Gun Dog Forum

I know this is going to sound completely silly to all of those who are experienced with AKC Field Trials, but I want to make sure I'm understanding this right.

Okay, so say a GSP club is hosting a FT event. That means that any pointing breed can enter, yes? And when a Retriever club hosts, does that mean that only rets can enter?

I know the world of AKC conformation in and out, and could explain anything, but field trials are a whole new world to me. I don't plan on entering one ANYTIME soon, but would like to go to a few and see how things are done and to hopefully meet people who could help me, since I live in BFE.

Ok your almost there...

You have pointing breed field trials which are hosted by a gsp club. They usually allow all pointing breeds to enter. This weekend I'm going to a ft hosted by a Brittany club and some stakes are limited to breed specific britts only. Everything is listed on the premium.

Now retriever trials I don't know jack about but everything should be listed in the premium.

Pointing dog trials are just that for any pointing breed that is AKC registered. A retrieving trial is based for retrieving dogs. There are a few clubs around that let any dog in the game and they don't have to be registered with organization. There is a club in AZ. that actually lets so called pointing labs compete in the venue. Can't do that with AKC. Either way field trials can and are very costly and a whole lot of fun.

Jenna wrote:I know this is going to sound completely silly to all of those who are experienced with AKC Field Trials, but I want to make sure I'm understanding this right.

Okay, so say a GSP club is hosting a FT event. That means that any pointing breed can enter, yes? And when a Retriever club hosts, does that mean that only rets can enter?

I know the world of AKC conformation in and out, and could explain anything, but field trials are a whole new world to me. I don't plan on entering one ANYTIME soon, but would like to go to a few and see how things are done and to hopefully meet people who could help me, since I live in BFE.

Basically, you need to read the premium or look up the event on the AKC website. Some clubs hold FTs that are breed specific: if you don't have that particular type of dog you are restricted to certain events or cannot enter at all.

Pax,

Thanks, everyone!

You are going to have to learn about field trials the same way you did shows. I doubt you knew it inside and out and could explain anything at your first show.

Go to a few, ask questions, read the rules, buy books, subscribe to the Field, join a breed club, try to find a friends or a training group.

There is as much to learn in performance events as in conformation, and it is as easy to pick up.

Good luck,

Neil

The AKC lists the breeds eligible to participate in each type of trial or test in their description of events and in the rule books. For example, standard and minature poodles are allowed in Retriever Hunt Tests and Airedales are allowed in Spaniel Hunt Tests. Pointing Breed Field Trials may be breed specific or open to all pointing breeds, very much like All Breed or Specialty conformation shows. Some trials restrict one or more stakes to a specific breed. The premium must make this designation. Your best bet to find an event is to check the AKC online, as the Gazette does not keep up with the listings.

Jenna:

You'll find some of the information here deceiving. That is, all AKC pointing dog trials are NOT open to all pointing breeds. Most brittany trials in our area are closed to other pointing breeds. The reasoning/excuse is that they need an all britt major towards their championship. They justify this by closing the majority of their stakes/trials to britts only.

Most clubs in our area cannot afford to operate in this manner and will open all if not most of their stakes to all pointing breeds. Read the premium very carefully.

Justin

Buckeye_V wrote:Jenna:

You'll find some of the information here deceiving. That is, all AKC pointing dog trials are NOT open to all pointing breeds. Most brittany trials in our area are closed to other pointing breeds. The reasoning/excuse is that they need an all britt major towards their championship. They justify this by closing the majority of their stakes/trials to britts only.

Most clubs in our area cannot afford to operate in this manner and will open all if not most of their stakes to all pointing breeds. Read the premium very carefully.

Justin

Truth is that the Brittany trials that are closed to other breeds is because they have as many and sometimes more Brits entered than they can run in a weekend. Members of the club putting the trials on get upset when they can't enter their own trial.

You will find in the areas of the country where they do not get a full entry of Brits they have opened them up to other breeds and every year there seems to be additional ones opened.

Ezzy

Ezzy:

Truth is I have judged their closed trials and know that is not true. They do not have as many entrants was we do at ours. :roll: :roll:

I don't mind helping them out, but I know the true story around here.

Justin

It really depends on the area. In some states, Brittany trials have more Brittanys than they know what to do with. In others, not so much.
Florida falls into the latter category. If the lcoal Brit club didn't open their trial, they wouldn't have enough entries to hold it.

phermes1 wrote:It really depends on the area. In some states, Brittany trials have more Brittanys than they know what to do with. In others, not so much.
Florida falls into the latter category. If the lcoal Brit club didn't open their trial, they wouldn't have enough entries to hold it.

Thats the way it happens. Out west you will see a lot of them are open and now more along the east coast are opening theirs too. Here in the midwest they are still quite crowded. Last year we had 110 Brits entered in our walking trial.

In one way it would be nice to run against other breeds but I also think we all are trying to compete with the pointers instead of judging our breeds against the standard they were bred for. And that isn't particularly good.

Ezzy

I think this post is going to turn south in a hurry, so I am not going to respond to your last comment about being judged like a pointer.

If you want to go that route, then start another post.

All I can say is I judge what is in front of me. That is what a field trial is for. Put the best dog up of that day. I judge complete package. Period.

Justin

Justin,

I wasn't commenting on your judging or anyone else's for that matter but just the advantages and disadvantages of running one breed against another. I think there are both that I have seen over the years.

Ezzy

There are more advantages for the DOGS by running with other breeds, in my opinion.

Justin

Ezzy,

I think what Justin is alluding to is at some of the Brit Ft's that are open to APB, and have Brit people judging the senior stakes, you sometimes see the best Brit getting the nod...over the best dog. It is a not so veiled effort to "protect" the major from going to a non-Brit. It may not be the case, but as with most people...their perception is their reality.

Wyndancer wrote:Ezzy,

I think what Justin is alluding to is at some of the Brit Ft's that are open to APB, and have Brit people judging the senior stakes, you sometimes see the best Brit getting the nod...over the best dog. It is a not so veiled effort to "protect" the major from going to a non-Brit. It may not be the case, but as with most people...their perception is their reality.

I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to Brit trials in MN. Let's not beat around the bush.

Clark

Wyndancer wrote:Ezzy,

I think what Justin is alluding to is at some of the Brit Ft's that are open to APB, and have Brit people judging the senior stakes, you sometimes see the best Brit getting the nod...over the best dog. It is a not so veiled effort to "protect" the major from going to a non-Brit. It may not be the case, but as with most people...their perception is their reality.

Could be but I guess I haven't seen it here. See a lot of gsp people judging the Brits and vice versa. But I can sure see how it could.

Ezzy

Ezzy,

Note I said when Brit folks are judging. I think Clark will agree with me, that when "other" breed judges are asked...the "best Brit" thing goes out the window. As I understand it, a long since passed local Brit fella, Bob Heinel (sp?) was in the loop when this "a Brit needs a major at a Brit FT" thing started. And before he died, he regretted being part of the force that brought it to light.

It's ok...I look at the judges, I decide....sometimes I don't care what the judges think...in fact as of late, most of the time I'm running the dog for me.

on edit.

I got to thinking about this a little deeper. Maybe this Brit only FT thing isn't really helpful in terms of judging either. I mean, look, if all you go to as a competitor is Brit FT's, how deep is your knowledge...Brittany deep? Last fall I entered a dog in either GD or AA stake...Brit FT. I looked the judges up on the AKC site. The fella had only ever judged at Brit FT's. Is that good for the sport, and the dogs?

Thank you Dan.

If all you ever see or compete against are the same dogs, over and over - how does that make you OR your dog any better? Aren't we all trying to improve all of our breeds? I don't ever hear anybody saying that "so and so breed" is just fine they way they are. Everybody wants more style, or a little more independance or more biddability, and so on.

I love to run AND judge at all breed trials. Why? I can see how my dogs and I match up. I get to learn more. I get to compare more.

Don't take this as being argumentative. I just feel that more narrow of a picture we see, the less we see ( a Yogi-ism ).

Justin

Agreed.

One of the best things a person can do is get out of their home area and see what else is out there.

ezzy333 wrote:

phermes1 wrote:It really depends on the area. In some states, Brittany trials have more Brittanys than they know what to do with. In others, not so much.
Florida falls into the latter category. If the lcoal Brit club didn't open their trial, they wouldn't have enough entries to hold it.

Thats the way it happens. Out west you will see a lot of them are open and now more along the east coast are opening theirs too. Here in the midwest they are still quite crowded. Last year we had 110 Brits entered in our walking trial.

In one way it would be nice to run against other breeds but I also think we all are trying to compete with the pointers instead of judging our breeds against the standard they were bred for. And that isn't particularly good.

Ezzy

Ezzy,

The britt trials I have been to out west have the open broke dogs stakes closed and puppy/derby and Am open most of the time, it seem like they do this to get pros to enter and when the pros don't show they get tanked. I do know in NM & AZ there are 5 britt clubs and they used to have open entry but started closing entries over 10 years ago. NM can not fill their trials and AZ has had to open theirs up to get enough entries to run the trials the past couple years.

I have a friend who just judged one of their AA championships this month and he said they had 2 All Age dogs, 2 Shooting Dogs and 20 Gun Dogs entered. I do not know the workings of the ABC but what are they getting from closing their trials? If you have to run against the best dogs no matter what breed and you beat them it sure make you feel better and you improve your breed. I agree with Justin, you need to improve the breed by showing you can beat all comers.

It is up to the local club to open their entries. And my point was it is largely based on need. If there plenty of Brits wanting in then they tended to keep them closed. But in recent years there are more and more being opened as the numbers were down.

As you will note, I did not take sides as to whether it is good or not as I still think there are advantages in both. Maybe where I get off the beaten path is I have never thought that trials are the only way to judge how good a dog is. Plus I also tend to look more at how good of a Brit or a GSP instead of how they compare to each other, though like I also said it is fun to compete with the other breeds occasionally.

You all are going to find it hard to argue with me since I am open on the subject and probably will be for years to come since there are many advantages to each format. But we all have to agree that the most important thing is that the clubs do what is necessary to get enough dogs so they can afford to sponsor the trials for everyone that wants to have a place to run their dog.

Ezzy

Ezzy,

At the end of the day, I guess I can admit, I'm more than a little envious of the success of the Brit FT juggernaut. I can only imagine the depth of the breeding pool if GS's had those numbers. I really don't care that Brit FT's are or aren't closed to others breeds....I just want the judging to be on the up and up when I'm allowed to run a dog in one.

Jenna I am sorry this has gotten way off course here, but I have to say my side of it.

People try to lump things into one group when things are very different across the board. Here in my area we will have 160 150 dogs in our trials. We do sometimes open our gundog stakes as we have a pro that has pointers, setters, and shorthairs along with his brittanys. Most the time our judges are local judges that don't own brittanys.

My understanding on the closed to Brittany only stakes comes from when our dogs first came over the brittanys were terrible and could not compete against any other breed so closed trials were started. I do go and have had some success at other breed trials here locally.

On breed bias it seems brittanys always get the finger pointed towards them for some reason. I think there is breed bias in any breed. I don't like to see a pointer win at a Brittany trial but if I'm judging and the pointer did the best well he will win. At one of our local Brittany club trials last fall our gun dog stake was open. A shorthair pro came and ran some dogs. At the end he was super mad as he thought he had won it. He said quote " that's why I never come to these d@*n trials" in reference to Brittany breed bias trials!!!. One judge owns shorthairs the other vizslas but he assumed breed bias as it was a Brittany club. My point is that it is what it is... here where I compete and judge best dog wins regardless of breed or club.

Robbie

Haha no worries, Robbie!

I'm enjoying reading all of this. It's interesting to me to find that the hunting folk are just as opinionated as the conformation folk!