1st AKC ALL Breed Coverdog Trial 10-28, 29, 30-2011

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:09 am

Just wanted to give a heads up that the 1st AKC All Breed Coverdog Trial will be held at the Historic Marienville Coverdog Trial Grounds in the Allegheny National Forest in Marienville, PA on October 28th, 29th and 30th by the Oak Ridge Pointing Dog Club. The Event is AKC Approved and a Premium is now available and will be up shortly at Oak Ridge PDC Events Page http://www.oakridgepointers.com/; or you can email me for a copy. A HUGE THANX goes out to the established Coverdog Pointer and Setter guys for helping us make this Event a reality!

This Trial will be open to ALL Pointing Breeds and Judged to a Coverdog Standard. We have taken great pains to get dedicated Grouse Hunters/Trial Judges and/or experienced Coverdog Judges for this Event. It is a Non-Retrieving Event and all birds encountered will be blanked. This is a Points Trial with AKC Points and Rosette's awarded to Winning/Placing dogs.

Bring your Shorthairs, Wirehairs, Vizslas, Brit's, whatever Competitive Pointing Breed you have, including AKC/Dual Reg'd Pointers and Setters and come out for what we hope will be a great 3 day Event with a large turn out.

Gundog will be (8)1 hour Braces per day, on Grouse and Woodcock on a Continuous Course with no throw down birds, except for the potential to come across Quail put down for the Puppy and Derby Stakes.

Entries are limited to a Maximum of 48 Gundogs, 30 Derbies and 30 Puppies, so please don't hesitate if interested, as I expect this Trial will fill quickly. Don't have a dog to run, but would be interested in coming out and watching? Please do, by all means!

Once again, a HUGE THANX to those established Coverdog folks that helped to make this a reality!

Judges are:
William Fazio ...Open Puppy
Diane Fazio ...Open Puppy
Brian Sullivan...Open Gun Dog
Curt Fry ...Open Gun Dog
Tim Perschke...Open Derby
Tim Tufts...Open Derby

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:42 am

Can Sullivan WALK that far!!!!!!!!!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:00 am

It will be Judged from horse back and at Judges discretion. A Wrangler will be available for those that would like rent a horse to ride braces, as well.

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:11 pm

I think I might make the trip out. I think its about 3 hrs from me. Ive never been to a trial before.
Are these coverdog trials much if a spectator sport? My dogs not ready for this yet.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:45 pm

How is this type of event judged? If you have a bull in the china shop type of dog which spooks the grouse out of cover into trees yet locks up on sent is it faulted? If a bird is heard leaving cover and dog does not stop is it picked up on the presumption that is busted the bird? Never been to one of these events but it sound interesting. What is expected in Puppy and Derby stakes? Is it truly AKC field trial rules just on wild birds?

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:50 pm

RnB,

Gallery are always welcome to follow along and watch. You can rent and ride a horse, or walk behind and follow. The Handlers will be on foot, so it will be a walking pace.

Ken,
This will be Judged to a Coverdog Standard, where the ears will be telling the Judges more than the eyes. In this case, they WILL be Judging what they can't see.
The Bull in the China shop would be scored as a Stop to Flush IMO, same as in a regular Trial where a bird wild flushes, or bumps and the dog stops. In the event that the dog did not stop, I think the presumption would have to be that the dog failed to Stop to Flush, but as in any Trial, it would all depend on the situation and how the Judges saw or heard it. The dog could have been completely out of reasonable range of the bird to have ever seen or heard it for the Stop to Flush and it may be looked upon as a non-event.

Puppy and Derby would be the same as any AKC Trial, same requirements, etc...., however, there WILL be throw down Quail for the Puppies and Derbies to insure potential for contact. Gundog's will have to work for their birds, which will be solely Grouse and Woodcock, with the potential that one could end up with Quail contact due to the birds being used in Puppy and Derby. No birdwork, no placement, that simple. It IS an AKC Wild Bird Trial, something that is sorely lacking in ALL Registries these days.

For information on existing AF Coverdog Trials, may I suggest:
http://fosteraward.com/
for some good reading.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:42 pm

Way to go Bruce I know you have been working on making this trial happen for quite a while.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:49 pm

Bruce, thanks for the info. Sorry to ask more questions. When you say the event will be "Judged to a Coverdog Standard" what does this mean. Does AKC have such a standard and if so where do I go to read about it. You reference American Field stuff. Does this mean their rule will be used for an AKC event? This whole thing intrigues me. I will be there for this event. I am just trying to get info so I can prevent preventable mistakes on my part. You know me, I am easy going and I will go out of my way to play different games with my dogs.

jasonw99 · Post by **jasonw99** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:51 am

Coverdog trial entries are typically dominated by setters and pointers.

I have read some of the judging guidelines and they call for a high head and high tail. not sure how short tail breeds fit into that standard.

nice to see someone sees an oppurtunity to open things up a bit to include the short tail dogs.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:12 pm

I wish I lived closer as I would be there in a heartbeat!

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:40 pm

Best of luck with this new format! I hope it goes over well. There should be plenty of dogs and owners in the northeast that would want to come play.
Fuzz

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:47 pm

Thanx Kindly Andy, but I can't take all the credit. It was the folks at Oak Ridge grabbing the proverbial Bull, putting their weight behind it and supporting it, that has brought it to fruition. Without them, it would still just be an idea in the back of mine and others minds.

Ken,
Judging dogs that can't, or SHOULDN'T be seen, has to be Judged differently than a typical AKC Gundog Stake, where the dogs are seen often enough to keep tabs of what they are doing and what they are up too. Think All Age dogs.... they should only ever be seen On Point. In a Coverdog Stake, that dog should be well to the front and hunting intelligently, which will put them out of sight 90+% or more of the brace in the cover of the Grouse woods and the only time they should be seen, is when On Point, Honoring or at a Stop to Flush. The rest of the time, the Judges/Handlers will have to use their ears to listen to the dogs bell, to determine what they are doing, where they are going and if they are hunting intelligently to the front, or just out for a run in the woods. The bell will also tell on a dog that is out their going on Point and then ripping the birds, or stealing a point, or......, but for the dog to be competitive, they MUST be out of sight which requires a bell for locating and a dog that is honest as the day is long. Truly a test of a Wild Bird dog and not too terribly different from what an All Age/Shooting Dog Handler would expect of their dogs out on the Prairie's on Wild Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Huns, etc.... An HONEST dog. Their dogs are out of sight and the Handler's have to find them On Point in an over simplified explanation, which means that dog HAS to be honest to be competitive. Same effect here, only you will be able to hear what the dogs are up to. Ultimately, Judging will be to an AKC Gundog Standard, but applied quite differently than a typical AKC Gundog Stake, thus our use of Experienced Coverdog Judges that are Licensed with both AF and AKC and AKC Trial Judges that are died in the wool Grouse Hunters. Again, we are Judging what we CAN'T see. How many times have you heard Judges say they can't Judge what they can't see? In this venue they will HAVE TO Judge what they can't see, but can hear. What they will be Judging that they do see, is bird work once Points are established, but we both know Trials are not Won on bird work alone.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:52 pm

Thanks Bruce. Just learned something I did not know. Dogs run with bells. Therefore I will bring one. Are beeper colars allowed? Are GPS collars allowed?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:30 pm

With the heavy cover does the amount of time the dog is not seen but still in contention go up? I'm new to trailing and have seen time limits on stakes where if the dog isn't seen for 5,8 minutes or so it is no longer in contention.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:13 am

The trials I have been to beeper collars were not allowed. most of them allowed garmins but only after you pick up. The judge carries the receiver and if you ask for it you are done. Your dog will not be out of contention if you can't see it, but it will be if you cannot hear it for an extended period of time, there is however no magic number on how long the dog can be gone as far as I know. Bring a good bell, you will be suprised how far you can hear a good one, last weekend I verified I could hear one of the flewelling bells which can be bought on dogs unlimited from over 360 yards in the woods according to the garmin. Lion Country's North Woods is one of the loudest around as well and the Canadian low tone isn't bad either. Actually bring a few good bells, you don't want to be braced with someone wearing the same bell.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:35 am

Good word!!!.....out of sight and found on point.....what kind of bells are folks using....I assume this is in pretty open canopy cover....where I hunt grouse, on any kind of windy day and you can't here a bell beyond 75 yards. Is this a groomed course? I gotta see one of these sometime and how it works.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:13 am

Winchey is spot on. No Beeper Collars are permitted and use of the Tracker or Garmin is an automatic "You're done", same as with any normal Field Trial, once you ask the Judge for the receiver. Also spot on with "out of sight and no magic number", as the dogs SHOULDN'T be seen the majority of the brace and should only be heard and located by the bell. A louder bell is recommended for a big going dog, as it will be the only way you'll locate the dog while remaining in contention and being able to keep track of where the dog last was to get to it should the bell go silent(as in, On Point).

To be honest and from an insanely rabid Grouse Hunters point of view, if I am the Judge and I can see your dog the entire brace, it isn't winning even if it is the ONLY dog that gets around clean and has bird work. I'd with hold 1st Place and award it a lower placement. To do otherwise reduces the credibility of the Stake and the overall Event's purpose, which is to identify the VERY BEST Grouse Dog. The best Pointing Breed Grouse Dogs are not meant to be seen the entire time, period. This is JUST MY PERSONAL VIEW, but spending over 50 days a year minimum, for the past 25 years has definitely colored my opinion of what makes a GREAT Grouse Dog.

JKP,
It is Grouse Cover, plain and simple. Thick, dense, grown up successional cover. We're not going to find enough Grouse for a fair Trial, in any other type of cover that is marginal. These are Wild Birds and live where only Wild Birds do. I don't know what you're home covers are like, but mine are difficult for a dog to navigate, let alone myself. If I can stumble and not have a sapling stand me right back up, or a grape vine catch me and keep me from ever hitting the ground, I'm not where the Grouse are. The bells Winchey mentioned are good ones, I hear the Sunkhaze(sp?) bells are finding quite a bit of favor as well and know my largest Swiss Bell can be heard 100 yards and more easily. Here again, if I'm in Grouse cover, I can't see 100 yards. Heck, I can't see 20 yards!!! LOL!

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:26 am

Question; what is the typical/expected range of a dog in trials like these?

I get what you're saying about not wanting to see the dog the entire brace, but from the 1 time I went grouse hunting, in that cover, the dogs were out of sight in no time.It didn't require much distance for them to disappear, either.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:11 pm

Paul,

This is going to be just my HIGHLY subjective opinion, but I would expect the most competitive dogs to range in the neighborhood of 100-300 yards. That is not to say a 75 yard dog that is producing lots of good bird work is not going to Win. Quite the contrary, if the 75 yarder is producing lots of good, clean work and the 200-300 yarder's are producing nothing, then IMHO the 75 yarder is going up. What I personally, do NOT want to see, is a dog that is hunting at 25 yards the entire time. That just takes away from the purpose of having a Pointing Dog to begin with. A 25 yard dog is not going to find me any birds I wouldn't have found myself without a dog. Keep in mind please, this is just my opinion and may not reflect the same opinion of any Judges.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:33 pm

OK, thanks. I can see how 25 yards is way too close.
Question, though; do you regularly see dogs stick a point on a grouse 300 yards out and hold it until you get there? I've been grouse hunting exactly once, and they just don't seem to need too much reason to get outta there. Good lord were they skittish.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:51 pm

"I hear the Sunkhaze(sp?) bells are finding quite a bit of favor as well" The Sunkhaze and Flewelling bells are one in the same, they are made by Mike Flewelling and since they are custom made they all sound and carry different.

Phermes the top coverdogs more often then not will hold grouse for as long as it takes.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:23 pm

Winchey wrote:Phermes the top coverdogs more often then not will hold grouse for as long as it takes.

Cool.
I'm just as impressed that the bird doesn't decide to leave.

Those things were maddening when we went after them. We had dogs with zero grouse experience, I'm sure that didn't help either.

Either way, one of these days I have to catch one of these trials, they sound very cool.

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:14 am

+1

phermes1 wrote:I wish I lived closer as I would be there in a heartbeat!

Dirtysailor · Post by **Dirtysailor** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:26 am

Run what you brung, talk is cheap and easy. Who ain't afraid? Don't worry grouse don't bite for you flat landers. LOL.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Bruce, upon returning home from my fun trip I find I have a conflict with your event. As much as I would like to go I have a long standing commitment to guide a friend and his son on hunts at a local hunting preserve. Unfortunately I find out that he has chosen that weekend to take his son hunting. If I am unable to convince him to change the booking, I will have to reluctantly back out of my participation of the event. It would have been fun trying a new kind of event.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:29 pm

This is going to be just my HIGHLY subjective opinion, but I would expect the most competitive dogs to range in the neighborhood of 100-300 yards. That is not to say a 75 yard dog that is producing lots of good bird work is not going to Win. Quite the contrary, if the 75 yarder is producing lots of good, clean work and the 200-300 yarder's are producing nothing, then IMHO the 75 yarder is going up. What I personally, do NOT want to see, is a dog that is hunting at 25 yards the entire time. That just takes away from the purpose of having a Pointing Dog to begin with. A 25 yard dog is not going to find me any birds I wouldn't have found myself without a dog. Keep in mind please, this is just my opinion and may not reflect the same opinion of any Judges

That's the thing about wild bird trials, they must produce birds. It's about finding birds and handling them cleanly. The flip side is that under foot dogs will not produce the birds that a 100 yard dog will.

Brian

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:24 pm

Just wanted to give this one more bump and add a link to the Oak Ridge Coverdog Trial Premium: http://www.oakridgepointers.com/images/ ... r_Dog1.pdf

Here's an opportunity to prove your Continental's or whatever Pointing Breed you might own in a AKC Coverdog Stake. I seriously doubt you'll be competing against any/many Pro's and it will be largely Amateurs. Gundog will be solely Grouse and Woodcock, the Courses have been re-configured to insure this and that no Quail will be available to the Gundogs, while Puppy and Derby will have the guarantee of throwdown Quail.

The young dogs under 2 years running Puppy and Derby don't have to be steady, so if nothing else, it's a good chance to run them in cover with a pretty solid chance of guaranteed bird contact and a chance at AKC FC Points.

Should the Club not get the entries required to at least break even, this will go the way of the DoDo Bird and the guys that own the "Coonhounds" and "Swamp Collies" will have no one to blame but themselves when the Pointer and Setter guys get on them about not being proven on Grouse.
No more excuses folks, here's your chance!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:38 pm

The following is from Scott Jordan, President of Oak Ridge and Chair of the Event:

All,

I wanted to send everyone a note about the coverdog trial at the end of the month. We have run the numbers and have determined that as of now we are eliminating the puppy stake, due to lack of entrants.

We will make the call Friday if we will cancel or not. Based on the costs and in the interest of the club we will not run the event if it will not break even. That number at this point is to have 20 Gundogs and 8 derbies signed up for the trial. At this point we have 9 Gundogs and 3 derbies. If the numbers are not in place by Friday we will not hold the event and choose to do this a week ahead of time to allow the entrants to possibly enter other events over the same weekend.

I would ask any of you that may want to enter to do it now so we get an accurate count and to please send this message along to those whom you have advertised the event with.

Scott

Seems there is a sudden lack of interest.....

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:56 pm

Hope it works out, I think most will enter last minute. Puppy numbers usually are low for various reasons. Keep your fingers crossed.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:58 pm

As they say, "the Show must go on" and go on it will. Looking to be very close to a 4 point Major in OGD, if not already.
Get those entries in, it closes on Tuesday!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:03 pm

Nope, they sure haven't Howie. This will be the 1st. I've had pretty extensive communications with Doug Ljungren and more recently, Gary Sadler and as far as we know, it's never been done before as an AKC Event. If we can get the ball rolling and rolling right, it could hopefully lead to being a Dual Registered gig with both AKC and AF down the road, with multiple Events all over the NorthEast and MidWest, perhaps even the NorthWest? The fancy willing, it could eventually carry it's own National Event, who knows?

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:40 am

Bruce is it still on sent my entry in.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:25 pm

It's a go Frank! Looking to possibly make a 4 point Major out of it in Gundog, if not, it's definitely up to 3 points. Would love to see it make 4, but am just VERY happy that it's going to run at this point in time!

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:24 pm

AHGSP wrote:It's a go Frank! Looking to possibly make a 4 point Major out of it in Gundog, if not, it's definitely up to 3 points. Would love to see it make 4, but am just VERY happy that it's going to run at this point in time!

That is great!

Knightfarms · Post by **Knightfarms** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:21 am

I'm so bummed that I can't make it over this weekend to watch like I was planning, but I just looked at the weather and you guys lucked out; it'll be chilly but not really supposed to rain.

I can't wait to hear how it all pans out. Good luck to a smooth even and all the competitors!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:35 pm

Knightfarms wrote:I'm so bummed that I can't make it over this weekend to watch like I was planning, but I just looked at the weather and you guys lucked out; it'll be chilly but not really supposed to rain.

I can't wait to hear how it all pans out. Good luck to a smooth even and all the competitors!

Yep, the weather is looking about perfect and with winds out of the North tonight.......bring the Doodles down!

bhulisa · Post by **bhulisa** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:00 am

Good luck with this event! And good luck to all who entered

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:36 am

Bruce hope all goes well & the trial is a success. Good Luck !! to all participants

Just have fun & enjoy !!!

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:34 pm

gpblitz wrote:Waiting to hear the placements....

+1

jmsgunner · Post by **jmsgunner** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:22 am

My boy took 3rd in Derby.

That's all I know for placements for now. But congrats to everyone and a big thanks to Bruce and OPDC!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:41 am

Derby:
Ernie Lantiegne -Patches -Setter from N.Y.
Terry Glover/Ben Toth -Oscar -Setter from PA.
O:Jackie Secan H:Myself -Gunner -GSP from PA.
Ron Scmeider -Hannah -GSP from PA.

Gundog:
Ernie Lantiegne -Bandit -Setter from N.Y.
Ron Schmeider -Adolf -GSP from PA.
Bill Hensel -Atilla -GSP from PA. I think.
Nick Mellon -Ben -Setter from PA. I think

Weather Saturday was beyond horrid with absolutely no bird contacts for the dogs beyond wild flushes. LOTS of great dogs on the ground in that horrid weather that NEVER really had any chance to show what they could do. Saw lots of GREAT runs, lots of GREAT application, but the birds weren't in the playing mood and ya sure as heck can't blame "the Bird Planter" LOL! Yesterday morn was still a bit tough with a hard freeze making for tough scenting conditions early and the birds remaining tight until it began to warm a bit; when it started to get pretty busy for birds and dogs really started to show their talent at the end. Luck of the draw as they say and a big slap from "Ma Nature" on Saturday LOL!!! This was a huge learning curve being the first time run by any AKC Club and Oak Ridge did a great job of pulling it off, going from a simple idea to actually making it happen in about a 6 month time frame. HUGE, HUGE THANKS to the AF Coverdog regulars that stepped up to help with how they run their Events, guiding the braces through the courses(I believe Tim Perschke walked dam near every single brace as a guide! That's over 12 hours walking through TOUGH cover in 2 days folks!!!!) and just being available to help us in every way they could! I will say weather aside, it was still a great time with good conversation, fun banter, great companionship and lots of comments from serious Grouser's to the effect of preference for this type of Event and the hope it will continue in the future. That said, I expect/HOPE Oak Ridge Pointing Dog Club will be doing another; if not this Spring, then definitely next Fall.
For those that couldn't make it, you were missed and I sincerely hope you will make every effort to come out for future events and let's make this GROW!

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:20 pm

Congrats to all. I got the pic below from Ernie today.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 pm

Friends with Ernie Chris? How's his young dog "Patches" wound? He was braced with me in Derby and we had some very good conversation afterwards.

Howie, You trying to stir the pot with the Black GSP comment? For the record...that is a Black FC DK

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 pm

gpblitz wrote:Congrats to all placing dogs and owner/ handlers. A BIG HAND to the Oak Ridge Pointing Dog Club and all who work so hard making this trial happen. Looks like a black GSP got second place....

Probably only because he was running against dogs of other breeds though...

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:29 pm

Tim Perschke said ' You bred a Setter into that black GSP didn't you.Then i showed him the feather hair on the back end of his legs...

Congrats Ernie ...I scouted that brace, that setter had a Good run/Clean/ One find/ Not One non-productive....Birds were running hard ..Nice Dog!!!Dolph had Good run/one find /two non-productives back to back in a clear cut..could not produce the bird...Sat 1st brace Northen Cajin had a nice find 4ft up in a hemlock that blew over her head...If she would of stood she would of been in the dance.That was a hard one for any dog..5th brace divided find...Thier was birds running not sticking...It was rough..18 Good dogs showed up and you could tell this was not thier first Roadeo..I had a great time ...Hope we all can do this again!!!

...BIg Thanks to the AF Cover Dog crowd TimP,Bill,And Tim T and all...

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:57 pm

gpblitz wrote:
ACooper wrote:Probably only because he was running against dogs of other breeds though...
Maybe that Black Boy should get to know my little lady Cage some day

Sounds good.. You keep that idea

...It would be a honar to breed to your grouse dogs

1doogie · Post by **1doogie** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:51 pm

Big thanks to Oakridge for all the hard work! Lots of top notch pointing breed dogs. It was a blast and even though the weather was "for the birds" we all had a great time. Hope this is the beginning of a good thing with many more AKC coverdog trials to follow! Cant wait till next year!!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:13 pm

I'm thinking I need to talk to some of my friends in the Clubs up in the North East, say N.Y., CT., Mass., N.H. area and see if any of them have an interest in running one..........