes I can - the least of my worries with them is catching a bird - heck that might even help 'em get a little spring in their step on game day (I know, I know, some of you guys just get rid of dogs like that but these are my pets man!!

)

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:07 pm

Very well put Doug, Rich and Mr. Lunseth, it depends on the dog, and were you are, and ya we where all new to this game at one point and when you are new that derby ribbon is a big thing so go for it, that is how I learned. I don’t know of too many people that come into this game and start winning championship right off the bat.
Doug a good dog is only broke 90 % of the time that other 10% is what keeps them motivated. There is nothing more boring than looking at an over broke dog! Ya there my pets too.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:26 pm

I know what ya mean John,,, but I was talking about just riding up there and getting a dog put back in place and stroking him up,,,, I understand nothing harsh in a field trial and respect that. I have seen dogs break and chase and the handler just throw his hands up and starts laughing it off,,,,, IMO thats wrong,,, ride up there and atleast get it him stopped and put back,,,,, but thats just me.

Yea running a young pup 20+ times in a derby stake with catchable birds is tough.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:03 pm

Yeah, Spot has cut my throat twice in hour stakes, at 59 minutes and at 59:30. Same place on the same course both times. Ouch!

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:06 pm

These folks are asking you experienced fellas is it worth the puppy/derby of the year run. or should they take their points and move on to longer term development ie , working on the breaking process and developing the dog for broke stakes.I believe i already know your response, but tell them again.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:51 pm

Well, I think we said it already. I said my piece anyway. No, the Puppy or Derby Dog of the Year in the AKC trials is something no one remembers or cares about. Get the points, pull the dog, get it broke and then do something really good with the adult dog. Make it an FC or AFC, get it in hour championships where it has to be limb broke. Broke at a half mile for 15 - 20 minutes. That, people will remember.

AF would be different, but I don't think they have a Derby Dog of the Year, and very few clubs even run a Puppy.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:54 pm

Myerstenn let me put it this way, very few pups that are in the top 10 AKC go on and be competitive, as a matter of fact there have been years that NONE of the top 10 ever see a broke stake.
Read what John wrote and you should understand why, but if that is what you are interested in more power to you! When I have a strong prospect they see 1 or 2 derbies and they are done, if I need to see more from that pup they only see classics.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 05, 2009 4:44 pm

I looked it up. We ran Spot twice in Puppy and he pointed out with a win the second time. We stopped running him in Puppy immediately, just shy of one year of age. We ran him in Derby 3 times and he pointed out at a hair over 16 months, in Aug. of '03. Again, we stopped running him in derbies immediately. We ran him in a couple of broke dog stakes that fall but he wasn't really broke, just green broke. He went to winter camp and came back really broke. He took a third in a Gun Dog stake just shy of two years of age the first time out the next spring, and won his first AKC All Age a month later. During those first three years, he ran on wild birds in ND every summer and wild quail in TX in the winter. Those trips were where he learned to be a dog.

But you have fun. Do what turns your crank. What turns my crank, Doug and Richy's too and most of the rest of the veteran trialers, is a limb broke wild bird dog.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Tue May 05, 2009 5:36 pm

The is nothing that compare with being in the country where Doug's lives and run, see your dog pointed at almost a half mile, ride to him and get off and flush, without a letdown. It just blows me away for that to happen.

To the front, standing way off and ride there. That is what I do it for.

Jerry

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue May 05, 2009 9:11 pm

No don't chase the DOTY..Just my opinion...but heck I don't even own an FC or AFC.....however I do run quite a bit of AF walking stakes here in ILLINOIS and yes they plant birds for the derbies...and they better be "bleep" near broke..I know I know..it's just the way it is, and yea your gonna see some bump and chase. Derbies better move out find a bird or two and show there patience on game, thats just the way it is. My shorthair ended up in 4th place with 2 wins in the fall and spring trial season for the derby dog of the year in points for Illinois against pointers and setters...and that was only running 2 trials as well....due to an injury and a heat cycle. Had we run the full trial circuit would she have done better.....? Who knows but I can tell you this if she's not doing it right....she's up. Play the game whatever it is and be honest with yourself and your dog,,,,you will thank yourself later if you do...and for christs sake have fun....

Chip