What holds Newb's back from Trialing?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:56 pm

JKP wrote:
That's the thing. Why can't the dogs do both?
I agree..as long as the final word is on wild game. I don't field trial but every time I look in the freezer, I don't know how I'm gonna eat all those birds/ducks/geese/rabbits!!! doggone slack tailed bootlickers!!! Guess I should trial more and hunt less...that way I'll be doing the responsible thing and eating everything I shoot...yup!!!...sounds like a plan

This is getting funny. Why is it so hard for posers to admit they are such? You either are an avid hunter, or you are not. Easy. I would love to compare freezers. Most guys don't have the guts to do so. Oh, I know, it isn't about the harvest.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:00 pm

This is getting funny. Why is it so hard for posers to admit they are such? You either are an avid hunter, or you are not. Easy.

So uh, real deal what do your dogs do from say February to September when you are gone fishing?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:14 pm

No it isn't about the harvest, and think about Birddogz...I have really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt ... but this is about you needing validation for what you do from others but you don't have the guts to take an established route in doing it. You have said it yourself, you get frustrated because people don't believe you know...well you have two problems there, you have never done what some others have and your metrics for success are set by you and you alone. You should take the applause from your family it sounds like you have provided quite well, and the accolades and respect for your advanced education and success as a public servant (truly a doctor and a teacher are worthy) ... and hunt your dogs. You don't want to learn more about training than you already know.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:19 pm

My old dogs point more lizards through screens than any in the country! LOL I run my dogs in mid March , April, and early May. Then I send my 2 year old to a trainer for the summer. My DD will retrieve 200-300 geese in the spring. Just doing our part to save the Reindeer lichen in the arctic circle. Conservation, always at the pinnacle of our thoughts.

My old dogs are simply "chillin". September, October, November, December.....March, April, May, is enough for old dogs. My DD gets 3 months out of 12 off.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:33 pm

Birddogz wrote:This is getting funny. Why is it so hard for posers to admit they are such? You either are an avid hunter, or you are not. Easy. I would love to compare freezers. Most guys don't have the guts to do so. Oh, I know, it isn't about the harvest.

I suspect that you're the only one into "comparing freezers". Not sure it has much to do with "guts", but if it makes you feel any better, I can assure you that we are all very, very impressed with your incredible hunting prowess, your uncanny ability to withstand arctic temperatures, and your unparalleled canine know-how. You are indeed the standard against which all others are measured, and nobody else even comes close. Congratulations.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:38 pm

ckirsch wrote:
Birddogz wrote:This is getting funny. Why is it so hard for posers to admit they are such? You either are an avid hunter, or you are not. Easy. I would love to compare freezers. Most guys don't have the guts to do so. Oh, I know, it isn't about the harvest.
I suspect that you're the only one into "comparing freezers". Not sure it has much to do with "guts", but if it makes you feel any better, I can assure you that we are all very, very impressed with your incredible hunting prowess, your uncanny ability to withstand arctic temperatures, and your unparalleled canine know-how. You are indeed the standard against which all others are measured, and nobody else even comes close. Congratulations.

Finally someone who gets it! LOL

I accept your congrats. It is hard to find people smart enough to understand.

:roll: Most guys come out and hunt for a week.

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:40 pm

Sarcasm alert!

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:07 pm

"I'm tired of people not realizing that I know and have and do hunt with the best." (Birddogz, on this forum, December 8, 2010, "Genetics of AA Dogs" thread)

You've ranted and raved for the past year about field trialers claiming their dogs are best, but I challenge you to provide a post where anyone proclaims their own superiority quite as absurdly as you did in that post. At least the trialers have the stones to put their dogs on the line, where as your claims are conveniently impossible to substantiate.

I suppose it's unwise to call you on it, because after all, you did "play high school football at a high level". Can't make this stuff up!

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:25 am

Ha-ha. Now I know why I come here. To be entertained!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:55 am

Does anyone doubt that trial dogs have not enriched the gene pool of every breed??? Please!!!! That would be about the stupidest contention I've ever heard. Does anyone really think that trialing dogs on "chickens" or planted birds is the equivalent of sharptail in November??? Course it isn't...but I'll bet a very high percentage of those dogs step it up on wild game too...because that's what the owners are working toward. Trial to train, sort the dogs out, get rid of the average/not so gifted...measure the dogs against the competition...and then go for the final test on the tough birds....that's all I'm saying.....now go thank all the guys that are willing to spend that kind of time and money to fail that often so we can all profit.

HOLY COW!!! It really isn't that complicated.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:55 pm

JKP wrote:Does anyone doubt that trial dogs have not enriched the gene pool of every breed??? Please!!!! That would be about the stupidest contention I've ever heard. Does anyone really think that trialing dogs on "chickens" or planted birds is the equivalent of sharptail in November??? Course it isn't...but I'll bet a very high percentage of those dogs step it up on wild game too...because that's what the owners are working toward. Trial to train, sort the dogs out, get rid of the average/not so gifted...measure the dogs against the competition...and then go for the final test on the tough birds....that's all I'm saying.....now go thank all the guys that are willing to spend that kind of time and money to fail that often so we can all profit.

HOLY COW!!! It really isn't that complicated.

I won't argue with you a bit but will tell you I look lot of places besides a dog that has been trialed when looking for a sire or female that I want a pup out of or for that matter as mate to breed with my dogs. Titles are nice when you haven't had a chance to see a dog but my first place to go is to dogs i Have seen hunt or hunted over. They do a lot for our gene pool also. If we all bred to the field trial winners we would lose a large percentage of our gene pool and we would open up severe problems for the breed.

Ezzy

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:55 pm

:roll: Anyone who makes a breeding decision, and considers it to be an important one (as most do), and does not go to see the chosen stock perform in the desired venue - are just plain nuts

. Title are nice, and I am trying to put them on my dog - but they do lie. They lie like the government.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:24 pm

What holds me back from participating?

The few walking trials I've been to have been "unfriendly" to newbies. Nobody offers to help you out in understanding what's going on. You don't know who to talk to, who to ask questions of.... etc. To combat this, I'd suggest that IF you really wanted newbies to attend and become hooked on FT's then you'd have someone on your trial committee that worked exclusively in recruiting newbies - showing them what happens, offering them a chance to get on a horse and get out there to see what's going on, assigning a mentor to them would be a good start. Just my opinion, but if someone physically invited me to attend and then shepherded me around a little bit (I know folks are busy) then I might just start to enjoy it. However, my dogs are closer working, so I'm not sure how well they'd do. It's not so much a fear of failure, everyone fails at something, but more an ignorance of how the game is played and a healthy desire not to look like a fool because you didn't understand something or other.

I'm fairly outgoing and can ask questions, but I know some newbies out there wouldn't even feel comfortable asking questions or trying to find a horse to ride for a brace or anything like that. I bet you could get them involved more if you had a designated person that would work with them a little bit. Just my two cents.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:26 pm

I won't argue with you a bit but will tell you I look lot of places besides a dog that has been trialed when looking for a sire or female that I want a pup out of or for that matter as mate to breed with my dogs. Titles are nice when you haven't had a chance to see a dog but my first place to go is to dogs i Have seen hunt or hunted over. They do a lot for our gene pool also. If we all bred to the field trial winners we would lose a large percentage of our gene pool and we would open up severe problems for the breed.

I can't disagree with you...but they are the spice in the kitchen...like a little garlic...makes everything a little tastier....or salt in the soup...always nice to have dogs that can juice the motor a little when you need it...like putting headers and an exhaust on my old 442....just a little more horsepower....

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:13 pm

I agree I enjoy watching the dogs that move on out but I will tell you that I have never sold a pup to a hunter that wanted any field trial breeding and some wouldn't buy if it was there. The number one complaint of most is the dogs range too big even without that type of breeding. Just the way it is for our type of hunting here in the limited areas we hunt.

Ezzy

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:38 pm

in the limited areas we hunt.

Say it ain't so!!! When I roll the Chicago state on the way to ND, looks pretty flat and open...sorry to hear that. Everyone should get the dog they need...and don't no one tell us what that is...and we'll all be fine.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:56 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I agree I enjoy watching the dogs that move on out but I will tell you that I have never sold a pup to a hunter that wanted any field trial breeding and some wouldn't buy if it was there. The number one complaint of most is the dogs range too big even without that type of breeding. Just the way it is for our type of hunting here in the limited areas we hunt.

Ezzy

Ezzy--- 2/3 the dogs in your 2 signature pedigrees are FIELD TRIAL dogs. The first pedigree is real strong on Bean's Blaze and Kansas Kid. The 2nd pedigree is strong in Bean's Blaze And Trade Mark. Those are NOT close ranging bird dogs. Just goes to show you can get very good foot handled hunting dogs out of field trial lines.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:31 am

I have never question that but many do and I will admit mine range a lot further than most people like. It's not unusual to see them working out at 500 yds when they aren't finding anything closer. Problem is you seldom can see that far so they don't get out much in the heavy cover till it starts to break down.

Ezzy

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:55 am

I think the key with any dog is the "connection"....some dogs can be out there 500 yds or more and still show they're connected. Years back, went hunting with a very nice GSP trial dog that was always 3-600 yds to the front. I questioned the owner if the dog even knew we were there---didn't seem to take notice of us. Owner said lets sit down in the CRP right here and I'll bet you lunch that dog is here looking for us within 5 minutes....I ended up buying lunch!!! I think we all can tell when a dog is hunting for us and is keeping an eye on where we are....the good ones are just a bit dependent on us...need to know where we are. The ones that care less would not be my style of dog. But, I assume we're talking about the best here...that's what folks are looking for ... right???

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:03 am

RoostersMom wrote:What holds me back from participating?

The few walking trials I've been to have been "unfriendly" to newbies. Nobody offers to help you out in understanding what's going on. You don't know who to talk to, who to ask questions of.... etc. To combat this, I'd suggest that IF you really wanted newbies to attend and become hooked on FT's then you'd have someone on your trial committee that worked exclusively in recruiting newbies - showing them what happens, offering them a chance to get on a horse and get out there to see what's going on, assigning a mentor to them would be a good start. Just my opinion, but if someone physically invited me to attend and then shepherded me around a little bit (I know folks are busy) then I might just start to enjoy it. However, my dogs are closer working, so I'm not sure how well they'd do. It's not so much a fear of failure, everyone fails at something, but more an ignorance of how the game is played and a healthy desire not to look like a fool because you didn't understand something or other.

I'm fairly outgoing and can ask questions, but I know some newbies out there wouldn't even feel comfortable asking questions or trying to find a horse to ride for a brace or anything like that. I bet you could get them involved more if you had a designated person that would work with them a little bit. Just my two cents.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Come to the Ringneck trial in March and look me up. Let's see if we can help. I've helped alot of people learn a game that's just fun. Win or loose.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:25 am

Rooster's Mom. Which trials are you going to in Missouri? I know some fine folks out there that put on good trials. I almost judged one for a guy out there this past fall. I guarantee you if I am there with my horses and you want to learn - I will help you in any way that I can. You can ride my horse, I will explain what is going on and try to answer any questions that you have. I do this as much as I possibly can at every trial I go to. Why? It makes sense to try and educate people about our sport so they can decide for themselves if they want to proceed or not.

More often than not I see people (at least here in Ohio and PA) that are willing to help a newbie out than shun them.

Also, if you stand around with a blank look on your face and when asked "Can I help with you something?" - don't lie and say "No." Say, hello my name is John and I am new to all of this - do you have a few minutes to answer some questions?

Most people can talk and get horses tacked or talk and walk. Well, most........

The Vizsla Gun Dog Championships will be held near Memphis in late March. I and many others who would be happy to answer questions and loan you a horse will be there. Come meet some nice people, see some good dogs and have a ball!

Justin

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:04 am

Roosters Mom-

Come on over here on the 19th-20th! There are plenty of good folks here that would love to help get you started! I cant guarantee you a horse but you sure can learn alot by walking braces to, riding the dog wagon, or even staying at camp to talk to the old codgers that dont ride anymore. The Kansas Field Trial Clubs Association and all its members are thoroughly committed to "recruiting" and is a great place to find a helping hand. Feel free to call anytime!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:22 am

RoostersMom wrote:What holds me back from participating?

The few walking trials I've been to have been "unfriendly" to newbies. Nobody offers to help you out in understanding what's going on. You don't know who to talk to, who to ask questions of.... etc. To combat this, I'd suggest that IF you really wanted newbies to attend and become hooked on FT's then you'd have someone on your trial committee that worked exclusively in recruiting newbies - showing them what happens, offering them a chance to get on a horse and get out there to see what's going on, assigning a mentor to them would be a good start. Just my opinion, but if someone physically invited me to attend and then shepherded me around a little bit (I know folks are busy) then I might just start to enjoy it. However, my dogs are closer working, so I'm not sure how well they'd do. It's not so much a fear of failure, everyone fails at something, but more an ignorance of how the game is played and a healthy desire not to look like a fool because you didn't understand something or other.

I'm fairly outgoing and can ask questions, but I know some newbies out there wouldn't even feel comfortable asking questions or trying to find a horse to ride for a brace or anything like that. I bet you could get them involved more if you had a designated person that would work with them a little bit. Just my two cents.

What I can tell you is it's luck of the draw if you happen upon someone who has time and is willing to help. Several years ago (probably 99 or 00) the first time I went to the GSP nationals in KS, my father and I just decided to drive up and check it out. We didn't know anyone and had never really been to many trials. We just wanted to go see! We show up park and started walking around looking at rigs and dogs and horses. There were lots of busy folks!

Mack Mabe walked up introduced himself and asked who we were if we were running dogs or not, he obviously knew better or he probably would have known us. Mack talk to us for a long time helped us find a wrangler with extra horses and off we went to ride some braces. Maybe we were lucky, maybe gsp folks are friendlier? Anyway we had a good time and a positive experience.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:53 am

GSP folks are friendlier...? Why you &^^$$^*

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:14 am

Chukar12 wrote:GSP folks are friendlier...? Why you &^^$$^*

Well there are some very big exceptions to that!

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:16 am

i know i have talked to topher a couple of times and he has tryied a couple of times to get me to come and try the trials
out the reason i have been on the fence about it here is a couple reasons

the rules i understand them up to a point but not fully
losing i am a sore loser i hate losing
pissing people off with my inexperience
doing the wrong thing
my dog messing up someone else dog
cost mainly cost of gas having a truck that gets 10 mpg kinda sucks
worried about not being able to find the trial and if i show up late and they already ran the brace that probably means that i have wasted however much gas for nothing
not knowing what all i need to bring to a trial and not knowing what i am suppose to do at the trial. do i check in? do i sit in my truck until its my turn? do they call my name or do i need a number? what to do with my dog can i take her out of the box or does she have to stay in the box?
what do i have to do to watch the other braces? i dont have a horse so i dout i will be able to see anything walking and i dont wanna ask someone for a horse to use because what if something happened to the horse i dont have the money for a vet bill for a horse

those are the main things that keeps me on the fence. but i said screw it and entered my dog in the gd stake i figured i could use a free dog house

so topher go ahead and put my name on that and il pick it up on the 21st

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:26 am

RoostersMom wrote:What holds me back from participating?

The few walking trials I've been to have been "unfriendly" to newbies. Nobody offers to help you out in understanding what's going on. You don't know who to talk to, who to ask questions of.... etc. To combat this, I'd suggest that IF you really wanted newbies to attend and become hooked on FT's then you'd have someone on your trial committee that worked exclusively in recruiting newbies - showing them what happens, offering them a chance to get on a horse and get out there to see what's going on, assigning a mentor to them would be a good start. Just my opinion, but if someone physically invited me to attend and then shepherded me around a little bit (I know folks are busy) then I might just start to enjoy it. However, my dogs are closer working, so I'm not sure how well they'd do. It's not so much a fear of failure, everyone fails at something, but more an ignorance of how the game is played and a healthy desire not to look like a fool because you didn't understand something or other.

I'm fairly outgoing and can ask questions, but I know some newbies out there wouldn't even feel comfortable asking questions or trying to find a horse to ride for a brace or anything like that. I bet you could get them involved more if you had a designated person that would work with them a little bit. Just my two cents.

thats a good idea with having someone kinda show them around and tell them whats happening and explain any questions they have.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:34 am

SJ-
I would give it to ya on the 21st, but your still entered to run on the 20th.....

You can come back on monday if you really want!

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:36 am

In these trials (puppy, derby, gundog), are the dogs required to be broke steady to wing, shot, fall, and then retreive if required?

Coveyrise64

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:37 am

the 20th works too

sjkennels · Post by **sjkennels** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:44 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:In these trials (puppy, derby, gundog), are the dogs required to be broke steady to wing, shot, fall, and then retreive if required?

Coveyrise64

Puppy
Puppies should have and display the natural abilities that can be developed to make a good hunting or field trial dog. These abilities would include but not be limited to hunting instinct, pointing instinct, intelligence, good nose, good eyesight and hearing, good disposition, courage, good confirmation, style and appearance.

Puppies will be run on a short back course to simulate hunting conditions so the judges have a chance to evaluate their running style, boldness and range. They will then be brought into a “bird field” which is a designated area in which pen-raised quail have been planted. The puppies will be allotted a predetermined amount of time in the bird field to find and (hopefully) point birds.

Puppies are not necessarily expected to back (honor) a brace mate that is pointing rigidly but should be encouraged to do so if they are so inclined. Puppies should be discouraged by their handlers from interfering with their brace mates bird work. When a puppy has contact with a quail or other game bird the handler should fire a blank shell from a manufactured solid barrel blank gun to simulate hunting conditions and demonstrate to the judges that the puppy is not gun shy.

Gun dog
Gun dogs are generally considered to be a finished hunting dog. As such they should hunt the available cover using wind to their advantage being ever mindful that their purpose is to provide the hunter the opportunity to put game in the bag. Gun dogs should be well mannered around game. When birds are found they should point staunchly until the bird is flushed by the handler.

A gun dog should back (honor) a brace mate that is pointing rigidly until the brace mates handler has flushed its bird. When a gun dog has pointed a quail or other game bird the handler should fire a blank shell from a manufactured solid barrel blank gun when they flush the bird to simulate hunting conditions and demonstrate to the judges that the dog is not gun shy.

The gun dog stake is unique to walking trials and several of the clubs that host trials in Kansas include it in their programs as a method of introducing new contestants to the sport.

Derby
Derbies should display all of the attributes listed for puppies. In addition to those natural qualities they should show the benefits of having received some formal training and being hunted through their first season. Generally speaking derbies will be more advanced than puppies in regard to hunting ability, boldness, range and bird handling abilities.

Derbies should be expected to back (honor) a brace mate that is pointing rigidly but should not be penalized for failing to back provided that they do not interfere with the brace mates bird work. Derbies that repeatedly interfere with a brace mates bird work by failing to back will be disqualified. When a derby has pointed a quail or other game bird the handler should fire a blank shell from a manufactured solid barrel blank gun when the bird is flown to simulate hunting conditions and demonstrate to the judges that the derby is not gun shy.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:47 am

The puppy, Gun Dog, and derby are ALL unbroke stakes. The only stake that is a broke dog stake is the Sh dog. That seems to be a big barrier to most of the folks that I have spoke to. They think their dogs have to be broke broke broke to run in a trial.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:51 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:In these trials (puppy, derby, gundog), are the dogs required to be broke steady to wing, shot, fall, and then retreive if required?

Coveyrise64

The ones around here USCSDA and AF they are not. Puppy I am not sure how much weight they even put on pointing, Gundog and Derby they are supposed to be judged up until the flush. Some of them are broke, some aren't.

gspguy · Post by **gspguy** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:55 am

Money and time. It takes a large investment in both to have a serviceable trial dog. Then results are not guaranteed. In some cases you need to earn your stripes too.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:00 am

gspguy wrote:Money and time. It takes a large investment in both to have a serviceable trial dog. Then results are not guaranteed. In some cases you need to earn your stripes too.

It also takes a large investment in a serviceable hunting dog. Then too, the results are not guaranteed.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:01 am

Terry in AKC trials puppy & derbies are not required to be broke & most puppy stakes don't have birds on course.Derbies do need to atleast flash point but not steady.Derbies have to have bird contact to place.All other stakes are BROKE DOG stakes.Some stakes are retreiving & some aren't & most of the retrieving stakes are handled by call backs.It all sounds confushing but even I can understand it.

People are very nice of course just like anything there are -- Holes.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:25 am

topher40 wrote:The puppy, Gun Dog, and derby are ALL unbroke stakes. The only stake that is a broke dog stake is the Sh dog. That seems to be a big barrier to most of the folks that I have spoke to. They think their dogs have to be broke broke broke to run in a trial.

So, in your venue, what is the difference between GD and SD stakes?

Coveyrise64

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:29 am

range, and a Shdog is dead broke.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:39 am

topher40 wrote:range, and a Shdog is dead broke.

Other than range, what is required of a Gun Dog? Not sure I understand why they'd have a catergory between Derby and Shooting Dog.

Coveyrise64

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:42 am

I am not sure about his but the ones held hear the gun dog stakes are more of fun trials, judgement ceases at flush and is open to most everyone.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:44 am

coveyrise,

A derby doesn't have to be broke steady to wing and shot. A shooting dog does. In AF, a gundog stake, is like a hunting dog stake. Dog doesn't range as big and judgement is over after flush of birds.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:01 pm

sjkennels wrote:
Derby
Derbies should display all of the attributes listed for puppies. In addition to those natural qualities they should show the benefits of having received some formal training and being hunted through their first season. Generally speaking derbies will be more advanced than puppies in regard to hunting ability, boldness, range and bird handling abilities.

Derbies should be expected to back (honor) a brace mate that is pointing rigidly but should not be penalized for failing to back provided that they do not interfere with the brace mates bird work. Derbies that repeatedly interfere with a brace mates bird work by failing to back will be disqualified. When a derby has pointed a quail or other game bird the handler should fire a blank shell from a manufactured solid barrel blank gun when the bird is flown to simulate hunting conditions and demonstrate to the judges that the derby is not gun shy.

Not sure, but think those are AFTCA rules, but they don't seem quit right for that either, the AKC rules:

1-B Derby Stakes. Derbies must show a keen
desire to hunt, be bold and independent, have a fast,
yet attractive, style of running, and demonstrate not
only intelligence in seeking objectives but also the
ability to find game. Derbies must establish point
but no additional credit shall be given for steadiness
to wing and shot. If the handler is within reasonable
gun range of a bird which has been flushed after a
point, a shot must be fired. A lack of opportunity for
firing over a Derby dog on point shall not constitute
reason for non-placement when it has had game contact
in acceptable Derby manner. Derbies must show
reasonable obedience to their handlers’ commands.
Each dog is to be judged on its actual performance
as indicating its future promise as a high class bird
dog for Gun Dog or All-Age stakes. Preference
should not be given to one potential over another.
Application is more important than range in a Derby.
At least 20 minutes and not more than 30 minutes
shall be allowed for each heat.
Championship points will be withheld if a dog has
not run for the required time.
All placed dogs must have established a point.

6-E In a Derby Stake, if the second dog is not on
point or backing, its handler may, without penalty,
hold or otherwise control the dog if there is any likelihood
that it would interfere with the dog on point.

Neil

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:12 pm

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, if you don’t know don’t answer. I don’t know what stakes you are referring to, but in both AKC and AF all gun dog, and all age stakes (AKC) have to be broke, in AF all shooting dogs and all age have to be broke. The confusion is that AKC has gun dogs and AF has shooting dogs, in my eyes they are the same, however the reality is that in AKC, small flaws are often forgiven, where in championships (AF) the performance pretty much has to be flawless. It is pretty much accepted that in a shooting dog championship the dog must perform at a much higher level, another words he better be putting the pedal to the metal. Also gun dog stakes(except for classics) are 30 min. and championships are a minimum of one hour.

Some smaller trials will often hold a hunting dog stake, which is not recognized by anyone and judgment stops with the flush.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:13 pm

All the above is true both walking and horseback!

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:22 pm

A gun dog or Amateur Shooting Dog stake, as Linda Hunt wants them listed and named now, the judgment ceases at flush. These stakes are sanctioned and RECOGNIZED by the AF and win certificates ARE given for placements.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:28 pm

I am sorry Topher, but you are mistaken. Dogs have to be broke for both open and amateur shooting dog.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:35 pm

Actually I am not, although I cant argue beliefs. I am hosting a trial Feb 19th and 20th that has an Amateur Shooting dog stake. These are unbroke stakes that are provided mostly for "hunters" to participate in. This year Linda Hunt has asked that these stakes be referred to as an Amateur Shooting Dog stake rather than a Gun Dog stake as it had been referred to for years. This allows new folks to also get a win certificate.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
topher40 wrote:range, and a Shdog is dead broke.
Other than range, what is required of a Gun Dog? Not sure I understand why they'd have a catergory between Derby and Shooting Dog.

Coveyrise64

1. To try to get new people involved. The standards aren't as strict thus your dog isn't necessarily picked up for making a mistake.
2. To give people with a "good huntin' dog" something to compete in with their dog.
3. To get a dog experience.
4. It's fun.

Chris is right though, it IS recognized, and I have the win certificates to prove it.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:56 pm

Chris,

Maybe it is the arcane rules that hold people back.

If AFTCA is giving win certificates for unbroke dogs, I wonder if American Field knows?

Neil

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:07 pm

The American Field is well aware they are giving win certificates to unbroke dogs. Derbies have always received win certificates and they are unbroke dogs.