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crackerd wrote:Yet every competitive retriever is force fetched. (OK, 999 out of 1,000--Rick, I know you're out there.)
Now for your take on FF as detrimental to a dog's natural retrieving ability.
MG
What force fetch will NEVER do is to make a dog that dislikes retrieving into an excellent retriever.
What force fetch is really about is it's ability to establish a training attitude with a dog that lets that dog correctly and effectively accept pressure given it. It teaches dogs in an organized manor how to turn pressure off by complying with a training command.
gonehuntin' wrote:OK, one thing at a time. First, force fetch doesn't cause hard mouth, it sometimes fixes it. Personally, I have never seen ff cause hard mouth in any dog. Period. Hard mouth is sooooooooo rare that no pro could possible document it and it's causes. Here's the deal. A dog is tough on birds and it's sent to a pro. Maybe the dog was a bird eater, maybe a sticker, maybe a crusher. I believe that once a dog DEVELOPS AND MOUTH PROBLEM AND IT BECOMES A HABIT, it is virtually impossible to cure it. You may control it, you will not cure it. Every pro I have known has felt the same way.
snips wrote:I believe you can achieve a great retriever thru FF on a dog with no natural instincts to retrieve. I do not believe there is any way of knowing on that dog if it is awaking his natural instincts or if you have a great "trained" retrieve.
ezzy333 wrote:Its always been my understanding that is where FF got started, training dogs without any natural retrieving instinct to retrieve in a circus act or where ever. I know that is how they train many dogs today for obedience work. And many of those dogs don't have a clue what retrieving is.
snips wrote:Thats true Ezzy, that is where I learned it, as the dog has to retrieve a dumbell over a jump and they are not going to do this naturally
mountaindogs wrote:Do I think that because you FF, your dogs lack a natural retrieving passion? Certainly not. But they could and I would not know.
mountaindogs wrote:mountaindogs wrote:Do I think that because you FF, your dogs lack a natural retrieving passion? Certainly not. But they could and I would not know.
I pull out one quote to put extra emphasis on it. Of course, "you" is general not anyone in particular.
ezzy333 wrote:mountaindogs wrote: FF is fine when it is needed but when someone is looking for a dog to breed to, it is impossible to tell if the dog had natural retrieving qualities or not.
Guess it is just me that still thinks a hunting dog finds game and brings it back.
Ezzy
Same old misperceptions, year after year. "FF gives dogs with no desire to retrieve the desire they weren't born with. FF'd dogs look just like non-FF'd dogs that have natural desire."ezzy333 wrote:This is so true. And that is where the problem exist. FF is fine when it is needed but when someone is looking for a dog to breed to, it is impossible to tell if the dog had natural retrieving qualities or not.
Ezzy
EvanG wrote:Same old misperceptions, year after year. "FF gives dogs with no desire to retrieve the desire they weren't born with. FF'd dogs look just like non-FF'd dogs that have natural desire."ezzy333 wrote:This is so true. And that is where the problem exist. FF is fine when it is needed but when someone is looking for a dog to breed to, it is impossible to tell if the dog had natural retrieving qualities or not.
Ezzy
While there is no basis in fact, the flames are constantly fanned that promote such myths and misperceptions. The following will take a few minutes to read, but is correct regarding the force fetching of retrievers and other gun dogs.
ezzy333 wrote:
A dog that has been FF properly will look just like a dog that fetches naturally. That and that alone makes it impossiblre to tell the difference between them. And when I am picking a dog to breed to I want to breed to a dog that is natural. That is all I said and I think it still stands. I didn't say or indicate that FF was bad, just that it does mask some shortcomings that I would prefer to not brred to.
Ezzy
No, Ezzy. I'm not indicting you personally. I'm speaking to a common misperception; That force fetch is equal to natural desire to fetch, in that a dog with little or no such desire can be made to look just as birdy and stylish a retriever through the FF process. Perhaps one in a million.ezzy333 wrote: I must be stupid but I get the impression this was written to refute what I am quoted as saying and I don't see a thing that does that. A dog that has been FF properly will look just like a dog that fetches naturally.
Ezzy
lvrgsp wrote:Ok my apologies to everyone here, because I posted the natural retrieve part in there but that was not what I wanted the focus to be on, so if you can read my first post again and just omit the natural retrieve part of it.............But I do stand by that comment, and I have my reasons, sorry for confusing you all. And for whoever said the hard mouth thing about the retrievers, I think there is more to it than just that, more along the line of a retriever being considered a clamper, those dogs have more negative results from the FF program, and thats been documented by a pro for many years. Again sorry kind of off topic.
Thanks,
Chip
Retiredbirddogman wrote:Forced "here"
Forced "whoa"
Forced "sit"
Forced "stay"
Forced "track"
Forced "?"
What is considered "forced" and what is considered "training"?
gonehuntin' wrote:Retiredbirddogman wrote:Forced "here"
Forced "whoa"
Forced "sit"
Forced "stay"
Forced "track"
Forced "?"
What is considered "forced" and what is considered "training"?
Actually, I collar break my dogs and force them to perform all obedience commands and ff.
I've always felt that first you teach a dog what you want, then to make it reliable, you force it to do it.
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