Killdeer Plains AAA trial ???

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:42 pm

My buddy just forwarded me a deal that said the NGSPA AAA championship at Killdeer Plains was terrible and thus declared a shooting dog championship with winners named...what the ??? I've never heard of such a thing - changing the stake to fit the performance?? Is this true? Say it ain't so...

Doug Favor
www.hbv.netkennel.com

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:44 am

Doug,

I believe it becomes a shooting dog stake, not a championship. In effect, the judges withheld the championship and named the two best dogs they had.

It's my understanding that this is perfectly allowable in AFTCA/FDSB stakes, and has been done before.

FWIW,
Dave

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:34 am

Huh...never heard of such a thing. I've heard of withholding the regional title and awarding up to 3 placements for the named stake but never changing the type of stake...?

Doug Favor

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:33 pm

a new one on me also. what i have read is that the course was set up very poorly. sounds like this became apparent in the first or second brace, so they changed the stake.

Mary · Post by **Mary** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:38 pm

This can happen in both AKC and AF if the judges do not feel there is a performance worthy of being named Champion. If this happens the placements are awarded as a week end stake and the word Championship is dropped.
I saw this happen at the AKC Pointer National Open Championship.
Mary

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:27 pm

Mary,

The only difference is this case is the championship started as an Amateur All Age stake. Judges didn't have championship-quality AA runs so they dropped the championship and awarded shooting dog placements.

There is some disagreement about whether this is allowable in AKC stakes or not; there is nothing in the rule book that suggests that it is.

John,

It's my understanding that they didn't change the stake while it was running. All dogs were run as AA dogs.

Dave

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:25 am

In AFTCA Nat'l Am. events - a champion must be named even if it is the "best of the worst" so to speak. RU do not have to be named.

Yah, it sounds like the courses were terrible and made for a terrible experience. Dogs were good but tough to show. Was this a new trial/new course???

Mary · Post by **Mary** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:41 pm

Dave
"There is some disagreement about whether this is allowable in AKC stakes or not; there is nothing in the rule book that suggests that it is. "
I would think the judges in AKC are justified in with holding the championship title under the rules that say first place should be withheld if there is no dog worthy of Championship points. The AKC Pointer Championship I spoke of earlier was several years ago and it was not to my knowledge challanged by AKC. Several people were talking about it at a recent week end trial, with the agreement being that the judges did the right thing.

Withholding the Championship placement is allowed in NGSPA. I understand the trial was run under NGSPA. Seems to me they would have been better served to not name a champion rather than change the name of the stake.

"The declaration of a champion and/or runner-up is to be at the discretion of the judges." taken from Chapter 2 article 2 section 3 of NGSPA running rules and regs at least the most current copy I have.

Mary

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:55 am

Championships are withheld in both AKC and NGSPA if the dogs running that day do not meet the standard. There have been many examples. In last year's NGSPA Sharptail Ch., for example, this was done. And the AA Championship has been withheld at least once at the GSPCA Nationals.

But Doug is right, the downgrading of an entire stake from All Age to Shooting Dog is a new one on me. Not having been there, but only having heard how the course was, I am going to guess no AA dogs got around and the only dogs that did, gave performances that looked like shooting dog, so they made it a shooting dog stake in order to be able to award some placements.

Usually, these things reflect some circumstances that made the trial difficult to run normally. At last year's Sharptail, speargrass made the organizers limit the running of the AA to courses that had already been used for the shooting dog stakes, and in a wild bird trial that makes it difficult to find birds cause they get run off the course and do not return. So no dogs got around with birds. Sometimes heat and weather will do it. Judges can only judge what they see, not what they think they might have seen, so if conditions prevent a good stake, championships are withheld.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:48 am

Championships are withheld in both AKC and NGSPA if the dogs running that day do not meet the standard.

Of course they are John. What I've not seen happen at an AKC event is what Mary described:

This can happen in both AKC and AF if the judges do not feel there is a performance worthy of being named Champion. If this happens the placements are awarded as a week end stake and the word Championship is dropped.
I saw this happen at the AKC Pointer National Open Championship.

Placements were NOT withheld at this AKC event; only the championship title. Have you ever seen that before at an AKC event?

Mary, do you remember what year that took place?

FWIW,
Dave

Mary · Post by **Mary** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:05 pm

First place was withheld in the 1999 APC National Championship and at the same trial second place was withheld in the Amt stake. I attended the trial and was told that since they withheld first in the open stake it would not be a championship stake. I googled APC and found the site for that trial. On that site they called it a National Championship Stake. Guess what we were told and what transpired are different. Here is the site.
http://www.americanpointerclub.org/resu ... 1999.shtml
AKC's event site does not go back but 4 years so can not check to see what AKC called the stake.

Sorry for my confusion just going by what was said at the trial and what others who were discussing this recently remembered.

As to changing the name of the stake from All Age to Shooting Dog never heard of that.

Mary