Dakota Prairie Championship

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:19 am

Dakota Prairie Championship results

Judges were Rosco Staton & Chuck Thielen. And the winners are:

CH - Jenny Two Shoes Marjos, o-Quinn & Luisi, h-Tracy
RU - Clyde's Micro-Breeze, o-Pollock, h-Tracy
3rd - Tequila With A Twist, o-Carlson, h-Tillson
4th - Breton's Gold Run Ruffian, o-Theilen & Carlson, h-Tillson

66 were drawn.

Eastern dogs in 1 and 2, Western in 3 and 4. The Central and Mid-West dogs, running on their home turf, were shut out. Not too long ago that rarely happened.

Neil

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:59 am

Where do they hold that Neil. Is that up by Minot? Town starts with a "C" but I don't remember the name.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:20 am

Thanks for the report. A championship with 4 placements?? What kind of event/sanctioning body was it? Can you give some details on the birds/grounds/finds/etc.? Pics too!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:23 pm

Doug,

Unlike the GSPs, the Brittany AF and AKC organizations work together to make a circuit that works for all involved. Most Brittany championships, including their wild bird horseback and walking (cover) trials are dual registered with the AKC.

So, for the Dakota championship, the AF sees the CH and RU. The AKC sees all 4 placements, as this was an AKC Open All Age stake.

Kinda neat, huh? Instead of the goofiness we make the GSP folks go through each fall (i.e. either run an AKC trial to qualify for Eureka or run a wild bird championship) the Brittany folks get to do both at the same time. In the Brittany world, you could even put an FC on a dog by running only wild bird trials.

Don't expect this from the GSP world; makes too much sense.

Dave

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:44 pm

Does that mean you will be buying a brittney and selling that new Hoke puppy you just bought?

Just asking?

Pepper

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:53 pm

Well if he does Jerry, I'll be first in line for it........That is a very nice pup.

What better way to increase your weekend trials that have it run that way. Sounds like a pretty good way to go.

Chip

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:22 pm

That is correct most of the Britt AF Championships are also AKC Classics, our National Championships (Open/ Amateur, All-Age/Gun Dog) are Championships in both.

Our Amateur Regional Championships are AF, AKC, and AFTCA. Plus many of our weekend trials are sanctioned by all three.

Some trials go so far as to give two ribbons, plus you get the AFTCA Certificate if you are an amateur.

As suggested it is mostly done to qualify for our National Championships, which takes two wins in weekend 30 minute stakes, one of which must be first.

The US Open and a couple of cover dog trails are strictly AF.

The system seems to work.

My dogs are qualified for most AF championships (pointer/setter) when they come out of Derby.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:00 pm

Sounds good Neil. How about some specifics on how the dogs did/the birds/courses/etc. What'd ya' see out there!? Love to hear about the real bird trials - if ya' said ya' shot birds on course I'd be in love (with the trial!).

As far as the dual sanctioning stuff, yah, I suppose it works but I'm not a big fan of qualifying for open stakes via breed specific trials - just makes sense to me to qualify against the competition you're gonna face off with. To be honest, I'm not really sure how in the heck a derby placement in any venue (breed specific or open) qualifies a dog for competing at the broke dog championship level but..."it's the way it's always been" and I've been instructed to let it go, let it go.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:30 pm

John,

It is held in Bonesteel, SD.

Doug,

I don't run in pointer trials unless I think I can win, it is just nice not to worry about qualifying in some weekend AF trial, casue they are tough enough.

My recent record against Mid-South pointers has not been all that great. My dogs don't have enough run for All-Age and are a bit hard to handle for Shooting Dog.

Neil

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:42 pm

I hear ya' Neil - it's always just struck me as odd that all breed championships would honor a win cert. earned at a breed specific trial.

No details on the championship? I presume it was a real bird trial and am always interested in the birds/birdwork/finds and stuff you saw so us internet trialer guys can get our fix!! I'd love to hit all those trials in that country then hunt it the rest of the time!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:24 pm

Hotpepper wrote:Does that mean you will be buying a brittney and selling that new Hoke puppy you just bought?

Just asking?

Pepper

No Jerry, it means I'm willing to pick my head out of the sand and look around at what's going on.

I'm willing to recognize that a system where we have hour championship-winning dogs like Staci and Spekk sitting in the parking lot at Eureka instead of running, because they couldn't be hacked around a piss-poor excuse of an all age course at a weekend AKC trial doesn't make a ton of sense, does it?

I'm willing to recognize that having 3 national championships, each that claim that the winner of their trial is "the true GSP National Champion" doesn't make a ton of sense.

Maybe we need to stop worrying about catching the d*mn Pointers and realize that the Brits have built a better mousetrap, that's more applicable to the GSPs.

It means I'm willing to recognize that the Brits produce 40% less pups a year than do GSPs, yet they have more dogs at their trials, more trials, more clubs, and more wild bird trials than the GSP folks do. Given those facts, how in the world are you willing to defend the status quo?

I'm just asking?

Just think about that Jerry - less dogs,yet more entries and more trials. Does that make sense to you? The Brits have a system where you, conceivably, can put an FC on a dog and never have to run a planted bird trial. We don't have a single GSP AKC trial where the ground isn't littered with planted birds.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I have to admit that my comment about "Don't expect this from the GSP world; makes too much sense" was actually Eldon's, when we had this discussion at Eureka a few years ago.

FWIW,
Dave

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:13 am

Just like everything else, Have you ever even ran a dog at Eureka. Have you ever went there and do anything but sit in the parking lot and critize all that goes on.

IN my humble opinion get a brittany and go and play with them. Go to the west coast and watch every club out there have small entries because the britt's close their trials and run on the weekends that every other club runs on.

Till you know the whole story, get a britt and do it. Like you have never done with a shorthair.

Jerry

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:13 am

Jerry, your premis is a little faulty. Many if not most west coast Brittany trials are open to other breeds. Brittany trials were closed when there were more Brits being entered than could be run on a weekend. When those numbers declined and there were room they opened the trials back up to all AKC recognized breeds.

I don't think this thread was started as my way is better than your way but was just an accounting of how different groups do things. I am sure there are good and bad to every method so it comes down to what ever works. And it is important that we are all ready to try new things and not always hangon to the old just because we are used to it.

Doug had a good point about dogs being run against their own breed qualifing for championship events. I don't think it is bad to have each breed to qualify within their own breed and then send their best to these events and see how they do against the other breeds. That is how most sports are run and it seems to work well.

Lets hope we continue to have some diversity of opinions as it sure would be boring at the least and probably disasterous at the worse if we all did things alike.

Ezzy

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:17 pm

Not sure the Britts have that many more true wild bird trials, but we do run a good many on continuous 1 hour courses with pre-released birds.

I know we do a lot of things wrong, but this dual sanctioned thing works for us.

The Britt is now the number 3 dog with AF in terms of entries, behind pointers, and just back of setters.

There is no reason the GSP's could not do the same, Bernie at AF would welcome the ad revenue, registrations, and readership. Nearly all of the Britt field trialers I know subscribe to AF, we get the write-up of our major trials weeks before it appears in our monthly magazine.

Neil

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:32 pm

Neil Mace wrote:Not sure the Britts have that many more true wild bird trials, but we do run a good many on continuous 1 hour courses with pre-released birds.

I know we do a lot of things wrong, but this dual sanctioned thing works for us.

The Britt is now the number 3 dog with AF in terms of entries, behind pointers, and just back of setters.

There is no reason the GSP's could not do the same, Bernie at AF would welcome the ad revenue, registrations, and readership. Nearly all of the Britt field trialers I know subscribe to AF, we get the write-up of our major trials weeks before it appears in our monthly magazine.

Neil

Neil,

Right now we have 2 wild bird trials in the GSP world; the Sharptail and the Prairie Chicken. The rest of our championships, including the remaining species championships (Hun, Pheasant, Chukar, Quail) and our region championships are planted bird trials. A few are pre-released, but most are regular planted. Our region 17 trial was a wild bird trial, but wasn't held this year as it's not fiscally viable without a substantial subsidy.

I think you're confusing the AKC/AF thing though. Our region/species championship are held through the NGSPA, which is an AF, but not AFTCA, organization. We dropped the AFTCA link a few years ago due to the retrieve stuff.

We dual register our weekend AKC trials with the AF, but what we don't do is dual register our NGSPA/AF championships with the AKC. So our pros and amateurs who want to run championship or wild bird stakes have to decide to either run weekend AKC stuff (qualify for Eureka, qualify for limiteds, puppy/derby points, etc) or go run championships. Pros get put in binds when clients with finished dogs want to run championships and clients with dogs that need to qualify for Eureka, that want to run AKC trials.

Since finished dogs don't have to requalify for Eureka it's not a huge problem on the gundog/shooting dog side, but every year we have all age dogs with multiple hour wins sitting in the parking lot at Eureka, instead of competing, because they couldn't be hacked around a half-hour AKC AA course, 90% of which are too small to run a true AA dog on anyways.

We could register our AF championships with the AKC, but the "powers that be" won't let that happen; it will take a generational shift before this changes. As you can see in this thread, change isn't always welcome and there is a lot of "let's shoot the messenger" instead of debating the actual ideas.

The Brits have done an good job at keeping the trial game relevant and accessable. While I too don't agree with everything they do, I'm humble enough to realize that others have found better ways of doing things.

FWIW,
Dave

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:57 pm

Dave there certainly seems to me to be a flaw or two in your logic. First and foremost there's no reason for dogs running in the NGSPA hour championships not to be able to run weekend trials as well. Many if not most of the NGSPA championships are bookended by weekend trials within comfortable driving distance or even on the same grounds.

Their handlers may well have to pick and choose occasionally between the two but not as a rule.

Who are the powers at be that prevent us from having our NGSPA CH trials also being AKC sanctioned and what is the reasoning behind it. This is the first I've heard of it. Maybe we need a new thread.. "What's screwed up about the NGSPA and GSPCA. If such probllems really do exist I'd be interested in learning more. CR

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:53 pm

Charlie,

Give Eldon a call and ask him how frustrating it was to have Spekk win a couple of hour championships a year, but not be able to run him at Eureka because he couldn't hack him around an AKC half-hour course. I believe Spekk was qualified to run at Eureka once in his life.

Then ask Brath about having the hotest young AA dog in Staci the past 2 years sitting on the stakeout at Eureka. He ran her last year, in the Gundog because she was qualified even though she had no business running in that stake. She was out of contention by 15 (WAY too big) but the judges left her down because she was a blast to watch.

She'll be running this year, because Dennis got her qualified, but the nonsense of hacking her around AKC courses will start again next year. She didn't run in the AA at the Chicken, because they started the AA on the weekend which conflicted against the closest GSP AKC trial in Iowa.

Ask Keith and Robbi what it's like to pull out of the Great Plains and haul a** to get to the Heart of America trial. Run dogs for 5 days straight, the jump in your truck and drive 200+ miles on a Sunday night and see what you feel is "a reasonable distance".

The championships are not financially viable unless they can run 3, if not 4, stakes. Pretty darn tough to get that done in 4 days, since most AKC trials are now Fri-Sun. I've watched too many pros, mine included, pull out of grounds late Sunday night and drive through the night to run the championship starting Monday. Other than the Chuckar CH, I don't believe there is a region or species championship which has AKC trials on both ends all fall.

If a championship is successful, there can't be AKC trials as bookends. The championship will draw too many pros and entries, and it makes the AKC trials too big.

More later,
Dave

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:13 pm

Sorry for the hijack to this thread! Charlie, I don't think Dave is saying NGSPA championships need to be also sanctioned by AKC - I believe what he's saying is that he believes a championship win in NGSPA should be a qualification criteria for participation at Eureka. I've got a dog that I believe could have shown very well back there but I essentially never attend AKC trials (maybe one a year at most) so never meet the qualification criteria despite the dog having 3 hour championship wins and a RU Ch. - in only a handful of outings I might add

Anyway, I think it would only enhance the prestige of the stakes to allow NGSPA champion dogs to attend. We'll work on that first then we'll tackle moving the darn trial to the spring away from hunting season - the dogs are supposed to be out hunting at that time of year anyway!!

Still no specifics on the Dakota Ch. trial this thread is supposed to be about? I probably mistook your report for firsthand info Neil - were you not actually at the trial? Figured from your report you were still sporting a nice windburned face and squinty eyes from watching little Britt buzzbombs scrambling around the prairies!!

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:18 pm

Charlie, I don't think Dave is saying NGSPA championships need to be also sanctioned by AKC - I believe what he's saying is that he believes a championship win in NGSPA should be a qualification criteria for participation at Eureka.

Actually Doug, that's exactly what I am saying. And in reality, you are suggesting the same thing if you want a NGSPA championship win to qualify a dog for Eureka. The AKC isn't going to allow that to happen, just the same way that the AF doesn't allow an AKC FC to run in AF championship stakes.

What I am suggesting is exactly what happened with this Brittany championship. The Brit trial folks have figured out it's not about the AKC nor the AF; neither organization cares about growing Brittany field trialing. It's about the Brittany and the people that run the trials, own the dogs and write the checks. So, they use both registries and dual register almost every trial.

My question is why not? Let's accept the fact that the AKC is the primary registry for the GSP, and the FC title is the primary field title for the breed. The GSP owner who doesn't trial, but values what a trial winner will bring to the mix wants to see that FC title more than anything else. So, let's give our dogs the most opportunities to finish that title, and Stitch is a perfect example. Spekk is another example; well over a half-dozen hour AA wins but he'll never be a FC in the current format.

One other thing to consider Doug, last year the Brits (with 40% less dogs that the GSPs) drew 61 dogs for their National Amateur All Age Championship

And each of those 61 dogs had to qualify that year to run the trial. Mull that over for a while; you think we may have something to learn from them?

FWIW,
Dave

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:01 am

It is a great travesty to have Mr. Steve Short play the game according to the rules, win trials sanctioned by the CKC and not be qualified to run the AKC championships.

I feel the idea that Dave and Doug have great merit, need to be written up and submitted for a vote.

That is what needs to occur.

Pepper

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:00 am

I let this one slip by while I was out of town but thought I'd get back to it.

This probalby isn't a real popular sentiment but that's ok...

If a dog can't be handled in a half hour stake there's something wrong with it being allowed to qualify under different criteria than those that can.

I love watching great dogs, and I've seen all the dogs that you mentioned at least once but if every other dog qualifying for Eureka has to do so running in half hour stakes, (meaning they have to place/win running in them and more imporantly meaning they CAN be consistently handled from start to end in those stakes) why should there be any different criteria for dogs that can't be?

This kind of logic is antithetical to the idea that field trial dogs are the best representatives of our hunting dogs because bottom line if you can't finish a hunt with your hunting dog he's just a run off, and if you can't show your dog at the end of a brace he is too no matter how many brilliant moments he had on course.

If the great hour dogs you are talking about are simply "too much dog" to qualify in the same manner that the rest of them have to for the GSPCA nationals perhaps then they belong in another venue such as the NGSPA.

When we have a system that works very well for the majority of dogs and produces true champions worthy of the title, why do we need to change the rules to accomodate a few dogs that can't work within the system?

Steve Short is a great guy and someone I respect having gotten to know him fairly well this year. I don't think though that Steve has any problems with the requirement that if he wants to run dogs in the GSPCA nationals he has to follow the same rules as the rest of us irregardless of which side of the border he lives on. I know he comes at least as far south as Kansas to trial.

Dave I'm sorry but I really don't feel any sort of pains for any of the pros you mentioned having to pull out and drive all of 200 miles. Normally I work here until mid afternoon if not untill Dark on Friday evening and then drive 400-600 miles to be at a trial the next morning. Even though I sometimes don't get everyone tended and ready to go till a few minutes before my first brace I'm never late to the line and I don't bitch about the schedule.

When the trial is over I'll turn around and do the same thing getting home and still be out working dogs at sun up the next morning. It's simply something we have to accept as being part of the life we have chosen. We aren't like the amateurs, we can't schedule a vacation day for travel time on each end of a trial and let someone else do the work. My clients expect at least four to five days work each week for their dogs and that's what they get. I make up for the lost sleep when and where I can and it's by MY choice to do so just as it is their's. CR

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:07 pm

With a true All-Age it is not the tight courses of the 30 minute weekend trials as much as the grace period (the time limit before a dog is considered out of contention after last being seen) and judges with happy watches. 1/6th of the brace means 5 minutes in a 30 minute stake versus 10 minutes in an hour. It is not that they can't finish, it is they need a bit more than 5 minutes to be found on point or swing to the front.

The Brittany folks found that they were leaving a lot of good true, 1 hour All-Age dogs on the trailer with only the weekend trials as qualifiers. Remember it takes two 30 minute wins, one a first, to qualify for the NC with Britts each year. No exception for FC's.

In truth, I have found some of the better Gun Dogs can use all of the 5 minute grace period if the judges start the clock the second they were last seen, but mainly it is an All-Age consideration.

There are some problems with running both AF/FDSB and AKC sanctioned trials, such as to move up or down from a scratch, the 1/3 of the brace for out of contention with AF, the bird work thing, and a few others. But in the main it is working, and more of the dogs that run in the Britt NC belong there, as most have already proven they are hour dogs.

I would rather take a 4th in a 20 dog hour Classic as win two half-hour 40 dog stakes, and I have done both. In fact, the first time he was posted at an hour All-Age Championship was a bigger thrill than his FC title.

Neil

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:29 pm

Neil the point is FINSHING WITH THE DOG and/or Being able to show them within the period alotted.

With a true All-Age it is not the tight courses of the 30 minute weekend trials as much as the grace period (the time limit before a dog is considered out of contention after last being seen) and judges with happy watches. 1/6th of the brace means 5 minutes in a 30 minute stake versus 10 minutes in an hour. It is not that they can't finish, it is they need a bit more than 5 minutes to be found on point or swing to the front.

There may be some judges with a happy trigger finger on the stop watch but I haven't met any judging AA stakes that start counting five minutes every time the dog disappears. They to a man/woman start counting five minutes from the time they felt like they should have seen the dog again. In reality that usually adds up to about an eight to ten minute abscence being more than tolerable. If you can't produce them at the end though that's another matter. Again though we have a LOT of dogs running in half hour AA stakes that DO manage to meet the time requirements, win/place, and therefore qualify for the GSPCA national AA stake.

When we fifty dogs qualified and entered in the AA at Eureka this year that COULD be handled and shown at the end of a thirty minute stake, who CAN ALSO put down the race needed to win the hour National Championship and still be shown at the end.

That being the case I can understand how many would feel that changing the rules to accomodate dogs that can't no matter how great they are as hour dogs seems to be a bit of a slap in the face to the dogs and their ownerns and handlers that can do both.

You brittany folks do a lot of things differently than we do and that's ok. Having judged quite a few Britt's in several trials including a pretty big AA limited hour stake I'm familiar with both ways of doing things. CR

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:17 pm

I can't imagine Steve complaining that his win in CKC did not qualify him to run in AKC.

Region 14 AFTCA (Sask. and Montana) runs some bona fide AA Prairie Pointers. These fellows all qualify their dogs in 1/2 hour weekend stakes. I have seen Ferrel Millers name in the placements in the 1/2 hour AA in Mortlach club stakes in the past.

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:47 pm

Hey, I really don't care what you do or don't do with GSP's.

I am telling all that the Britts have found what has been proven as a better way for the Britts, and that is glorifying the true hour dog.

I would suggest that if the GSP's want to glorify and honor the 1/2 hour dog it would seem to make some sense to have a 30 minute NC.

IF you ever saw Ferrel run a dog, you would know he could keep one in a 50 acre field for 30 minutes if need be. All of the major and nearly all of the weekend pointer trials in the US, Open and Amateur, Shooting Dog and All-Age are one hour stakes for a reason.

Neil

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:17 pm

Well Neil you're making my point very well. I strongly suspect you won't see many hour stakes popping up in weekend GSP trials. Most of the trials I attend in general and GSP clubs in particular are so jammed full already trying to work in hour stakes would just create a nightmare.

We have ways of glorifying the hour dogs in gsp circles. All of the NGSPA events I know of are hour stakes. Our GSPCA national is an hour stake. A great many of the dog that do just fine in our thirty minute weekend stakes also do very well in the NGSPA.

Ferell is no different than any other top handler with top class dogs, they should all be able to be handled no matter the size of the grounds or length of the stake and the best of them can do so consistently. At lest in my way of thinking even with AA dogs while there's a fine line of being "on the edge" if the dogs can't be handled and shown when appropriate they are "over the edge".

Like I said, we have fifty dogs entered this year in the GSPCA AA national championship which is an hour stake. Everyone of those dogs got their by qualifying in half hour stakes. Why then should we consider changing the rules to allow a handful of dogs which don't/haven't or couldn't?

I understand that in the minds of quite a few GSP folks the NGSPA championship circuit is a much more important pursuit than the weekend trials. If focusing on that too much though creates dogs that can't qualify for our GSPCA nationals does the GSPCA need to change to accomodate them? I think that's the question under discussion and as yet no one has given us an answer as to why they should.

Jerry has a whole lot more experience there than I do and I at least have some, so maybe he'll check back in and lend us his thoughts. If not I'll just try to bend his ear over a bowl of chili next week in Eureka. I do think though it's a fair topic for public discussion. CR

Neil Mace · Post by **Neil Mace** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:56 pm

Rose,

I liked it better when we were ignoring one another.

But perhaps you can share with us how many hour placements you have won? How many true one hour All-Age dogs have you placed in 30 minute stakes? What titles have you put on a dog?

If the answers to all three questions are zero, you are just arguing for no reason.

There are a lot of nice dogs that cannot win on a 30 minute merry-go-round with throw down birds in the horsepath. That is not speculation, it is fact.

Neil

Post by **pear** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:16 pm

This thread is done. There is nothing more to be said. If you two have an axe to grind that is fine just do it somewhere else..... "pear" GDF Moderator