A Little Help, Please

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Neil
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A Little Help, Please

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:43 pm

I recently saw the results of a trial that has me scratching my head. It was a 7 dog Open Gun Dog (Retrieving), the judges withheld 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, awarding 4th. I don't get that thinking. Although I rarely do it, I can understand withholding placements that would award FC points, but that was not the case here, as only first would have gained points.

I mean they are saying that the 4th place dog was beaten by their mythical standards, that they felt he was only deserving of 4th place! I guess I am not that good of a judge, I would like to think I can pick the best 4 dogs most times, but I can't put that fine a point on it.

Could it be that they had a call back for retrieve, but already had the dogs placed in their minds on the first series, and the top three dogs flubbed the retrieve? It is the only thing I can think of, and that seems weird. Don't they judge the retrieve? Or is it a pass/fail thing?

What am I missing?

I would hate to be a pro explaining that to an owner.

Neil

Dave Quindt
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Re: A Little Help, Please

Post by Dave Quindt » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:21 pm

Neil,

I have seen this before; in fact I know where it happened at a 4pt open gundog stake. To me, it's incredibly cruel of the judges to award 4th and withhold 1st through 3rd. I don't understand the logic. You make the 4th place dog look like a joke.
Could it be that they had a call back for retrieve, but already had the dogs placed in their minds on the first series, and the top three dogs flubbed the retrieve? It is the only thing I can think of, and that seems weird. Don't they judge the retrieve? Or is it a pass/fail thing?
Sure, kick open that can of worms!

How the retrieve is judged depends on the judges. "Conventional Wisdom" says the retrieve is judged pass/fail, and as long as the bird gets back (ok, close to) the handler, the dog has completed the retrieve. There is no basis for that in the rule book, and no basis for that historically. We've let the practical judging standard for retrieving slip so far that we've almost turned it into nothing more than a "steadiness through the kill" test in many cases. Quote the standard from the rule book, and you'll get the "evil eye" from a lot of folks, both pros and amateurs.

There are still occasions where the judges will tell the handlers brought back for the kill that "the stake is too close to call, and we're going to judge retrieve to determine the winner". Music to my ears, but I expect a dog to retrieve as well as he does everything else.

I guess it's possible that they had their 4 dogs already placed in their minds, and were treating the retrieve as pass/fail. Even so, if it's a 7 dog stake give the one clean dog 2nd, if anything. The only other possible scenario was that all 7 dogs in the stake were clean with birds and "usable" going into the retrieve, and the first 6 blew up, so they gave 4th to their "last place dog". Possible, but unlikely.

Weird situation, as is a 7 dog stake. I'd be curious to know who the judges were. I certainly can't make sense it.

JMO,
Dave

Neil
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Re: A Little Help, Please

Post by Neil » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:52 am

It was not my intention to disparage the judges, I was just trying to understand, and if you can't see it either with all your experience I don't feel so bad.

But hey, it is public information - Jan 31, 2010 OGD of GSP Club of San Antonio judged by Bonnie Porter and Eric R Sailors.

The same site that has the results of all AKC trials also shows the judges previous assignments - http://www.remekvizslas.net/ftHome.php4 (Pretty neat, thanks Skip), and both judges have a good bit of experience and neither have a history of withholding a lot of placements, so I am sure they had their reasons, it just seemed odd.

Getting 4th with 1st through 3rd withheld is not a slap in the face, it is a kick in the groin.

Neil

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dan v
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Re: A Little Help, Please

Post by dan v » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:12 pm

Neil,

I've been involved with some weird stuff while judging, as have all judges I assume. I would hope the 1-3 WH and 4th awarded is indeed a result of the callback going poorly. In that 7 dog stake (what, they couldn't find an 8th to make it 2 pts?) They probably only had 4 clean pooches. Had them ranked and agreed the 4th place dog was gift at best. So the 4th place did the ret work....grabbing the white.

Now it may feel like a slight, but in some of the "off breeds" that white ribbon may qualify a dog to run in their breed Championship.....so to them it MAY be a big deal. And don't discount the handler in fact stating that.

Say the 4th place dog is with a pro. Say the dog has been on the string as a derby and now a young GD. The owner is getting restless, feeling the dog isn't progressing...it may not be, because of the talent level, or it may just be green. The white ribbon is something that may keep that owner in the sport, or the dog with the pro for another month or two.

In a perfect world I'd like to think all my placing dogs are worthy of first, the 2nd place dog just got beat is all. But we know that's not always the case.

I appreciate you not poor mouthing the judges....I find it's stressful job....and don't pay squat :lol:
Dan

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Chief_dog
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Re: A Little Help, Please

Post by Chief_dog » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:11 am

Neil,
I have talked to the owner of the dog that got fourth place. He said to tell you that if he’d been judging the dog would have never been in the call back anyhow.

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