Summer Camps

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:30 pm

Anybody ever send thier dog/s to one of those camps out west???

I see a lot of ads with guys advertising summer camps in the Dakotas or western Canada.. Or better yet, does anyone ever just take thier own dog out there in the summer to run on wild birds??
Sounds like it's a yearly thing these guys do, and just run and train dogs out west for the summer... I would love to try that!

WingmanCA · Post by **WingmanCA** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:45 pm

I'm taking 3 four month old pups to KS to do just that. Puppy summer camp. Intro to wild birds.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:45 am

My 2 year old and 3 year old are going to Carson ND again over the 4th of July weekend. Will be there till the championships start in early September. Nothing like it for the dogs.

Pepper

muddycreek · Post by **muddycreek** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:18 am

Wingman-just curious where you are taking your dog for a camp in KS?

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:12 pm

Any opportunities for a poor dog owner to bring his own charge, and maybe help out around the camp to either go for free, or maybe get paid to run dogs on wild birds all summer??? This sounds like the opportunity of a lifetime.. Work on wild birds all summer, then blow them away at the fall trials against the planted "tame" bird competitors...

Boxa · Post by **Boxa** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:04 pm

I want in on that deal!

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 pm

Good Luck Boxa.... I havent heard a thing.. It's like a secret society that goes west in the summer..

Nobody seems to know a thing about it..

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:19 am

I would imagine space is the limiting factor for most of them. Traveling with even two dogs takes alot of stuff, so I am sure 10 + is a stuffer truck and very sweet trailer. Offer to meet them there and help out with cleaning feeding etc. and you might get yourself a deal. BUT I am just looking into it for my own dog. I believe a bit out of my price range at this time.

SO I am curious. Those of you that send your dogs, Besides wild bird experience. do you dogs actually get training or is it more of a fitness and exposure time thing?

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:10 am

I don't know where you are as it isn't in your profile, but there are tons of pros that head to many different places out west. I would say you need to talk to one individually to discuss an opportunity to go out there. Just making a post on this board won't do much good. Look at the post below there are a ton of trainers listed there. Never know one of them might need someone to help out.

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 89&t=18838

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:46 am

I send my dogs each year to ND(actually one dog now), and it's about training on wild birds for one. Since we are anticipating the championships in sept. & oct. it works well combined with intense conditioning on big grounds. I have seen the results with my dog and think my trainer has done/and continues to do an excellent job with him. If I had to choose between the 2 months of local training & 1 month in ND, I would choose ND every time. JMO
Bill L.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:02 am

can you PM me with the name of the trainer you use?

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:18 pm

Not trying to brag but I think I hit the jackpot when we moved last year. I have heard of several of the pros that come up within a fifty mile radius of where I now live. They should be arriving soon and I am anxious to meet them. Hopefully, I will be able to learn a few things and help out. But, the greatest part is, if they are here, I am in a great place to do some training of my own.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:04 pm

You got that Right!

Bill L.

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:14 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:I don't know where you are as it isn't in your profile, but there are tons of pros that head to many different places out west. I would say you need to talk to one individually to discuss an opportunity to go out there. Just making a post on this board won't do much good. Look at the post below there are a ton of trainers listed there. Never know one of them might need someone to help out.

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 89&t=18838

True.. I'm guessing they are getting ready to go in the next couple weeks too... !!!

NE GSP · Post by **NE GSP** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:07 pm

Chambers is a hot spot for summer camps has been for years I made a long weekend trip to Pat waresk's camp summer before last and loved it. myself and Tim Thaden will be going first part of Aug. Pat went up last weekend if you have never met him he is a great guy if you go to Chambers Corner in the evening you might run into him.Hall of Famer Roy Jines is by Emmett another great Guy. Hank Rozanek is also at Emmett I have been told Hank has forgot more about dogs than most poeple know.

Tim

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:02 am

Tim,

It does seem like a great place and there are quite a few chickens around to train on. Not as many pheasants but I have seen a few and have been hearing a lot of quail. I talked with Hank a week or two ago and he said he was retiring from training but may still come up a time or two. He gave me Roy's number to give him a call. I will try and touch base with Pat, I have not met him yet but am glad to hear that he is here already. I did hear that Chamber's Corner is the place to meet quite a few of the guys. It should be fun and I am looking forward to it. If you get up this way, let me know.

Thanks for the info

Jeff

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:18 am

NE GSP wrote:Chambers is a hot spot for summer camps has been for years I made a long weekend trip to Pat waresk's camp summer before last and loved it. myself and Tim Thaden will be going first part of Aug. Pat went up last weekend if you have never met him he is a great guy if you go to Chambers Corner in the evening you might run into him.Hall of Famer Roy Jines is by Emmett another great Guy. Hank Rozanek is also at Emmett I have been told Hank has forgot more about dogs than most poeple know.

Tim

Hank is the guy I got my dog from!!!!

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:20 am

So even though Hank R. is in Nebraska, it's better to move up to the Dakotas for the summer months??

I had no idea he does the summer camp thing too...

Adam Dahlstrom · Post by **Adam Dahlstrom** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:29 am

I don't know what you guys are talking about but I have a tuff time getting on land here in ND. I think the birds took a hit too. We had a wet fall, hard winter and wet spring. Not good for young birds. Alot of CRP is coming out too. I think the "Good Old Days" are coming to an end.

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:44 am

So how does this work?? Without hitting the trainers up with too many stupid questions, do they have the owners pay them a fee for taking dogs up north in the summer?? Then it's a matter of getting on land that has birds and running dogs on them to get a ton of exposure on wild birds??
The key must be to have a pool of owners willing to pay the fee and send thier dogs off with the trainers.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:22 pm

Jurso, Typically the pro's will bring up numerous dogs , but will have a maximum on their "string". I know my trainer will bring about 15-18 dogs, mine being only one of the group. Some people might have 2,or 3 dogs on a particular string. This allows him enough daylight to dedicate to the total dogs on his string, and he does not do it alone, he has helpers with him.
Bill L.

Boxa · Post by **Boxa** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:35 pm

I don't think it is a secret society, but its just like everything else out there. You are going to pay for it one way or another. Either dollars out of your pocket for the trainer to do it... or time, blood, sweat and tears to do it yourself.

I have done a couple of summer camps, one to condition a couple of hunting dogs for the season and one to prepare a young dog for hunting & trial season. Both times I knew I didn't have the time to do it myself due to work schedule - I knew what I wanted, communicated it clearly to the trainer on the front end and was pleased with the results.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:56 pm

Ben Garcia has a very good summer training program and camp. Very good. Very hard working. I recommend him highly.

http://www.hideawaykennels.com/dog-trai ... -camp.html

tyleetess · Post by **tyleetess** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:59 am

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Ben Garcia has a very good summer training program and camp. Very good. Very hard working. I recommend him highly.

http://www.hideawaykennels.com/dog-trai ... -camp.html

I agree, a straight shooter and all around stand up guy. He just put on a great seminar in Utah a couple of weeks ago.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:12 pm

Summer camp starts with roading and conditioning. The pros can't run on wild birds until a certain date (which depend on the state they are in), usually around the middle of July. Actual wild bird may be postponed beyond that in some years if the speargrass is still standing with seed heads in it. They will usually be up when it is still dark and will be out running dogs around 5 - 5:30. They stop when it gets too hot, which can be 9:30 - 10:00 a.m. on some days. They will maybe take a nap during the day or visit neighboring pros, and then do yard work on the dogs in the evening or put them on planted birds.

The young of the year prairie grouse are the best way there is to raise a young bird dog. They hold well for dogs, and because they have practice getting away from the fox they fly well enough that young dogs usually can't catch them.

Most of the pros have established camps they have been going to for several years, and have permission to run dogs on several thousand acres.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:58 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:Summer camp starts with roading and conditioning. The pros can't run on wild birds until a certain date (which depend on the state they are in), usually around the middle of July. Actual wild bird may be postponed beyond that in some years if the speargrass is still standing with seed heads in it. They will usually be up when it is still dark and will be out running dogs around 5 - 5:30. They stop when it gets too hot, which can be 9:30 - 10:00 a.m. on some days. They will maybe take a nap during the day or visit neighboring pros, and then do yard work on the dogs in the evening or put them on planted birds.

The young of the year prairie grouse are the best way there is to raise a young bird dog. They hold well for dogs, and because they have practice getting away from the fox they fly well enough that young dogs usually can't catch them.

Most of the pros have established camps they have been going to for several years, and have permission to run dogs on several thousand acres.

Good info and interesting part about the speargrass and wild birds. Is that because of the potential injury to the dogs? I would appreciate it if you could explain that part of it.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:51 am

Spear grass is one form of a grass awn that can be inhaled or impaled into the dog that is prone to infection. Nacarida is an infection of the lungs that is often fatal. Grass awns are bad stuff, and are around in most states, we are just not out when it heads. They are the little seed looking tops that have barbs, they can work their way from the foot up to the rib cage, from the nose to inside the lungs, the barbs keep them going one way and the dog cannot expell them.

All the pros are very careful, and know which areas to avoid.

The danger is real, but every trial pup ought to experience the prairies, it is irreplaceable. Not that older dogs won't benefit, but it is a must have for a young dog.

Neil

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:14 am

Thanks Neil. I am familiar with the stuff, we have foxtails out here. I was just a little confused over the wild bird part of the statement. I agree with you guys about the benefit to the derbys when you send them to camp.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:11 pm

I will let John answer, but I read it to mean that there was not much free running until the spear grass headed and fell off.
And I wouldn't know fox tail from spear grass from hemp, but I do know enough to stay out of the fields that have grass with heads/awns.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:17 pm

I am not entirely sure what the question is, but the pros go to these summer camps to run their dogs on wild birds. Now, they don't always run entirely on wild birds. I have seen summer camp operations where they put out johnny houses so there are coveys in known spots that they can get dogs into if the wild birds are not cooperating for some reason, but mainly they are there to run on the real thing.

The three things that affect running on wild birds are the temperatures, the state of the speargrass, and whether it is legal and the wild chicks are old enough. As far as temp is concerned, it does not matter much where the summer camp is, it is going to be too hot at some periods of time to run the dogs. So the pros generally get up before dawn and are ready to start running as soon as there is enough light. They quit when the temperature starts to get too hot for the dogs. On a given day, that could be 9 a.m., or noon, or later, but generally about 10 a.m. they are done. As far as the speargrass is concerned, the dogs can get it in their mouths or even inhale it. The seed head is shaped like a spear, it has a very sharp point, and it has little hairs that act like barbs, so the seed head will migrate through a dog's body and can cause all kinds of problems including death of the dog. The speargrass I have seen on the northern prairies is very distinctive, there is no mistaking it, and the pros don't take chances with it. Usually the seed heads fall off right about now (early July), but there have been years when the pros could not run in ND until Sept. because of it. So they road and do yard work instead, until the stuff is gone. As for the birds, in the old days there were no limits on when you could start running on wild birds, but now the DNR's and legislatures have established a time period during which it is not legal to run on wild birds, and in the northern tier states that is usually around July 15 but it is different in every State, so you have to check the laws of that particular state. You also don't want to be running on the birds if they are still unflighted chicks, which can happen because of weather delaying hatches.

I don't know of anyone who makes a summer camp out west, but there is also the issue of snakes in some areas. My summer camp experience has not been in "snaky" areas.

So the pros just deal with all that, and get the dogs out on young wild birds when the conditions allow. It is the very best way to raise a young bird dog.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:21 pm

PS Neil is absolutely correct, I am talking about the speargrass heading out and falling off the stalk. The seed head looks like a spear about 4 - 6" long with a very sharp head. When we were kids we used to throw it at each other, and it was sharp enough to stick in someone's skin. The seed head falls off in the middle of the summer, and once that happens it is not a threat to the dogs anymore. Of course, there are about as many things called "speargrass" as Carter has little liver pills, so in different areas that word will be used to describe different plants.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:24 pm

Thanks John, good information. We have about 4 pro's that summer camp in the White Mountains. On average, the altitude is 9,500 feet with huge alpine meadows. Gibbons is here all summer and Berneathy usually had summer camp here with his Britt's. T. Chandler is also here and you probably know Steve and Sue Passes who live up here in Alpine. I think that some of these people believe the altitude is helpful for conditioning. Gibbons uses Johnny houses with Chucker. I am sure there are a few more but names are not coming to me right now.

Guy

jurso · Post by **jurso** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:14 pm

Ok, so these guys gotta have access to power, or at least water right?? They cant just be out in the open with just their rig and string, and horses and gear...

They must have to go to a town a few times to get stuff.

It does sound like a great adventure and awesome training opportunity though.. No phone. No bill man, just dog trainin..

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:55 am

It can be fairly rudimentary. Most of the pros who go to the Dakotas have found a house to rent, but those houses are generally in pretty bad shape. They may have running water and a few still have an outhouse. They all haul their big rigs - trailers that include a camper section, dog section, and horse section. I haven't seen any of the White Mountains camps, but I am going to guess the people that go up there live out of their camper. Usually they have help with them for summer camp, because there are alot of dogs to train on the string, so that lets them go to town for supplies once in awhile. They work pretty hard at it while they are there.

Elroy's Bandit · Post by **Elroy's Bandit** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:14 am

People don't realize what the "pros" will sometimes endure while out on the circuit / training. They really do it for the love of the sport and the dogs, not the money. They do without a lot and it's bare bones for the most part. As John said, it's a rig with a small living quarters, dog area, horse area....and the scents of both are throughout. The generator will supply the needed electricity, and usually they keep a 150-200 gallon water tank with them. It is quite an adventure though.
Bill L.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:59 am

John,

Its pretty much the same in the White Mountains except there are not farm houses to rent since it is Ntl. Forest. Gibbons has a larger outfitters tent with about 4- 6' picnic tables and a large split 55 gal barbeque at the end. He has a retired couple fix lunch and dinner each day for his clients who come up to visit. One day when I was over their he had them cooking chicken over mesquite wood and boy that was good. But having said that, Bill is not bashful about his monthly rates.

Guy

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:58 pm

I run my summer camp out of my home. Typically I have to sleep in a Cali King size bed that can feel a little cramped. Usually once a summer the AC unit will go out and I might have some difficulty falling to sleep. Some days we'll run dogs right out the back door on the local huns and phez but often we might have to load up the horses and drive upwards of 30" to get into sharpies, sage hens, phez, huns, chukar or forest grouse depending on where we head. Can be quite distressing because we don't know where the birds are actually at once we get there. My summer camp also doubles as hunting camp - just substitue the heater going out for the AC unit. I think the difficulty and hardship is really what makes it special.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:30 am

DGFavor wrote:I think the difficulty and hardship is really what makes it special

He did leave out the fact its a "Dry" camp also,, we have to go into town to drink beer and scrape up dinner every night,,,, how much prime rib can I a guy eat,,,, gets old having the waitresses hitting on ya all the time too.

larue · Post by **larue** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:07 am

yeah doug,I will tell you what I told dan,you guys need a penalty in trials for being able to train where you can.
I fell in love with the little I saw of the scabland out there.
Living out there I can see why people dont go anywhere to train in the summer.
I wonder often how big eva would be out there,I had the chance to run her with a garman here and she seems to hang out at 6/10ths of a mile with some disconnections when she push's it over 1 mile.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:45 pm

Larue,

You need to look into to a long range antenna, TBI has both.

Not many dogs ever exceed a mile and still handle,

Neil

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:53 pm

Neil wrote:You need to look into to a long range antenna

Or a shock collar,,, they have no business being out there at that range.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:54 am

They sure can't win if they spend much time that far out.

And you will let things slide with the Garmin. I was running a dog on some ground familiar to us both, riding along singing to him when I realized I had not seen him in over 30 minutes, he knew where I was (and where I was going), I had the Garmin to show me he was not all that far to the front, not enough to lose contact, but far enough to stay out of sight. Pre-Garmin, even with a tracker, I would never have let that happen. But knowing right were he was and that it would signal "point", I was just riding along; fat, dumb and happy.

I stopped, called the dog to me, and turned the Garmin off for the rest of the run. Neither of us were learning anything good,

Neil

larue · Post by **larue** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:16 am

I guess I dont think that a dog out that far is a dog out of contention,if our gun dogs can run almost that big,what do we expect out of an all age dog?.

Or a shock collar,,, they have no business being out there at that range.

R heaton,you can keep your dogs as close as you want dont tell me at what range I should keep mine.
If I never win a trial over her,because she runs too big for an all age stake,it will be my choice
She is happy way out there,and so am I with her.Not all of us need to see a dog under our feet at all times,and I dont tell you to get your dogs out farther from you.

my point was simple,when out west a dog can really stretch out and find wild birds that he will never catch,sort of like
the perfect world for a nice dog.
When compared to how I have to train here in wisconsin,it does not even compare,especially with a dog wants to roll along
finding birds.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:43 am

Rich is just messin' with ya' Dennis makin' the point that out training these dogs don't need to be runnin' like that (see Neil's post regarding range). Just a mistake most of us am's make cause we like to watch our dogs roll then chase 'em around with our Tracker's!!

You don't want to be challengin' Rich's dogs in the range department guarantee ya!! (can't get him to practice what he preaches!! Probably out looking for a dog right now!!

)

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:27 pm

Sorry Dennis,,,,, my bad.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:37 pm

I haven't seen Richy's dogs run but think they might be able to do a mile. Just a hunch. I have seen Dougy's with Richy scouting and they can do a mile. However, Doug and I have an 0 and 1 record as scout and handler trying to see a dog that far out.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:51 pm

When they're out that far you better know the terrain you're headed into so you can avoid pieces of land that peter out or dead end.

Rich Heaton · Post by **Rich Heaton** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:16 pm

BigShooter wrote:you better know the terrain you're headed into so you can avoid pieces of land that peter out or dead end

Better explain,,,, never seen a piece of land peter out or dead end. What do you think John,,,,, Mile Post 9 peters right into Mile Post 8 and then 7.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:44 pm

Rich,

I PM'd you.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:44 pm

I think it peters out into those big hills on the south. At least, folks who don't have a good horse would see it that way. On the west, well it may peter out over in Washington somewhere, I don't know, haven't ridden that far yet. The Pacific is over there somewhere I think. It probably peters out when it hits the Pacific.