EP sire question

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:06 pm

I just wanted to hear some opinions on English Pointer sires. Which are the most famous sires out there that are or were "Known for their Bird Finding ability" above all else?
I realize this will be anyones opinion. But, I would like to hear some thoughts on the subject. I have heard a couple opinions, but would like to hear others.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:23 pm

Ok, I'll start by listing a couple old dogs of the past that I have heard people mention in this regard.
Dunn's Fearless Bud and Guardrail.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:26 pm

Whippoorwill Wild Again - 2008 National Champion

Elhew Snakefoot
Evolution
Builder's Addition
Additions Go Boy
Flatwood Hank

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:43 pm

Slate Creek Doc
Branscum Nickle
Miller Attitude crosses are very nice
Red Water Rex
Fiddler

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:02 am

Riggins White Knight

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:21 pm

My opinion is that Shadow's Attitude pups have some of the best noses I have ever seen and all of the Guard Rail stuff just seems to know "how" to find birds.

If I was looking for the BEST hunting EP I could find I would have one of each. If I could only have one it would have as much Guard Rail as I could get. JMO.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:46 am

Rebel Wrangler,,,,,,,, anybody ever heard of him?

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:48 am

Guard Rail,,,, I heard those lines have alot of cancer. Dogs live to be 5.25 and fall over dead?

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:27 am

Guard Rail,,,, I heard those lines have alot of cancer. Dogs live to be 5.25 and fall over dead?

That's funny.

Actually, the Guard Rail line is known for longevity. There are lines that are known for cancel though, Honky Tonk for instance. But I still love the noses out of the Honly Tonk stuff.

Funny you should mention Rebel Wrangler because Guard Rail is closer to A Rambling Rebel than Rebel Wrangler was. I have always considered Guard Rail to be a "Rebel" bred dog.

Another GREAT bird finder was Ch. Whippoorwill's Rebel. I had pups from him that were incredible bird dogs.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:41 am

I have always been happy with the "Gunsmoke " bred dogs that I have had over the years, in terms of bird finding ability. To be fair, all of them did have a generous amount of Guard Rail and Evolution blood in there also.

In terms of today's dogs, one of the very best "bird finders" I have seen in the last ten years is Sugarknoll Buckshot. He always seems to have his birds well located(not too far...not to close) and seems also to have very, very few unproductive points, even on pheasants, which are notorious for running outfrom under a dog's point.

RayG

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:59 am

R-Heaton- Yeah, I've heard of Rebel Wrangler. He was out of Mr. Jim Tune's Oklahoma bird dog named Jumper Jim and I think a bitch named Swing Along. I have a picture of Jumper Jim at the breakaway at Ames. Jim Tune was a good friend of my grandad. They say Mr. Jim Tune played basketball in high school. People around town said he could really jump, so they called him Jumper Jim. I guess when Mr. Jim Tune found that right dog, he named him Jumper Jim.

Bill Hunt up here at Dancyville, TN handled Rebel Wrangler. I was over at his place last year. He's got a headstone in his front yard when you drive up. It has several of the nicest dogs he ever handled to wins on it. Rebel Wrangler is enscribed on that headstone. I'd say he must have been a whale of a dog. He won alot of Championships. I think he won the National Free for All in 1988. I don't think they ever chose to run him at Ames though.

As far as the cancer in bird dogs goes, I'm not sure which bloodlines are more prone to it.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:35 am

Rich, ya' kill me man. How do you know Rebel Wrangler? Sounds like a set up from Charlie Frank to me!!

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:53 am

Fiddler?I thought he was the EP whose lines were predispositioned to have cancer and pack it in early.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:18 am

Wildweeds wrote:Fiddler?I thought he was the EP whose lines were predispositioned to have cancer and pack it in early.

Thats correct, far too many die young from cancer in the line. I lost a very nice three year old to it a couple of years back, he was double bred Fiddlers Gold with Ace on the top side. Never have heard that about Guard Rail.

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:19 pm

Maybe I'm wrong about Guard Rail.

I might has well throw Silver Strike and Elhew Copperstrike in there too.
I heard those two dogs could find birds when nobody else could and they could do it in 100 degree weather. I believe at one time Silver Strike per times bred had produced more champions than any other dog.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:00 pm

I'm not sure why cancer came into this thread? But, since it did, how did Bayou Teche Willie Die? Please don't take me the wrong way, I had heard Willie had died young and was a great dog, but I don't know how he died.

I was asking what sire's in the EP world "were" or "are" known for their bird finding abilities. Anyone more opinions out there?

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:29 pm

R-Heaton wrote:Guard Rail,,,, I heard those lines have alot of cancer. Dogs live to be 5.25 and fall over dead?

Gene would be amazed to hear that. Don't you have a Guardrail Attitude bitch , Ross ? ( really nice website).

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:49 pm

As far as a newbie I would think that Sir lancelot would be considered a "Birdfinder" from his performance at the national a couple years back.I've seen some pictures of dogs he's thrown and they look to be quite nice.

I've almost got a hankering for a GOOD pointer,the one I have is a genetic misfit and I should have blue juiced him long ago,actually his whole litter should have been given a nice cold bath at birth,not one of the 12 turned into anything.Not much on pointing or finding and really good at running...................mostly off.

I've been quite impressed with the looks, performance and production record of Rock Acre Blackhawk.

BrettBryan · Post by **BrettBryan** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:26 pm

Wildweeds, I rode that day that Sir Lancelot was braced with Miller's Online up at the national a few years back. It was an impressive brace. I think Online notched 6 finds and Lancelot notched 11 finds. I thought I had just seen the winner in Lancelot. But, with about 15 minutes to go in that 3 hr. endurance heat, he broke on his 11th find and took some steps at a bird that flew right at him. Mr. Hoyle didn't flush that 11th find because he was back looking for Lancelot, who had been out of pocket for a few minutes. I think it was the scout or the other part owner that flushed for Sir Lancelot. It was heartbreaking for the gallery. I know it had to be heartbreaking to Hoyle Eaton and the others who have an interest in him.
But, yeah, Sir Lancelot was there for one thing imo. He was hunting birds. There was no path running. He was down to business and he knew what he was doing that day. He was impressive to me that day.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:38 pm

O h.....What a heartbreak. Can you imagine? You ruined my day..........

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:35 pm

Gene would be amazed to hear that. Don't you have a Guardrail Attitude bitch , Ross ? ( really nice website).

Sharon,

I'll see Gene in a few days now that he is back in SC. I talked to him last week. What a gentleman! (I probably won't mention the Internet rumors about Guard Rail.)

I want Guard Rail in everything I own. I have a direct daughter and am trying to get another. Great bird dogs IMO.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:01 pm

Gene wouldn't remember me but what a fine man he is and what a plus for the field trial community for all these years. I was thrilled when he was accepted into the Hall of Fame. If he could help a beginner he would be glad to and does he know dogs!! I could sit in a chair next to him for hours and learn from the master. He told me once that his Guard Rail pups were born broke.

PS When he was younger he used to come up to Ontario for the Canadian Championship.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:45 pm

Sharon,

I love every minute I spend with him. He left me a voice mail last week and said "Hey Ross Callaway, Gene Casale here, Just got back. Give me a call if you want to run some dogs, tell some fibs or just talk...."

Big smile here!! Can't wait to see him!!

....and his Guard Rail pups are born broke!!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:05 am

Maybe I'm wrong about Guard Rail.

Remember that time at the Overland, after a "few" beers, you were blabbin' up some big story adventure you had had...then just at the end when it was getting good, you remembered it wasn't actually your story but one someone else had told ya'. Not sure why, that just came to mind...you at the Overland??

....and his Guard Rail pups are born broke!!

Gettin' deep in here!!

R-Heaton · Post by **R-Heaton** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:23 am

Yea,,,, that was a funny arse story,,,, as it turns out it actually didn't happen I just thought it would have been funny if it would have happend.

Just goes to show you,,, you can't believe everything you hear on the internet.

Born broke,,,, reminds me of this time I was at the Overland telling this story,,,, oh wait,,, you already heard that one.

rich · Post by **rich** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:40 pm

IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A LIVE AND LIVING POINTER THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR STUDDING YOU MAY WANT TO TRY SIR LANCELOT. HIS OWNER AND HANDER IS HOYLE EATON.THIS DOG HAD 11 FINDS IN THE 2005 NATIONAL FIELD TRIAL, HELD EACH FEB. AT THE AMES PLANTATION IN TENN.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:30 pm

Rich -

Do you have a pedigree, with wins, that includes Sir Lancelot? I am curious, in particular, about his sire, MIRACULOUS and his grandsire EBENEEZER. I never heard of either dog, never read anything about them in the Field and was just curious if either of them had ever placed in any trials.

I find it somewhat unusual that while most successful open all age dogs seem to have a fairly unbroken line of successful all age parentage, both top and bottom, Lancelot seems to have arizen from relatively unknown parents. The only ancestor that is familiar to me is Crow's Little Joe and he was a NSTRA dog(and apparently a very good one at that).

RayG

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:24 pm

I am curious, in particular, about his sire, MIRACULOUS and his grandsire EBENEEZER.

Maybe they go back to Mac's Kelly Patrick...

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:19 am

BrettBryan wrote:I'm not sure why cancer came into this thread? But, since it did, how did Bayou Teche Willie Die? Please don't take me the wrong way, I had heard Willie had died young and was a great dog, but I don't know how he died.

I was asking what sire's in the EP world "were" or "are" known for their bird finding abilities. Anyone more opinions out there?

Bayou Teche Willie died in the roading harness when Wayne Strickland was road him and the other dogs, it was some freak thing that happened, heart attack I think. Willie was about 4 years old. He was 1 heck of a trial dog, I ran against him and Wayne alot and Willie was tough to beat.

The old Flush bred dogs in the past were always strong bird dogs and tough as a boot. I have always liked the Fiddler line, mostly from Fiddlers Pride and never had any health problems other than cherry eye in some litters.. Branscum's Nickel was a strong bird dog that produced the same in his pups, big nose and tremendous bottom. You will find alot of good pointer blood out there.

Mo

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:26 am

Lancelots parents were not trialed. From what I have found out "on the street"
Will agree with what Mo says with the fiddler blood. If not mistaken, Fiddler lived till 13 or 14, along with Fiddlers Ace. A buddy of mine has double bred f.ace great and grand daughter, she is 13 almost 14.
Branscum's Nickel died at 14. Along with Fiddler line, Branscum's Nickel help produce alotta nice dogs.
Thanks Jonesy

rich · Post by **rich** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:24 pm

Millers silver bullet was a great sire and has sired more champions the all the other sires put togther

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:38 pm

Rich -

Regarding Miller's Silver Bullett.

Yes he did sire a large number of champions...if he did indeed, in fact, sire them. Without DNA confirmation it is entirely possible that pups ascribed to Bullet may well have been sired by other Miller dogs. Remember whom we are dealing with here. Ferrell Miller was a gifted and dedicated trainer, handler and breeder. But he was also a confirmed cheat.

Now you also need to consider the numbers. Miller's Silver Bullett is recorded as the sire of literally thousands of puppies. Considering the staggereing number of progeny and the fact that his progeny wee placed with some of the best all age folks and thus given the best of chances, the number of champions he produced is not at all remarkable. Quite the contrary actually. If some of "the other dogs" sired as many puppies as Bullett was supposed to have, they would have produced far, far more champions.

You need to look at Frank Thompson's work on pointer sires and their production records. it is very interesting stuff.

RayG

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:00 pm

I'd have to go back through my fields but.........................................wasn't the sire Correct?Wasn't the owner of the sire Ferrell.Wasn't the Dam the part of the equation that did not match up?Seems as if Ol Ferrell got misrepresentation FIRST from the owner of the dam.

If I show up at your place with a female I want to breed and falsely advertise her on paper breeding to you in order to gain consideration for a breeding?How in the heck do you check that out? If two or three litters are whelped at the same timeframe by the owner of the dam and one litter seems to be a better seller than another and the paperwork has yet to be applied for.......................A dam that whelps 6 hot sellers can be represented as having had 10-12.I personally do not know,nor have ever met Mr. Miller but I personally think that after the finding he got the raw deal on behalf of a BIG CHEATER.I suppose it could be summed up one of two ways...................In the wrong place at the right time or...................Birds of a feather flock together.

="RayGubernat"]Rich -

. Ferrell Miller was a gifted and dedicated trainer, handler and breeder. But he was also a confirmed cheat.

.

RayG[/quote]

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:56 pm

Wildweeds -

This was not Mr. Miller's first rodeo. This was not his first confirmed infraction. He was a successful bird dog breeder, both from financial and from a product standpoint. You do not get to be that successful by not knowing what is going on.

I do believe in my heart that he was totally and completely aware of what was going on with that and other breedings. That truly saddens me, but that is what I believe.

RayG

scotly50 · Post by **scotly50** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:14 pm

I would love to have some White Powder or Date Line in my pointers.

But I like all age dogs. And I like to win

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:13 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Wildweeds -

This was not Mr. Miller's first rodeo. This was not his first confirmed infraction. He was a successful bird dog breeder, both from financial and from a product standpoint. You do not get to be that successful by not knowing what is going on.

I do believe in my heart that he was totally and completely aware of what was going on with that and other breedings. That truly saddens me, but that is what I believe.

RayG

Ray then what was Ferrels first? Far as his financial from talking to him first hand several times it was smart investments in land in his area using money from his time as a college prof that made him the most money. Best I know there was one confirmed that it was the sire, his dog, and that was a paperwork issue. I know your issue but I also know that when all the Miller haters were saying that True Spirit was sterile we got 13 DNA confirmed pups outta him same with Whire Powder and were DNA used when we bred to Chief I bet ya that would have been true as well. There are far bigger crooks in the dog worlrd than Ferrel that have been caught several times with their hands in the cookie jar, yet they are ALL still breeding just because they paid the money BM wanted. Or at least we are told they paid the money.

Scotty I tell ya I am a confirmed fan of what Ferrel did, my double bred Dateline bitch is the most natural bird dog I ha,ve ever owned or trained. Dang site better than some of the sires I read people talking about on this thread. Do contact Frank Thompson if ya want the TRUTH on some of the supposed brag dogs and the prepotency. Read his report Selecting the Field Trial Stud Dog in the 90s. It is very enlightening.

Oh yeah far as finding birds goes it's tough to beat dogs from the Texas Squire blood I have found and the Miller dogs I have owned, as well as the Doublecross Slim dogs, have all been great at finding and handling. Thats on wild birds where it aint just the finding but the handling of game is vital, does little good to find em if ya don't handle em well. Some sires mentioned were/are great libby dogs but from personal experience they aint been half as good on wild birds as some not mentioned. Matter of fact one seeming favorite on here I have found his get to be pretty pitiful at it and his replacement in the kennel even worse. Course neither his owner nor handler are bird hunters today or in the past so that don't matter to em.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:10 am

Duane -

PM sent.

RayG

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:56 pm

Ray where can a fella find the Frank Thompson report??

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:28 pm

birdogg42 wrote:Ray where can a fella find the Frank Thompson report??

http://fieldtrialpointers.net/onlipub.html

Ray I did not get the PM ya sent.

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:52 am

For hunting upland birds here in the midwest I have had my best dogs from Miller bloodlines. I like the nose, toughness and pointing style that the Fiddler lines generally have but the Miller dogs have been natural at knowing where and how to find wild birds. With Miller not producing dogs his blood is becoming harder to find and thinned down. I have a young dog that I like and her sire has Miller's Chief, Miller' Showcase and two crosses to Bill's Doublecross Slim. He is now dead and was called Gailen's Lotto, my pup did a nice job in northcentral Kansas on pheasant and quail last weekend. I have a brand new puppy with Rock Acre and Go Boy lines to start now, we'll see if I can foot hunt this one too.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:54 pm

Birddog42 -

The index is located here.

http://fieldtrialpointers.net/pbaindex.html

Duane -

Mea culpa.

Apparently the message got glitched or something. I don't know what happened. It is not in my sent file, so, unfotunately, it is gone. Sorry about that.

RayG

I

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:00 pm

scotly50 wrote:I would love to have some White Powder or Date Line in my pointers.

But I like all age dogs. And I like to win

Where you from Scotly? I know of a fella that has a Direct son of i believe is Millers Silver Ending. If you are interested?

Bay Mud · Post by **Bay Mud** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:32 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Birddog42 -

The index is located here.

http://fieldtrialpointers.net/pbaindex.html

RayG

I

Interesting read. Anyone seen any results from the Millenium recomendation:
Breed a son or daughter of Black Crude to a son or daughter of Go Boy's Shadow.

Thanks,
BayMud

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:16 pm

Miller's Silver Bullett-

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:04 pm

On lines...I would pick Guard Rail over anything Miller, except Chief...hands down for the kind of bird dog I need. Miller dogs are at their best on wild or nearly wild birds. Heavily Miller bred dogs do not do well on a steady diet of liberated birds. You do not see Miller breeding on both top and bottom of any dogs on the Shooting dog circuit in the Northeast which is all liberated birds, essentially. You actually see relatively few with Miller close up on one side. If the heavily bred Miller dogs were winning trials in the Northeast...everyone would have them, and you can take that to the bank. They don't... and haven't. Where I trial and hunt there are virtually no wild birds. Guard Rail bred dogs seem to be able to maintain their composure, style and intensity... over time, on a steady diet of liberated birds, and can also handle the occasional wild bird exposure.

Of the individual dogs alive today, Sugarknoll Buckshot is probably the best birdfinder I have seen personally. I also hear very good things about Rock Acre Blackhawk but I have not seen him or too many of his get...yet. One of the nicer moving dogs I have seen is Lester's Thunderbird and Mowhawk Mill Ride moves pretty well also. I do like the way Mowhawk Mill Sportster seems to want to stay with his handler. That is impressive for an all age dog.

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:40 pm

Ray, so you are saying if you were wanting a big running, nothing but a wild bird dog then MIller is the way to go?????

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:39 pm

Pretty funny. My kennel is full of Guard Rail x Miller crosses ....with a little Blackhawk mixed in.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:47 pm

I train my Miller dogs on liberated birds,and the only problem I have is sometimes they smell them,and establish point from a far distance.Is this bad?

birdogg42 · Post by **birdogg42** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:01 pm

Ross, how come i dont see any pics of your guard rail pups??????????

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:09 pm

BD42,

Just changed my avatar. He is out of Blackhawk and my Guard Rail x Ko Kane daughter. Ko kane is a littermate/full sister to Ch. Miller's Online, Ch. Miller's Southern Justice and Ch. Wiggin's River Bo.

Jack has Horseback Open Puppy wins, NBHA Open Puppy wins and last weekend received a NAVHDA NA 108 PII. He loves the water and retrieves like a lab.

I love Guard Rail and Miller.

........Girl's current litter looks great. I'm not really advertising the pups much. If someone wants a line bred Guard Rail pup they can contact me through a PM. This litter is pretty tight.