Training and Genetics
- Winchey
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Training and Genetics
Does anyone know if training a dog to a high level contributes anything if said dog was bread? Or is it simply an indication that the dog can handle training. I have always thought that you have what you are born with, until I seen a brief news story about how there was a study that indicated that smoking can change your DNA, just got me thinking. Just wondering if training, environment, yadayada contributes anything to a breeding. I am not sure if I am being clear but hypotheticaly I want to know if you took two identical breeding pairs, hunted and trained one pair extensively, and the other pair never left the house, would the pups of each pair be the same or would the trained pairs be better?
P.S. I realize it is not possible to evaluate if dogs should be bread unless you hunt, test, trial them etc... Totaly hypothetical.
P.S. I realize it is not possible to evaluate if dogs should be bread unless you hunt, test, trial them etc... Totaly hypothetical.
- ACooper
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Re: Training and Genetics
There was a study a published few years ago (maybe several) the hypothesis was that learned behavior could be passed on to offspring. The study had some interesting findings not sure it was enough for me to believe.
Wish I could find it.
Wish I could find it.
Re: Training and Genetics
I think a dam can teach her pups some things she has possibly learned but there would be no way it would effect the genes that the pups inherit.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: Training and Genetics
You should do some reading on Lamarck. Start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lamarck
The communists were enamored by his theories and it set back biology in the USSR for decades. Nevertheless, there is a very active field of epigenetics, that is heritable traits that are not encoded in the genome itself as the primary sequence of the DNA. These epigenetic mechanisms can be influenced by experience, and also be heritable to various extents. Basically though, the training does not result in heritable traits. So do some google searches on epigenetics and you will learn some of the complexities that affect heritable traits.
Here is one example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/healt ... .html?_r=1
Solon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lamarck
The communists were enamored by his theories and it set back biology in the USSR for decades. Nevertheless, there is a very active field of epigenetics, that is heritable traits that are not encoded in the genome itself as the primary sequence of the DNA. These epigenetic mechanisms can be influenced by experience, and also be heritable to various extents. Basically though, the training does not result in heritable traits. So do some google searches on epigenetics and you will learn some of the complexities that affect heritable traits.
Here is one example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/healt ... .html?_r=1
Solon
- kninebirddog
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Re: Training and Genetics
It is amazing what hard wiring can go on in a breeding specially when one pays attention
Environment can have some effects also for sure but if something is not in a dog to begin with it doesn't miraculously appear from no where
I have seen traits get passed on goofy things like bob has a setter who has an annoying circling trait and her daughter circles same way with the same look I mean carbon copy clone to how her mother does
to some neurotic behaviors even when said pups were raised by another bitch.
To some jumping traits when a dog gets excited..not that they jump but how they jump
how a dog can have a bit of a black heart and how the progeny will have some of the same black hearted traits if not worked right
Even have a line of setters who jump around the chain gang the same way
Environment can have some effects also for sure but if something is not in a dog to begin with it doesn't miraculously appear from no where
I have seen traits get passed on goofy things like bob has a setter who has an annoying circling trait and her daughter circles same way with the same look I mean carbon copy clone to how her mother does
to some neurotic behaviors even when said pups were raised by another bitch.
To some jumping traits when a dog gets excited..not that they jump but how they jump
how a dog can have a bit of a black heart and how the progeny will have some of the same black hearted traits if not worked right
Even have a line of setters who jump around the chain gang the same way
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
Re: Training and Genetics
My male Brittany has taught my DD how to steal food. I mean the exact same style of attack.
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.
- kninebirddog
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Re: Training and Genetics
Birddogz wrote:My male Brittany has taught my DD how to steal food. I mean the exact same style of attack.
LMAO next will be DD will get into trouble for what the Brittany has started ..
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
- Winchey
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Re: Training and Genetics
So I did some reading and basically if I got the jist of it, all that could come from training is the occasional, or fluke passing on of something that was developed by training to the next generation and maybe a couple more before it fizzled out?
-
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Re: Training and Genetics
i think certain things can be passed on. i believe bob wehle touched on ir briefly in snakefoot.
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Re: Training and Genetics
A few years ago I was doing some research and read through the University of Minnesota studies of human maternal (identical) twins raised apart. Many of the subjects didn't even know they were a twin. In a number of cases the similarities between twins was astounding. Examples would be like: two male twins raised apart , they both smoked cigarettes and used the same brand, they both wore the same style hat, the both owned handguns of the same caliber, they had similar jobs, they married women with striking similarities, etc. Many similar traits that one might not necessary think of as genetically linked.
I don't think we have much evidence that training gets passed down very well if at all otherwise more All Age dogs would be producing more AA offspring rather than the "drag of the breed" that we tend to experience.
The more we learn, the more we figure out how little we know, but many of us are "legends in our own minds" anyway, for sure.
I don't think we have much evidence that training gets passed down very well if at all otherwise more All Age dogs would be producing more AA offspring rather than the "drag of the breed" that we tend to experience.
The more we learn, the more we figure out how little we know, but many of us are "legends in our own minds" anyway, for sure.
Mark
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
- Winchey
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Re: Training and Genetics
I was just thinking that epigenetics may be responsible for a dog like the last setter to win at Ames, Boi, and how he was not much of a producer. I am most certainly over simplyfying but does it make sense that epigenetics would be responsible for some of the phenoms in the feild that don't seem to produce themselves?
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Re: Training and Genetics
W,Winchey wrote:I was just thinking that epigenetics may be responsible for a dog like the last setter to win at Ames, Boi, and how he was not much of a producer. I am most certainly over simplyfying but does it make sense that epigenetics would be responsible for some of the phenoms in the feild that don't seem to produce themselves?
You might have to rephrase the question because obviously the offspring are not clones & the other half of the genes in offspring come from the other parent.
Mark
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
Willows Back In The Saddle
Tall Pines Hits The Spot
Tall Pines Queen Eleanor
Bo Dixie's Rocky
TALL PINES MOONBEAM
______________________________________________________
If it ain't broke - fix it
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Re: Training and Genetics
And that doesn't even address the issue that the genes responsible for the performances of those "phenoms in the field" are not necessarily the same genes passed when those dogs are bred.BigShooter wrote:
W,
You might have to rephrase the question because obviously the offspring are not clones & the other half of the genes in offspring come from the other parent.
- Winchey
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Re: Training and Genetics
Well obviously there is many factors that would apply. I am not trying to lay down a definitive reason, I am just wondering if that could be one of the possible reasons.
Re: Training and Genetics
I am hoping good genetics get passed along and my sub-par dog training does not!
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3600
"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"
"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"
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Re: Training and Genetics
It is a very interesting question. I dont think there is any doubt that there are individual traits passed on from both parents. As far as learned responses being developed in a parent and then passed on I don't know? What about attitude? Is that passed on? I would think so but of course the environment and training would have an effect. I think they are wired in such a way that you would see similar responses to a similar stimulus in a specific breeding especially if they are out of proven performers for several generations. Isn't that why we try to hedge our bet on a breeding with a strong pedigree with performers for several generations?
I'm betting there are more than a few traits we would like to try and instill in our dogs and have them passed on. Ahhhhh the perfect dog? Kind of an oxymoron? The perfect wife, kid, whatever?
Gary
http://www.poudrerivergundogs.com
I'm betting there are more than a few traits we would like to try and instill in our dogs and have them passed on. Ahhhhh the perfect dog? Kind of an oxymoron? The perfect wife, kid, whatever?
Gary
http://www.poudrerivergundogs.com
Re: Training and Genetics
Well I have the perfect wife and kids......at least thats what they tell me when I'm in doubt!
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3600
"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"
"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"
- Crestonegsp
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Re: Training and Genetics
Looking at horses, in the case of Secretariat never produced another foal that was able to win but did produce brood mares that produced some great stallions and race winners. Barbaro has a full brother that is not as good as he was so given that training and other factors can cause one offspring to perform better than another. Living here in the middle of the Bluegrass region of Kentucky and the TB industry I see all they put into getting these horses in research and trials. One of the biggest factors that they all agree on is where the foal is born and what they graze on their first two years of their life. Looking at what is passed along does not always come out in the next generation but can be passed along the next generation and giving you above average performance in the second generation but not the same level as before because of the drag of the race.
A pro dog trainer told me he had one line of dogs that would not stay broke, he had to every week during trial season take those dogs back through a refresher in breaking every week even it they ran the week before and won. What happened here with these dogs, can they not retain of was is a process of how they were raised by the owner?
A pro dog trainer told me he had one line of dogs that would not stay broke, he had to every week during trial season take those dogs back through a refresher in breaking every week even it they ran the week before and won. What happened here with these dogs, can they not retain of was is a process of how they were raised by the owner?
Dan Schoenfelder
CH/FC PVR's Rugerheim Smokin' Liberty
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CH/FC PVR's Rugerheim Smokin' Liberty
CH/RUCH PVR's Rugerheim Double Shot
PVR N' Rugerheim Vendetta Ride
Rugerheim's Final Frontier