Just got home from Nationals and my dog was a hunting machine(covered ground well+ 6 finds point-@shoot in less than 30 minutes)
Had a great time,but when I was packing to come home I ran accross the two judges who judged the trials.I asked what they were looking for and
was told style(paw up,tail up- bone straight at 90 degrees).
WELL, SOME(most) DONT HAVE IT... I said,then I was told of a surgery procedure that could be done to lift the tail higher......
CAN SOME ONE HELP ME OUT HERE? Is this fact or fiction?
Thanks,Gary
DOG TAILS
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icefire
tail is genetic and also has a little to do with how intense the dog is on any given find. foot up or not has to do with chance, the position of the dog when it hits the smell. style is nice but surgery is NOT the answer. breeding is the answer. If we start surgicly "fixing" our dogs for style then we are no better then the show folks.
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Colleen
Hey, guys, Biscuit is growing up really fast, but she's still kinda flat. The other little bitches at the park are making fun of her. The other day she asked me if she could get implants. What do you think I should tell her?
PS--Fletcher says he hates everyone on versatiledogs for saying he has an ugly point and no intensity. There's a forum I read, until I feel like crying because I have lost faith in the goodness of mankind. 90% of the people on that board are total jerks.
PS--Fletcher says he hates everyone on versatiledogs for saying he has an ugly point and no intensity. There's a forum I read, until I feel like crying because I have lost faith in the goodness of mankind. 90% of the people on that board are total jerks.
Question on dog tails
AS all have noticed openions are like A-holes we all have one,but the question still remains.
Since the birdless dog was declaired the champion,and the judge statement was he liked his run around like crazy style with the straight high tail makes me think that the persons comments concerning altered tails might be true.This person said that it was a minor operation to raise the tail or straighten one.
COME ON GUYS FESS UP,tell us what you know....Gary
Since the birdless dog was declaired the champion,and the judge statement was he liked his run around like crazy style with the straight high tail makes me think that the persons comments concerning altered tails might be true.This person said that it was a minor operation to raise the tail or straighten one.
COME ON GUYS FESS UP,tell us what you know....Gary
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Colleen
My seething sarcasm was obviously not duly noted, and failed to have its desired effect. Gary, are you truly considering putting your dog under the knife so his tail is higher on point? Have you read Phil's post on trying to condition a higher tail? Have you tried something like that first? It may take a lot longer, but it is a much more sane and humane way to get your dog's tail up higher. Oh, and Phil's soon-to-be wife is a vet, who I'm sure is capable of performing a surgery like that, but they choose to condition it into dogs who don't naturally do it. What does that tell you about the wiseness of having that surgery done?
I mean, really. I understand that judges give preference for style. But you know, not all dogs are going to be national field champions. If they were, the title would have no meaning. If your dog is otherwise a good hunter and good trialer, can you not be content with that and try again for a championship with another pup? And can you please clarify for me when a slight physical "defect" (though it's really not a defect, just a variation) became absolutely intolerable and unpardonable? And you were talking about pricing pups outta this dog, and how you won't be able to get $1500 per pup because of this. Would you feel justified in charging more for a pup whose sire/dam has 'style' that it got from having its tail mutilated?
I mean, really. I understand that judges give preference for style. But you know, not all dogs are going to be national field champions. If they were, the title would have no meaning. If your dog is otherwise a good hunter and good trialer, can you not be content with that and try again for a championship with another pup? And can you please clarify for me when a slight physical "defect" (though it's really not a defect, just a variation) became absolutely intolerable and unpardonable? And you were talking about pricing pups outta this dog, and how you won't be able to get $1500 per pup because of this. Would you feel justified in charging more for a pup whose sire/dam has 'style' that it got from having its tail mutilated?
Dog Tails
COLLEEN,you make very valid points.
The second question I asked the judge was which dog that you judged run( National Open and Futurity) would you breed your dog to...Answer was crisp an quick.....the Futurity dog,you couldn't go wrong.
If I breed to this dog and its tail has been altered what will I get?
You see, it's not about who wins this week, but what happens later on.If someone knows that this procedure is being performed
it would help.....gary
The second question I asked the judge was which dog that you judged run( National Open and Futurity) would you breed your dog to...Answer was crisp an quick.....the Futurity dog,you couldn't go wrong.
If I breed to this dog and its tail has been altered what will I get?
You see, it's not about who wins this week, but what happens later on.If someone knows that this procedure is being performed
it would help.....gary
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Kevin
Don't feel bad Colleen, your sarcasm didn't go unnoticed, I cracked a smile when I read it
Well...this is exactly the kind of thing that new parents dread...if I were you Colleen, I would have a sit down with biscuit and tell her that there are plenty of studs out there that will get with her even if she is flat, and not to listen to the other little bitches at the park. Those "other bitches" have been know to get around and probably have worms anywayHey, guys, Biscuit is growing up really fast, but she's still kinda flat. The other little bitches at the park are making fun of her. The other day she asked me if she could get implants. What do you think I should tell her?
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Katies Dad
Y'know what? I don't even get it when the win/loss comes down to the position of the tail. Who friggin cares?
In Europe they actually want the tails to be horizontal, not vertical. This slims the dog down into a more arrow-like shape, physically pointing where the bird is. As if the point of the dog's nose wasn't good enough.
In the US they want the tail at 12 o'clock, like for some reason you need a little bit of tail sticking up out of the weeds to know where your dog is. As if you don't keep an eye on your dog when he hunts and won't notice him lock up (ok, that might actually happen every once in awhile for a long-ranging dog, but how often is an inch of tail sticking out over the weeds going to be the thing that causes you to find him?)
Tail position, IMO, is overrated and has little to do with "style" and even less to do with "intensity." I'm not a FT judge though, and I may get a rude slap in the face once I enter Justus into some trials (maybe next year), but at least I know I'll have a dog that puts birds on the table. That's the most important thing to me anyway.
I mean, some years down the road I want to be telling my child or grandchild about my first bird dog and how he was such a pleasure to hunt over, how many birds he found, and have stories like that rather than "oh, he won this ribbon and this ribbon and this ribbon..."
In Europe they actually want the tails to be horizontal, not vertical. This slims the dog down into a more arrow-like shape, physically pointing where the bird is. As if the point of the dog's nose wasn't good enough.
In the US they want the tail at 12 o'clock, like for some reason you need a little bit of tail sticking up out of the weeds to know where your dog is. As if you don't keep an eye on your dog when he hunts and won't notice him lock up (ok, that might actually happen every once in awhile for a long-ranging dog, but how often is an inch of tail sticking out over the weeds going to be the thing that causes you to find him?)
Tail position, IMO, is overrated and has little to do with "style" and even less to do with "intensity." I'm not a FT judge though, and I may get a rude slap in the face once I enter Justus into some trials (maybe next year), but at least I know I'll have a dog that puts birds on the table. That's the most important thing to me anyway.
I mean, some years down the road I want to be telling my child or grandchild about my first bird dog and how he was such a pleasure to hunt over, how many birds he found, and have stories like that rather than "oh, he won this ribbon and this ribbon and this ribbon..."
- Steven
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
Gary, get over it! It was one judge, at one trial.
I have been trialing for over 25 yrs. I have never known anyone getting their dogs tails fixed. In the show ring, now that's a different story, but not in the field. It may happen, but I don't know any.
If your dog is a good one, if all else about him is great, then his tail carriage will be overlooked by his outstanding qualities. A tail is a tail, just one piece of the puzzle......
I have been trialing for over 25 yrs. I have never known anyone getting their dogs tails fixed. In the show ring, now that's a different story, but not in the field. It may happen, but I don't know any.
If your dog is a good one, if all else about him is great, then his tail carriage will be overlooked by his outstanding qualities. A tail is a tail, just one piece of the puzzle......
Dog Tails
Thanks, Fuzznut for the encouragement...But should the 2 things
mentioned becomes the major determaning factors for judgeing in the future then breeders will have no choice but to comply.
That said,HOW CAN ONE BE SURE WITCH DOG HAS OR HAVENT?
Like DNA only one stud out of 10,000 might posess a true 90*tail
and all others might be altered.If you expect puppies from a breeding with high tails and don't get any...,then the stud might have been altered.........and public is shafted.
I personally feel that this type judgeing conclusion is an isolated event or is it? I'm not fimilar with many of the Pointer judges and cannot imagine this to be a norm.....Gary
mentioned becomes the major determaning factors for judgeing in the future then breeders will have no choice but to comply.
That said,HOW CAN ONE BE SURE WITCH DOG HAS OR HAVENT?
Like DNA only one stud out of 10,000 might posess a true 90*tail
and all others might be altered.If you expect puppies from a breeding with high tails and don't get any...,then the stud might have been altered.........and public is shafted.
I personally feel that this type judgeing conclusion is an isolated event or is it? I'm not fimilar with many of the Pointer judges and cannot imagine this to be a norm.....Gary
so... you solution would be, never use a dog with a tail above 9:00 because it "may" have been altered?
In order to know or have a clue what type of puppies any stud or bitch will produce, one must have knowledge of it's pedigree, it's brothers and sisters, it's parents etc. If a higher tail is common in a bloodline, it's more apt to come through on future generations. If a horizontal tail is more common, that's probably what your going to expect. Do your homework before you make any conclusions.
A dogs pointing style is both man made and genetic. Weims, as adults, rarely have really high tails on point. I've seen some, but not many. Pointers, when coming from AF breedings will most always have a high tail, but not if coming from AKC breedings. I've seen and judged some decent Weims... but they ain't Pointers, and shouldn't be pointers. Different breeds. Different heritage, different genetics.
But just because I don't expect a Weim to run nor act like a pointer, doesn't mean that I will excuse a lack of drive in their work. Drive, not range. A dog doesn't have to be GONE to show drive, just as a dog doesn't have to point with it's tail to the sky to show style.
Gary, I just think you need some more hours in the saddle watching some of the good ones in your breed. And the good ones of other breeds as well,,,,, the more dogs you watch, the more you will learn and with luck begin to understand all of the differences.
For instance... I appreciate the all age dogs, but really don't want one. I'm not equiped to own and campaign a dog with that kind of power, but I sure can appreciate what they are, and what they do!
Best of luck with your youngster, learn to take wins and losses with a grain of salt. It's just a sport, and a hobby....not life and death.
In order to know or have a clue what type of puppies any stud or bitch will produce, one must have knowledge of it's pedigree, it's brothers and sisters, it's parents etc. If a higher tail is common in a bloodline, it's more apt to come through on future generations. If a horizontal tail is more common, that's probably what your going to expect. Do your homework before you make any conclusions.
A dogs pointing style is both man made and genetic. Weims, as adults, rarely have really high tails on point. I've seen some, but not many. Pointers, when coming from AF breedings will most always have a high tail, but not if coming from AKC breedings. I've seen and judged some decent Weims... but they ain't Pointers, and shouldn't be pointers. Different breeds. Different heritage, different genetics.
But just because I don't expect a Weim to run nor act like a pointer, doesn't mean that I will excuse a lack of drive in their work. Drive, not range. A dog doesn't have to be GONE to show drive, just as a dog doesn't have to point with it's tail to the sky to show style.
Gary, I just think you need some more hours in the saddle watching some of the good ones in your breed. And the good ones of other breeds as well,,,,, the more dogs you watch, the more you will learn and with luck begin to understand all of the differences.
For instance... I appreciate the all age dogs, but really don't want one. I'm not equiped to own and campaign a dog with that kind of power, but I sure can appreciate what they are, and what they do!
Best of luck with your youngster, learn to take wins and losses with a grain of salt. It's just a sport, and a hobby....not life and death.
Dog Tails
Fuzznut,
Great summery.....{ I've seen some, but not many. Pointers, when coming from AF breedings will most always have a high tail, but not if coming from AKC breedings. I've seen and judged some decent Weims... but they ain't Pointers, and shouldn't be pointers. Different breeds. Different heritage, different genetics. }
I would guess Judgeing Weims... a pointer judge would need to put on a different Hat and judge differently.She has placed 2nd in all Breed trials and judges were looking at best work,so you are right different trials different results.My only concern is this should not be the case at the Supper Bowl of Weim trials.
Question,(AF)American Field would be the place to look if anyone
was truly wanting a field champion?....Gary
Great summery.....{ I've seen some, but not many. Pointers, when coming from AF breedings will most always have a high tail, but not if coming from AKC breedings. I've seen and judged some decent Weims... but they ain't Pointers, and shouldn't be pointers. Different breeds. Different heritage, different genetics. }
I would guess Judgeing Weims... a pointer judge would need to put on a different Hat and judge differently.She has placed 2nd in all Breed trials and judges were looking at best work,so you are right different trials different results.My only concern is this should not be the case at the Supper Bowl of Weim trials.
Question,(AF)American Field would be the place to look if anyone
was truly wanting a field champion?....Gary
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Colleen
Gary, are you wanting to know about the surgery because you want to have it done to your dog or because you suspect other people at that trial had it done?
Right before we got our first pup last September, a trialer had given our breeder an English pointer whose tail wasn't straight, and therefore the dog was "useless" to him. So, our breeder takes the dog, finishes him, and sells him for a pretty penny to someone who wanted, as Ayres said, a dog who puts birds on the table. The tone of Dalton's voice and the look on his face while he was telling us about getting this free dog just screamed his disbelief that someone would give away a great bird dog because he didn't like its tail. Different strokes for different folks I guess...
Right before we got our first pup last September, a trialer had given our breeder an English pointer whose tail wasn't straight, and therefore the dog was "useless" to him. So, our breeder takes the dog, finishes him, and sells him for a pretty penny to someone who wanted, as Ayres said, a dog who puts birds on the table. The tone of Dalton's voice and the look on his face while he was telling us about getting this free dog just screamed his disbelief that someone would give away a great bird dog because he didn't like its tail. Different strokes for different folks I guess...
Colleen,
I can relate to your post. In the trial world you have got to have class.... Sounds to me as if the guy that gave the dog away for free just wanted the dog to go to such a place that he did. Nothing wrong with that in my mind. I for one if the dog is not easy on my eyes and hopefully on a judges eyes it too will be yesterdays news....
I can relate to your post. In the trial world you have got to have class.... Sounds to me as if the guy that gave the dog away for free just wanted the dog to go to such a place that he did. Nothing wrong with that in my mind. I for one if the dog is not easy on my eyes and hopefully on a judges eyes it too will be yesterdays news....
grant wrote:Both of my dogs have had their tail altered.
Got a point, Grant.Mine too, technically speaking.
- Steven
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
Justus Kennels.com
Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
Wind River's JK Clara Belle - Belle
Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux
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QCBirddogs
I held off on this one for a bit..........
Yes there are several operations that could be perfromed on tails. THey work better on horses than dogs though. It is very obvious to a seasoned dog person, if it has been done too! It also can make the tail alot worse. Crap shoot if you will!
The pointer guys on ocasion put a castration band on the end of tails as well.
In my opinion, I dont like a tail set on top of the spine at all, it looks unnatural. In my breed that is.
When I judge, I look at the breed, and grade accordingly.
What I do look for in tails is when the handler flushes a bird or aproaches the dog! THE TAIL WILL TELL THE TALE! Anyone could "break" a dog, I want to see one that is trained and liking it! PERIOD!!
Phil
REO
Yes there are several operations that could be perfromed on tails. THey work better on horses than dogs though. It is very obvious to a seasoned dog person, if it has been done too! It also can make the tail alot worse. Crap shoot if you will!
The pointer guys on ocasion put a castration band on the end of tails as well.
In my opinion, I dont like a tail set on top of the spine at all, it looks unnatural. In my breed that is.
When I judge, I look at the breed, and grade accordingly.
What I do look for in tails is when the handler flushes a bird or aproaches the dog! THE TAIL WILL TELL THE TALE! Anyone could "break" a dog, I want to see one that is trained and liking it! PERIOD!!
Phil
REO
Dogs tails
Phil,
Your well thought out post was worth waiting on.
This pup's tail is up but not as high as some,would judges except
such a tail provided all else equal?
Gary
Your well thought out post was worth waiting on.
This pup's tail is up but not as high as some,would judges except
such a tail provided all else equal?
Gary
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Colleen
TAK,
First of all, of course looks are important to you--you run GSPs!!!
And no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that guy giving the dog away--and it's commendable that he gave it away to someone who will use the dog's abilities (as opposed to a shelter or something). I'm just dumbfounded that an otherwise great hunting dog is not worth keeping because he's not going to place 1st in a trial. Why not keep him, hunt over him, and take dogs with better conformation and style to trials? Maybe I just don't get it because I'm not really into trials, but I don't see the harm in keeping a dog who makes a good hunting companion.
And about that elusive style...I think this thread (and the link to the thread on the other forum) has shown that style is in the eye of the beholder.
Phil, what do you mean you watch the tail for it to tell the tale? Say that 10 times fast before you answer. No, seriously though, did you mean you look for signs that the dog isn't really trained, just scared of his handler? Or do you just mean you watch it for intensity, to see if the dog is really intent on the bird or just trained to stay still?
First of all, of course looks are important to you--you run GSPs!!!
And no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that guy giving the dog away--and it's commendable that he gave it away to someone who will use the dog's abilities (as opposed to a shelter or something). I'm just dumbfounded that an otherwise great hunting dog is not worth keeping because he's not going to place 1st in a trial. Why not keep him, hunt over him, and take dogs with better conformation and style to trials? Maybe I just don't get it because I'm not really into trials, but I don't see the harm in keeping a dog who makes a good hunting companion.And about that elusive style...I think this thread (and the link to the thread on the other forum) has shown that style is in the eye of the beholder.
Phil, what do you mean you watch the tail for it to tell the tale? Say that 10 times fast before you answer. No, seriously though, did you mean you look for signs that the dog isn't really trained, just scared of his handler? Or do you just mean you watch it for intensity, to see if the dog is really intent on the bird or just trained to stay still?
Hit the nail on the head here! If it can't win y feed it! Give it to someone that will hunt the dog. I understand that you don't trial, but if you did would you go spend money to trial a dog that won't win?Colleen wrote:TAK,
First of all, of course looks are important to you--you run GSPs!!!
I'm just dumbfounded that an otherwise great hunting dog is not worth keeping because he's not going to place 1st in a trial.
Little lost about the comment on the Looks of a GSP??? And yes style is a big part for me!
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Colleen
Re: the looks on the GSP, just referring to the fact that if you didn't want a nice-looking dog, you'd have picked one of those other breeds 
Do most trial people not hunt? I guess that's where I'm getting lost here...hypothetically, of course I wouldn't trial a dog who doesn't do well either, but if he can hunt, why not hunt him?
Do most trial people not hunt? I guess that's where I'm getting lost here...hypothetically, of course I wouldn't trial a dog who doesn't do well either, but if he can hunt, why not hunt him?
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Colleen
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sdgord
tail set
Gotta agree with most of the posts that altering a dogs tail set is going a bit too far. What you have got to ask yourself is did you get the dog for the judge or for yourself.? After all the only one that matters in the long run is how the dog makes you feel. I have one GS that points with a poker straight tail and another that is level. Both are very intense and birdy. The level tail has limited field trial experience and has placed in all breed trials. The poker straight tail has won and placed well in all breed trials. I would never show under any judge whos main criteria was a tail. Unfortunately sometimes you dont know that until youve paid your money and take your chances. There are a few judges out there that have tunnel vision and a few that I will never spend the money to get an opinion from. To close altering a tail imo is just too radical.SDGORD
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Kevin
you gotta have rocks in your head to even consider a "tail elevating" operation for lack of a better word.
Remember people, we are talking about hunting dogs here, they are suppost to hunt, after all this is www.gundogforum not www.showdogforum.
Remember people, we are talking about hunting dogs here, they are suppost to hunt, after all this is www.gundogforum not www.showdogforum.