Garmin Astro in AKC Trials

[Hotpepper]

The president of the GSPCA has submitted a letter to the Performance Events director of the AKC stating the support for approval of the Garmin Astro for AKC field trials. A number of conditions for use and even having it turned on or in possession are addressed in the correspondence; such as, on course, in the gallery, in the parking lot, on the road, etc as well as after a dog is out of contention and when the next brace can start.

It seems there have been issues in the American Field venue this spring where the device has been approved for use this spring. Watch for AKC to take the next step to approve or dispapprove it.

Jerry

[Tejas]

Jerry,

Would you elaborate on issues that developed in use in AF events?

[kylenicholas02]

Jerry,
We spoke about this while riding in the gallery at Danville several weeks ago. The thoughts and concerns I heard expressed was who possessed the handheld (which I believe we concluded should be the judge of the dog), the time saving of having technology to assist in finding a dog that is out of contention, and the shear reinsurance that you have a significantly better chance of recovering a dog if it decides to run wild. When your dog gets to that level of training, the monetary and emotional investment involved in each is overwhelming. I rode in the gallery that day with numerous guys who have had dogs lost during trials. Personally, I've had my shorthairs take off twice and it was more of a emotional distress than leaving my girlfriend of 4 yrs.

In conclusion other than the tradition agrument, its a difficult decision to disapprove so long as proper insurance is taken to limit cheating. 20 yrs ago we had computers 10 times the size of the MAC i'm on now... Embrace technology or get ran over as it passes you.

[Hotpepper]

The conditions under which they will be regulated are yet to be worked to a finish. Some of the concerns that I addressed in the note are: who has a Garmin,; where is it located; in the gallery, in the parking lot, on the road, etc. Those are things that the shorthair organization submitted to be worked out in the "permissible" correspondence from AKC if they approve the use.

If you have a dog gone from your brace, pull your Astro, when do you have to either turn it off or turn it in to a judge or marshall, I feel will be quite a bit to be worked out. If you have a dog gone and have the gadget on the dog if you cannot use your receiver because a dog in the next brace also has it on will render your Astro worthless.

Hope this will stimuilate some discussion from the field trial folks.

Jerry

[diamondhillbritt]

Jerry,
I'm glad you started this discussion. The American Brittany Club has drafted a similar letter to AKC in favor of the approval of the Garmin at FT's. I have a Garmin, and have had some problems with it losing signal, and finding the signal on our collars when the unit is turned on. (sometimes it needs to be re-synchronized) I've been away at a Championship in Iowa the past 3 weeks, and have heard similar complaints from other users. I have a good friend who has told me that the software needs to be updated on the unit when they make new versions available. I've done that.
My problem is that as much as I like the Garmin, I probably won't be using it in trials until I know it's going to work every time the judge hands me back my Garmin and I turn it on.
I think we're all in agreement, it doesn't matter how much the collar weighs, we just want it to work!
Lisa

[Razor]

I really hope they make up their minds soon. Yea or nay, I really do not care. I have the Astro and plan on picking up another Marshall tomorrow.

[phermes1]

The VCA either already has or will soon send a letter to the AKC supporting the Astro.

[Wagonmaster]

The early reports on the use of the Astro for finding lost trial dogs are not particularly good. Signal strength does not seem to be sufficient.

[Hotpepper]

John, I have not bought one yet, with the hunting I do I do not need that right now, once I start hunting J R this fall I am sure that I will. Barber swears by it, Brath hates the thing and does not like using it. Says it is too slow. A couple of years ago when LB was lost for 6 days out at Hoke's, I am sure it would have been of great assistance. Same with Dave Wickens in California last year where his Windee was gone for a week as well.

Doesn't the signal have to go through a satellite or 3 and return? They should get the bugs worked out. My GPS in the truck and boat both work very well.

Jerry

[Wagonmaster]

The problem is that the collar locates itself by reference to satellites, and the receiver does also, but the transmission for the receiver to know where the collar is, is line of sight radio from the collar to the receiver. That has limits that in practice are shorter than the range of the Marshall, especially out in the big western venues. The guys I know are sticking to their Marshalls. I have a Tracker and like it just fine so am keeping it for now.

I also have the Astro and it works very well for hunting. For training it has the advantage of telling you exactly where the dog has run and is currently, so you can see if and how much the dog is going back when out of sight. But it does have some issues, I have lost transmission from the collar several times, and also the compass seems to need to be re-calibrated fairly often. Re-calibration involved pressing a button and turning around slowly two times, which is nothing when you are on foot but a little more complicated if you are mounted.

[Razor]

The problem is that the collar locates itself by reference to satellites, and the receiver does also, but the transmission for the receiver to know where the collar is, is line of sight radio from the collar to the receiver. That has limits that in practice are shorter than the range of the Marshall, especially out in the big western venues. The guys I know are sticking to their Marshalls. I have a Tracker and like it just fine so am keeping it for now.

I also have the Astro and it works very well for hunting. For training it has the advantage of telling you exactly where the dog has run and is currently, so you can see if and how much the dog is going back when out of sight. But it does have some issues, I have lost transmission from the collar several times, and also the compass seems to need to be re-calibrated fairly often. Re-calibration involved pressing a button and turning around slowly two times, which is nothing when you are on foot but a little more complicated if you are mounted.

Very true. I lost the signal numerous times on in ND this year hunting the prairie with an AA dog. The main reason I am getting another Marshall is the poor signal.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Wagonmaster someone on here did post a few weeks back that rather than you spinning in a circle especially if mounted you can just spin the unit in your hand. It still does the circles but you don't have to. Might save you some hassle.

Even with the issues of lost signal etc isn't it beneficial to be able to use the Garmin knowing the dog was last seen going this way and continue to work until a signal is able to be picked up then instantly you are back on track? I don't currently have one but intend to purchase one in the future. Hoping a few of the bugs get worked out before I'm able to get it. Thought of being able to download the dogs path the whole time it was lost as well as every time you run the dog will help you see tendencies in where it goes as well. I would think if each time a dog gets lost if they are making similar moves or directions and not running a deer or something it could be helpful to finding them the next time. May not be the perfect tool we all want it to be right now, but I'm sure it will continue to improve as long as there is a market for it.

[Wagonmaster]

Yes, you can spin the unit, but you also have to keep it level, which is alot easier to do if you click your heels and turn around twice, like Dorothy. Well, ok, I think she turned around three times, but same principle.

[Neil Mace]

Folks,

With the long range antenna (available at LCS), I still have a signal at 18 miles, it has been reported to me by others that they did at 25 miles. If you can't find a dog before it gets that far away, you need a faster horse.

I doubt I have recalibrated the compass 6 times in nearly 9 months of heavy use.

I have never failed to regain a signal after turning the unit off, although most of the time I keep mine on. But I have practiced as though in a trial a dozen times or so.

Nearly all the problems with the units that have been reported to me are user error, failure to read the manual. Even though I have no formal relationship with Garmin, I have become a defacto representative. I get calls from all over the country, of 40 to 50 problems only 2 have had to be returned to Garmin.

Now I really don't care if it is approved or not, but it does not have to be an either/or, they can approve it, and all of you can continue to use the telemetry. But I know of 10 field trial grounds where telemetry does not work well, and the Astro does. I have tested them.

Neil

[buckshot]

I'd be interested in AKC's opinion of them.

Here is UKC's opinion on the Garmin GPS"

GPS Tracking Systems in UKC Licensed Nite Hunts

Advisor Column – July
Allen Gingerich

While we welcome today’s higher technology it brings with it some concerns. For instance the new Garmin Astro’s have many different useful options when it comes to using them for training purposes or tracking hounds as well as GPS telemetry for human navigation all built in one unit. The most common question raised is; are they allowed to be used for navigational purposes such as finding your vehicle or otherwise during the course of a nite hunt?

It is UKC’s position that any GPS system with a built in collar tracking capabilities will be treated the same as any other radio wave tracking units used for tracking purposes. They may not be used or turned in the “on” position during the hunt – no exceptions. There will also not be any exceptions in using them for navigational purposes during a time-in period of a nite hunt. It would open the door for abuse because of the way most of these systems are set up. Whether they be used for tracking purposes, navigational purposes or otherwise any GPS system with tracking capabilities are allowed during time-out periods only.

Affective immediately and/or until further notice the following must be adhered to regarding the use of GPS units with built in tracking capabilities in UKC Licensed Events.

Individual must advise cast of GPS unit as part of their hunt gear prior to start of hunt.
Navigational system may be used to mark waypoints (parked vehicles) prior to start of hunt or during time out periods only. When used for marking it must be done in plain view of cast and turned to off position.
May not be turned in the “on” position at any time during a time-in period.
May not be used for navigational purposes during the hunt. They may only be used for such during a time-out period.
Unit must be shown to any cast member during the hunt when requested.
Individuals found to be in violation of these restrictions are subject to sanctions by the United Kennel Club and/or as outlined in Rule 20.

Note: GPS navigational only systems may be used at any time during a UKC Licensed Nite Hunt.

[DGFavor]

There is no way I'd turn my dog loose with the current Garmin setup in a field trial - the range in our parts just isn't there, even with the LR antennae I'm told.

Tracker has a new booster Yagi attachment they are touting 68 miles (!!) reception - I've gotta have one!! Trading in my old unit next week.

I'm a Garmin owner too BTW and love it when it works - I use 'em everytime training or hunting but I put a tele collar on my dogs everytime for backup. In a trial I use the telemetry collars.

Even with the issues of lost signal etc isn't it beneficial to be able to use the Garmin knowing the dog was last seen going this way and continue to work until a signal is able to be picked up then instantly you are back on track?

Would be nice if they worked like that!! Unfortunately most of the times these dogs are moving thru the country and looking for 'em where they were doesn't often help! Best thing when you lose contact or signal with either the Garmin or telemetry units is to get to high ground or start using your noodle surveying the country around you trying to reason out where in that country the dog is likely to be that you can't pick up a signal and go there first.

Currently, if you've got a dog that likes to look over the country and you want to get it back home at the end of the day, I think telemetry still gets the nod.

One last thing regarding both Garmin and telemetry use in trials. Keeping track of one receiver (givng it to the judge or marshall) isn't going to deter the determined cheater. Both tracking methods can be paired with multiple receivers. Short of frisking everyone in the immediate area, I'm not sure how that concern could ever be addressed.

[Hotpepper]

I thing that last paragraph Doug is teh concern from everyone. I suppose there have been issues in the AF where it is being used.

Jerry

They will figure it out.

[Razor]

There is no way I'd turn my dog loose with the current Garmin setup in a field trial - the range in our parts just isn't there, even with the LR antennae I'm told.

Tracker has a new booster Yagi attachment they are touting 68 miles (!!) reception - I've gotta have one!! Trading in my old unit next week.

I'm a Garmin owner too BTW and love it when it works - I use 'em everytime training or hunting but I put a tele collar on my dogs everytime for backup. In a trial I use the telemetry collars.

Even with the issues of lost signal etc isn't it beneficial to be able to use the Garmin knowing the dog was last seen going this way and continue to work until a signal is able to be picked up then instantly you are back on track?

Would be nice if they worked like that!! Unfortunately most of the times these dogs are moving thru the country and looking for 'em where they were doesn't often help! Best thing when you lose contact or signal with either the Garmin or telemetry units is to get to high ground or start using your noodle surveying the country around you trying to reason out where in that country the dog is likely to be that you can't pick up a signal and go there first.

Currently, if you've got a dog that likes to look over the country and you want to get it back home at the end of the day, I think telemetry still gets the nod.


One last thing regarding both Garmin and telemetry use in trials. Keeping track of one receiver (givng it to the judge or marshall) isn't going to deter the determined cheater. Both tracking methods can be paired with multiple receivers. Short of frisking everyone in the immediate area, I'm not sure how that concern could ever be addressed.

I agree with this 100%. I picked up a Marshall today for the same reasons. I would bet Garmin is paying Neil.

[BigShooter]

Now I really don't care if it is approved or not, but it does not have to be an either/or, they can approve it, and all of you can continue to use the telemetry.
Neil

I didn't take Jerry's original post to mean "do you think Garmin's work?" as many posters have made comments about. I think Neil hit the nail on the head, if approved, let the handler decide which system they want to rely on to locate their lost dog.

One last thing regarding both Garmin and telemetry use in trials. Keeping track of one receiver (givng it to the judge or marshall) isn't going to deter the determined cheater. Both tracking methods can be paired with multiple receivers. Short of frisking everyone in the immediate area, I'm not sure how that concern could ever be addressed.

Doug's right.

One idea to reduce cheating would be if each receiver had a security code imbedded at the factory. Each hand held unit would have to also broadcast its unique I.D. code anytime it was turned on (additional power would be required). Then if Garmin (or someone else) developed a unit that would receive and show the I.D.s of turned on hand units the trial officials could detect turned on hand held units. What if not all of the hand held units were registered to an individual at the trial? The trial officials would only know one was turned on but potentially not know who was holding it, unless they also had a telemetry unit to locate the cheater and his /her hand held unit.

Sigh - the extreme efforts required to try to eliminate cheating !

[AHGSP]

Like me ol' Granpappy used to say: "Locked doors only keep an honest man honest."

One of the issues that would bother me w/ the Garmin would be battery life. When we are talking about a dog several days gone missing, the Garmin is out of commission w/ dead batteries; whereas the Tracker is still ticking. If I'm going to stake my dogs well being on a Tracker or GPS, I'm opting for the one w/ the longest battery life.... the Tracker.
Just my wooden nickel....

[Neil Mace]

I would bet Garmin is paying Neil.

Razor,

You would lose that bet.

I promote the Garmin Astro because it works!

But I know for a fact that many that are opposed to GPS are being funded by the telemetry companies, talk about a conflict of interest.

Neil

[Razor]

Neil-

I hate to tell ya, but I own both and the Garmin is not all it is cracked up to be out west. The range sucks, I like Doc would never put the thing on a shooting or all age dog. The windshield wiper boys out here love the thing, but in reality they really do not need a tracking system. I like the concept but until they increase the signal strength the thing is still a toy. I have lost the signal so many times hunting, I went and bought a Marshall yesterday. The Garmin is going back to Cabelas, until the next GSP system comes out in the Spring of 10.

[Wildweeds]

I inadvertantly left my marshall collar on the last day I'd used it in december,the following may I was rooting around in my bag of tricks for something and noticed the light blinking.So I agree that the battery life point is a good one,however if the unit pinpoints the dog or guides you to the last known position of the dog when the signal was lost,I'd think one would be able to find the dog before the battery went gunneybag.

Like me ol' Granpappy used to say: "Locked doors only keep an honest man honest."

One of the issues that would bother me w/ the Garmin would be battery life. When we are talking about a dog several days gone missing, the Garmin is out of commission w/ dead batteries; whereas the Tracker is still ticking. If I'm going to stake my dogs well being on a Tracker or GPS, I'm opting for the one w/ the longest battery life.... the Tracker.
Just my wooden nickel....

[Neil Mace]

Razor,

Even before I got the long range antenna, I had my dog at 1 1/4 miles in South Dakota, now it is true he rarely runs much bigger than that, do you consider that windshield wiper range?

You don't like it, don't use it.

But I have lost two dogs in trials with telemetry, one Tracker, the other Marshall, both times because of high line and micro wave towers (Camp Robinson, AR and Ames Plantation, TN). I am pretty much convinced that there are only about 12 people that can use telemetry correctly, I doubt you are one of them, I know I am not. The rest waive the things in the air until the dog returns on his own.

Neil

[Wildweeds]

Neil,

The hound guys here are pretty sharp with a telemetry unit,I think your dozen quip is somewhat off the mark,I had my hound buddy give the 101 lesson to me when I got my marshall and practiced with it.I had the collar come off one day while hunting(don't ask me how that happend) and then the dog got to going in the crp and I lost her,I whipped the thing out and it told me she was behind,which I thought odd because the dog is the front runningnest dog I own,Then I spotted her about 3-4 hundred yards out at 1 oclock but the receiver said she should be at 6.I called her in and she was sans collar,then the hunt was really on,and I found the collar about a half mile back laying in the crp,I'll tell you this...............it wasn't super difficult to find but...............it's a whole lot easier when the dog is attached to it.

I am pretty much convinced that there are only about 12 people that can use telemetry correctly, I doubt you are one of them, I know I am not. The rest waive the things in the air until the dog returns on his own.

Neil

[Neil Mace]

Sorry, Wildweeds, I should have said "Only about 12 Field Trial Guys" have shown me they can use telemetry. The hound guys and a ton of wildlife biologists can, they can find a bat in 100 square miles. It is not the equipment, but us and where we try to use them. There always seems to be a mountain, a highline, or micro-wave tower, or even a metal barn to interfere.

Telemetry is great, I just want the option of using GPS. And it ought to be a fair process, not what is going on now.

If the Garmin was not a threat to telemetry, we would not have the push back we have.

I can always tell who opposes it by who pays them.

If the sanctioning bodies approve the Garmin, watch how quickly the telemetry companies come out with GPS units. They either will or go out of business. Even a dunderhead like me can use the Astro, no training, just take it out of the box and read the manual.

Neil

[BigShooter]

Neil-

The Garmin is going back to Cabelas, until the next GSP system comes out in the Spring of 10.

"GSP" system, huh? Nice play on words!

[Pineywoods]

Neil wrote
Even a dunderhead like me can use the Astro, no training, just take it out of the box and read the manual.

So is he saying Hound guys are smarter than field trial guys ?

[Razor]

Neil-

The Garmin is going back to Cabelas, until the next GSP system comes out in the Spring of 10.

"GSP" system, huh? Nice play on words!

Well you know what is on my mind. There is GPS system on the horizon that will have much greater signal strength than the Astro. The collar will also be much smaller. The point is mute unless they allow you to use the thing.

[phermes1]

April 22, 2009
To: All Pointing Breed Clubs Licensed to Hold Field Trials or Hunt Tests
Subject: The Use of GPS Tracking Devices at Pointing Breed Field Events
The GPS tracking collar is a new piece of equipment available to Pointing Breed owners
and trainers. The availability of this equipment has raised questions concerning its use in
Pointing Breed field events. In January the AKC Performance Events Department wrote
to all Pointing Breed parent clubs briefly explaining the current regulations pertaining to
the use of tracking collars and requesting input regarding the possible acceptance of GPS
tracking devices.

Eight clubs responded. Many individuals also wrote the AKC. Club input was consistent
on a number of issues.*
1. The use of GPS tracking devices should be allowed in Pointing Breed field events.
2. AKC should continue to approve tracking devices before their use is permitted.
3. There are significant concerns about the possible misuse of GPS tracking devices to
aid the handler and scout. AKC should modify the existing tracking collar
regulations in order to address the issues raised by this new technology.
Given the strong consensus regarding the use of GPS tracking devises, the Performance
Events Department will recommend the approval of the Garmin Astro receiver and the
Garmin DC30 collar for use in AKC Pointing Dog field events along with a revised set of
regulations governing the use of tracking devices. The approval of the Garmin unit and
the revised regulations will be effective August 1, 2009, assuming Board approval.
Attached below are the draft regulations. Prior to finalizing, the Performance Events
Department would like to receive comments. This letter is being e-mailed to all clubs
licensed to hold field trials and hunt tests. Clubs are asked to distribute the letter to
interested members. Contact information for submitting comments (from either
individuals or clubs) is provided at the end of the draft regulations.
Thank you for your thoughts as we implement the use of this new technology into our
field events.
Sincerely,
Doug Ljungren


* All responding clubs supported the approval of GPS tracking devices. The AKC
encouraged clubs to submit minority opinions. Based on the input received from
clubs and individuals, an estimated 5% of participants are against the use of any
tracking device. Further, an additional 10% of participants feel the potential for
misuse of the GPS technology is so great that it outweighs the advantages of its use.
An estimated 85% of participants feel all tracking devices should be allowed as long
as the units are approved by the AKC and there are regulations which address
potential issues regarding their use.
Regulations On the Use of Tracking Devices at AKC Pointing Dog Events
The following are Draft Regulations. Please submit comments no later than June 5.
Final Regulations will be adopted following the comment period. The new
Regulations will become effective August 1, 2009.
The use of tracking devices is solely for locating the dog once the dog is no longer
under judgment. Information obtained through the use of a tracking device must
not be used to aid the handler, scout or judges. The following regulations on their
use will apply.

1. AKC Approved – Only tracking devices approved by the AKC Performance
Events Department will be permitted. The collar and receiver must be used as
received from the manufacturer. No modifications may be made other than
name tags may be added. The collar surface against the dog’s neck shall be
flat. For future units, approval will include both the collar and the receiver.
2. No Receivers Carried by the Handler and Scout – The handler and scout may
not carry a receiver. If they choose to bring their receivers on course, they
must be given to the judges or someone designated by the judges.
3. Receivers in the Gallery Must Be Turned Off – No one in the gallery shall
track the dogs while they are under judgment.
4. No “Outside” Communications - No one shall communicate in any manner
with the handler, scout, judges or gallery any information obtained through
the use of a tracking device while the dogs are under judgment.
5. Receivers May Only Be Used Once the Dog is No Longer Under Judgment –
Receivers shall only be activated once judgment has concluded. If a dog is
gone at time, the dog is still under judgment until the judges indicate
otherwise.
6. Dogs Lost From Previous Braces – If a dog is lost from a previous brace, the
handler and scout may use their receivers during the next brace solely for the
purpose of locating their dog. Once the dog is located, they must immediately
turn off their receivers. They must not communicate any information they
obtain through the use of their receivers concerning the dogs currently under
judgment.
7. Judges May Not Consider Information Obtained Through Tracking Devices –
Judges are not to consider any information obtained through the use of a
tracking device. No one shall use information from a tracking device to
attempt to influence a judge or to discredit the judge’s decision.
8. The use of a tracking collar is an elective by the handler and it is the handler’s
responsibility to furnish the device. The running of a stake shall not be held
up due to the lack of a tracking device.
9. Two-Collar Rule – A dog may wear no more than two collars. All collars
shall be worn on the dog’s neck. If the handler elects to use a tracking collar,
it shall remain on the dog during the entire time the dog is under judgment. If
the handler removes the tracking collar, the dog shall be considered out of
judgment.
10. Tracking Collars Not Allowed in Call Back Situations – Since the use of a
tracking collar is solely for locating the dog, tracking collars are not allowed
in call back situations.
11. The use of tracking devices is at the discretion of the host club. For Field
Trials, the premium list must state that tracking devices are not allowed,
otherwise they will be allowed. For Hunt Tests, the premium list must state
they are allowed, otherwise they will not be allowed.
12. Rescinding Use - Use of specific tracking devices may be rescinded at any
time by the AKC Performance Events Department if the regulations
pertaining to their use become overly difficult to enforce or in the case of
repeated misuse.
In addition, the AKC will clarify the Rules pertaining to scouting. It will be more
clearly stated that “out-riding” by the scout will not be allowed and that the judges
shall instruct scouts to return to the gallery if they feel out-riding is occurring.
Penalty for Misuse of Tracking Devices
The misuse of a tracking device to aid in the handling or scouting of a dog is a
flagrant act of poor sportsmanship and is prejudicial to the sport. The dog shall be
disqualified from the stake. The accused shall be charged with misconduct. If the
event committee determines the charges have been proven, the individuals shall be
immediately suspended from all forms of participation in AKC Pointing Breed
field events.
AKC has not predetermined the penalty that will be imposed. However, AKC will
view this as a flagrant and premeditated act of poor sportsmanship. Penalties may
include any combination of suspension from participation in pointing breed field
events, a monetary fine and the loss of the privilege to use a tracking device for a
future period of time. Further, the AKC will share tracking device misuse
information with the American Field.