JH-SH-MH

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:14 pm

Doess anybody here have a dog with an AKC Hunt Test title like the ones listed above? I have never been to one but the Senior and Master titles look pretty darn hard to get.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:38 pm

Not as yet. Because of the type hunting we do I don't break my dogs steady. That pretty much negates doing anything beyond a jh title or NSTRA. THis year however I have enough dogs I'll probably pull at least one out of the regular hunt string and put him all the way through his MH and start him on his AKC/AF field trial career. I'll also probably run at least four of them in NSTRA before and after the season. CR

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:55 pm

How many dogs do you usally train and keep for yourself each year?

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:38 pm

GH,

I have taken several dogs through the tests. THe MH is a tough one! The hardest part, IMHO, is having the dog stand through another dogs retrieve. Get to a few and watch, you will be surprised, the folks will get ya going quick!

CR, if your dogs are trained to be steady to the shot, they could get a SH title.

Phil
QC

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:44 pm

So you say another dog gets to retrieve while your dog has to set and watch.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:15 pm

GH,

In MH, one of the qualifications are, your dog has to back or honor a point and stay there while the pointing dog retrieves. IT's a tough one. You are not allowed to caution the dog either.

Phil
QC

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:00 am

GH,

The AKC hunting test program is a great way to lengthen your season. If you dog is steady to shot and will at least slow down when it sees another dog on point, Senior would be where I would start.

I have been involved the AKC hunting tests for over 15 years. I have had great success at all levels. I have put alot of time and effort into the program. I encourage all my puppy buyers to atleast try the Junior level. It is a great way to meet like minded people and see some nice dogs.

Featherman · Post by **Featherman** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:33 pm

Grousehunter22,

Here's a picture of my Gordon Setter. He's a Master Hunter, CGC, almost finished with his CH and places in AKC Field Trials. He is also a NAVHDA Utility Prize dog.

Not a bad weekend, Friday and Saturday, dog show RWD and WD and Saturday and Sunday Master Qualified runs number 9 and 10.

Given your Avitar, I thought you'd like this.

Jon

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:15 pm

A real beauty you have there. The Gordons are one of a kind to be around and in the field with. Unfortuanately I do not have one right now. That sure does sound like a good weekend.

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:31 pm

Featherman wrote: Lifes too short to hunt with an ugly dog

I agree. That is why I love them so much.

Featherman · Post by **Featherman** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:33 pm

GrouseHunter22,

Sorry, I thought from your avitar (little picture) you were a Gordon guy.

Jon

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:25 pm

Yes, MH is tough - I have maintained a MH is a better trained dog than an FC

I've had dogs qualify in all levels.

Featherman · Post by **Featherman** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:34 pm

WA Chucker Hunter,

Trained? Yes, but it's kind of like comparing different athletes. Say, football and golf: each has their strength and weakness. There is more to "worry" about (manners wise) in a Hunt Test only because there is killing on the course.

It's also the difference between a true competition (FT) and working towards a standard (HT). Both are fun and I enjoy both venues.

An SH or MH makes a fine dog as does an AFC or FC.

Jon

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:41 pm

GH it really varies a lot from year to year. Unfortunately I went one seven year stretch that I was only able to keep three dogs. This created a huge gap in age in my dogs and I looked up one day and two of the older dogs were dead and six were beyond six years old!

Remember I need to run at least four to six dogs a day a hundred plus days a year for my guiding so that means in order to not wear them out pushing any of them more than four days a week through the season I have to keep at least 12 "ready to go" dogs full time. Unfortunately through the drought life was pretty hard down here. The demand for my pups was such that every thing I raised for four straight years was sold before it was bred, and even today most are sold before they are born. That looks good on a ledger but it makes it very difficult to keep many dogs.

I bought usually at least one to three dogs a year to see if I could work them in the line here, most I did not like and sold or culled.

This year I'm probably going to keep at least ten then sort them out in the spring to see who stays, who goes, and who goes no where.

My end goal is in two years to have 15 every day dogs, six up and comers, and to have four to six I can be hunt testing and trialing in different venues.

Anyone want to trade me dog food bills? HA!

Keith is NOT knocking FT dogs, I know that for a fact, he's a very solid trainer and trains dogs for everything from general hunting to MH's and Dead broke FT shooting and All Age dogs, and does a very fine job of it. His only comment was on the different levels of finish in training. I can speak for him on this issue because we've discussed it numerous times. Keith is a verly old freind, and one that I made out of our mutual respect for each others dogs, and work after he'd trained six different dogs from various breedings of mine over the years that ended up in his part of Washington. Great guy, very knowlegeable trainer and dog man and if he has time to contribute here regularly will be a valuable resource to us all.

Cindy actually because of the simple fact that we deal with phsyctic running birds that love to disappear down the myriad of holes, (rats, rabbit, armadillo, and badger) or bury themselves up in cactus we don't even break them steady to the shot. Any bird that has any life left in it that doesn't have a dog on it in ten to thirty seconds runs about a fifty/fifty chance of being lost. I do however have them where when needed they can be instantly whoa'd even through four gunners dropting 2-4 birds each on a covey rise.

I have found though that because I keep them so well trained on whoa it's not much of a challenge when needed to steady them to the shot in just a few workouts. CR

Featherman · Post by **Featherman** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:09 pm

Charlie Rose wrote:

Anyone want to trade me dog food bills? HA!

Now Charlie, that's a lot of dogs by most peoples standard but it reminds me of the time I got a look a Ferrel Millers place... talk about mouths to feed! Now there's a guy that YOU wouldn't want to trade feed bills with.

I almost hate to say it but... it's a wonder that he can keep track of all those dogs; but then again?

Jon

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:15 pm

You know the more that mess shakes out the less it appears Ferrell had anything to do with the deception, but then it appears unfortunately that it's opened up such a can of worms as to "ethics" in general in the field trial world that the AF and FDSB are really going to have to make some very hard choices in the near future between balancing re-establishing the credibility of the registry and bankrupting both the registry and the AF by disqualifying so many dogs and individuals.

I recently found myself in a huge mess with one of my favorite bitches (that I bought) because one of her littermates earned his FC this year, got DNA'd and lo and behold the named sire cannot possibly be his sire. So now the whole litter's registration is in question until each individual dog is DNA'd checked against the named sire, and three other "possibles". If we don't get a satisfactory outcome it's going to be very ugly for both the dam and sire owners. CR

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:50 am

Charlie,

I do not break my dogs steady for the entire sequence. My dogs are allowed to go on the flush or shot when grouse hunting. I leave it up to dogs and so far, they have managed to behave accordingly where the situations call for either mode.

They will however come right off a missed bird if told to.

They only time I train to a high level is when I have a dog that I want to do MH or Utility tests with. I have one now, but she will not be grouse hunting until she acquires her titles. That way I do not have to worry about keeping her steady during my favorite passtime.

Featherman · Post by **Featherman** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:54 am

Charlie,

It has really become a mess. Had a friend that had a Miller pup that he was trying to get some "information" on... if you catch my drift and when he called Ferrell, he found him to be "done with this whole mess" and claims that Ferrell told him that he was finished with trialing.

Just hear-say but if it is even close to true, the FT world lost a good one, and probably many more along the way.

However one views the current problems, it's a mess that's only going to get bigger... what a shame.

Jon

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:17 am

WildRose wrote:You know the more that mess shakes out the less it appears Ferrell had anything to do with the deception, but then it appears unfortunately that it's opened up such a can of worms as to "ethics" in general in the field trial world that the AF and FDSB are really going to have to make some very hard choices in the near future between balancing re-establishing the credibility of the registry and bankrupting both the registry and the AF by disqualifying so many dogs and individuals.

I recently found myself in a huge mess with one of my favorite bitches (that I bought) because one of her littermates earned his FC this year, got DNA'd and lo and behold the named sire cannot possibly be his sire. So now the whole litter's registration is in question until each individual dog is DNA'd checked against the named sire, and three other "possibles". If we don't get a satisfactory outcome it's going to be very ugly for both the dam and sire owners. CR

This is all new to me, I hadn't heard this before. What exactly is going on?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:50 pm

Grouse hunter there's a couple of very long drawn out threads about this over on the Shooting sportsman and uplandbirddogs.com BB's, go read through them. In short Miller's online, bred by Ferrell, won the AF national All Age title this year. Upon being DNA'd they found out his named dam was not his actual dam. This has exposed some very crooked dealings with papers and pedigrees all over the Field trial world, promoting pups that aren't out of this or that high demand sire/dam, and fuding the papers on dates so that 2 year olds can still be running in puppy classes and even derbies six months after they are too old by rule.

In this case Ferrel doesn't seem to be really necessarily at fault, for anything but not being sure the named dam was in fact the named dam. However this has opened a HUGE can of ethical worms. CR

GrouseHunter22 · Post by **GrouseHunter22** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:33 pm

I get the picture now. Was it only pointers that have had this happen?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:54 pm

Well so far only two really big named Pointers have made the "news" in relation to this. However you will see in the future I'm sure as DNA requirements get stricter a whole lot more if this type thing. I have a good friend who's a real "big time" success on the AF Shooting and AA circuits that runs primarily setters, and he told me that he knows of a great many pointer and setter kennels that immediately started putting down dogs in large numbers so that their DNA could not be pulled for samples.

A very sad situiation to be sure. I know in my case in a way I'm lucky. Odds are pretty good we'll have all this resolved in a few weeks. Since I don't trial her I won't have lost placements, or titles. Hopefully it'll all be resolved before her next heat cycle because I already have about thirty people standing in line for her pups.

Had I been in the same boat as literally hundres of people who had pups out of On Line I'd be fit to be tied. He's sired a whole lot of winning pups, and by the time the lawsuits are all sorted out Ferrel (unfortunately) and the dam owner are both likely to be bankrupt. CR

sdgord · Post by **sdgord** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:14 pm

Since it is getting to that time of year is anyone else out there going to any hunt tests in the near future? I have filled out the entries for some tests in Neb. Both my Gordons have their JH and this will be our first attempt at the Senior. My youngest dog is fifteen months and is the most dependably broke. My older dog is broke when she feels like it. This morning out working on wild birds both dogs could do no wrong. Unfortunately no one was judging.
The only real soft spot for both dogs is their retrieve.
SDGORD

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:16 am

This DNA thing is a long time coming, and rightfully so too. I am glad they are pushing the issue. Unfortunatley we are going to lose a few good competitors. As I understand, this was just a mishap and they are singleing out Mr. Miller, which is not right either, but where do you draw the line?

At field trials I listen to many folks say that DNA profiling will not do anything for the for the dogs of "questionable breeding" in the past, but will deter the future mishaps. The latter part of the statement is somewhat true, BUT...with continued advances in DNA technology, the capabilty of determining the true parentage of deceased dogs will be possible. This taking course without direct access to the DNA of any dead dogs.

All it's going to take is someone with a little time, money and a bug up his hind quarters!

Phil

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