NGSPCA REGION 9

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NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by northern cajun » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:54 pm

I saw that all placements were with held in ASD and OAA at the NGSPCA Region 9 Championship any body hear anything? Wasnt much of a write up in AF.
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Casper » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:04 am

From what I heard there was really high winds making for poor scenting conditions. Dogs either went birdless or had poor bird work and/or just didnt apply themselves. Just a bunch of bad luck all around.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by northern cajun » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:49 am

Thanks very much.
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:52 pm

There was still a best dog under those conditions, and the pointer guys would have identified them, if not as Ch/RUCh, then convert to 1-2-3. It is very rare for for a true American Field trial to with hold placements, unless the dogs were disqualified.

That with holding placements is an AKC thing; smacks of arrogance (the judges being so all knowing that no dog was worthy of a title), and seems to benefit the clubs (they retain the pay out).

If you want to be taken seriously by the other American Field folks, you will recognize that you do not always have a perfect performance, the judge's job is to pick the best under those conditions.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Casper » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:10 pm

Neil before you go assuming anything...............

Know that there are times where even good dogs don't have a worthy performance for even placing 1, 2, or 3.

Stating that that is an "AKC thing" is BS and you of all people should know that. Saying such comes across as you dumbing down AKC dogs.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 pm

Casper wrote:Neil before you go assuming anything...............

Know that there are times where even good dogs don't have a worthy performance for even placing 1, 2, or 3.
Nope, I know the exact opposite, there is always a best dog! ALWAYS. Whereas you are required to point a bird to win a Championship, the stake can and should be converted to 1-2-3 and the dogs placed on application. It is how it has always been done in American Field, and how I believe it should be done. I have ran in and judged some crappy trials, not just with bad weather conditions or a lack of birds, just days when none of the dogs could put it together, but there was still a best dog.

I have been in AKC Brittanys for a number of years, but I started with All-Age pointers, and have promoted dual sanctioning (AKC/American Field)since the 70's for Britts. I am not anti-AKC at all, they bring a lot of good things to the sport, chiefly the dual dog. But with holding placements is not one I value.

But you are right to correct me, I should have said with holding championships is a GSP AKC thing. The only time I have known it to happen with Britts was when we have had GSP judges.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by myerstenn » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:11 am

You gain nothing by withholding placements,In the af world its nothing but a placement, no accumulation of points,zero,123 should of been consisered. I agree with you Neil. And yes, withholding is an AKC mentality.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:24 am

myerstenn wrote:You gain nothing by withholding placements,In the af world its nothing but a placement, no accumulation of points,zero,123 should of been consisered. I agree with you Neil. And yes, withholding is an AKC mentality.
You are right, it is an AKC mentality thing that was started so that dogs that do not do well do not get credit towards their championship. Can be argued if its right or wrong but since every win counts as part of their championship AKC is doing like the Field and qualifying what should count. I tend to agree with Niel though that a day where all dogs do poorly does not indicate the dogs are bad but that it was a bad day for scenting or some other reason. So why shouldn't the dog that did the best on a bad day still get credit?

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by myerstenn » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:02 am

ezzy333 wrote:
myerstenn wrote:You gain nothing by withholding placements,In the af world its nothing but a placement, no accumulation of points,zero,123 should of been consisered. I agree with you Neil. And yes, withholding is an AKC mentality.
You are right, it is an AKC mentality thing that was started so that dogs that do not do well do not get credit towards their championship. Can be argued if its right or wrong but since every win counts as part of their championship AKC is doing like the Field and qualifying what should count. I tend to agree with Niel though that a day where all dogs do poorly does not indicate the dogs are bad but that it was a bad day for scenting or some other reason. So why shouldn't the dog that did the best on a bad day still get credit?

Ezzy
They should in an AMERICAN FIELD stake such as the one we are discussing,poor bird work ? Consider race,if you cant get three give two placements.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by remmy » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:14 pm

Was anybody there? Maybe no dog made it around clean. How can you award placements then? It was stated above that there was poor scenting conditions and dogs had poor bird work. Sounds to me that maybe dogs went birdless and the rest busted birds maybe?

If there were dogs that made it around clean then yes, I agree, there should have at least been 123 placements. I wasn't there and don't know what the dogs did.
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:03 pm

Sorry guys I have strong feelings about this, but I will still try to be mannerly. I did not need to be there to see it, there is just no reason to with hold placements.

The birdless aspect has been covered, you place on ground application, picking the dogs that had there been birds you believe they would have been most likely to have found them. And if the birds were flushing wild and the dogs getting only stop to flushes, then the one that would have been most likely to have handled them had the birds behaved normally.

As for being clean that is another AKC thing, there have been dogs that have won the National Championship at Ames after knocking birds and chasing as recently as the 70's. In the old days, early 1900's, it was very common, the winner sometimes often knocking 1/2 of their birds. The standard used to be if the dog presented the game to the gun most of the time, he should be considered. Thankfully our dogs have improved and our judging standards have gone up.

But I would still rather pick the best dog, not the perfect one, the dog that would find the most wild birds if they were available, even if he moved some on point, not the uninspired and uninspiring robot that never moved, sometimes acting as though he hated the birds.

This isn't theory, I placed such a dog - found on point, he self-relocated as the handler approached and the birds popped, the dog stopped on his own, and a straggler was flushed and the dog shot over. This was his 3rd find, the first two being handled properly. We had another 3 find dog with better ground application we used first, but this dog was clearly the 2nd place dog even with the slight mistake (slight in my mind, the other the judge, other handlers, and most of the gallery saw it as an elimination infraction). I am proud to say I was able to get the other judge to agree.

Perhaps it is because I recognize that I have so many flaws myself, that I am a positive judge in the extreme. I don't spend a lot of time thinking or remembering what a dog did wrong, but I pay very close attention to what he did right. According to the Amesian Standard Mr. Ames agreed with me.

There is never a reason to with hold placements in an American Field trial (other than the dog or handler being disqualified, and that is the club officials not the judges), and it pains me to do it in an AKC trial.

Neil

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by myerstenn » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:02 pm

remmy wrote:Was anybody there? Maybe no dog made it around clean. How can you award placements then? It was stated above that there was poor scenting conditions and dogs had poor bird work. Sounds to me that maybe dogs went birdless and the rest busted birds maybe?

If there were dogs that made it around clean then yes, I agree, there should have at least been 123 placements. I wasn't there and don't know what the dogs did.
Remmy,In an american field stake(NGSPA)they dont have to have a bird to place, That being said, I believe they should in a championship stake. Lets take this for example, The first critera to follow placing all-age dogs dogs would be, they have to meet the race critera . If a shooting dog goes around and has 3 niece pieces of bird work, he doesnt meet the critera of appropiate race ,but you might argue he was clean, yes but ,he didnt meet the race critera for the stake so therefore he would receive minimal consideration. In some cases the dog might receive consideration after the"all age"dogs with race have been placed. If the judges used the 1 2 3 placement scenario and only had two dogs that had an all-age race they might consider the dog for third place. Obviously race and acceptable bird work is the best case scenario

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Rich Heaton » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:36 pm

Most likely just poor judging.
Neil wrote:I did not need to be there to see it, there is just no reason to with hold placements.
Riddle me this Neil,,,,, what do ya do when no dog finishes the hour? Either by getting lost, quits running, poor birdwork and handler elects to put the dog in the harness?
Neil wrote:And if the birds were flushing wild and the dogs getting only stop to flushes, then the one that would have been most likely to have handled them had the birds behaved normally.
So out of the dogs that didn't get anything pointed, ya try to figure out the ones that if they would have gotten something pointed would have got them pointed the best? What do ya do if ya know if a dog would have gotten something pointed you knew he was going to do it with poor style?

Yea I read the AF write up,,,, and it was kinda of short and not alot of detail. What caught my eye was the list of names and thanks given for the volunteers that put the trial on. That was the true fallicy, that 95% of the credit should have gone to Destrie and Katie Hansen, they did a great job with very little help. The weather was tough but they adapted and were flexible and still put on a great trial.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Dave Quindt » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:10 pm

Give it up Heaton; the gig is up. Now we know you're nothing but a shill for the AKC GSP folks with your "AKC mentality" :)

Too bad we didn't have a pointer guy in the saddle as they'd have found some dogs worthy of placing. You don't know any of them infallible, upstanding pointer guys willing to judge, do ya?

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by DGFavor » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:07 pm

what do ya do when no dog finishes the hour? Either by getting lost, quits running, poor birdwork and handler elects to put the dog in the harness?
Hmmm, time for the 'ol Mulligan...you all look ashamedly at each other, chuckle a little, tee 'em back up then try and hit one in bounds!! :lol: :lol: Block the gates, call 'em all back, no one leaves until someone wins the dang thing!! :lol:

I do agree that there is always a winner, sometimes it's just the best of the worst...I guess the exception would be when by every definition of the game, they all lose...which from my understanding is what happened in the AA. I had a dog there and sounded to me like he lost at least a handful of times before it was too much of a spectacle for even the most tolerant to stomach!! :lol: :lol:

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by remmy » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:19 pm

myerstenn wrote:
remmy wrote:Was anybody there? Maybe no dog made it around clean. How can you award placements then? It was stated above that there was poor scenting conditions and dogs had poor bird work. Sounds to me that maybe dogs went birdless and the rest busted birds maybe?

If there were dogs that made it around clean then yes, I agree, there should have at least been 123 placements. I wasn't there and don't know what the dogs did.
Remmy,In an american field stake(NGSPA)they dont have to have a bird to place, That being said, I believe they should in a championship stake. Lets take this for example, The first critera to follow placing all-age dogs dogs would be, they have to meet the race critera . If a shooting dog goes around and has 3 niece pieces of bird work, he doesnt meet the critera of appropiate race ,but you might argue he was clean, yes but ,he didnt meet the race critera for the stake so therefore he would receive minimal consideration. In some cases the dog might receive consideration after the"all age"dogs with race have been placed. If the judges used the 1 2 3 placement scenario and only had two dogs that had an all-age race they might consider the dog for third place. Obviously race and acceptable bird work is the best case scenario
Yes, but for all we know all the dogs could have gotten picked up...whether by handler or judge or whatever. What I meant by getting around clean is getting around period! We don't know what happened there. If you have no dogs finish the hour then you can't have placements. Like I said above, in different words, if a dog finished the hour then I agree there should have been placements. But then again...who cares about 123 placements at a Championship? I don't. It doesn't mean anything so I don't care. It's telling me that my dog is not a champion performer but here's a $150 ribbon. Really, who cares?

Wasn't there a thread on this before? I think it was the with holding at Booneville while back.
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:38 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:Most likely just poor judging.
Neil wrote:I did not need to be there to see it, there is just no reason to with hold placements.
Riddle me this Neil,,,,, what do ya do when no dog finishes the hour? Either by getting lost, quits running, poor birdwork and handler elects to put the dog in the harness?
Neil wrote:And if the birds were flushing wild and the dogs getting only stop to flushes, then the one that would have been most likely to have handled them had the birds behaved normally.
So out of the dogs that didn't get anything pointed, ya try to figure out the ones that if they would have gotten something pointed would have got them pointed the best? What do ya do if ya know if a dog would have gotten something pointed you knew he was going to do it with poor style?
Rich,

I reckon that if none of the dogs can finish an hour you need more dogs.

And yes, I would name the dog that had the best stop to flush, however I could find a way to define that, after a 2nd, 3rd, and maybe 4th series.

Let us cut to the chase, what happens to the purse when you all with hold the placements? Following the money always gives answers.

And Remmy, I care about 1-2-3. My dog might not have had a championship performance, but it still has meaning to have the best of the worst.

I am just telling you that others are watching, and you are not gaining any fans with holding placements, in fact it is hurting. People are unfairly questioning the quality of the dogs, having seen them I know that not the case.

Once again you are yelling at the messenger,

Neil

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by DGFavor » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:26 pm

Neil wrote:Let us cut to the chase, what happens to the purse when you all with hold the placements?
Half goes to the judges, I thought that was a given.

One of the the tough decisions that is to made with call backs is time and weather? The NGSPA circles are small even smaller out in the west. To run a second series in an ideal world is a great idea,,,, but IMO you have to take the stake that runs afterwards into consideration. Lets say from past history you know you can start on a Thursday and be done by Sunday night. People take off work, spend there hard earned money and travel along ways in the west to trial. Now by running them all again it puts the second or third stake into the next week and they end of scratching and leaving mad. The weather out here is always a threat, not only the weather we were having was tough but the weather reports and the horizon was saying the worst is yet to come. So a second series would have cost the entries in the next stake, most likely just a cancellation of the stake cause of weather delay and loss of entries. Talk about alot of mad people then.

I will stick to my opinion though,,,,, if no dogs finish the hour then no placements can be given.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Dave Quindt » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:02 pm

Take a look at the average number of starters at GSP championships vs AF all-breed or Brittany championships and you'll see why we end up with placements being withheld. When you only average about 12-13 dogs, it's not terribly hard to not have a usable dog at the end of the stake.

And the idea that there's some sort of conspiracy within the club to retain prize money sure doesn't pass the smell test considering the number of GSP championships where there are not enough starters to qualify for a payout. Personally, I think we should get rid of prize money all together. The sport doesn't need it, and it causes more problems than it's worth.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by DGFavor » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:57 pm

Half goes to the judges, I thought that was a given.

One of the the tough decisions that is to made with call backs is time and weather? The NGSPA circles are small even smaller out in the west. To run a second series in an ideal world is a great idea,,,, but IMO you have to take the stake that runs afterwards into consideration. Lets say from past history you know you can start on a Thursday and be done by Sunday night. People take off work, spend there hard earned money and travel along ways in the west to trial. Now by running them all again it puts the second or third stake into the next week and they end of scratching and leaving mad. The weather out here is always a threat, not only the weather we were having was tough but the weather reports and the horizon was saying the worst is yet to come. So a second series would have cost the entries in the next stake, most likely just a cancellation of the stake cause of weather delay and loss of entries. Talk about alot of mad people then.

I will stick to my opinion though,,,,, if no dogs finish the hour then no placements can be given.
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Rich Heaton » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:54 pm

Yikes,,,,, sorry man,,, yea that was my opinion. I just pressed "reply" and I was good to go.

Anyway's,,,,, Neil ya have an arse chewing coming, ya want it public or private?

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Empire » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:09 am

Hmm... Rich and I were both there, sorry to tell ya Neil in the stake I judged we had 12-13 dogs, 2 were around clean, both gundogs at best. The mentality that we should place dogs 1-2-3 the best of the worst ? Sorry I can't see it. Maybe we should run are dogs, then everybody should get a ribbon and we can sit around and have capri suns and orange slices :D

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:31 pm

I can take it publicly.

But I just thought you guys might want to know what the folks think when they read you all routinely with hold placements in Championships, and it ain't nice. It is not like it is a rare event, the joke about naming a dog "With Held" and being dog of the year would be about right.

Empire,

They do not have to have birds for a 1-2-3, so clean does not matter, and they can move or even chase.

Perhaps if you would place the best dogs you might draw more, and better.

Neil

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by DGFavor » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:38 pm

Heck man, trying to hang in there and be the best of the worst has treated me pretty well!! Put up a score and hope no dogs suck better than mine! Little margin for error with that strategy though - pretty easy to just end up being the worst...luckily they only keep track of the wins, not the losses!! Also nice the judges don't give places to the whole field - going down on paper as being the worst of the worst would probably start to wear even on me after awhile!! :lol: :lol:

I've got no problem naming champions and/or winners at all these deals but I don't rely on just paper and titles to evaluate dogs. The "system" is much more important to those that don't get out and watch with their own eyes and will evaluate or breed dogs just based on what shows up in the win column. This discussion continues to illustrate that all "Ch's" and "W's" just aren't created equal.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:40 pm

Neil wrote: My dog might not have had a championship performance, but it still has meaning to have the best of the worst.
Living proof ya just can't set the bar low enough for some people.

Neil I think your comments about following the money trail is complete BS. It not only show's your arrogance but also you have questioned my integrity as a judge and trialer. Gotta love the part about not even having to be there to know what the situation was. Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. This is the kinda of BS that is bad for trialing. Not one single person in the AA stake questioned the judgement. You implying that there is some sort of conspiracing between the judges and the host club is beyond offensive, you need to step away from the computer and go get involved and watch a trial or two. You claim to have been around for some time now, but it is quite obvious it is at no real capacity.

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:55 pm

Rich,

Feel better now?

It was not my intention to imply that you are an out and out crook, and for it sounding like that to you I apologize.

What I think has happen is that the clubs have fostered an environment where it is accepted to with hold placements; that they do influence judges to judge to a very strict (often unacheivable) standard, not hold a second series, and they retain the purse.

Had it happened at only the one trial, I would not have said anything, but Rich it has become common, too common with the GSP's. Other breeds run on many of the same areas and grounds, yet few to none with hold titles. why do you think that is so?. So I really think my theory is the less offensive than the one most outsiders contend.

But to add to my apology, if you guys are OK with the field trial community thinking GSP's don't measure up, it is fine with me. But know they are talking, and insulting me personally does not change it.

Neil

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Dave Quindt » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:15 pm

Neil wrote:Rich,

Had it happened at only the one trial, I would not have said anything, but Rich it has become common, too common with the GSP's. Other breeds run on many of the same areas and grounds, yet few to none with hold titles. why do you think that is so?. So I really think my theory is the less offensive than the one most outsiders contend.

But to add to my apology, if you guys are OK with the field trial community thinking GSP's don't measure up, it is fine with me. But know they are talking, and insulting me personally does not change it.

Neil
"Has become common?" How 'bout has always been common!

At the first ever NGSPA National Championship in '53 the title was withheld; with a couple of pointer guys in the saddle. The National Championship was also withheld 3 times in a 6 year period; '83, '84 & '88. Then again in '91. I've seen the list of guys who were judged those stakes; they primarily were not GSP folks!

The last time we had this little chat, I ran the numbers as to the average starters for an NGSPA stake; it was about 12.5 dogs. Neil, don't you think that might just have something to do with it? Comparing one organization that averages less than 13 dogs per stake vs another that might average 30 or 60 dogs per stake on those same grounds isn't exactly apples to apples, is it?

The most ironic thing about this entire thread is that virtually every conversation I've had with a championship-caliber non-GSP judge regarding this topic was 180* different than your point of view. I've been told time and time again about how they are pleasantly surprised that withholding placements is still accepted, and about how they'd like to be able to do the same thing in other championships that they judge but can't because they know they'd be blacklisted. Many have said they thought that the longstanding tradition of not rewarding substandard performances for the sake of handing out a ribbon or plaque was one of the major factors in why the GSP has improved over the years.

Personally, I see the acceptance of withholding placements as a bit of a badge of honor for my breed in this sport. The primarily purpose of a GSP trial is to give the GSP breeder a way to evaluate potential breeding stock; the purpose is not to impress the Pointer or Brittany folks. What they think of GSP trials and our dogs has absolutely no bearing on whether or not we're bettering our breed. In fact no single concept has done the GSP more harm that the one of "we need to be more like the Pointer folks."

Neil, you're entitled to your opinion. But keep in mind that no GSP owner or handler wants to be awarded a win when he and the rest of the folks there know that the performance wasn't worthy of the title. The judge's primary duty IMO is to protect the integrity of the standard and the value of the title and not to bow to pressure to award a substandard performance for the sake of avoiding criticism or going along with tradition.

JMO,
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Thor » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:59 pm

Very nice, well thought out post Dave, for that I applaud you.

As for anyone who thinks its easy to sit in that for 2 to 5 days and look/evaluate the performances of dog/handlers, go do it one time and you'll see differently.

As far as with holding placements, way to go judges!!! If none of the animals stood out giving the judges/gallery tall moments in the saddle, there doesn't need to be a winner. Championships are for just that. Isn't that why we have classics?

To me the problem isn't the AF, the judges or the hosts. Its the breed sanctioning body. When is the last time you read about a gsp classic? They don't happen. Everyone wants to run in championships. The more championships people run, the lower the value of said championshulips become. Maybe AF needs to go to a point system like AKC. Until then, leave the decisions to those who have been choosen to judge. Afterall, that is the only decission thay matters, right?
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myerstenn
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by myerstenn » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:17 am

Thor wrote:Very nice, well thought out post Dave, for that I applaud you.

As for anyone who thinks its easy to sit in that for 2 to 5 days and look/evaluate the performances of dog/handlers, go do it one time and you'll see differently.

As far as with holding placements, way to go judges!!! If none of the animals stood out giving the judges/gallery tall moments in the saddle, there doesn't need to be a winner. Championships are for just that. Isn't that why we have classics?

To me the problem isn't the AF, the judges or the hosts. Its the breed sanctioning body. When is the last time you read about a gsp classic? They don't happen. Everyone wants to run in championships. The more championships people run, the lower the value of said championshulips become. Maybe AF needs to go to a point system like AKC. Until then, leave the decisions to those who have been choosen to judge. Afterall, that is the only decission thay matters, right?
If you are the person I think you are Thor, You recently tried the opposite, wanted to give a championship on just race ,maybe, you ought not to be so quick to criticize. If your not that person forget I wrote this! As for you Dave, your are the perfect example Of the AKC Mentality, no flexibility ,nothing is gray, just black and white. It doesn't work that way ! I dont belive that Neil is advocating putting up the "Pig for the day theory" He going to use the next best dog theory. Your percentages in the nationals make for a different case in my mind. Maybe those facts mean just the opposite,Why waste the money ,why run ,they will just with hold it any way!!!

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DGFavor
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by DGFavor » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:12 am

Am I the only one that entertains the idea we GSP folk may generally just not have very good dogs for field trials (guess I should say AF championship trials to be specific)?? Or maybe we're not very good at prepping/showing/handling them in those type of field trials..?? I stick with GSP's because for what I do, which is hunt alot and alot of different species most often on foot, I truly believe they're the best thing goin'. If all I wanted to do was win horseback field trials, it'd be a no brainer to run pointers. Maybe we're trying to hard to pound a square peg into a round hole, as illustrated by the difficulty in consistently getting championship level performers...?? How many "withhelds" before we have to consider that maybe we're doing something wrong...or not doing something right...or using the wrong tool for the job...or...??

I will say I have seen some exemplary specimens in the GSP's that can compete and win in any venue I've ever been to but they really seem to be the exception rather than the rule with regards to the breed IMO.

Sheesh, hunting season can't come soon enough!! :lol: :lol:

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Rich Heaton » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:35 am

Neil wrote:But know they are talking, and insulting me personally does not change it.
Now Neil,,, I gave ya the option fair and square to take this privately. Also this thread is about the NGSPA Region 9, so any questioning of the judging and or conspiracy theories about payouts I am going to take personally. Better check and see who casted the first stone.

If we are going to just talk about the NGSPA Championships in general,,,, that's cool. I think the judges should work hard to place a Champion. The one aspects that has me torn with this discussion about "running'em again" is it breaks down the beauty of field trialing. When we take our dogs to the line we know going into it we have paid our money for 1 hour and we better shown'em what we are made of. I like to see multiply champions and runner ups on dogs it shows that consistantly that dog went out and put down a good performance when it was his time to shine. Calling back dogs 3 to 4 times isn't in that spirit. Now I do think calling them back to separate two great performance's is plenty acceptable, but not just to see if they can get it right or close enough to right.

In my experience with judging the ngspa its not the "high standard" of the judges that are keeping them down, its the birdwork and just being able to go an hour or running off and just getting lost. I'm all for positive judging but when everybody had the same hour to show and ya have nothing that made it to the end,,, the decision is pretty easy, and I really don't want to make decisions on "well you were only gone half the stake" "and that dog only chased 15 yards which beat the dog chased 20 yds". Don't get me wrong,,, I have seen it in the pointer world too, Championships that were there for the taking all ya needed to do was get around clean,,, and wouldn't know it I was lumped into the mix of dogs that couldn't pull it off. Douglas tell the one where ya let Lady go while I was still standing behind the dog wagon taking a "nervous" pee. All we needed was to get around on our home course 20 some dogs and they barely had two at the end.

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northern cajun
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by northern cajun » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:29 pm

Well this is not where I wanted the thread to go! I really just wanted some info as to what happened. Didnt know it would deteriorate into this, but I must admit it was interesting. :) :) :) :)
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by fuzznut » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:10 pm

The birdless aspect has been covered, you place on ground application, picking the dogs that had there been birds you believe they would have been most likely to have found them.
Hmmmm, seems we AKC types have had it all wrong for a lot of years. And heck, what a way to make money for the clubs! No birds, no bird bill. Just tell the judges....... imagine where birds would be,, should be, and then use your imaginaion that a dog that went there pointed them and handled them perfectly!

Eureka! Finally, my club can make a profit on our trial!
Thanks for the education.
Fuzz
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myerstenn
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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by myerstenn » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:39 am

FUZZ, just for the record were talking about American Field trials !!!!!!

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by DGFavor » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:30 am

Douglas tell the one where ya let Lady go while I was still standing behind the dog wagon taking a "nervous" pee. All we needed was to get around on our home course 20 some dogs and they barely had two at the end.
Hey man, I've explained it to ya' - we had the dogs on the ground styled up ready to go, two judges breathin' down our necks ready to go, your bracemates handler with his whistle loaded all ready to go, your horse standing behind me ready to go...so when they said let 'em go, I let 'em go. How was I to know you weren't on your horse...or anywhere near it. Sheesh, yer high maintenance man. I told ya' the direction she disappeared in as you were mountin' up - how much more help you need?? Woulda been even cooler if your horse went racing away too on the breakaway without ya'. Heck, at least your dog took off to go try and win the thing without ya, mine woulda probably ran over and pee'd on the tire with me!!

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Neil » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:18 pm

fuzznut wrote:
The birdless aspect has been covered, you place on ground application, picking the dogs that had there been birds you believe they would have been most likely to have found them.
Hmmmm, seems we AKC types have had it all wrong for a lot of years. And heck, what a way to make money for the clubs! No birds, no bird bill. Just tell the judges....... imagine where birds would be,, should be, and then use your imaginaion that a dog that went there pointed them and handled them perfectly!

Eureka! Finally, my club can make a profit on our trial!
Thanks for the education.
Fuzz
I have a hard time recognizing the sarcasm in the above, good judges do that all the time. It is why we have judges instead of just counting finds. They will all point, but not all hunt. I am a lot more concerned about how a dog goes through the country than if he can stand motionless while a bird flies off and someone shoots a cap gun. Perhaps the sarcasm is in the imagination thing, from actual experience they know where the birds would be if they were available.

But I am done with this, if you all don't care that others think your dogs are inferior, I sure don't. It is just not what I have seen from the GSP's, next to pointers the ones I have seen are at the top.

Neil

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Re: NGSPCA REGION 9

Post by Crestonegsp » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:17 pm

If placements are withheld in a Championship because there was not a "Championship Performance" I am ok with that. I was not at Region 9, only saw the write up in the field and have not talk to anyone so I can not pass judgement on the dogs and their performance. To withhold in a Championship is more important than a weekend trial after all it only takes one win to be an AF Champion but a group of wins to be an AKC Field Champion. I am proud of a AF championship my dog won a couple years ago knowing it was to a high standard he was held to and the dogs he beat in the stake.
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