Miller Bred Pointers

[PntrRookie]

Thought I would throw it open to "open discussion" and not to hi-jack the NC thread...how 'bout them Miller dogs...have at it...

Is it just me or does it seem that in the AA world it does'nt come down to who has the best dog but rather who has the best Miller dog. Ron

Maybe because the "best dog" IS a Miller dog? All seriousness, certain breedings seem to shine in certain venues.

[ymepointer]

Well, not much needs to be said, Mr. Miller really bred a strong line of All age pointers for sure, I have had a few of them they all had big motors and were bird crazy!

[PntrRookie]

I think part of the equation (maybe a big part of it) is where do they go from here. And when we look back 10 years from now will we say the foundation Miller set, was lifted with excellent breedings and upstanding individuals...Phillips...Wiggins...Lester...?

[Ron R]

Well, not much needs to be said, Mr. Miller really bred a strong line of All age pointers for sure, I have had a few of them they all had big motors and were bird crazy!

I pretty much spoke my piece on the hi-jacked thread.

All seriousness, certain breedings seem to shine in certain venues.

I would like to get into this a little but it would be another hi jack.

It seems Elhew does really well in the grouse trials, and Honky Tonk stuff in NBHA (well, when Scott Miller was involved, not sure if that has changed). Is there any dominate bloodline in AF shooting dogs. I'll stop here and see how this goes.

Ron

[kylenicholas02]

But more so, the individuals that own and work the dogs bought off those individuals. I honestly can say, a Miller bred dog isn't for the fate hearted. Big runners, tough minded, and highly intelligent dog needs a certain home and I think a majority of the breeders help support this by placing them in kennels that will trial or work the dogs to their full potential. Alot of various breedings through the years have been diluted (per se) because of the negligence of owners/breeders... But I guess the reasons some hate them is the reason I love them, and can't wait till I get another "white" dog in my kennel...

Oh by the way, the gentleman who started this thread just might be as Miller-biased as me

[birddog1968]

I think part of the equation (maybe a big part of it) is where do they go from here. And when we look back 10 years from now will we say the foundation Miller set, was lifted with excellent breedings and upstanding individuals...Phillips...Wiggins...Lester...?

It seems Mr Millers dogs will be in better hands than Mr Wehle's were left to.......

I see no foreseeable end to the white dogs accomplishments.

[Ron R]

I think part of the equation (maybe a big part of it) is where do they go from here. And when we look back 10 years from now will we say the foundation Miller set, was lifted with excellent breedings and upstanding individuals

The foundation has definately been set in stone but it's still unfortunate that White Powder and Dateline had been cheated from there true winning and producing potential.

Does anybody think that the AF will someday reinstate Mr Ferrel Miller?

Ron

[PntrRookie]

Does anybody think that the AF will someday reinstate Mr Ferrel Miller? Ron

My gut tells me no. I have a funny feeling many of the white dogs out there still have his fingerprint on them (literally).

[topher40]

Ferrel will never be re-instated because of Ferrrel. He cutting of his nose despite his face and I cant honestly say I wouldnt do the same thing given the circumstances. As for Ferrel having a "fingerprint", I can tell you he has MUCH more than just a fingerprint on the present white dogs.

[PntrRookie]

What have been some good Miller crosses - where Online, White Powder or Dateline are up close? My female is NOT Miller (believe it or not). But I do hope to have one in a year or so. Any thoughts? HTA, GuardRail, obviously w/ In the Shadow - Joe Shadow...I personally am not to keen on Elhew, but who knows? Examples?

[Neil]

Interesting.

While true the white dogs have won 4 times in the last 10 years, and impressive record, but hardly as dominating as some are suggesting.

There is a reason that the NC and his two littermate brothers have Shadow in their names, they are giving a lot of credit to the dam side.

I would think you need to consider Wippoorwill, Rebel, White Knight, etc, which is where Miller started.

Neil

[Yawallac]

I'm a Motherline breeder and when I look at many of the biggest winning Miller dogs today, I see ...Nell.

Wiggin's Miss Sammie is a renowned blue hen producer of White dogs ...Nell.
Wiggin's Twist n Shout ...Nell.

obviously w/ In the Shadow - Joe Shadow

Again, most say Joe Shadow, but I say ...Nell. Joe Shadow is by HOF CH Go Boy's Shadow top and bottom. Go Boy's Shadow is by a Nell son, HOF CH Addition's Go Boy.

Another example, look at Erin's Kennel. Nell is in virtually everything he is doing! Be it the Go Boy crosses or the Guard Rail crosses, Nell is a dominant factor in his breeding program.

Go back to Elhew and look at what arguably became the resurrection of his line when he 'outcrossed' to Guard Rail (Nell son) and produced his blue hen Kiwi.

...Don't get me started!!

I honestly can say, a Miller bred dog isn't for the fate hearted.

That hasn't been my experience. They are some of the easiest dogs I have ever trained.





.

[Duane M]

I honestly can say, a Miller bred dog isn't for the fate hearted.

That hasn't been my experience. They are some of the easiest dogs I have ever trained.

Same here, I will take 50 Miller dogs to work any day. Easy, biddable dogs every last one I have ver had, I even foot hunt em every year

[Big Dave]

Here are a few recent National Champions:
Miller's Silver Ending
Miller's True Spirit
Miller's Online
Marques Gold Rush, a Miller's Silver Bullett grandson
Law's High Noon, mother is linebred Miller
Cypress Gunpowder, three crosses to Miller's Silver Bullett
Shell Creek Coin, Miller's Silver Bullett on sire and dams' side
Whippoorwill Wild Card, Miller's Silver Bullett son
Lester's Snowatch, Miller's Dateline son
In The Shadow, Miller's White Powder son
These are just the ones that I could find pedigrees on. There are other good bloodlines both today and yesterday that we don't hear about much because they weren't promoted, or were kept for hunting dogs or were never bred. I figured when both White Powder Pete and In The Shadow were getting alot of internet attention that it might be time to bash Ferrel Miller again. I bet in his retirement and with his past accomplishments he isn't worried about The American Field or internet message boards.

[PntrRookie]

I sure was one pullin for White Powder Pete. He has been close a couple times and rumor has it that may have been his last. Big Dave, I for one am posting this all in support of what Ferrel has done and think he should be thanked!

[Yawallac]

Big Dave, I for one am posting this all in support of what Ferrill has done and think he should be thanked!

I agree.

[springpoint]

I also know that bruce minard is doing alot of winning in the woods with elhew x miller crosses.

[birddogger]

I have hunted with a few Miller dogs and I can see why they make good AA dogs. They were some of the most intense and hard driving, bird crazy dogs that I have seen. Also, they seemed to be naturals. A little polish and obedience training is all that was needed.

That being said, personally, I wouldn't want one. I like a dog that loves his owner and wants to please, and I don't see that in the few Miller bred dogs that I have seen. They are on a mission and nothing else matters. There is not a thing wrong with that, I am just saying that I see why they make great trial dogs. I don't think they would be for your average guy, who wants a good hunting dog and also a pet and companion. I hope this makes sense.

Charlie

[SCKWEST]

i think if you look at wiggin's miss sammie and wiggin's twist n shout while they do both have some go boy in them, they have more miller in them than anything else. addition's go boy was obviously a very good cross with the miller dogs. ferrell even bred the great lady bird directly to go boy! also when talking about some of the nell dogs, it would not be fair to discredit some of the great sires she was bred to especially in the case of joe's shadow, it seems that everyone forgets about the crosses in thetr to ch.fiddler, and as for the argument if ferrell should ever be reinstated, both sides could argue their points forever on that matter. I hated to see the dogs being punished. I agree with Ron R. that not only were dateline and white powder to phenomanal producers that left a legacy, but it is unreal just how strong their impact may have been if they could've continued to have produced pups and what if they had frozen semen off these 2 dogs like many of the other great sires such as go boy. while i don't condone what ferrell did, there was once another great breeder that said " i am selling you the cake, not the recipe". goodluck, sckwest

[Yawallac]

i think if you look at wiggin's miss sammie and wiggin's twist n shout while they do both have some go boy in them, they have more miller in them than anything else.

Obviously. My point was that as a Motherline breeder, I find it very interesting to study the bottoms of pedigrees as well as the tops. Wasn't trying to discredit Miller blood in any way shape or form. We own two White Powder daughters and nine (9) Guard Rail daughters, ALL will be bred to Miller studs.

also when talking about some of the nell dogs, it would not be fair to discredit some of the great sires she was bred to especially in the case of joe's shadow, it seems that everyone forgets about the crosses in thetr to ch.fiddler,

Lots of females were bred to those champions, some produced and some didn't. But Nell produced with all of them! She probably could have produced a Champion from a stump!

and as for the argument if ferrell should ever be reinstated, both sides could argue their points forever on that matter. I hated to see the dogs being punished. I agree with Ron R. that not only were dateline and white powder to phenomanal producers that left a legacy, but it is unreal just how strong their impact may have been if they could've continued to have produced pups and what if they had frozen semen off these 2 dogs like many of the other great sires such as go boy. while i don't condone what ferrell did, there was once another great breeder that said " i am selling you the cake, not the recipe". goodluck, sckwest

I agree.

[Neil]

I have spent a good bit of time on the couch with a littermate of Buster's, Ben Adams, he is a loving, well mannered dog, as are most of the other white dogs I have been around, if they are given the chance.

It is just a myth that they are not personable.

Neil

[PkerStr8Tail]

There is one thing that is for certain. I don't care what competitive sport your talking about, once you reach the top you have a huge target on your back. The target on Ferrel at his peak of success was big indeed. IMO, he made a mistake.......more carelessness than intentional, but I am sure opinions vary. Currently you have many and I do mean MANY people cheating intentionally every day in this game by cheating on paperwork for whelp dates. When you have a sire and a son both competing as derbies at the same time and that doesn't get challenged? This is just one example of many obvious ones happening out there in the game today. Ferrel made a mark that will last in the breed of pointers for a long, long time whether you like him or what he accomplished.

[birddogger]

I have spent a good bit of time on the couch with a littermate of Buster's, Ben Adams, he is a loving, well mannered dog, as are most of the other white dogs I have been around, if they are given the chance.

It is just a myth that they are not personable.

Neil

I won't dispute that Neil. I was expressing my opinion from what I have seen, which is very limited.

Charlie

[PntrRookie]

ALL will be bred to Miller studs.

Ross not that YOU need it, but I would love to help "hook a brother up". I have a couple good ones in mind for ya. I too have a Guardrail/HTA b$&@h that may have a date with Mr. Miller

[birddog1968]

I have spent a good bit of time on the couch with a littermate of Buster's, Ben Adams, he is a loving, well mannered dog, as are most of the other white dogs I have been around, if they are given the chance.

It is just a myth that they are not personable.

Neil

Agree...........

[SCKWEST]

I couldn't agree with you more Neil, the pointers get a horrible rap. It seems like the general consensus is that pointers are high strung dogs that are not good pets and only hunt for themselves. My experience has been the exact opposite. I have young children that go out back with me when i feed and the dogs love them and are as gentle as can be. I have noticed that some of the Miller dogs do seem to be "1-man" dogs, by this i mean that some seem to be very skiddish towards anyone other than their master. However, these Miller dogs are beasts in the field! Ross, Nell was obviously a great producer and played and continues to play a huge role in these dogs! I have two hvy bred Nell dogs myself, with one being a son of go boy to a daughter of honky tonk gigolo and a female that is a sister to your dogs off go boy and impulse. It does seem that the Miller dogs and their crosses are the dominant force in the all age world. The honky tonk attitude dogs really seem to still be a strong force in the NBHA as well as NSTRA. Another thing that I have noticed is that the Elhew dogs seem to cross very well with just about every line out there. good luck and great guys, sckwest

[hoosier]

http://www.phantomkennels.com/happyjack.html

Was this picture taken before or after his run in with the AF?

[PntrRookie]

Was this picture taken before or after his run in with the AF?

My opinion is after. Happy Jack is barely out of his derby seasons, so that only makes him "roughly" 2+ yrs old.

[Yawallac]

with one being a son of go boy to a daughter of honky tonk gigolo

SCKWEST, I almost mentioned Woody when you wrote about the Fiddler influence. He has a very interesting pedigree IMO. He is a beautiful animal and I have been trying to figure out how to work him into our program. He would bring Nell in through Gateway Matador (Fiddler), which we don't currently have. BTW, he just won another Championship here in SC recently. I really like him.

[birddogger]

I couldn't agree with you more Neil, the pointers get a horrible rap. It seems like the general consensus is that pointers are high strung dogs that are not good pets and only hunt for themselves. My experience has been the exact opposite. I have young children that go out back with me when i feed and the dogs love them and are as gentle as can be. I have noticed that some of the Miller dogs do seem to be "1-man" dogs, by this i mean that some seem to be very skiddish towards anyone other than their master. However, these Miller dogs are beasts in the field! Ross, Nell was obviously a great producer and played and continues to play a huge role in these dogs! I have two hvy bred Nell dogs myself, with one being a son of go boy to a daughter of honky tonk gigolo and a female that is a sister to your dogs off go boy and impulse. It does seem that the Miller dogs and their crosses are the dominant force in the all age world. The honky tonk attitude dogs really seem to still be a strong force in the NBHA as well as NSTRA. Another thing that I have noticed is that the Elhew dogs seem to cross very well with just about every line out there. good luck and great guys, sckwest

I guess I am making a mistake of trying to compare them to GSP'S. Don't get upset, just kidding.

Charlie

[Yawallac]

I guess I am making a mistake of trying to compare them to GSP'S.

Charlie, my avatar has a NAVHDA NA 107 Prize II and he's on George Tracy's Shooting Dog string.

If you train them like a GSP, they won't know the difference.

[birdogg42]

Ross, Which miller studs do you have in mind?? Just wondering?

Mike

[Yawallac]

South's Late Night - (Miller's White Powder x Wiggin's Miss Sammie)

[Neil]

I I have noticed that some of the Miller dogs do seem to be "1-man" dogs, by this i mean that some seem to be very skiddish towards anyone other than their master.

I think what you mean is they are not very accepting of strangers, as certainly the current crop of Gary Lester/Joe Don House white dogs are proving that either they or Ike Todd can run them with great success. They seem to adapt quickly.

I am a fan of Ferrel Miller, really I am. It is just the myth is too great a burden for any one man. He was a good breeder, a good developer of young dogs, and a good promoter, but in terms of open All-Age wins, Gary Lester will exceed him as a handler, if he hasn't already. Nearly all of Ferrel's Championship wins were in Amateur and Derby stakes, he won the National Championship - once in 40 years of trying, and never won the Purina Award.

Here are the facts, he cheated, got caught, and wouldn't own up. You can admire the dogs without respecting his methods.

Neil

[Ron R]

Here are the facts, he cheated, got caught, and wouldn't own up. You can admire the dogs without respecting his methods.

Not so sure how factual your facts are.

Ron

[ezzy333]

I I have noticed that some of the Miller dogs do seem to be "1-man" dogs, by this i mean that some seem to be very skiddish towards anyone other than their master.

I think what you mean is they are not very accepting of strangers, as certainly the current crop of Gary Lester/Joe Don House white dogs are proving that either they or Ike Todd can run them with great success. They seem to adapt quickly.

I am a fan of Ferrel Miller, really I am. It is just the myth is too great a burden for any one man. He was a good breeder, a good developer of young dogs, and a good promoter, but in terms of open All-Age wins, Gary Lester will exceed him as a handler, if he hasn't already. Nearly all of Ferrel's Championship wins were in Amateur and Derby stakes, he won the National Championship - once in 40 years of trying, and never won the Purina Award.

Here are the facts, he cheated, got caught, and wouldn't own up. You can admire the dogs without respecting his methods.

Neil

Well said and so very true. The dogs aren't at fault and they aren't suffering. The other breeders are the ones that got hurt when he showed a complete disregard of them and their dogs when he cheated. Hard for me to respect a person like that.

Ezzy

[kylenicholas02]

jkj

[GrayDawg]

While racing, EVERY team I drove for believed it wasn't cheating unless you got caught..

Sorry. That's a monumental cop out for someone who is placing their success over/above the integrity of the sport
they claim they love. It's cheating as soon as you do it! If/when you get caught, you're simply letting everyone else
know that you're a cheater.

Ferrel got caught... And dont think there's not anyone cheating in dogs today...

As someone who doesn't own EPs and certainly doesn't trial at the AA level, for my edification- what was Mr. Miller accused of/caught doing?

Rob

[PntrRookie]

As someone who doesn't own EPs and certainly doesn't trial at the AA level, for my edification- what was Mr. Miller accused of/caught doing? Rob

This thread was NOT started to become a bashing opportunity regarding the past practices of ALL (not just Ferrell), those involved with the American Field and their decision regarding Ferrell Miller. I in NO way have any first hand knowledge, it was way before my time. In a nutshell (and that does not give it the amount of creditability it should). The AF suspended/banned Mr. Miller because he would not agree to their testing/accusation that certain litters were not registered correctly. Thus owners were purchasing dogs that were not registered correctly. Many say it was not only the stud dogs (Miller) that were wrong...other owners of the dams had misrepresented paper work as well. My understanding was that those other individuals did cooperate with the Field and when Mr. Miller put his foot down and said no, they did not accept it.

Let's talk white dogs of today and how the white dogs of yesterday have helped the breed.

Ross, did you get a chance to see SLN and what did you like about him? How is he built? I can not seem to Google any pictures of him.

[Yawallac]

Pntr,

I haven't seen him in person yet and that will need to happen before I use him, but from all accounts, he's a great representation of the White dogs and his paper lines up perfectly with my stuff. My avatar's dam is by Guard Rail and a full sister to SLN. There is a picture or two of him on the Ames site although they aren't great.

(I agree, I hope this thread doesn't go south.)




.

[PntrRookie]

My avatar's dam is by Guard Rail and a full sister to SLN.

Ross, Nice blend and as I stated earlier I am kinda looking forward to a GuardRail/Miller cross. I would like to improve a little on my female's stature, deeper chest and higher tail set. She has the run that will blend well (maybe too well )...all in due time...keep us posted if and when you see him.

[GrayDawg]

As someone who doesn't own EPs and certainly doesn't trial at the AA level, for my edification- what was Mr. Miller accused of/caught doing? Rob

This thread was NOT started to become a bashing opportunity regarding the past practices of ALL (not just Ferrell), those involved with the American Field and their decision regarding Ferrell Miller. I in NO way have any first hand knowledge, it was way before my time. In a nutshell (and that does not give it the amount of creditability it should). The AF suspended/banned Mr. Miller because he would not agree to their testing/accusation that certain litters were not registered correctly. Thus owners were purchasing dogs that were not registered correctly. Many say it was not only the stud dogs (Miller) that were wrong...other owners of the dams had misrepresented paper work as well. My understanding was that those other individuals did cooperate with the Field and when Mr. Miller put his foot down and said no, they did not accept it.

Let's talk white dogs of today and how the white dogs of yesterday have helped the breed.

Ross, did you get a chance to see SLN and what did you like about him? How is he built? I can not seem to Google any pictures of him.

I'm not looking to "bash" Mr. Miller whatsoever. I'm simply trying to learn- come up to speed on what some here are considering/referencing as common knowledge. I did use the term "accused of/caught" when asking my question. Thank you very much for your answer- I now feel "enlightened". Whether the accusations are true or false, only Mr. Miller will ever know. Life goes on..........

Rob

[birddogger]

I guess I am making a mistake of trying to compare them to GSP'S.

Charlie, my avatar has a NAVHDA NA 107 Prize II and he's on George Tracy's Shooting Dog string.

If you train them like a GSP, they won't know the difference.

I agree Ross, like I said I was just kidding. I always had EP'S in the past and did and do love them. I was dogless for a while and when I got back into it, I decided to go with the GSP'S and I have really taken a liking to the breed. However, I love and admire any good bird dog, regardless of the breed. I will admit that I like the looks of the slick hair dogs over the long hairs, but that is just a personal thing. I am always getting little jabs from the EP and Setter people, so I have to give one back from time to time.

Your participation in NAVHDA just shows that they can all be versatile. Congrats on the prize 11 and good luck in the future, if you continue participating in the NAVHDA venue. One of the things I like about NAVHDA is the fact that there is no breed prejudice, and less politics than in the NSTRA trials I have seen.

Charlie

[PntrRookie]

No worries Rob...it was not intended specifically for you. We all hopefully learn from the past and make it better! Let's look at the "Motherside" - if you will. What recent (within 2-3 generations) b@#$hes are producing with Miller studs? Here are a few...

Wiggin's Twist N Shout
Wiggin's Miss Sammie
Phillips Silver Star
Kraftsman's Ko Kane

[Yawallac]

One of the things I like about NAVHDA is the fact that there is no breed prejudice...

Oh yeah!?! NAVHDA test a Pointer and tell me that!

Let's look at the "Motherside" - if you will. What recent (within 2-3 generations) b@#$hes are producing with Miller studs? Here are a few...

Go Boy dams.

[birddogger]

Hey Ross, sorry about calling you Roy. I just now caught it and fixed it. I think I have had too much coffee!

Charlie

[ckirsch]

Not to hijack the thread, but if Miller-bred dogs stand out in the trials, which lines are known to perform best for foot hunters? Are the two tasks mutually exclusive? I read so many questionable comments about trial-bred dogs having too much run for most hunters, and lacking in the areas of tracking cripples, retrieving, and water work. Would you longtime pointer enthusiasts agree that the best trial dog would also likely be the best hunting dog as well, or should those wanting a pointer strictly for a hunting companion look at lines bred specifically to hunt?

[Yawallac]

ckirsch,

If I'm not mistaken, you're NAVHDA UT Prize I Pointer has a fair amount of Miller in him, doesn't he?

So maybe you should tell us if FT bred Pointers make good hunting dogs!!

[ckirsch]

Ross;

As you know, there is indeed some Miller on his pedigree, along with Honkytonk, Rebel, and Elhew. I'm very satisfied with my dog, but being new to pointers, I'm not sure which line should get credit for his attributes, which include excellent retrieving, good nose, decent style, loves water, but most importantly, his very cooperative nature. Seems like his main goal is to make me happy, and that makes him a pretty nice dog to have around.

It appears that HTA is favored among some NSTRA guys for reasons of nose and style. I've heard that Rebel lines often turn out intelligent, cooperative dogs. Miller dogs obviously also perform well. Long story short, I'll probably be coming back to you for another pup in a year or so, and will be interested in a breeding likely to produce a dog similar to the last one you sent me. Trying to do my homework ahead of time.....

[Yawallac]

Craig,

The beauty is that you can take most any "line" of Pointer and do anything you want with it. It has much more to do with the owner than it does the dog. Your dog's sire is by HTA bred to a Miller female. Your dog's dam is 100% Rebel (Dbl Whippoorwill's Rebel). That means that his pedigree is 75% All Age Horseback!