Gun Dog Forum

Everyone was (or still is) new to the AKC hunt test game at some point. The fastest way to learn about these things is to simply go watch one (or a few) and ask questions. After that competing with your dog is the time honored tradition in gaining more knowledge and experience.

I know a lot of you are or know AKC hunt test judges. Be it pointing tests or retrieving tests; these people are a gold mine of information for hunt test handlers. I also know from personal experience that some of the most valuable tips and information I've gotten from hunt testing was from judges. Either after my brace or during down time when they weren't otherwise occupied with their duties.


So here's my point: If you could ask a judge about anything (from a beginner's stand point); what would it be? I'm thinking maybe we can take the top ten suggestions and try to get some of our resident judges input for all of our betterment!

Since I had just been to my first field trial and had the privaledge of riding along with a judge these would be some questions I would ask:

Explain the score board to me?
What does a perfect score consist of?
What is the top reason you take off points?

Those are just a few I would ask...

Do you own a current hunting license?

How many days a year do you hunt?

How many years did you hunt before you started judging?

How many dogs have you finished at the MH or field champion level (FTers dont always participate in tests but do judge them)

If they dont have answers for any of these you might want to direct your questions to another judge.

How about This in return

1.Mr Trialer,have you read the rule book so you understand the rules and regulations of the stakes you are entering

2.Have you observed and walked any previous tests??

3.Do you have any idea what the dog must do in order for the dog to pass with an appropiate score?

4.Have you done some homework ,so you understand the basics of the process? Or did you just decide to show up today to
participate .

Questions on what can i do to help my dog receive a passing score are appropiate, It is the resposibility of the club to provide qualified judges,It is not for your responsibility to interview them on their past experience .

Questions on what can i do to help my dog receive a passing score are appropriate, It is the responsibility of the club to provide qualified judges,It is not for your responsibility to interview them on their past experience.

This much is true. This also gets right to the heart of why I thought to post the question in the first place. I've been to a few tests (and been in a few) now and have learned quite a lot. Not only from the judges, but from other handlers. Unfortunately it has been my experience that most of what I've learned from other handlers are things NOT to do. I have yet to have the privilege of being braced with any really good examples of how a handler can best assist their dog in attaining a qualifying score. As such, my number 1 piece of advice I have gathered through out my experiences is to get out and away from the other dog and handler! Your dog is under individual judgment. It is NOT a competition with the other dog. You are not doing you, your dog, or the other dog and handler any favors running on top of them.

I have made acquaintances with a number of the local judges in my area was thinking maybe I could compile a list of questions that people feel are the most common things a beginner might want to or should know; then approach some of these people in a casual manner (maybe via a survey?) to see what their thoughts are. I'd also be very interested in our resident judges opinions as well.

Perhaps things along the lines of the subject of this question?

• If you could tell a handler one thing to improve his performance in assisting his dog to a qualifying score; what would it be?
  
  What is the most common thing you see handlers do that you feel could negatively impact a dog's performance?
  
  What is your biggest pet peeve (pardon the pun) related to handlers and dogs while judging a brace?

Any ideas?

*Edited for formatting.

myerstenn wrote:Questions on what can i do to help my dog receive a passing score are appropiate.

If my dog fails to pass and I'm feel I need to ask that question I do. Pass or not I also thank the judges for sitting in the saddle, if not for them I couldn't be doing something I enjoy.

Coveyrise64

BirdDogLife wrote:
If you could tell a handler one thing to improve his performance in assisting his dog to a qualifying score; what would it be?

What is the most common thing you see handlers do that you feel could negatively impact a dog's performance?

What is your biggest pet peeve (pardon the pun) related to handlers and dogs while judging a brace?

1.Watch and ask successful handlers about the process, follow braces to see what it takes to be a winner, find someone in your neighborhood that has some knowledge you can gain about how the game works.
2. Thre are a lot of things a handler can do to help his/her dog ie. help with direction,keep the dog to the front ,keep them on lines,direct them to places that are likely spots for birds etc. Use a whistle for motivation when appropiate.
3.In horseback stakes it would be handles who ride off and forget they are there to show you the dogs capabilities.In walking stakesit would be folks who have been around for a considerable amount of time, but have never learned what type of dogs it takes to win with regardless of the venue. Then again I like cannon fauder also

-Do you hunt and do you hunt with dogs?
-Have you ever had a dog complete the level that you are judging?
-Why do you judge?

I have not run a dog in a hunt test for a long time. The thing that turned me off is what I have seen the judges in one state do. I judged with a women for a Master test. The dog took a couple steps toward the bird on the shot. The woman I was judging with at told the handler "great job you passed". I said wait a minute we both must agree on a pass and you allowed that dog to move on the shot. We talked about what happened and I found out she has never hunted a day in her life, never owned a shotgun, never finished a dog at any level. The next hunt test I was gunning for Master. A dog had a find, pointed and stood through the shot. The handler sent the dog and he would not retrieve, the judge told the handler to throw a rock so the dog could find the bird. Later that day during a callback because a dog did not have a chance to back in the field the person judging brought their dog out and worked the bird while judging the backing dog, WOW that was amazing.

The things that these clubs in that state allow would make you sick and the dogs all pass and everyone is so sure they are doing a great service to pointing breeds. The problem with hunt test is some people who judge them have no business doing it and are passing dogs that should never pass and if you judge and hold dogs to the standard they think your just being a hard a$$.

Casper wrote:Do you own a current hunting license?

How many days a year do you hunt?

How many years did you hunt before you started judging?

How many dogs have you finished at the MH or field champion level (FTers dont always participate in tests but do judge them)

If they dont have answers for any of these you might want to direct your questions to another judge.

Wow!!!!

I agree + 10

Crestonegsp wrote: The problem with hunt test is some people who judge them have no business doing it and are passing dogs that should never pass and if you judge and hold dogs to the standard they think your just being a hard a$$.

Actually, I have found as many judges that are, as you say, hard a$$, and mark dogs down for nonsensical things as not responding immediately, or taking a step to mark a bird, or getting a little close on a back, etc.

It is all caused by not having enough experience, but due to not understanding, they sway both ways (often the same judge), being too harsh when it does not matter as to a hunting dogs value, to too easy.

Neil

gpblitz wrote:

Neil wrote:Actually, I have found as many judges that are, as you say, hard a$$, and mark dogs down for nonsensical things as not responding immediately, or taking a step to mark a bird,

IMO a dog should not have to take a step iforward if the bird is shot out in front of the dog or to the side. If a bird flys back behind the dog and the dog has to spin to mark the fall and takes a step forward in spinning I don't think a dog should be hooked up for the in fraction. Sometimes we don't give enough credit to the judges. Thank them always. I would rather have a judge judge my dog tough then to allow a pass on sloppy work.

You might be right about taking a step but the other side is what does it harm if the dog thought it could judge the fall better by taking that step? It didn't offer to chase or do anything else to harm the quality of the hunt by trying to mark a fall in my opinion.

Ezzy

I would ask judges why they want you to honor before you have found a bird :roll:

snips wrote:I would ask judges why they want you to honor before you have found a bird :roll:

what is the difference if the dog backs before he has a find or after? I would think you do it when the opportunity arises.

Judge made me honor once and it drug out forever...Then time was short and did not find a bird...But I had an honor!!!!!

Ezzy wrote

You might be right about taking a step but the other side is what does it harm if the dog thought it could judge the fall better by taking that step? It didn't offer to chase or do anything else to harm the quality of the hunt by trying to mark a fall in my opinion.

I miss the time before the "excitement hop" was allowed, as it opened the door to the standard slipping as much as they have.

One man's "judge the fall better by taking that step" is another man's "controlled break". Guess I've never seen a case where one step improves the dog's ability to mark the fall where two steps wouldn't help even more.

I guess I've never understood why pointer folks accept the idea that "marking the fall" can only be accomplished by seeing the bird hit the ground. If a trained retriever can, without moving an inch, mark the fall of a bird at 300+ yards and then line the retrieve and step on the bird, a pointing dog sure doesn't need to move around every obstacle in his way to see a quail be dumped 40 yards away. Especially since most pointing dogs can be taught to mark effectively with correct training techniques; something few pointer trainers choose to do.

Guess I spend too much time hunting in the woods where I've seen far too many dogs line retrieves after not taking a step, to believe a dog needs to move around a visual obstacle in the middle of a hunt test field all that often.

IMO our dogs are capable of more than we ask of them. If we are improving the breeds like we all say we are, then standards should be rising and not falling.

JMO,
Dave

not a question but....

"Thanks for taking a look at my dog."

Dave,

Whereas I agree our dogs are capable of much more than we ask, standing like a statue has never seemed nearly as important as demonstrating the ability to find wild birds were they available, and about 12 other things that go with it, like drive, stamina, intelligence, use of the wind, etc.

I have found even inexperienced judges can evaluate two things; 1. if a dog moves any at all, regardless of why he may need to, 2. how far the dog is from the judge without regard how far he is from the handler.

Now I do as you say, I train them not to move, but I don't judge that way, there are just too many things more important. You see steady to wing and shot was never meant as a degree of difficulty thing like in gymnastics, but only for safety. All the written rules allow a dog to move to mark the bird, and until just recently so did the unwritten judging standards. Now we have some judges considering if a dog lets down after the flush and shot as the handler goes to release him. What does that have to do with a dog's job?

Hi folks. I am going to try and get this thread back on track with the following comments. First and foremost the original question was directed at HUNT TESTS not field trials. That being said I have the following comments to further that discussion. First and foremost before you can go asking questions you have to at least have read the rules of the event. That being said you then realize that the dog is judged on different categories depending on what level Hunt Test you are entering your dog in. For a Junior level Hunt Test you are judged in 4 categories: Hunting, Bird Finding Ability, Pointing, and Trainability Ability. For the Senior and Master level Hunt Tests you are judged in 6 categories: Hunting, Bird Finding Ability, Pointing, Trainability, Retrieving, and Honoring. Further, after reading the rules of a Hunt Test you quickly realize that the different categories of a Hunt Test are judged differently from entry level to top level. So now after having read the rules of the game it becomes easier to formulate the questions. We who have run dogs in the different levels of Hunt Tests have all had experiences where something has gone astray during a Hunt Test. I can tell you stories that would curl your hair about what happened during a Hunt Test that are not covered in the rules of a Hunt Test or where the judge was totally wrong. However, that being said there are still things that can be done during the Hunt Test that show your dog to its best. First and foremost you need to work with the other handler since you both need each other. For one, keep the verbal commands to a minimum and at low level. Nothing is more distracting to a brace dog than someone who is blowing a whistle constantly or yelling at their dog. Before entering a particular level make sure that in your mind your dog can meet the stated requirements of the level of Hunt Test you have entered. That is if the requirements for Senior Hunt Test states that for Retrieving a dog must bring the bird promptly to hand, your dog does so in your mind. Now when in a Hunt Test you encounter a situation where you think the dog did such a thing and the Judge thinks differently then you have a basis for a question. So what I guess I am saying is that the questions that are to be asked are phrased such that they quote what the standard says and what happened. Note also that what the handler thinks he sees is not always what the judge thinks he sees. So all the forgoing having been said what question would you ask a judge.

Please note that none of what I have said so far deals with the credentials of the Judge. That is because if your dog does all the requirements within the stated parameters then there is no question as to the dogs meeting the requirements. It is the gray areas of the requirements that lead to confusion. So you as a trainer need to train beyond what a particular test requirement states. For instance if it is necessary for you to run around and out of sight of your dog to flush the bird will your dog remain staunch and not move? You are limited by the number of scenarios that you as a trainer can imagine. What happens if you fall down while flushing the bird? Etc. This discussion is valid for each of the categories judged at each of the levels of the Hunt Test.

Hopefully this will help focus the questions that are generated and not the comments.