Range in a dog

[Birddogz]

And despite being told dozens of times by different people with dogs of every breed description that they can get it done you still don't believe it?

I have never said I don't believe it. I have said in my experience that NAVHDA type breeders produce pups with a natural range that is easier for me to train. This has been confirmed by numerous NAVHDA breeders that I have spoken to.

[birddog1968]

Then you should probably stick with Navhda dogs, as you tout them as being exactly what you want, in all the threads on this subject. If that's what you truly think than you should stick with them......and enjoy.

[slistoe]

It seems you want a pointer but are concerned that you might have trouble controlling its range to what you determine to be acceptable. You think RC may be able to supply what you want but would like other breeders. Then you start talking NAVHDA. There are no breeders who are designing a breeding program with pointers aimed at success in NAVHDA. None. There have been a handful of folks who have ventured to test in NAVHDA with a pointer and have finished a couple of VC's I believe. But that is pretty thin pickings.
If you want a pointer you should hook up with the National Bird Hunters Association, the US Complete Shooting Dog Association, the American Bird Hunters Association or any of the AFTCA clubs in the east hosting the Walking Shooting Dog Championships and any of the Grouse Dog trial clubs. The folks breeding and running dogs in all of those venues have already filtered the All Age and Horseback Shooting Dog blood to those dogs that can be handled from foot but still display the style, drive, intensity, trainability and handle to win in competition.
Otherwise buy a dog from a NAVHDA breeder and forget about the Pointer.

[Birddogz]

I will, I'm just gathering info on what breeders are the most successful. Regardless of breed.

I'm trying to find out which PPs are most successful,EPs, Britts,DD/GWPs, etc. I don't want to be kennel or breed blind. This is a forum for gathering info. I'm just picking the brains of people who enjoy bird dogs.

What I don't understand is why certain people will not concede that some breedings/dogs Not breeds, breedings. and specific dogs within those breedings) run too big for foot hunters. Every NAVHDA breeder I have spoken to agrees with that statement, yet people will argue the point. There seems to be some sort of denial factor, that some dogs run with too much octane for certain circumstances. I'm not talking about you 1968, you have admitted as much. I have run into this before. Some folks "tow the company line" so to speak and stay loyal to exactly what their particular dog events states as fact. Well, that is narrow minded, and flat out ridiculous. Any one living in the real world knows there are variations in dogs, and some are better than others at certain things. There is no perfect dog, and there certainly is no perfect range. You can only hope for a dog with the intelligence and personality to hunt as you desire. There is an arrogance displayed by some that somehow big ranging dogs that don't hunt by quartering are better. Better? Shouldn't that be judged by what the owner wants? How about by the success of the hunter. I know for certain that in late season a quartering dog and hunter will be VERY successful on pheasants. I dare say more so than dogs running big. I've done it for almost 30 years. Somehow this is dismissed. As if somehow what I have seen happen over and over isn't real. My God, pointing labs must be useless! In actuality they are awesome on phez.

I have agreed time and time again that a dog running to objectives for Huns, Sharpies, quail, at good range is the right way to go. Some just will never allow their ego to admit that a dog hunting tight with a quartering pattern in 4 inches of snow and quartering will out perform a dog ranging too far. It is stated all the time that dogs adjust. I agree, they do. So why can't a good dog adjust to quartering when it is necessary? They can and do. Some how that is beneath some. Reminds me of the guys who endlessly throw fly rods at giant snook and catch zip. Throw a fresh ladyfish on and BAM! The fly rod guy is disgusted as the live bait fisherman destroys him. The arrogance is what seeps out time and time again, some how certain people know more, even though they hunt less and harvest less.

[Birddogz]

It seems you want a pointer but are concerned that you might have trouble controlling its range to what you determine to be acceptable. You think RC may be able to supply what you want but would like other breeders. Then you start talking NAVHDA. There are no breeders who are designing a breeding program with pointers aimed at success in NAVHDA. None. There have been a handful of folks who have ventured to test in NAVHDA with a pointer and have finished a couple of VC's I believe. But that is pretty thin pickings.
If you want a pointer you should hook up with the National Bird Hunters Association, the US Complete Shooting Dog Association, the American Bird Hunters Association or any of the AFTCA clubs in the east hosting the Walking Shooting Dog Championships and any of the Grouse Dog trial clubs. The folks breeding and running dogs in all of those venues have already filtered the All Age and Horseback Shooting Dog blood to those dogs that can be handled from foot but still display the style, drive, intensity, trainability and handle to win in competition.
Otherwise buy a dog from a NAVHDA breeder and forget about the Pointer.

Ross and Kirsch would disagree. I believe pointers have never been entered in enough NAVHDA events. I think in the future they will do well. They have what it takes. I believe that EPs will be bred for NAVHDA in the future more and more. Ross has assured me that his dogs do well in NAVHDA and Kirsch has proved it. My only concern has been coat, not ability.

[birddog1968]

Nothing about a pointer should ever be changed to accomodate navhda..... If you want a pointer with a coat there are plenty of other breeds to chose from.


edit-
A pattern is developing in these threads about pointers and range and can they waterfowl hunt....and how navhda dogs do it all. An argumentative and opinion based run down on pointers (just how it comes off and in multiple threads, started by you mostly). That's why your getting some flak IMHO.

Its kinda smells of a bait and argue type game, and that your really not interested in what anyone has to say.....

Just being honest Bud. nobody has posted here to bust your B@!!s , but have actually engaged your topic, just not to your satisfaction.

[slistoe]

I will, I'm just gathering info on what breeders are the most successful. Regardless of breed.

I'm trying to find out which PPs are most successful,EPs, Britts,DD/GWPs, etc. I don't want to be kennel or breed blind. This is a forum for gathering info. I'm just picking the brains of people who enjoy bird dogs.

What I don't understand is why certain people will not concede that some breedings/dogs Not breeds, breedings. and specific dogs within those breedings) run too big for foot hunters. Every NAVHDA breeder I have spoken to agrees with that statement, yet people will argue the point. There seems to be some sort of denial factor, that some dogs run with too much octane for certain circumstances. I'm not talking about you 1968, you have admitted as much. I have run into this before. Some folks "tow the company line" so to speak and stay loyal to exactly what their particular dog events states as fact. Well, that is narrow minded, and flat out ridiculous. Any one living in the real world knows there are variations in dogs, and some are better than others at certain things. There is no perfect dog, and there certainly is no perfect range. You can only hope for a dog with the intelligence and personality to hunt as you desire. There is an arrogance displayed by some that somehow big ranging dogs that don't hunt by quartering are better. Better? Shouldn't that be judged by what the owner wants? How about by the success of the hunter. I know for certain that in late season a quartering dog and hunter will be VERY successful on pheasants. I dare say more so than dogs running big. I've done it for almost 30 years. Somehow this is dismissed. As if somehow what I have seen happen over and over isn't real. My God, pointing labs must be useless! In actuality they are awesome on phez.

I have agreed time and time again that a dog running to objectives for Huns, Sharpies, quail, at good range is the right way to go. Some just will never allow their ego to admit that a dog hunting tight with a quartering pattern in 4 inches of snow and quartering will out perform a dog ranging too far. It is stated all the time that dogs adjust. I agree, they do. So why can't a good dog adjust to quartering when it is necessary? They can and do. Some how that is beneath some. Reminds me of the guys who endlessly throw fly rods at giant snook and catch zip. Throw a fresh ladyfish on and BAM! The fly rod guy is disgusted as the live bait fisherman destroys him. The arrogance is what seeps out time and time again, some how certain people know more, even though they hunt less and harvest less.

The only arrogance on here is you. You can shoot a limit of pheasant in most places without a dog. The type of dog is rather pointless. You just hunt differently. A fellow with a flushing dog - whether it be a springer, cocker, lab or some variety of pointing breed - will hunt in different areas and in a different manner than the fellow with classically trained pointing dogs. You come on here spouting how it cannot be and you get a dozen folks telling you they are doing it. Your reply is "Why are you so arrogant and won't admit it cannot be done." All your talk of late season SD phez reminds me of a couple other posters on various boards who liked to assign mythical qualities to the grouse in Penn. and the pheasants in Iowa. The truth is that good dogs will find and handle birds. There are good dogs and poor dogs in all venues from All Age Prairie trials to the 15 acre Put n Take Preserve hunters and everything in between.
Back to your original post.Page 55 in Delmar Smith's book. A quote from Delmar at a training seminar " You can't win anything with a dog that won't handle". I would say you can't hunt anything that won't handle either. If the dog will handle, hunt him where and how you want.

[ezzy333]

One note about range; most bird hunters are terrible at range estimation. It takes practice. I've had people watch my dog run and say she was a quarter mile out. The Astro said 200 yards.

I've learned to believe precious little about dog range unless that dog is wearing a gps unit.

Oh so very true. Not sure anyone really understands haw far1500 yards is. There isn't a one of us that can see a dog at that range, very few places on earth that are flat enough to see a dog at that range or the dog see you, and there is no one that can walk to a dog on point at that rage in less than 10 minutes and most would take 15 to twenty minutes. Ive had our dogs on practically bare ground at 400 yards and the only thing I saw was movement and never could see the dog that was pointing. I sure love to see a dog run and hunt so under most conditions they better stay somewhere in the range of 50 to 400 yards. That's a 1/4 of a mile and beyond that they are hard to see and impossible to find if they are standing in cover.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

One note about range; most bird hunters are terrible at range estimation. It takes practice. I've had people watch my dog run and say she was a quarter mile out. The Astro said 200 yards.

I've learned to believe precious little about dog range unless that dog is wearing a gps unit.

Oh so very true. Not sure anyone really understands haw far1500 yards is. There isn't a one of us that can see a dog at that range, very few places on earth that are flat enough to see a dog at that range or the dog see you, and there is no one that can walk to a dog on point at that rage in less than 10 minutes and most would take 15 to twenty minutes. Ive had our dogs on practically bare ground at 400 yards and the only thing I saw was movement and never could see the dog that was pointing. I sure love to see a dog run and hunt so under most conditions they better stay somewhere in the range of 50 to 400 yards. That's a 1/4 of a mile and beyond that they are hard to see and impossible to find if they are standing in cover.

Ezzy

The Tracker is a beautiful thing.......

[Birddogz]

One note about range; most bird hunters are terrible at range estimation. It takes practice. I've had people watch my dog run and say she was a quarter mile out. The Astro said 200 yards.

I've learned to believe precious little about dog range unless that dog is wearing a gps unit.

Oh so very true. Not sure anyone really understands haw far1500 yards is. There isn't a one of us that can see a dog at that range, very few places on earth that are flat enough to see a dog at that range or the dog see you, and there is no one that can walk to a dog on point at that rage in less than 10 minutes and most would take 15 to twenty minutes. Ive had our dogs on practically bare ground at 400 yards and the only thing I saw was movement and never could see the dog that was pointing. I sure love to see a dog run and hunt so under most conditions they better stay somewhere in the range of 50 to 400 yards. That's a 1/4 of a mile and beyond that they are hard to see and impossible to find if they are standing in cover.

Ezzy

Amen

[Birddogz]

The only arrogance on here is you. You can shoot a limit of pheasant in most places without a dog. The type of dog is rather pointless. You just hunt differently. A fellow with a flushing dog - whether it be a springer, cocker, lab or some variety of pointing breed - will hunt in different areas and in a different manner than the fellow with classically trained pointing dogs. You come on here spouting how it cannot be and you get a dozen folks telling you they are doing it. Your reply is "Why are you so arrogant and won't admit it cannot be done." All your talk of late season SD phez reminds me of a couple other posters on various boards who liked to assign mythical qualities to the grouse in Penn. and the pheasants in Iowa. The truth is that good dogs will find and handle birds. There are good dogs and poor dogs in all venues from All Age Prairie trials to the 15 acre Put n Take Preserve hunters and everything in between.
Back to your original post.Page 55 in Delmar Smith's book. A quote from Delmar at a training seminar " You can't win anything with a dog that won't handle". I would say you can't hunt anything that won't handle either. If the dog will handle, hunt him where and how you want.[/quote]


Did you or did you not make a snide comment about Quartering dogs? You did.

Did you not make a snide comment about 40 acre patches of cover and getting a dog that won't range. I believe the comment said something about people not understanding a dog that ranges properly. You did.

I agree that a person can shoot a limit of phez without a dog. My point is that the dog should increase the rate and recovery of the bird to its fullest. It is the efficiency of the hunt that the dog increases. If it weren't that way no one would have ever used dogs to hunt in the first place.

I totally agree with handling. You are right, a dog that won't handle is a waste of dog food.

[slistoe]

Hmm.. Not sure what you are thinking about that I said about quartering dogs. I have owned and hunted with dogs that wanted to quarter in a stubble field - completely useless waste of time. There were pieces of cover that I would put those dogs down in. Quartering with a pointing dog at flushing dog range is a waste of the potential of the pointing dog. In true monolithic cover a wide quartering pattern such as is seen in the beet fields or winter wheat fields of Europe is quite useful. If the dog will handle you can have him quarter at your wish.

There is nothing snide about the 40 acre patch comment. If you have nothing else to hunt but tiny coverts with artificial boundaries then getting a dog bred from dogs that can't/won't range out will increase the likliehood that the dog you get will not either. Then you can hunt them in those coverts without worrying about trying to train them to stay in bounds. Especially with those ultra spooky birds that will flush at the hint of a command to the dog.

When birds are plentiful the use of a dog is moot until after the birds are on the ground. That is where the Lab rules - Do No Harm is their motto. But most any breed of bird indicator will do. When birds are few and far between a hunting dog is what is required.

[Birddogz]

"When birds are plentiful the use of a dog is moot until after the birds are on the ground. That is where the Lab rules - Do No Harm is their motto. But most any breed of bird indicator will do. When birds are few and far between a hunting dog is what is required."


This is a very strange comment. I guess people should be flocking to South East Ohio to hunt grouse then. Forget about Northern Wisconsin, there are too many grouse there. Go some where with very low bird densities to test your dog's ability to hunt? :roll: Don't travel to ND to bird hunt, instead take your dogs to Southern Louisiana and hunt quail. Any dog can find birds where there are a bunch. :roll: What?

So if birds are plentiful, leave the pointing dogs at home? No need for a bird dog if there are lots of birds. Yikes! I have NEVER in all my days heard a bird hunter speak about the use of dogs in this way.

[jayhawkj]

I agree Z, that was one that made me shake my head also? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[BigShooter]

I won't argue about how well various people estimate ranges. For those of us fortunate enough to hunt the prairies there are section lines virtually every mile(1,760 yards). Most section lines are quite visible with at least a two rut road. If you walk for a little while & see your dog approaching the next section line I think it is a bit easier to guesstimate the distance involved.

Around here the sections are crossfenced into quarters. Fence every 1/2 mile. Now I don't know what your eyes are like but I have a tough time picking out a dog at the half mile. I can honestly say that I have never seen a dog at a mile without some sort of visual aid.

My only point was that is is a bit easier to guesstimate range when you have a known distance point of reference, be it a fence or a road, after 40 acres(1/4 mile), 80 acres (1/2 mile) or 160 acres (1 mile). If you're walking a prairie section & cross a fence after 80 acres you know you are 880 yards from the next section line that's all. Circumstances vary. Obviously standing on a hillside, on a clear day trying to spot a moving white object on a short cropped green field doesn't compare with trying to spot a dog in cover over the highest part of it's body. Scott, I believe you when you say you've never seen a dog with the naked eye at a mile however I'm not sure how that relates to using known points of reference to guesstimate distances.

In ND you better know a little something about distances & points of reference because it is illegal to discharge a firearm within 440 yards of an occupied building without occupant permission. I routinely bring binoculars & range finding equipment.

[slistoe]

"When birds are plentiful the use of a dog is moot until after the birds are on the ground. That is where the Lab rules - Do No Harm is their motto. But most any breed of bird indicator will do. When birds are few and far between a hunting dog is what is required."


This is a very strange comment. I guess people should be flocking to South East Ohio to hunt grouse then. Forget about Northern Wisconsin, there are too many grouse there. Go some where with very low bird densities to test your dog's ability to hunt? :roll: Don't travel to ND to bird hunt, instead take your dogs to Southern Louisiana and hunt quail. Any dog can find birds where there are a bunch. :roll: What?

So if birds are plentiful, leave the pointing dogs at home? No need for a bird dog if there are lots of birds. Yikes! I have NEVER in all my days heard a bird hunter speak about the use of dogs in this way.

I didn't think the comment was that strange, but I sure find your response to be off the wall. That is a real stretch to take what I said and extrapolate it to you shouldn't hunt where and when birds are plentiful. What is it that you don't understand about the fact that when birds are plentiful you don't NEED a dog to find enough birds to shoot at. We hunt with dogs in those conditions because we want to, not because we need to. There are other folks (and lots of them if you are in my area) who would not take a dog to go bird hunting. They see them as nothing more than a liability. They know when and where the birds are and how to get a shot at them. They don't need nor want a dog. And there is nothing wrong with that IMO. When the birds are on a down year they stay home because they don't have a dog and they aren't afraid to take pot shots at the guys who do for putting undue pressure on a stressed resource (and there is something wrong with that IMO).

[slistoe]

Scott, I believe you when you say you've never seen a dog with the naked eye at a mile however I'm not sure how that relates to using known points of reference to guesstimate distances.

In ND you better know a little something about distances & points of reference because it is illegal to discharge a firearm within 440 yards of an occupied building without occupant permission. I routinely bring binoculars & range finding equipment.

It's 220 yards here. Amazing how many times that law is ignored.

I am completely with you on having known markers, was just wondering about your statement of seeing the dog approach the section line fence.

In the National Chicken Championship held in Mortlach each year some of the biggest running All Age Pointers get to show their stuff in a venue built for the purpose. The writeups are at www.region14aftca.com Distances are seldom mentioned unless they are significant. It is interesting to see what is considered significant.

[Birddogz]

You are simply trying to say that a dog quartering is a waste of a pointing dog. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't. A pointing dog's job is to point birds that can be shot. If a dog quarters and stays out to 100 yards in the late season he is doing his job because he will point loads of birds. I have had one dog point probably 60-80 in one day. Most were hens, obviously. Now that dog did it's job. Now, if he quarters in an open, endless prairie, then yes that is a waste. My point is a quartering pointing dog in certain situations is the perfect weapon. I understand that you will never believe this, but I have tried.

[slistoe]

Man alive, do you have a reading comprehension problem. I said that having a pointing dog quartering in flushing dog range would be a waste of the potential of a pointing dog. How you make that into a quartering dog is a waste of a pointing dog I do not know.

[Birddogz]

It isn't a waste of potential if they are pointing many birds. It is only a waste if they are not finding game.

[slistoe]

If the dog never gets more than 25 yards from you because it can't get further than that without ever finding a bird that is one thing (rather fictitious IMO, but whatever). If the dog is being artificially constrained to 25 yards and making a turn then you are not utilizing the major purpose for putting a pointing dog on the ground. In Europe where the dogs are expected to make a flat quartering pattern through monolithic cover of 6" sugar beets to search for randomly dispersed pairs of birds they expect the Pointers to run a beat of 150+ yards. The penalty for missing a bird is DQ. Other breeds do not have the same expectation with the Brittany coursing a beat of about half that distance. The interesting thing is that I could never pin any of the people on the other side of the pond to commit to a forward rate of progression of the handler. Normal pace of hunting is the best I could garner.

[BigShooter]

I am completely with you on having known markers, was just wondering about your statement of seeing the dog approach the section line fence.

No one in this thread said they saw a dog a mile away with the unaided eye. Personally I never used the term section line fence. It's a lot easier to see a section line gravel road approximately three car widths wide than to spot a fence from any distance.

I suggest it might be an improvement to avoid adding words like "section line fence" not used by the poster quoted. I submit it is also better to avoid making a statement like "Now I don't know what your eyes are like but ..... I can honestly say that I have never seen a dog at a mile without some sort of visual aid." when the poster never said they saw a dog a mile away with unaided eyes.

I can honestly say any improvement in quotation accuracy will be appreciated.

[slistoe]

Ok. My bad for assuming that when you said "& see your dog approaching the next section line I think it is a bit easier to guesstimate the distance involved." that you might be on the first section line. I know for myself that if I am partway across the quarter that even when the dog is on the half mile fence it is tough to estimate precisely how far away that is, even if I turn around to see the relative distance to the fence I left - is it 200 and 650 or 300 and 550? I do play the distance game frequently since it is good practice for coyote and deer season.
The only point I was making is that if your reference points were roads/fences a mile apart it would be a large margin for error. In your later post you added more fence lines between the roads for additional references which would make your situation identical to my situation. I had a dog one time that would make the fence on the far side of the quarter and work the downwind edge of it. If I am paying attention I can watch a dog at 1/2 mile.
Funny how when you chastised me for turning your two rut road into a fence you made it into a 3 car gravel.

[Birddogz]

If the dog never gets more than 25 yards from you because it can't get further than that without ever finding a bird that is one thing (rather fictitious IMO, but whatever). If the dog is being artificially constrained to 25 yards and making a turn then you are not utilizing the major purpose for putting a pointing dog on the ground. In Europe where the dogs are expected to make a flat quartering pattern through monolithic cover of 6" sugar beets to search for randomly dispersed pairs of birds they expect the Pointers to run a beat of 150+ yards. The penalty for missing a bird is DQ. Other breeds do not have the same expectation with the Brittany coursing a beat of about half that distance. The interesting thing is that I could never pin any of the people on the other side of the pond to commit to a forward rate of progression of the handler. Normal pace of hunting is the best I could garner.

Slistoe, where have I ever mentioned wanting a dog quartering at 25 yards? I said 75-100, and the reason they don't range further is because there are a ton of birds in front of them.

[dan v]

Around here the sections are crossfenced into quarters. Fence every 1/2 mile. Now I don't know what your eyes are like but I have a tough time picking out a dog at the half mile. I can honestly say that I have never seen a dog at a mile without some sort of visual aid.

Amen.

[BigShooter]

To whom it may apply,

All too often posters seek to make a point or improve their position by manipulating prior posts. I submit it is better to make a point without unneccessarily irritating someone else. It is possible to sound intelligent & make a positive educational contribution without starting arguments. It's an acquired skill that requires some forethought & practice.

One technique is to ask a clarifying question like "I read your post. Are you saying that under any conditions you can see a dog a mile away approaching a section line fence and that helps you guesstimate the distance?" or "I read your post. I took it to mean this, ............ Is that what you meant to say or is that the point you were trying to make?"

However if you are a poster that just likes to stir the pot, irritate others & spar for the fun of it I'm certain for some period of time you will get the desired reactions you seek on this forum.

[slistoe]

To whom may be interested:
Sometimes in the brevity and other constraints of forum posting I have typed things that weren't exactly what I meant or did not read as intended. Thankfully there are many on these threads that will quickly point out where I went wrong and I can restate my point. That is the beauty, not the bane, of these forums.

Bigshooter, I apologize for adding the word fence when referring to the comment you made regarding section lines. It is common terminology around here to talk of the section line fence. I did not mean to cause you angst.

Whether it is a fence, a road or the Hoover Dam, I still can't see a dog on it from a mile away. But I am quite capable of following a Prairie All Age dog on horseback and keeping tabs with it.

[BigShooter]

Scott,

I took your original post to mean you did not believe I could see a dog a mile away approaching a section line. Furthermore I understood you to suggest no person can make out a section line from a significant distance. I never said I saw a dog a mile away as it approached a section line fence, you just made that up. In order to make up a BS challenge to my post you had to make two critical, untrue changes to what I posted about how objectives of a known distance enhance range guesstimation:

1." Most section lines are quite visible with at least a two rut road." was changed by you to a section line fence. Nearly all of the gravel roads in many of the Plains States are built along the section lines. In many areas wide gravel section line roads to handle farming equipment & 18 wheelers for grain transport are frequent & commonplace. These roads are quite visible from a significant distance.

2. "If you walk for a little while & see your dog approaching the next section line" was changed to - Now I don't know what your eyes are like but ...... I have never seen a dog at a mile without some sort of visual aid.

An unspecified distance between the observer and the dog approaching the section line was changed by you to a mile. The original post never stated whether seeing the dog approach the next section line was unaided or not. Personally I frequently bring full size & pocket binoculars as well as a rangefinder.

Scott, I believe I have noticed a pattern of posts calling BS accompanied by not infrequent ficticious manipulations of what another contributor posted to suit your purpose. Even in this thread I am not the only one that has noted their post was misquoted & changed to something they never said just so you can cast them in a poor light or further the position you want to take.

Personally I really don't care if you disagree but if you change what I said in order to call BS I'll call you on it. I've read these excuses before.