FT Walking Stakes

[Greg Jennings]

I've started planning my fall schedule. Two comments:

1. Seems like walking stakes are on the rise. Big kudos to those event committees.

2. Still too many stakes closed to "outside" breeds. I've seen a lot of discussion on reasons for it, but I still believe that all are better off in the long term with "open to all pointing breeds" and letting all the other cards fall where they may.

[Dave Quindt]

Greg,

Walking stakes are very cyclical in nature; both in numbers of stakes and in entries. For the most part though, walking trials (AKC) tend to be held more in the spring than the fall. Many of the grounds that hold spring walking trials are unsuitable in the fall due to the extensive cover. Up here, by the time the cover comes down in late fall most are out hunting and the grounds are used by hunters as well

Regarding closed breed trials, they are bad for the sport and ultimately bad for the breeds. IMO, every stake other than breed championships should be open to amateur-handled dogs of any breed. That would be in the best interest of the sport.

JMO,
Dave

[original mngsp]

Howie

A AKC club can hold up to 3 Field Trials a year if 1 of them is a walking trial. There is no stipulation that a club cant hold 2 or I think even three walking trials. The St. Croix Valley Brittany CLub holds two walking trials per year, the one in June at Four Brooks and another one in mid-September at Four Brooks too.

[Dave Quindt]

It would be nice if AKC would allow each club to hold more then one walking trial a year.

They do; a FT club can hold up to 3 trials a year. All 3 can be walking trials if the club desires; the only limitation is that a maximum of 2 are horseback trials. In addition, the AKC has allowed for the creation of "performance dog clubs" (Lake Superior Pointing Dog Club is one example) that are all breed clubs created to host AKC hunt test and field trial events. This allows for a bunch of folks from different breeds to band together and form a club without all of the politics and oversight a national breed club brings to the table.

I think it would bring more people into the sport.

I agree, but only to a certain point. IMO, walking trials end up giving existing performance dog folks another venue to run in far more than providing an avenue for bringing new folks in. To grow the number of trialers, you first need folks who have broke dogs (or are interested in having broke dogs) and second, folks who desire/appreciate a dog that hunts in a pattern more suitable for wild birds than one for put-n-take preserve hunting. The guys who will shoot anything that flies, regardless of how the dog handled the bird, have no interest/use for a birddog trained to find and hold game until the hunter arrives.

Get the clubs back into the business of providing hunters training grounds and assistance and you'll produce new folks who see the value and usefulness of a well polished broke dog that intelligently hunts the cover. Create more of those folks and you'll have more demand for walking trials than you could ever imagine.

JMO,
Dave

[Dave Quindt]

Dave, I take it your a member of LSPDC.

Nope; I live in suburban Chicago.

Our wed. nite NAVHDA training group in Virginia, Mn. has grown in the last two yrs. People looking for a better trained dog.

NAVHDA has replaced the local AKC clubs as the primary method for training assitance in most places. NAVHDA does a good job of helping folks getting control and obedience on their dogs in the field and around game. But NAVHDA isn't going to help those folks "take it to the next level" and understand there is more to a quality dog than just a very obedient one.

JMO,
Dave

[lvrgsp]

I prefer the AF walking stakes to the AKC stakes for a few reasons, the cost is usually less per entry, and there a heck of alot closer, and there are more of them in the spring and fall, it's where I cut my teeth in birddog trials 13 years ago, and last spring the entries were huge for our local clubs. They ran 2 club trials one on Sat and one on Sun, both club trials had 55-60 dogs each day, thats a good showing for us.

Chip

[phermes1]

I heard this weekend that the AKC might be exploring licensing NAVHDA chapters to hold hunt tests - and also to allow clubs to hold 6 hunt tests per year vs the current 4.

[Neil Mace]

Regarding closed breed trials, they are bad for the sport and ultimately bad for the breeds. IMO, every stake other than breed championships should be open to amateur-handled dogs of any breed. That would be in the best interest of the sport.

JMO,
Dave

Dave,

Other than having to take guff from GSP guys, can you explain how the Brittany has been harmed by having Britt only stakes? Seems like the Britts did fairly well at the AKC GD Championships.

And if you are going to force the stakes to be open why not the many breed championships? Other than having to change the names.

I just don't get this. A GSP club will open a trial, but 95+ % of the entries will be GSP's and they will be full before the premiums are printed, and that is better for the breed and the sport?

For whatever it is worth, I am for opening all the stakes, and if Britt entries fall due to gas prices, it is likely to happen.

Neil

[Greg Jennings]

I'm a pretty close observer of the economic situation. The bottom line, for whatever reason people want to blame, times are hard. Between the mortgage situation, energy inflation and other (debatable if much of it is energy related), people's disposable income has been hit. I see lots of SUVs and boats for same in yards around here (which ain't low rent...) I see brood bitches, a lot of them bred, for sale in The Field and around.

So, my take is kudos to any club that is putting on a walking stake. More kudos to any club that opens its stakes so that people don't have to travel as far.

With all that said, Dave, I could not agree with you more about the training mission of clubs. To me, that is an even bigger barrier to having fun (and thus being a "long-term customer") in the field trial game. Resources (birds, grounds, ATVs, horses) and experience.

Here is a hook using myself as an example. In two weeks, I'm going to be starting a weekly trip, a skosh over 2 hours each way, to spend an hour or so at $35/hour with a pro. That's $150 per month from one person. Sounds like there is a business case there to me...

Greg J.

[Dave Quindt]

Neil Mace wrote:

Other than having to take guff from GSP guys, can you explain how the Brittany has been harmed by having Britt only stakes? Seems like the Britts did fairly well at the AKC GD Championships.

Neil, there's far more to this than a few placements here and there. If the sport as a whole is in trouble, the individual breeds will suffer.

I'll give you a few examples:

The grounds at Thayer, IA: Right now the grounds at Thayer are going to auction. This has been talked about/feared for at least 3 years now. Every time this comes up the Brit folks try to "rally the troops" and find someone or some group to step forward and purchase them before they end up being plowed under. The problem is that only the Brits and Vizslas run there, and every trial they run are closed to other breeds.

I know of two different GSP field trial patrons who have publicly stated that they'd be willing to offer up significant amounts of "matching funds" for the purchase of grounds for field trialing. I bet there are a number of different folks in many breeds who might be in a position to do the same. But none of them are stepping forward. Heck, outside of the Brit/Vizsla community no one else knows you folks are about to loose those grounds. The last time this came up one local all-breed pro in the area made the comment "Why should we help them? When we're short entries and need dogs, we call and ask for entries; they'd rather stay at home and sit on the sofa than come run one of our trials even though we have Brit guys judging. And now they want our money!"

You folks want to "play in your own sandbox"; the problem is when you need help no one is going to step up and help you. That's not good for your breed, or is it good for the sport.

Another example:

I live 25 minutes from the Des Plaines FT grounds here in IL. A few years ago I was driving across Iowa, headed for a trial at Branched Oaks outside of Lincoln, NE. I was stopped at a gas station somewhere in Iowa when in pulls a pickup pulling a horse trailer, TriTronics sticker in the window and 4 Brits in the back seat of the truck. Turned out to be an amateur Brittany trialer. We struck up a conversation; he happened to live between Omaha and Lincoln, and was headed to Des Plaines for a Brittany trial. So both of us lived within an hour's drive of "each other's trial" but because the Brit folks won't let a GSP run in their trial, and they won't let a win at a GSP trial count towards the FC title both of use were spending lots of extra $$ and time hauling ourselves 500 miles out of the way. And that was 3 years ago when gas was much cheaper than now. This sort of nonsense goes on across the country; you can't tell me that both the GSPs and the Brits are not "loosing folks along the way" because of the added cost of this b.s. And even in the best of economic times, what about the "little guy"; the young guy with a toddler and an infant at home who wants to trial but can't get the time off to travel. Isn't it better for the sport if he can run every local trial, where he can be home that night to help his wife with the kids, instead of getting shut out due to breed politics?

I stand with what I said before; amateurs should be able to run in any stake at any weekend club trial. This game is about improving the breeds, but if the barriers to participation for the owners are too high the dogs end up staying on the couch.

I just don't get this. A GSP club will open a trial, but 95+ % of the entries will be GSP's and they will be full before the premiums are printed, and that is better for the breed and the sport?

You always bring this up Neil, but then I see Greg Dixon show up at the largest GSP club trials every year running mostly V's, GWPs and Gordons. And then I see Diane Vater running everything under the sun. They seem to get in without any problems. At the same time, when we need entries for our GSP trials and let the Brit folks know they don't show up.

Now, while we're talking about stuff that doesn't make sense, explain this one. How is it that the Brit community values a 13 dog (all Brit)non-retrieving open gundog win at a Brit trial,with 2 GSP judges in the saddle, as being worthy of the major needed for a field championship but doesn't see the value of that same Brit winning a 60 dog all breed open limited retrieving win at a GSP trial, with 2 Brit judges in the saddle? Talk about things that don't make any sense? Your comment about the AKC Gundog Ch is very ironic; if an unfinished dog of any breed but the Brits wins one of those stakes, they get the "major" towards their FC. The Brits on the other hand would rather see the dog win some out-of-the-way 13 dog open gundog stake at some walking trial because to them that proves more?

JMO,
Dave

[Karen]

The Brittany fancy received the following email yesterday from Ken Windom regarding the Iowa grounds:

I am back from the auction of the field trial grounds at Thayer, IA and am happy to report that they have been secured! Bob and Chris Burchett have put their necks out and, with the help of a couple of major benefactors who provided enough to get the total high enough for the down payment, won the bid to purchase the entire property (1008 acres total). The winning bid was $1440 per acre. That is step one: The balance of the money must now be raised before October 1st to prevent forfeiting the sale. Undoubtedly, some money will need to be financed, but everyone is hoping enough people care about this sport, and enjoy running on those grounds enough, to help raise enough money so only a minimum amount of financing is necessary.

Bob is meeting with a lawyer to draw up a charter for a limited liability corporation (LLC). After the major investors are determined, amendments to the original charter may be made, so details will be worked out then. The main purpose of securing this land, however, is to guarantee a permanent place to run bird dog trials in perpetuity. Anyone wishing to help with this project should contact Bob at burchett@iowatelecom.net. Any contribution will be accepted. The present plan, however, is to sell voting shares in the LLC for $5000 per share. It is anticipated that the land will be managed so as to add sources of revenue to help cover maintenance costs, as well as provide for some development on the property*. If you love the sport of field trialing, and you are concerned about the loss of public grounds, or the imposition of ever more restrictive rules regarding the use of such grounds, please consider helping out. Three different Brittany clubs have used these grounds, and the ABC has run the Pheasant Classic, the Gun Dog Classic, the Central Futurity, and will run the Quail Classic there this fall. If you have a dog that has run in any of these trials, please consider helping. Our sport cannot rely on politicians to keep it alive; it must be preserved by participants. Here is your chance to help do that.

*As clarification, it has been mentioned to me that some people think the current leaseholders have been running this as an income-producing operation. That is not true. In reality, the individual members of the lease have spent several thousand of their own money, without reimbursement, to hold this ground just to provide a venue for running dogs. Money received from individual trials has gone entirely into maintaining crossings, mowing, planting food plots, and other necessary items. Lease holders have volunteered their time and efforts, not to mention fuel, to try to keep the grounds in condition to hold trials. I am not trying to blow my own horn, but I do not want people to have a misunderstanding of the motivation behind our efforts of the past 11 years, or our desire to make sure the land continues as a place where field trials can be held on a permanent basis.

[snips]

Down here last yr they ran a Walking Gordon Trial(open) about 75 mi from the GSP Walking Trial, SAME WEEKEND. I cannot understand scheduling like this. There are not enough Walking trials as it is without scheduling like this. Talking about grounds, the Percy Priest WMA will be up for opening to other groups other than field trialers very soon. So, might be looking these great grounds too

[ezzy333]

I stand with what I said before; amateurs should be able to run in any stake at any weekend club trial. This game is about improving the breeds, but if the barriers to participation for the owners are too high the dogs end up staying on the couch.

This sounds good but I am concerned about it's accuracy. I think you will find that field trials are about winning and then breeding a better field trial dog. If trials were about improving the breed they would pay closer attention to breed standards and how each breed was designed to hunt. Instead, all we hear is how we have changed the breeds from their intended purpose. Personally, I agree many of those changes have been for the better of our hunting but not necessarily the betterment of the breed. A better description of the purpose maybe a change in the breed and not necessarily a betterment.

The other question for discussion is should all breeds be judged for he same qualities in the field? I am not sure I want to see a Brit or a GSP hunt like a pointer. The purpose of different breeds is to present a different look and style I always thought. If we are to maintain that difference how would we judge a trial? I think presenly everyone tries to get a dog that hunts like a pointer and I just don't want that. I love pointers for their abilities and I love Brits for their abilities but I also want those abilities to be different. I don't know of any other venue where it is considered an advantage to have different type animals showing against each other since every animal has its own standard.

The other side of the arguement is time and travel and I will go along with what everyone is saying. Closer is better plus its nice to run against different dogs and different people. But Looking at the overall picture of whats best for the dogs and what is best for the sport, which I am convinced are two different issues, there are sound arguements on both sides and school is still out as to what is best.

Ezzy

[Greg Jennings]

Observation 1:
Let me be as blunt as I can be. For me, FTing, HTing, NAVDHAing, etc. is about doing something fun with my dog and with my family. Everything else comes afterward. Do I care about making a "better" dog of whatever breed? You betcha, but I'm not doing it if it's pure drudgery or I can't afford it. I firmly believe that every other venue is the same. Very few Wehles out there.

Observation 2:
We seem to do OK with different breeds in HT and NAVHDA. Why not in FT? (Range, style?) Why not at least in the gun dog stake or in the AGD. What is the difference in a pointer gun dog stake and a brittany gun dog stake. I really think it's really not that much. Hour stakes? AA stakes? Sure, I understand the difference. Bottom line, I think at the GD stake-level, everyone should just cowboy up to the challenge. And, since most of you know me by now, you know that I've considered that position carefully, not just pulled from thin air. Am I short on experience, YES. Tell me where I'm wrong with an equally thoughtful position.

Observation 3:
Look around. They're covering the earth with houses. Cities are growing, family farms are being gobbled up by the cities or corporate farms. Neither are going to be open to hunting. Energy is scarce. Crude has about doubled in price over the past year: http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html . Bubble? Don't know. But I do know that they're not making any more of the stuff; as long as we're using it, the long-term trend is UP. What I'm getting at is that resources critical to our sport, of whatever flavor, are scarce and getting more so. Ways of doing things that worked in the past may not work in the future. Adapt or die.

Claim 1:
We need to figure out how to cooperate and to share resources. Hang together or hang separately. An example is all-breed pointing dog clubs. Great idea. Gets around a lot of baggage. Probably has some downsides. What are they? Another example is the associations of clubs that coordinate field trialing in a state or region. I know Ohio has one. We did this in skeet shooting. Can't understand how any area does without it in field trialing.

Claim 2:
Hunt testing and field trialing are synergistic. Hunt testing provides a pool of people that want to step up (if the entry barrier isn't too high). Field trialing provides a cadre of experience that hunting testing frankly sucks without.

Claim 3:
For any number of reasons, the greatest thing going for NAVHDA is the training days. All the local non-hunting dog clubs here in Dayton have obedience, showing, agility, rally, etc. training opportunities. Why, oh why, does the hunting crowd not do the same? Why are we shooting ourselves in our collective foot?

Rant over.

Greg J.

[Neil Mace]

Dave,

I don't doubt you have given the matter a lot of thought, it just some of your facts are in error. From the AKC Rule Book:

EXCEPT THAT a Brittany shall not be recorded a
Field Champion unless it has won a 3 point or better
Open Gun Dog, Open All-Age, Open Limited Gun
Dog, or Open Limited All-Age Stake in a licensed or
member field trial held by a Brittany Club

(the rule is the same for an AFC)

So the other 7 points needed for a FC can come from other breed trials, including the AKC GD Ch.

I, too, think all the stakes should be open to all AKC breeds (not just amateur). But I still don't see how it harms the ABC or the Britts by not doing so. By forcing our dogs to gain wins for a title or to qualify for the NC, we have strengthened the Regional Clubs.

So I do agree with you, but I need your help in convincing others in the ABC. There is a simple reason most stakes are closed, we have enough Britt entries to get by with it.

It is just when some say or imply that the Brittany is a lessor dog because their trials aren't open to other breeds that I comment. I get tired of hearing that a FC Brittany only proved he could beat other Brittanys. Well, the GSP National Champions only proved they could beat other GSP's.

If you are going to open up the stakes, open them all. I have never ran in a GSP weekend trial, doubt I ever will, but I would be up for some of the hour championships.

The one area I truly hope we can come together is in building a Contential Wing at the Bird Dog Museum, there has been some movement and cooperation between the GSP's and Britts, but not near enough from the other breeds.

And Dave, thank you for keeping this civil, you are a polite and thoughtful man.

Neil

[Dave Quindt]

Neil wrote:

I don't doubt you have given the matter a lot of thought, it just some of your facts are in error. From the AKC Rule Book:

EXCEPT THAT a Brittany shall not be recorded a Field Champion unless it has won a 3 point or better
........in a licensed or member field trial held by a Brittany Club

In response to what I wrote (emphasis added):

Now, while we're talking about stuff that doesn't make sense, explain this one. How is it that the Brit community values a 13 dog (all Brit)non-retrieving open gundog win at a Brit trial,with 2 GSP judges in the saddle, as being worthy of the major needed for a field championship but doesn't see the value of that same Brit winning a 60 dog all breed open limited retrieving win at a GSP trial, with 2 Brit judges in the saddle? Talk about things that don't make any sense? Your comment about the AKC Gundog Ch is very ironic; if an unfinished dog of any breed but the Brits wins one of those stakes, they get the "major" towards their FC. The Brits on the other hand would rather see the dog win some out-of-the-way 13 dog open gundog stake at some walking trial because to them that proves more?

Neil,

I know what the AKC rule book says; I looked at it before I wrote my post. What I wrote was correct, as it was only about the major win needed for an FC or AFC title. A Brittany can win both stakes at the AKC Gundog CH for 5 years in a row, but until that dog wins a major at a Brittany club trial they are not worthy of the FC title in the eyes of the Brittany folks. You only need one win for an FC title, and the Brit folks are more impressed if that one win comes at a 13 dog Brit club stake than a 90 dog stake open to all breeds.

There is a simple reason most stakes are closed, we have enough Britt entries to get by with it.

"Having enough entries" is a red herring; I know of Brit trials that have struggled to get entries to fill their stakes. But year after year they close their trials to only Brits. Ironically enough, these are the very same walking trials that the general public of all breeds happen to be looking for. As one FT sec here in IL told me "if we open our trials to all breeds, many of our own members won't run their Brits".

Let me paint a very easy picture for you; let's say on one weekend we have a 3 day Brit trial at Des Plaines and a 3 day GSP trial at Pickneyville. Both trials can handle 125 entries. If we opened up the Brit trial to all breeds, and eliminated the "Brit trial only rule" needed for the FC major, then the folks who lived closest to Des Plaines could run that trial, regardless of breed, and the folks closest to Pickneyville could run that trial, regardless of breed. Both clubs still get their 125 entries and make the same amount of money.

I get tired of hearing that a FC Brittany only proved he could beat other Brittanys. Well, the GSP National Champions only proved they could beat other GSP's.

That's an apples to oranges comparison; the GSP Nat Championship is about finding the best GSP that year. That's why it's a closed event. But the GSP FC was a titled earned by beating all comers, regardless of breed. The same cannot be said for most Brittany FCs. In my mind, it doesn't make the Brit FC worth any less. To me, this has very little to do with the individual dogs but more to do with the health of the breeds and of the sport.

Don't get me wrong Neil; you Brit folks have built a huge juggernaut of a trial program. I've said many times, and taken a far amount of grief for it, that the GSP folks should stop their obsession with the AF pointer FT model and model ourselves more after what you folks have built. It has been a very sucessfull program in the "boom times" but once the baby boomers start aging out of the sport I can't see how it will remain feasible.

All for now - more later.

JMO,
Dave

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Neil, c'mon out here, all of our stakes are all breed and we seldom even have enough dogs to force us to close the trials.

Back to the point though, I agree that walking stakes are needed. However, many clubs are short of money, help, and grounds. Even in a gigantic state like Texas we have few grounds available period. Of those, many will not accomodate an All Age stake, although we're faking it this year at our fall trial. But, on little properties, often 2,000 acres, but still not enough open country to run AA stakes, we will have OP, OD, OGD, and AGD. Maybe add a Limited on Friday. With only one course, we can realistically run only 75 dogs or so over two days and 105 over three days with those stakes. Now, we decide to add an Amateur Walking Derby, Amateur Walking Puppy, Amateur Limited Gun Dog and make them all walking, which two, by definition, must be. We need 6 more judges, around 150 additional birds, dog wagon drivers, horse trailer to haul judges most likely, marshalls, line help, etc. So, we run an additional 40 dogs and bring in an additional $1,600. We spend $500 on birds, $6 per dog we run to the grounds for a total of $240, additional judges expenses, motels, diesel, gifts, food, for another $700 at best. We're now at about break even. We have to find these judges, have the additional grounds, find the 6 more qualified judges with judges' qualifications being tighter, etc.

However, the flip side, we add stakes to a trial so entrants don't have to travel any more, costs are same for them, except for entry fees, so it makes sense for entrants.

Labor is hard to find, expenses keep going up, grounds are closing, it's harder for people to afford the sport with $5 diesel, $3,000 horses, high dollar trailers, training expenses, entry fees, it ends up being $10,000 to campaign a couple of dogs for a season if you want to truly compete, not just a weekend trial or two.

IMHO, we are getting closer to having trialing and not polo become the true sport of Kings!! Where used to, an old guy making a small salary of say, $80,000 could compete. Now, it's multi-millionaires more often than not.

Possibly, going back to the old days of far more walking events would help many be able to actually trial.

[phermes1]

I'm waiting for the day that AKC puts on the table the idea of letting judges ride ATVs.

I like the vantage point a horse provides and the lack of accompanying engine noise, but I have to admit, all things considered, I'm surprised atv's haven't come up for discussion yet.

[phermes1]

I didn't realize that. Still, I highly doubt that it's a dead issue and won't come up again.

[Neil Mace]

NBHA and some of the other AF walking groups allow the handler to ride ATV's, soon the gallery was buzzing around on them.

I am hope as the converted electric gulf cart gets more affordable (and keeping horses gets less) there be a place for them for handler and judges.

Dave,

I asked you for help in convincing others, I already agree with you. We need a "white paper" to show the benefits to the ABC BoD. The Volunteer Brittany Club, my club, has always opened the walking trials to all breeds and usually the Am GD in the horseback trials. But the only way I sold it was we needed entries. A club that can draw 100 to 200 entries for a weekend trial is going to be unlikely to open it no matter the hardship caused to the participants.

And about the AKC rule, you really think there are dogs out there that can be competitive at the AKC GD Ch and couldn't win a little 13 dog Britt stake?

Neil

[Chief_dog]

I saw an odd one the other day looking at the AKC events page. It was a britt trial in Nebraska I think. Every stake was closed to all other breeds breeds except for one. That stake (I think it was just a derby stake) was open to britts and weims only. I'd never seen that one before.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Maybe Dave or someone else can tell me if I'm wrong but I was of the opinion that you could exclude all other pointing breeds OR you could include, say, all setters, so Gordon,Irish, English only, but I didn't think that a club could select specific non-related breeds to be included, such as "open to Weims, Brits, and Setters". Is that not correct?

[phermes1]

Maybe Dave or someone else can tell me if I'm wrong but I was of the opinion that you could exclude all other pointing breeds OR you could include, say, all setters, so Gordon,Irish, English only, but I didn't think that a club could select specific non-related breeds to be included, such as "open to Weims, Brits, and Setters". Is that not correct?

When you set up stakes via Online Plans on the AKC website, you can select multiple breeds to close a stake to, and it doesn't make any distinction between a setter, pointer, etc. A pointing breed is a pointing breed, basically
The AKC might do something when they review and approve it, but as far as the functionality of Online Plans, it's pretty open.

[Greg Jennings]

Closing a trial to related breeds like Continentials can possibly make sense. Closing a trial to unrelated like Britts and Weims smacks of Home Cookin' to me. Hades would freeze over solid before I'd give that trial my money.

Greg J.

[Karen]

The Brittany trials scheduled for the fall in NE all appear to be open to all breeds. I'd love to know exactly which club you're referring to before everyone gets in a huff.

[lvrgsp]

Greg,
That's why I like the AF walking stakes so much. You show up with your dog, as long as it is an AF registered breed throw it down and run em, plus there close to home the entry fees are usually cheaper than AKC stakes, I do not have to drag a horse or trailer, a few dog boxes some water and bowls turn em loose. Tey are mainly pointer and Setter run clubs but I hav had 4 shorthairs over the years and have ran al of them in these trials and have had them all place, some many times. They are local trials but we have the whole state of IL, and alot of Wi guys are showing up now too, the entries are on the rise, the competition is getting better, and it's still fun, plus Mrs. Green usually has the best brownies ever.
JMO,
Chip

[lvrgsp]

Just something to add here, Rick Rigg and I have been approached about possibly hosting a local walking trial sponsored by our local QU chapter, run by Jerry Johnson, who was a trialer in the day, so were kicking around the idea of having a one day possibly two day walking trial non retrieving. We both have our hands full but it would probably be located here in Central Il. We may try and put something together here by next year.
Just a thought,

Chip

[Greg Jennings]

The Brittany trials scheduled for the fall in NE all appear to be open to all breeds. I'd love to know exactly which club you're referring to before everyone gets in a huff.

Here ya go:
http://www.akc.org/events/search/index_ ... ldr_event=

You'll probably have to paste that into the browser. It's acting weird. In case you don't, I've copied in the information below.

To find this, BTW, I looked at a lot of Brittany trials. Many, many of them all stakes closed to all but Britts. As stated before, I understand some of the reasons for this, but feel that the greater good is better served by all stakes being open (except for breed championships).

So, what's up with the "Gordon Setter, English Setter, Irish Setter" thing? Do they have a conspiracy going?

-----------------------------


Northern Oklahoma Brittany Club
Event No: 2008347302
Lake Murray State Park
Ardmore, OK
Pended
FT Pointing Breed
Closing Date: Tuesday - September 30, 2008

For additional information contact:
Linda Milam, Event Secretary
3175 N Katy Rd
Elm Mott, TX 76640-3436
(254) 829-1498
timkennels@netzero.net

Get Club Info Get Map



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Field Trial (Outdoors)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Start Date: Friday - October 03, 2008 End Date: Sunday - October 05, 2008

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Opening Date: September 15, 2008 Closing Date: September 30, 2008

Judge Panel Status: Pended


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Class Judge

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FT Open Puppy
Brittany Only Dr. Robert A Rankin
Tom Milam

$45.00
FT Open Derby
Brittany,Weimaraner Only UNASSIGNED
UNASSIGNED

$45.00
FT Amateur All-Age
Brittany Only UNASSIGNED
UNASSIGNED

$45.00
FT Open Gun Dog
Brittany Only Dr. Robert A Rankin
Tom Milam

$45.00
FT Open All-Age
Brittany Only UNASSIGNED
UNASSIGNED

$45.00

[Chief_dog]

Thanks Greg. It was Oklahoma, not Nebraska. I just saw it when searching trials in my surrounding states and thought it was odd.

[Karen]

I suspect this is an error on the AKC site, but I'm trying to get an answer on it. I sent an email to the event secretary which was returned undeliverable so I'm trying another avenue.

Some clubs are slow to change, but about half of the spring Brittany trials were open to all breeds this year and I would suspect that trend will continue. The issue my club has run into is we'd open the trial but not get the word out, so we'd get mostly Brittany entries and very few other breeds, then we'd close the next trial because we didn't get enough other breed entries the season/year before and our GD stakes were overflowing anyway, then open it again...and even though we run at great grounds where lots of other breeds train, our lack of consistency took us off the calendar for non-Brittany trialers. North Jersey & DelVal Brittany Club trials are "permanently" open to all breeds so if you're in the Northeast, please come join us.

We see the writing on the wall just like everyone else. Some clubs may need to see a marked decline in entries to open their trials but we all know it's coming.

Edited: The ABC Secretary has confirmed that the Northern OK Trial is open to Brittanys only, so the OD stake open to Britts and Weims is a typo on the AKC site. She has advised the event secretary so that she can have the error corrected.

[Dave Quindt]

The "Brit-Weim" thing I'm certain that's a data entry error; I've seen similar things show up on the AKC website that didn't match the premium. I'm certain this is one of them.

To find this, BTW, I looked at a lot of Brittany trials. Many, many of them all stakes closed to all but Britts. As stated before, I understand some of the reasons for this, but feel that the greater good is better served by all stakes being open (except for breed championships).

One slight problem is that many of the AKC Brittany trials are actually dual-registered AF championships including some of their wild bird trials. But I agree, the half-hour weekend stuff should be open to all breeds, at least for amateur-handled dogs.

So, what's up with the "Gordon Setter, English Setter, Irish Setter" thing? Do they have a conspiracy going?

It's kinda like the Packers with Brett Favre; they want to see him go away but not to any place where he's going to hurt them. Same concept with the setter folks.

JMO,
Dave

[lvrgsp]

It's kinda like the Packers with Brett Favre; they want to see him go away but not to any place where he's going to hurt them. Same concept with the setter folks.

JMO,
Dave

Now that right there is some funny chit, and oh how so very true.

Chip

[Flush]

Curious what all of you folks who are in favor of "open to all breeds" think about AF trials? As far as I know pretty much all American Field trials are open to all breeds, yet I certainly haven't seen many (as in none) short tailed dogs at the trials I have attended (which I admit is limited). I know a few "AKC breeds" occassionally do run, and win, but it's certainly not common to see them running.

If more open trials and more consolidation in the trial world is good, where do the AKC trials versus AF trials fit in all of this?

If more competition is good why not test yourself against the top dogs, the Pointer, and I say that as a Setter guy? I'm pretty confident in saying that chasing the Pointers is forcing folks to breed better Setters (or fall by the wayside). I know on the AKC side some Setter trials are closed, but frankly no one in the AF trial-Setter world is going looking to the AKC Setter pool to improve the breed.

If your argument is the Weim, Britt, or whoever folks should be running against your GSPs, or Britts, or whatever why are you not running against the Pointers? Maybe their reasoning is similiar to yours?

[Greg Jennings]

A few thoughts:

1. GSPs are entering open AF trials. Sometimes they even get a placement.

2. The GSP trials are open to pointers, yet we don't see a lot of them. Why aren't the pointers out there measuring themselves up against the GSPs?

3. There are a few AF walking trials around me. I'd probably hang out with them some if I felt like I was welcome.

SGJ

[Brittguy]

Maybe they think the GSP trials are AKC and since most pointers that trial are only registered in FDSB they wouldn't be eligible.
If anyone is interested in coming, our amateur gun dog and amateur all age is open to all pointing breeds. Weekend of Sept 28th at Killdeer Planes

[lvrgsp]

I run a lot of AF walking trials as a matter of fact I have run in them now for about 13 years, I have not won any shooting dog stakes, I have won a few derbies with my ole man Buster, and placed in some shooting dogs, ( I'm hoping Jack or Jill will change that this year) they have all been shorthairs. It's like anything once they know you and your dogs, and they know what your bringing they give them an honest look as they would any of them, I will say this IMHO style is a little more important to these guys as is the class while running. I love em, were braced with Britts, Pointers, Setters, a few Wires, it's good fun, and for me there all within about 2 hrs so I get to as many as possible, plus the entries are usually cheaper.

JMO,
Chip

[Flush]

Good for you Chip!

Greg and others,
I think the bottom line is most people want to run where they feel welcome, like they will get a fair look, and lastly and maybe most importantly like they have a good chance of success.

No one likes to admit it, but all breeds are not created equal when it comes to American Field "style" field trials. If you don't have a Pointer you are in denial if you think your breed is at the top of the heep when it comes to this form of trialling, like I said I'm a Setter guy, I wish it were Setters, but its not. There are lots of other darn good reasons to have a different breed than a Pointer, but any form of qualitative evidence that your breed overall is more suited to American Field style field-trials isn't one of them.
Of course your personal Britt/GSP/whatever is better than most Pointers, but I'm talking on the whole here.

Pointers (and setters) run in AF trials today that are remarkably similar to what they were a century ago. Most of the other breeds being mentioned in this thread went from no trialing whatsever a hundred years ago to trial formats that are for the most part dead ringers of AF "pointer" trials. The reason Britts and GSPs and others get compared to Pointers is because they decided to play the same basic game the Pointers have been playing for a long time. If you start a retrieving venue that is an exact copy of existing "Lab" trials, expect to get compared to Labs.

Fact is on the whole if you run any breed against the best Pointers, you aren't going to win as much as if you run against other breeds, and it's not just because of bias. Yes, absolutely some Britts and GSPs will beat some Pointers, but overall they will win less because the competition is better. Its the same scenario and argument if all Weims always ran against GSPs.

I agree that more open trials are good for the breeds and good for the sport, but beware when you start pissing on those lower on the totem pole than you, lest you like the warm rain provided by the Pointer boys.

[Chief_dog]

My dogs will be entered in an AF horseback shooting dog trial in the Texas Panhandle in late September because it's only a two and a half hour drive from me. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to be there for a day of it, but a good friend is going to run them for me when I can't be there. Whether they place or not, I'm just thankful for the opportunity to run my dogs close to home.

Now that I live in extreme southwest Kansas, the closest AKC trials for me are in New Mexico and Colorado. I really appreciate the Colorado and New Mexico britt clubs that open their stakes up to all breeds. I just want the opportunity to run my dogs. Traveling expenses are the most expensive part of trialing for me. When I lived in southwest Oklahoma, it sucked having to pass by a britt trial 100 miles away to go to another AKC trial 300 miles away.

[DGFavor]

I have competed much more commonly in open AF club and championship stakes than AKC events and blunder into the winners circle about as much as my pointer and setter owning trialing partners do - there are certainly some individuals we compete against that seem to whoop up on us much more than we whoop up on them, but in general we all seem to share the spotlight equally as luck and good fortune fall our way. Personally, and I don't think I'm in denial nor do I think I've got super special GSP's, I don't see pointers as a dominating breed performance wise but rather a dominating breed numbers wise when you participate in open AF stakes. If a 30 dog stake contains 25 pointers, 4 setters and 1 GSP the odds are pretty good a pointer is going to put together the performance that's going to win. On the flip side, when the GSP Club of Utah holds their open AF stake and the field has 10 GSP's, 2 pointers and a setter, usually a GSP wins. Numbers games. I'm basing this on countless hours hunting, training, and trialing with pointers, setters and GSP's including several that have run at the Ames big show multiple times - I'm hard pressed to tell ya' there is much difference amongst 'em and it mostly boils down to what you make of 'em!

[Flush]

Doug,

I've got a ton of respect for you and when I think of guys going out there and really get it done, regardless of breed, I think of guys like you. In fact don't you often encourage your GSP compatriots to enter AF events and vice versa?

I haven't seen your dogs run, but I know they are good, course I doubt your dogs or their training is "average" either

I Agree it's a number game, but I think there is much to be learned by thinking about why the numbers are what they are? I think you have to ask yourself why is it the guys who really want to win at the bigtime (like Ames for example) aren't breeding Britts or Weims or even GSPs for that matter? Statitics just tell you part of the story. Setters tend to win at about the percentage they are entered as Pointers. No doubt certain Setters, like a few your run/trial with, can put it down with any Pointer out there. That doesn't mean we Setters folks have the breed on par with the Pointers when it comes to trials. The number of current Setter lines that compete with the Pointers at the higher levels is actually quite small, much of it from the efforts of a small number of folks you know in your region. Plenty of Setter breeders don't WANT a setter on par with a Pointer, thats fine but it restricts the breed in terms of kick-butt trial winning breeding prospects. It's hard to have it both ways.

Anyway my real point wasn't to try to prove the superiority of Pointers, it was for people to not look down their noses on breeds competing on a restricted playing field when the majority of their breed is particapting in the same practice to a degree, if not by rule, in practive . I think there are pros and cons, it's not a right vs. wrong deal.

[Greg Jennings]

Flush,

You're basically making the same argument that half my post is about. Simply that all the breeds will get better by virtue of better competition if we open the stakes.

I'm not "worried" about pointers. If I'm welcome and my dog will get fair judging, I'm happy just being there. If home cooking goes on, against me or anyone else, I just won't come back...and I'll use my "bully pulpit" to influence others to do the same.

Greg J.

[chris andrews]

The United Bird Hunters is an American Field Santioned Walking Trial that is open to all breed. Out Hunting Dog that is sponsored by QU is open to all pointing breeds. I don't think I will have a problem competing with my long tail or my short tail dogs.

People just need to have fun at these events, and the events and memberships will grow. The high competitive atmosphere can drive many folks away. We should be competitive, but we should always be helpful to new comers.

[Greg Jennings]

Thank you, Chris. I'll be watching The Field for an announcement of a trial in my area.

Greg J.