E Collar or Garmin

[woodedareas]

I am about to bu a TriTronics E collar but have become interested in the Gamin GPS collar. I realize that with Garmin I can track my dog and with the ecollar I can stimulate the dog.My dog is young and just beginning hunting. He will be trained enough with basic commands to use an ecollar soon. I like the Garmin as I can track the dog for a considerable diatance plus also know where I am and how to get back to the truck.What are you using and any advice?

[MTO4Life]

I'm by no means a pro here, but I use both. The Garmin is great, lets me see what my dog is doing, but if I command here, and the Garmin tells me she is still hauling a%* away from me, I can nick her with the e-collar and fix that problem right there. Without the e-collar, the Garmin shows me she is still running away!! Maybe others have opinions on this, but that isw my $0.02 worth. It is expensive to get both, but I rationalized that it was cheaper than the vet bills from my dog getting hurt or hit, or replacing the dog!

[natetnc]

e-collar first, run it with a beeper if you want a little piece of mind. garmin is nice, i would suggest it to anyone...... but not over an e-collar, that is if you plan to train with an e-collar, i assume you are since you mentioned it.

[kninebirddog]

yep for me e collar comes first...I do not need a dog that learns to hunt for themselves and then have to track them down to find them
the e collar specially now a days is the most humane way to teach that provided you follow a method and teach the dog

both have their place but i like to be able to maintain my dogs training not just chase them down with a garmin

[gonehuntin']

I would always opt for the ecollar over the Astro. That being said, I run them with both on. It's the way to go. That is as safe as you can possibly make it for a dog.

[bossman]

I RUN MY DOGS WITH BOTH..iF YOU NEED TO GET JUST ONE...E COLLAR WITH BEEPER.

[DGFavor]

No brainer - if I could only have one, the tracking collar. I'd gladly turn my dogs loose without an e-collar no matter their level of training or my training goals with them but never, never without a tracking collar on. If I know where they're at and what they're doin', I can still work or train 'em without an e-collar. If I don't know where they're at or what they're up to, the e-collar is useless.

Reality is...I usually have e-collar, telemetry collar,and Garmin collar on dog! But if I could only use one, I'd opt for some sort of tracking device.

[RayGubernat]

Doc Favor has it right I think.

If you cannot see your dog or do not knw what it is doing, you should not use the e-collar.

For many hunters and e-collar and a beeper, either separate or as a combo unit, makes a lot of sense. Especially if the beeper has a "point" mode.

For those of us who routinely expect our dogs to be out of sight, a tracking device of some sort is really the first order of business. If you know where the dog is and what it is doing(moving versus standing still) you can use the e-collar to reinforce the come command. If the dog is standing still, you can go there and get the dog.

RayG

[BDBUzi]

I agree with Doug and Ray.
The ecollar isn't going to do you any good if the dog is tangled up in barbed wire or fallen of a ledge over the hill from you.

As mentioned before, a combination of the two is the ultimate setup.

[Dave Quindt]

For the training of foot-handled hunting dogs, I'd start with an e-collar. Having all of the options is certainly nice, but not necessary and for the newbie without a lot of experience, having to manage them all can be counterproductive.

A tracker is pretty useless for the guy training a basic hunting dog off of foot; a tracker becomes useful at ranges that exceed what 99% of the non-trialing hunters will ever see in training. In a vast majority of the country if you're training a dog off of foot, if the dog is at a range where the tracker is useful you're screwed anyway, because the dog is moving faster than you'll ever be able to keep up with. The Garmin is slightly more useful in that it quantifies how far the dog is from you, and you can recognize when it's time to stop chasing the dog, get back to your truck, and try to gain some ground on the dog.

In my experience, 95% of the pros training hunting dogs from foot in open cover are running nothing but an e-collar. It's really the best option, as it forces you maintain contact with the dog, and vise versa. Add a bell or beeper to help you as an amateur trainer and you'll be fine. When dealing with heavier cover, give me an e-collar with a quality bell (not the cheap ones from the local sporting goods store) and a beeper on point-only and I got everything I'd need.

Basic training for a birddog is nothing more than some general obedience, very basic patterning work and steadying the dog on birds. All of that's accomplished with the dog less than 100 yards from you. If you need a tracker or Garmin to accomplish that, you're doing something wrong.

If you're like a lot of guys on this site, and this thread, and you're developing a dog with trial-potential or you run off of horseback or wheeler or you live in parts of the west where you can let a hunting dog roll in training and still maintain contact, trackers and Garmins will be helpful. Since you, like I, live in Illinois and you've mentioned that you have a DeCoverly Setter I assume you are looking for a casual hunting dog.

JMO,
Dave

[gonehuntin']

A tracker is pretty useless for the guy training a basic hunting dog off of foot; a tracker becomes useful at ranges that exceed what 99% of the non-trialing hunters will ever see in training.
JMO,
Dave

Anyone that hunts grouse in the north and pheasant in the Dakotas can use and needs a tracker. I like them because the birds don't run out from the point like they will a bell or beeper. When a dog's working 100-150 yards out in a thick grouse woods, they're mighty hard to find. The Astro makes that a snap.

Same in the Dakotas in heavy CRP. Most hunting dogs work to about 100 yards and you'll have a heck of a time finding that dog in the CRP when he's more than 30 yards. out. Even the worst slug works over 30 yards.

That's how I use them Dave, for silence on the birds.

[Dave Quindt]

Anyone that hunts grouse in the north and pheasant in the Dakotas can use and needs a tracker. I like them because the birds don't run out from the point like they will a bell or beeper. When a dog's working 100-150 yards out in a thick grouse woods, they're mighty hard to find. The Astro makes that a snap.

Same in the Dakotas in heavy CRP. Most hunting dogs work to about 100 yards and you'll have a heck of a time finding that dog in the CRP when he's more than 30 yards. out. Even the worst slug works over 30 yards.

That's how I use them Dave, for silence on the birds.

That's all fine and dandy, but that's hunting and not training. There's certainly a place for trackers in hunting, but the original poster is a newbie to training and is looking for what technology can best help him train his dog. If he can't get his dog at least staunch, if not broke, he won't have much opportunity to find his dog buried in cover with a tracker or Garmin, will he now?

[Neil]

The reason it is not easy to answer this false choice question is that most of us have trained a lot of dogs without any electronics, so we know it can be done, and be done well.

I use both an e-collar and Garmin on every pointing dog I turn loose, everyone - every time!

Now, if the batteries are down or the unit defective, there are some dogs I will not run without a tracking device, I would just leave them in the truck and not risk it. That is not true with the e-collar, if it is not working I will still run the dogs. So perhaps that tells which is the most important to me.

It is a common misunderstanding that the tracking devices is only for the big running All-Age type dog, due to their independence, and practice at finding their way back to the front, it is rarely really needed for them. But the close hunting, dependent dog, that stays in sight, does not want to get far from you, is the one I fear will be lost and not recovered. They panic when they lose contact and don't know what to do. The big running dog does not even know or care.

You see big running dogs must have both an internal compass and timer, added to acute hearing or they could not run so big without being lost every time. I think that is what separates them, it is not desire, for I have seen close hunting dogs that have all the drive to find birds as the current NC, they just do not have the confidence to be out of sight doing it.

To honestly answer the question, if money were tight, I would not buy either, I would spend more money and time training and hunting the dog.

Neil

[gonehuntin']

That's all fine and dandy, but that's hunting and not training. There's certainly a place for trackers in hunting, but the original poster is a newbie to training and is looking for what technology can best help him train his dog. If he can't get his dog at least staunch, if not broke, he won't have much opportunity to find his dog buried in cover with a tracker or Garmin, will he now?

I don't know of any person, anywhere, that considers a tracker, a training aid. I think most of us, if not all, thought he was asking the conjunction with regard to both training and hunting. Dogs have been trained since man started training them without an electric collar, but it's sure nice to be able to find them in heavy cover.

Nope, if he can't get his dog staunch, he won't shot many birds over him, but on the other hand, if the dog is staunch and he can't find him, that won't do him much good either, will it now?

[woodedareas]

I appreciate the excellent responses to my question.It is unfortunate that someone has not produced a simple e collar that includesa garmin type gps all in one. I guess this raises one more question if you use an ecollar , do you then add an additional collar for the Garmin or GPS device. Seems like a lot of electronics to hang on one dogs neck. Based on my research I recall that the Garmin has a beeper that is included. In this respect there would be 2 electronic devices on one or two collars, one for the Garmin andf one for the ecollar. Or am I way off base?
Thanks
Allen

[Mike50]

I appreciate the excellent responses to my question.It is unfortunate that someone has not produced a simple e collar that includesa garmin type gps all in one. I guess this raises one more question if you use an ecollar , do you then add an additional collar for the Garmin or GPS device. Seems like a lot of electronics to hang on one dogs neck. Based on my research I recall that the Garmin has a beeper that is included. In this respect there would be 2 electronic devices on one or two collars, one for the Garmin andf one for the ecollar. Or am I way off base?
Thanks
Allen

I don't think we'll ever see a all in one collar Ecollar GPS. Their two separate devices that both require a power source. Each has their place and function. To get a smaller ecollar you now sacrifice range. How big would the transmitter for the ecollar and receiver for the GPS have to be? I wouldn't buy one. I can hunt with out one. But hunt with out both when it breaks down?

[DGFavor]

I don't know of any person, anywhere, that considers a tracker, a training aid.

You're in luck! You do now! They are great training aids - like I said before, if I know where the dog is at and what it is doing, I can work with 'em. We just train soley on native game so we really can't plan to work on backing, retrieving, STF, bird manners, etc because we might just get skunked that day. What we can work on every time out is dogs hunting to the front and with telemetry or Garmin, we can tell quickly when a dog is getting wayward then start working on getting 'em back to the front - whether that be by call/whistle, putting the profile of our horse so the dog can see where we're headed, e-collar or running 'em down and showing 'em the front. If we don't know where they're at, makes it really hard to work on that pattern...and honestly, wayward hunting patterns is where a large majority of dogs come up short at field trials and is a great way to lose your dog out hunting. Wayward dogs open up 360 degrees of possible places to get lost, typically front running dogs can at least give you some confidence to eliminate 180 degrees of places to go look for 'em.

Yesterday, we turned two dogs loose from the trailer, each wearing an e-collar and telemetry. After about 3 minutes, another of my dogs, Bugsy, came streaking past, apparently escaping his dog box. One of the dogs we were working was doing a nice job, staying well within the limits of the country, not a threat to get lost. Robbed his tele collar and put it on Bugs - found Bugs over the hill on sharpies short time later, worked the shorter ranging youngster in on the find and bird work for all!!

[ACooper]

I appreciate the excellent responses to my question.It is unfortunate that someone has not produced a simple e collar that includesa garmin type gps all in one. I guess this raises one more question if you use an ecollar , do you then add an additional collar for the Garmin or GPS device. Seems like a lot of electronics to hang on one dogs neck. Based on my research I recall that the Garmin has a beeper that is included. In this respect there would be 2 electronic devices on one or two collars, one for the Garmin andf one for the ecollar. Or am I way off base?
Thanks
Allen

I don't think we'll ever see a all in one collar Ecollar GPS. Their two separate devices that both require a power source. Each has their place and function. To get a smaller ecollar you now sacrifice range. How big would the transmitter for the ecollar and receiver for the GPS have to be? I wouldn't buy one. I can hunt with out one. But hunt with out both when it breaks down?

I disagree I think we will see a combo in the near future, I would bet there are people who have their own combo going now with a little ingenuity. We have a beeper/ecoolar combo, the gps/ecollar combo is a no brainer.

[Mike50]

For those of you running a GPS collar unit. What is the battery life on one charge till you no longer receive a signal telling you were your dog is. My hand held GPS is good for about 6 hrs if I don't play with it. That's with lithium batteries in it.

[glk7243]

I think the manual says 18 hrs. I have 2 and have used them a lot and I would say that is close. You get a signal on your handheld that tells you it is really low before it goes dead. The handheld, simliar to a 60csx last much longer than the 6hrs you are getting. Mine lasts a lot longer (with duracells) than the collar charge.
Regards
Gary

[gonehuntin']

I don't know of any person, anywhere, that considers a tracker, a training aid.

You're in luck! You do now! They are great training aids - like I said before, if I know where the dog is at and what it is doing, I can work with 'em. We just train soley on native game so we really can't plan to work on backing, retrieving, STF, bird manners, etc because we might just get skunked that day. What we can work on every time out is dogs hunting to the front and with telemetry or Garmin, we can tell quickly when a dog is getting wayward then start working on getting 'em back to the front - whether that be by call/whistle, putting the profile of our horse so the dog can see where we're headed, e-collar or running 'em down and showing 'em the front. If we don't know where they're at, makes it really hard to work on that pattern...and honestly, wayward hunting patterns is where a large majority of dogs come up short at field trials and is a great way to lose your dog out hunting. Wayward dogs open up 360 degrees of possible places to get lost, typically front running dogs can at least give you some confidence to eliminate 180 degrees of places to go look for 'em.

Yesterday, we turned two dogs loose from the trailer, each wearing an e-collar and telemetry. After about 3 minutes, another of my dogs, Bugsy, came streaking past, apparently escaping his dog box. One of the dogs we were working was doing a nice job, staying well within the limits of the country, not a threat to get lost. Robbed his tele collar and put it on Bugs - found Bugs over the hill on sharpies short time later, worked the shorter ranging youngster in on the find and bird work for all!!

To me, that would all still be location, not training. Once you find the dog, the training starts.

[Dave Quindt]

For those of you running a GPS collar unit. What is the battery life on one charge till you no longer receive a signal telling you were your dog is. My hand held GPS is good for about 6 hrs if I don't play with it. That's with lithium batteries in it.

Are you sure you've got the battery type set for Lithium?

I too get close to 18 hours out of a set of Lithiums. You can also "hot swap" batteries by plugging the unit into a 12 volt outlet using the mini-usb jack. You can then replace the batteries and unplug from the 12v power and the unit will keep tracking the entire time. I tried it last year when I was too lazy to go hunt in the rain and was stuck in the truck.

I'm guessing you could probably do the same thing with one of the portable emergency battery packs that you can use to charge a cell phone with, but have not tried that.

FWIW,
Dave

[lvrgsp]

I appreciate the excellent responses to my question.It is unfortunate that someone has not produced a simple e collar that includesa garmin type gps all in one. I guess this raises one more question if you use an ecollar , do you then add an additional collar for the Garmin or GPS device. Seems like a lot of electronics to hang on one dogs neck. Based on my research I recall that the Garmin has a beeper that is included. In this respect there would be 2 electronic devices on one or two collars, one for the Garmin andf one for the ecollar. Or am I way off base?
Thanks
Allen

I don't think we'll ever see a all in one collar Ecollar GPS. Their two separate devices that both require a power source. Each has their place and function. To get a smaller ecollar you now sacrifice range. How big would the transmitter for the ecollar and receiver for the GPS have to be? I wouldn't buy one. I can hunt with out one. But hunt with out both when it breaks down?

I disagree I think we will see a combo in the near future, I would bet there are people who have their own combo going now with a little ingenuity. We have a beeper/ecoolar combo, the gps/ecollar combo is a no brainer.

Pretty sure TT is working on one now, may be awhile for the final product, but I hear it's in the works......

FWIW,
Chip

[Dave Quindt]

The beeper/e-collar combo is really two separate units with two separate power supplies, at least the TT product. The only way the two interact is the signal being sent from the collar to turn the beeper on or off.

The problem with a GPS-ecollar combo is going to be the power requirements of the two units. If both draw from one power supply can it be small enough to be usable? The other issue will be whether or not you can use the GPS without the e-collar, for use in competition. If you can't, that will limit the potential market.

A GPS tracker was a logical product for Garmin, as they are in the GPS business. For TT to develop a GPS collar they need to get into technology and applications they have never dealt with before. All for a pretty niche market.

I think it's going to be longer than we think.

JMO,
Dave

[ACooper]

The problem with a GPS-ecollar combo is going to be the power requirements of the two units. If both draw from one power supply can it be small enough to be usable? The other issue will be whether or not you can use the GPS without the e-collar, for use in competition. If you can't, that will limit the potential market.

It will only slightly limit the market, non trialers are the ones keeping the TT, sportdog etc in business. I guess it depends on the demand, if the demand is there garmin, tt, sportdog, or someone will find a way to get it done, but like you said it may be later rather than sooner.

[Mike50]

For those of you running a GPS collar unit. What is the battery life on one charge till you no longer receive a signal telling you were your dog is. My hand held GPS is good for about 6 hrs if I don't play with it. That's with lithium batteries in it.

Are you sure you've got the battery type set for Lithium?

I too get close to 18 hours out of a set of Lithiums. You can also "hot swap" batteries by plugging the unit into a 12 volt outlet using the mini-usb jack. You can then replace the batteries and unplug from the 12v power and the unit will keep tracking the entire time. I tried it last year when I was too lazy to go hunt in the rain and was stuck in the truck.

I'm guessing you could probably do the same thing with one of the portable emergency battery packs that you can use to charge a cell phone with, but have not tried that.

FWIW,
Dave

Sorry didn't mean to mislead you. The GPS I have is a lowrance color unit to help me get unlost when I do. Not a gamin tracking collar combo

[Mike50]

I think if they ever do come out with a all in one combo. It will most likely weight about the same as 2 units do now. Minus the weight of one collar. And since the neck muscle is one of if not the biggest muscles on a dog. Buy both and strap them on.