How many birds? / How many days?

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How many birds? / How many days?

Post by bhairhoger » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:26 am

I already posted some pictures that I took while trying to get Bryant steady to wing and shot. My question is, how many times a week does everyone work there dog on birds?

In the past I always gone by the rule of 3 (3 birds, 3 times a week). I know every dog is different and you have to be able to read your dog but I wanted to see what other techniques people use.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:30 am

When breaking, 1 bird, 3 x a week. For the older dogs, they can go months without a bird.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:20 pm

Every other day works well. Number of birds depends on what I'm seeing. They do a couple right, thats enought. They do a couple wrong, back to the yard for a touch up. All depends on the dog.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by tailcrackin » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:59 pm

When breaking, 1 bird, 3 x a week. For the older dogs, they can go months without a bird
Hi Karen, I am curious on this reply, is this situation, is this what or how your trainer does, or yourself? I dont understand, on the what and why, on the amount of birds, or the times a week. Would like to discuss this a little bit further. Thanks, Jonesy
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:14 pm

Jonesy, I use a trainer. He works young dogs every other day, 99% of the time on just 1 bird. He works his finished string the days he's not breaking the young dogs. This is the way he's found works best for him, and he's been pretty successful doing things this way (not the "small town trainer" Don refers to below).
Last edited by Karen on Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:58 pm

Jonesy,

Though you didn't get your answer, I do know a small time pro that brags he works his clients dogs twice a week for ten min each time. Shoot I can't plant the birds in ten minutes! :D
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by nitrex » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:03 pm

Don wrote:Jonesy,

Though you didn't get your answer, I do know a small time pro that brags he works his clients dogs twice a week for ten min each time. Shoot I can't plant the birds in ten minutes! :D

You could if you plant them in the kennel runs!!!

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by tailcrackin » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:02 pm

So, what is the general time length to get the dog broke. I know there isnt a set time, but a usually in this time, ........"I am, or should be here"...... statement. Thanks, Jonesy
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:12 am

I'm kind of interested too. How can older dogs go "months" without a bird contact? What are they being trained to do?
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by snips » Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:30 am

I would hate to think how long it would take me to train a dog on 3 birds a week. Sure would be cheaper tho :D
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:52 am

gonehuntin' wrote:I'm kind of interested too. How can older dogs go "months" without a bird contact? What are they being trained to do?
These are older, experienced field trial dogs. Too many birds will take some of the run out of them over time, so after field trial season, they're run and kept in shape, but birds are kept at a minimum until immediately before the season starts. If there are birds loose and they find them, it's fine, but birds aren't planted specifically for them.
snips wrote:I would hate to think how long it would take me to train a dog on 3 birds a week. Sure would be cheaper tho :D
Pete must just be THAT GOOD! :wink: Typically he's got a hunting dog broke in 3-4 months...same as everyone else. A trial dog is DEVELOPED, not rushed through to competition, and then transitioned over to their owner to handle, so a finished, nicely polished trial dog takes around 18 months (depending on the dog AND the owner), but they're as broke as can be, back, handle stop to flushes, and run a nice horseback pattern.

Don has been involved in conversations where Pete's credentials have been questioned in the past. Instead of going down that path again, here's his website.

http://www.longviewkennels.com/training.htm
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by bobman » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:27 am

My older dogs don't see any birds other than meadow larks and a few woodcock in winter from hunting season to hunting season, they do fine. I do wish there were birds here
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:34 pm

Karen wrote:When breaking, 1 bird, 3 x a week. For the older dogs, they can go months without a bird.
I'm not sure what your saying karen nor that its Pete's credibility that is called into question. One bird three times a week to break a dog is what you claim Pete does. Somehow I doubt that. Then you say "for the older dogs, they can go months without a bird". Then you tell gonehuntin' that these are "older experienced trial dogs. To many birds will take the run out of them.....". Really?
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:05 pm

Don wrote:Every other day works well. Number of birds depends on what I'm seeing. They do a couple right, thats enought. They do a couple wrong, back to the yard for a touch up. All depends on the dog.
Is it so hard to believe that a professional trainer whose been at this for 30 years and has broken 100's of dogs may be able to get a dog broke with 1 bird every other day instead of a couple birds every other day as you stated above?

The whole point of doing 1 bird a day is to end on a good note with that one bird and have them learn something good from it instead of letting them do "a couple wrong" as you put it above, and learn the wrong thing, and then have to undo it.

Makes perfect sense to me.

And guess what else??? He doesn't teach WHOA!! Did that blow your mind or what?? :D :D
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Better Birddogs » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:16 pm

Karen how do you stop a dog with no collar or verbal command.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:58 pm

Better Birddogs wrote:Karen how do you stop a dog with no collar or verbal command.
I guess my answer to this is I've never had a need to stop my dog verbally. His recall is darned near perfect, I can turn him by simply pointing my horse in the direction I want the dog to go, I can give him a command to keep him within 10 yards of my horse and I can heel him back to camp without a rope if I choose to. Standing until the shot is incorporated in birdwork so no additional command is necessary there, and the same goes for stop to flushes and backing.

I can see a practical use for whoa when hunting...stopping a dog before it gets to a street possibly, but come works for that too and if they ignore come, they'll probably ignore whoa also. Either one has to be flawless to be useful in dangerous situation.

I know whoa is thought by some to be of primary importance, and is thought to be absolutely necessary to steady a dog and teach backing, but my dogs don't know it, they are thoroughly broke, stop to flush and back.

Just a different way of doing things.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Maurice » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:37 pm

Karen's trainer Pete is the real deal, does a super nice job with the dogs.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:05 pm

Karen,

Got an e-mail back from Pete this evening. He says: "Yes, at a point in the breaking process less is better. That I'll buy. I think you've missed something somewhere.

Early on in the breaking process you have to take the dog from steady to wing, then steady to shot then steady to fall. If you do one bird each day, the dog will likely never do it right. But after you have the dog to a point where it will finally stand to the shot and the fall, then the less you do it, the better. But first you have to get it there. It's the gettin' it there that most likely won't happen with one bird three times a week. And the gettin' there is a part of the process.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:42 am

Maurice wrote:Karen's trainer Pete is the real deal, does a super nice job with the dogs.

Mo
Mo; I don't think anyone on here is doubting Pete, we're doubting Karen. It's not uncommon for a client to mis-understand or mis-construe something their trainer has said. I think that is the case here.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:30 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Mo; I don't think anyone on here is doubting Pete, we're doubting Karen. It's not uncommon for a client to mis-understand or mis-construe something their trainer has said. I think that is the case here.
You know Don & gonehuntin, Pete's breaking my 3rd dog, but I must just be a ditsy brunette who doesn't have a CLUE what her trainer is doing, even though I make the trip out to watch and help twice a week.

He MUST be using 20 birds daily, sneaking back to the training grounds after the clients leave and whipping out his box of pigeons and putting all those young dogs on countless birds. And while he's doing that, he's teaching Whoa without us knowing too.

Oh well, you all should obviously use MORE birds, not less. Heck, twice a day, every day put those doggies out on a dozen birds. Happy training!
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by bobman » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:37 am

We get into some real dumb argments, adult dogs can go for months without pointing a bird and do fine, mine do every year. I never go out when its hot I'm too fat for that weather :D

Karen,

I will have to disagree with one thing you said about the "Whoa" command it is able to do something the "come" command cannot and that is stop a dog thats already on the other side of a road and coming toward you with a vehicle approaching.

That has saved my dogs many times over the years and I encourage everyone to teach whoa, its a very easy command to teach and has no downside I am aware of.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:42 am

bobman, I do see a practical application for whoa, especially for hunting dogs, but it's the thinking that whoa is absolutely necessary as a building block to steadying and backing that is a misconception. And it sure is pretty to watch someone very quietly ride up to their dog, dismount and go in and flush a bird without saying a word.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by bobman » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:04 am

No problem I just wanted to make that point incase any newbees were reading this thread for their dogs sake.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by honeyrun » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:39 am

I know whoa is thought by some to be of primary importance, and is thought to be absolutely necessary to steady a dog and teach backing, but my dogs don't know it, they are thoroughly broke, stop to flush and back.
Sounds good to me, as this is the same for my dogs also.

If I am hunting near a road, I usually make sure that I am walking on the road (read in as Forest Roads and SGL roads - dirt)and the dog is working both sides. Otherwise, all my covers are far enough away from roads that I don't need to worry. If I need to hunt a cover that is close to a well traveled road, I pull out one of my older seasoned dogs that will stay in the cover and not wonder onto the road.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by nitrex » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:43 am

Karen wrote:bobman, I do see a practical application for whoa, especially for hunting dogs, but it's the thinking that whoa is absolutely necessary as a building block to steadying and backing that is a misconception. And it sure is pretty to watch someone very quietly ride up to their dog, dismount and go in and flush a bird without saying a word.
Karen,

I ride up quietly to my dogs, dismount and go flush birds without saying a word when they are finished. But whoa is foundational in my training - at the beginning of formally teaching them to be STWS and backing. Whoa is just a cue, and now the scent of the bird is a cue to hold point, STWS&F. With enough repetitions, I can drop the word "whoa" after my dogs establish point. For me whoa is a intermediate cue on the way to having a finished dog. My dogs where pretty staunch on point before learning whoa, but it is the method I use to develop them to be "dead broke." There are other methods that don't use whoa, but to think everyone that trains whoa will always have to "whoa" their dog on point is incorrect.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:04 am

nitrex wrote:There are other methods that don't use whoa, but to think everyone that trains whoa will always have to "whoa" their dog on point is incorrect.

Nitrex
I don't recall saying that. Can you show me where?

I once ran into a trainer who had no idea how to train a dog to back without that dog knowing whoa. They said that, even though the dog was broke, they'd need to train whoa first. Even got out the whoa post to show me how. The whole point of bringing whoa up was to impress on some of the people on this board that there are many ways to train the same skill....even breaking a dog with 1 bird every other day :D
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by wbockman » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:16 am

I train at Water N Wings also, now I've only been actually going steadily for the last few months once I got my own setter Emerald but I'm there almost every week day and depending on what stage the dogs are at I've seen them use ONE bird to train a bunch of dogs to point when they were only working on pointing.

When they are working on steady to flush and shot they have to put out a new bird for each dog, but as long as it goes well that's all they normally do is one bird that day for that dog. I would say you can do more than that of course, but I sure wouldn't over do it.

Once they graduate to pointing birds while running then I've seen them put 2 or 3 birds out around the field and let the dog find and point, then the handler flushes and fires the blank, and they move on down the field just like at a field trial.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:22 am

Thank you Wendy.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by phermes1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:49 am

One bird a day ... OK, stupid question - what if the dog blows up on that one bird?

And without whoa - what do you do when the dog blows up in the field? I mean - c'mon, nobody's dog is perfect, even the most broke dog reverts back to derby dog every once in a while...

Hey, if 1 bird a day works, roll with it - I'm not one to question it. I'd be interested in hearing the entire process, though, as I think we've only heard a small portion of it so far.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by wbockman » Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:23 pm

phermes1 wrote:One bird a day ... OK, stupid question - what if the dog blows up on that one bird?

And without whoa - what do you do when the dog blows up in the field?
Well what do you do if your dog blows up in the field? Tell it to whoa afterwards?

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by phermes1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:10 pm

Point being - if the dog blows up, and you've used your one bird for that session - do you call it a day? To each his own, if it works, roll with it, but personally, I'd rather put another bird out and have the dog do it right before ending the session.

And yes, actually - if my dog blows up in the field, I usually whoa it vs just letting it chase.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by sambuca » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:31 pm

Karen is correct. Pete alternates broke dogs one day and young dogs the next. For the dogs being steadied to wing and shot, they each get one bird on their day out. If they don't get it right they are put right away but when they make progress, he praises the heck out of them. I have never seen him put out a second bird. Pete has incredible patience with his dogs. I'm not speaking for him but if I had to guess, I bet he would rather take one step back in a day than three.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:14 pm

wbockman wrote:Once they graduate to pointing birds while running then I've seen them put 2 or 3 birds out around the field and let the dog find and point, then the handler flushes and fires the blank, and they move on down the field just like at a field trial.
Wendy
In the E-mail I got from Pete he said that at some point in the breaking process, This above is part of the process. In the final stage of breaking, I can believe he'd use one bird. But until he lays all the rest of the ground work, one bird won't do. If he did, the dog would quit after getting it's one bird.

I think what we have here is different interpations of what the breaking process is. It starts before the actual steady to kill, the foundation has to be laid. If in fact he only ever put a dog on one bird a day every other day, it would not be long before the dog learned to find one and call it a day. Laying the foundation for breaking is every bit as important as the actual breaking itself.

I have had another e-mail from him and he believes much as I do. Many people ruin good dogs with to many birds. And I suspect if you were to ask him you'd find that everything he's doing is leading up to being broke. It sound's to me as though Some of you think the only part of breaking is the final stage. Not hardly!
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:26 pm

Don, this has become ridiculous and so not worth my time anymore.

Believe whatever you want but you've had 3 different people on this thread say they've never seen Pete put out more than 1 bird per dog. 1 BIRD PER DOG!! We do not have different interpretations of the breaking process. He simply doesn't use more than 1 bird per dog as hard as that is to believe.

I'm done now and tomorrow I will be apologizing to Pete for getting him involved in this inadvertently while I watch my dog work her 1 BIRD.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by WildRose » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:40 pm

Personally when I'm setting up to do general bird work I always set up to work each dog on three birds. Normally I'll have three launchers out, one bird in each and each dog goes from one to the next.

With the birds spaced twenty to forty yards a part it takes about 1-2 minutes to replant them all. It takes far longer to switch dogs (seven on the line at a time so it can take a half hour or more to switch strings) than it does to plant birds.

The biggest thing to me is that I see dogs advancing MUCH faster when they work multiple birds than with one bird per session.

Also I always like to quit when I can on a positive note. I hate putting a dog up for the day after a mistake. If you are only working one bird and the dog screws that up, that's going to be the last thing on his mind from the session. I think we get a lot further a lot quicker when the day ends on a positive.

When I'm steadying a dog completely I think it's even more important that the last impression of the day is a good one, for both of us.

I've kown a lot of trainers though over the years that were dead set believers in working each dog every other day, one bird per dog and they get along ok. Just seems better and more efficient use of my time though to do it my way.

I'm also not at all opposed to working a dog a second or third time with a break in between if they just aren't getting it that day. CR
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by snips » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:01 am

We do much like CR on steadying process. As dogs progress I like to take them out finding leftovers and handling them. More hunting and not so controlled.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:36 am

I also do it similar to Charlie. I use three traps but I set them much farther apart. I may only let the dog have two of the birds if it does both well or if it does them bad, thats enought, no reason to expect the next time will be better. One good one and then a bad one, I don't like to quit on a mistake either. Then I back up a bit before going on. I have seldom done only one bird, the problem being when I did the dogs got used to one bird and quit. But I do work the dogs maybe every other day, sometimes every third day.

Pete did say a number of things in his e-mail that I do agree with but the thing that got me by surprise was something to the effect that many people do mess up dogs by using to many birds. That I absolutely believe, most the time, less is more, Pete's words. On these web sites we are constantly hammered with the idea that you need lots of birds to train the dog. I don't buy that. What you need are lots of birds to give the dog experience on when your done. If you give them to many birds and they're having problems, your confusing the dog. The road is to up and down for the dog and while we understand what we think we want, we confuse the dog. I really wish that Pete could have been here to explain his methods a lot more, I think the idea is interesting and certainly with merit. Just don't understand quite how it works and how he avoids the pitfall of the dog finding one bird and quiting on him.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:20 pm

I too have always thought that the last thing a pup needs is birds. Once you find the puppy has desire( an old time word meaning prey drive today) there are many other things to spend your time on in the first year. If you have a lot of birds and the pup find them no problem but I can;t remember planting birds for a pup during the first year. Once the pup matures enough to start formal training then is when you need birds. But even then the more you use the greater the chance for error.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:11 pm

Don, I saw Pete today and he suggested that you call him. He said he'd be happy to give you a detailed explanation of his breaking process, including the how's and why's.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:02 pm

I will do that. I don't doubt he does But I'd sure like to know something about it.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:17 pm

Karen -

How is Pete doing? It has been a very long time since I have seen him. Does he still hit that hot dog place for lunch? Those were some dynamite tube steaks!

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:38 am

WildRose wrote:Personally when I'm setting up to do general bird work I always set up to work each dog on three birds. Normally I'll have three launchers out, one bird in each and each dog goes from one to the next.

With the birds spaced twenty to forty yards a part it takes about 1-2 minutes to replant them all. It takes far longer to switch dogs (seven on the line at a time so it can take a half hour or more to switch strings) than it does to plant birds.

The biggest thing to me is that I see dogs advancing MUCH faster when they work multiple birds than with one bird per session.

Also I always like to quit when I can on a positive note. I hate putting a dog up for the day after a mistake. If you are only working one bird and the dog screws that up, that's going to be the last thing on his mind from the session. I think we get a lot further a lot quicker when the day ends on a positive.

When I'm steadying a dog completely I think it's even more important that the last impression of the day is a good one, for both of us.

I've kown a lot of trainers though over the years that were dead set believers in working each dog every other day, one bird per dog and they get along ok. Just seems better and more efficient use of my time though to do it my way.

I'm also not at all opposed to working a dog a second or third time with a break in between if they just aren't getting it that day. CR
Now that post makes sense.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:36 pm

Ray, Pete is doing great. He's been following this thread with some amusement and is really hoping that Don will call him.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:51 pm

Karen -

See if you can get that old curmudgeon to come across the river for the Sussex trial this Labor Day weekend at the setter club. I'd love to see him and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm running dogs on Saturday(amateur stakes) but I will probably go up there on Friday. if my young female doesn't come into heat, I'll probably run her in the Am. Walking SD. That should be a hoot.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Don » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:33 pm

Ray,

Talked to Pete this afternoon. He says hi. Will start a new thread.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Better Birddogs » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:50 pm

I run my dogs on all the birds they can find until they are two and I don't do a lot with them formally but make them handle and pattern them. I let the birds they encounter teach them manners. In 95% of dogs I have this is a natural occurence and in about 5% I have to intervene. Once my dogs are pointing and holding birds on their own then I will go to putting manners on them. I don't break young dogs as a rule for me. I'm not into derby championships I'm into finished shootings so I take my time with my dogs and break them when they are ready. That isn't always the same for each dog either. Many of you know that though.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Kiki's Mom » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:37 am

I feel compelled to jump in now to put the record a tad straighter on something you posted in this thread. Although you did not mention names I will step up and admit who you were referring to here.

That claim you made about the trainer who "has no idea how to teach a dog to back without the "whoa" is incorrect. You completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what he was trying to point out to you at that time ( which was that the incorporation of the whoa command was helpful as well an integral step of the INTERMEDIATE breaking process for HIS WAY of doing things , to help caution and get your dog stopped before a mistake could be made) AND at that time you yourself were at a point with your dog that you were frustrated that the breaking/developing process was taking so long, that your dog was STILL not backing properly. Blaze had JUST blown the back in front of you after being in training for a little better then a year. It was very interesting to make a note too of the situation there because your dog blew the back with a strange bracemate he did not know or respect but then turned around and honored your house dog, Courage beautifully - a dog he knew as well as respected.

Since the Whoa command was entirely foreign to you at that time, Brian also took the time to take you over to show you how he taught that command so that you would be clear on how it came into play in your dog's head. You were casting about for an alternative to what you had been doing for your dog and yourself at that time and you were offered another method of thinking. Nothing less nothing more.

The spin you put on that entire situation here was not to that end.

Brian teaches the dogs that do not naturally want to honor mostly without the whoa command. He just stops them with the e-collar on the flank just as I am sure Pete does. He prefers to use the BIRDS and the idea that to see another dog standing means that there are BIRDS up ahead and that the opportunity for Bird work will ALWAYS be present when the other dog is standing.

Every trainer does things a bit differently and to each his own. Pete''s methods are working for you and several others, which is wonderful for you.

But to make assumptions and publically state things like "the trainer who has no idea how to teach a dog to back without the "whoa" is not only rude, it is not factual.

And yes...it IS a beautiful thing to watch a handler ride quietly up to his dog without screaming "whoa" :wink: But it is an even MORE beautiful thing to have that same dog handled around the course without much voice/whistle handling at ALL - to complete the picture of the "polished performance from start to finish. To have to sing a dog around the GUN DOG course ( where the standard specifically says "to be handled with a MINIMUM of NOISE), whistling and hollaring makes that beautiful quiet bird work seem almost invisable sometimes in the overall performance picture.
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Better Birddogs » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:02 am

Helen are you opposed to singing to dogs as a rule or just in gundog stakes.

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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by Karen » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:05 am

I stand corrected. I apparently assumed wrong when Brian said something to the effect of "If he doesn't know whoa, how do you teach him to back?"

It's good to know of your strong distaste of singing a dog around the course....we'll make sure not to run under you. :wink:
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Re: How many birds? / How many days?

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:19 am

it sure is nice with a dog learns cues where one doesn't have to verbaly hack their dog...
Helen don't you and Brian have a strong base of Rick Smith in your program...

and ...As for singing which is basically hacking a dog around the field ...Sure glad I don't hunt woth people like that...would make for a miserable after noon to have to listen to someone making noise all day :wink:
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