Dog not pointing running right to bird

[Droptine180]

I recently accuired a brittany that is now 15 months old. He is of good breeding. I have been working with him in the field with basic handling skills for a few months. I have gotten him into wild bird sent be have not seen him point. I started this week planting pigeons in a launcher and he runs right up on the launcher before he will stop on point. I am able to pop the bird and fire a blank gun shot and he wants to chase the bird and watch it fly. Any suggestions?

[kninebirddog]

How I work that is I use the Rick Smith Method and teach points of contact via the whoa post where a cue at the flank means to come to a stop and stand still

once you have the dog where it knows this point of contact in yard work and is willingly stopping just on the cue no words at this point then I go into the field and begin with the launching of birds and allowing the dog to commit to the chase and then like coming to a stop sign apply the cue to come to a stop
this will allow the dog to learn and get the chase out with out souring the dog and causing other issues

then I will work on the point where when the dog hits scent when he begins a beeline towards the launcher launch the bird and allow the dog to commit to the chase and cue to stop

eventually the dog will begin to stop on their won then you just work the new routine to become habit

PS when I say come to a stop it is bring the dog to a nice stop like coming to a stop sign and you apply the brakes versus trying to go to fast and slamming in the brakes...
it takes a little time and patience but I have gotten quite a few dogs that all they wanted to do was rip and run when they hit scent of a bird to become dogs that would point their birds with style they have and not be worried about getting over corrected because they were being forced to point before they were ready

[Cajun Casey]

Preload the launchers, don't let the dog see you carry them out and do something about your feet, like plastic bags. Sounds like your dog is tracking.

[Droptine180]

Thanks for the advice. This is the first week I have worked with my dog with live birds. About every other day for a total of three sessions. I can see him getting more excited with each session and he is not afraid of the launcher, birds or the blank gun. I can see him beginning to work the area using his nose and trying to find birds even if I did not have one planted. I will go back to working on getting him completely whoa broke before working him on birds again and follow your advice on chasing and pointing.

I don't let him see me plant the birds but cover is not that good right now and I haven't been wearing rubber boots. I will keep and eye on him when I get back to working on live birds with him to see if he is tracking me. At least during the training sessions

[gonehuntin']

Never work him into the wind on launchers, always cross wind. When he hits the scent cone suddenly like that he will be surprised and may instantly point. Never let him track you. Some dogs have more "point" than others. Some would spend their entire lives chasing if you don't stop them.

[slistoe]

I doubt this dog is tracking to the birds, but if it is changing your footwear will do nothing to stop it. You could get away with having someone else plant the birds and it would work for awhile. What I found most effective for a dog tracking me to the birds was to plant them in such a way that the dog will not find them if it followed my foot trail. It takes a dog a long time to "unlearn" that it can find birds that way and that it needs to move into a downwind of cover search pattern.
Gonehuntin and Knine have given very good advice IMO.

[kninebirddog]

there is no way to fool a smart dog that really knows how to use it's nose.

[Droptine180]

Thanks everyone, I just began working my dog on the launcher this week. I have only had him for 3 months. 1) I will circle around the bird field that I plant birds in and I will definately be able to tell if he is tracking when I run him through and area that I haven't walked in. 2) If I can eliminate that he is tracking then I have a good idea that he is just catching the sent and chasing. At this point I can see he needs whoa broke before I proceed with the bird work. Otherwise I am just working on creating bad habits.

[Prairie Hunter]

Everyone has their own methods and training techniques, but this is what I would do.

Let the pup drag a check cord. Work it into the bird cross-wind. As soon as he smells the bird, his head will crank around that way. Launch the bird immediately. Do not wait for him to point. Catch, or stand on, the check cord, and do not allow him to chase. You want him to think he caused the bird to flush, and he should never get a reward (and chasing is a reward) for bumping a bird. Take him away, and work him into the next launcher. After a few times, you will see him trying to stop on his own when he get a whiff of the bird. Once you see that, you can let him point, but as soon as he moves a foot, you must launch the bird immediately, and do not allow him to chase. You will notice that each time the pup will tend to hold point longer and longer. The idea is to make the pup believe it is his movement that makes the bird get away. You can use this method to start getting him staunch on point.

Once the pup will stand long enough for you or a helper to move in front of him without breaking, launch the bird and shoot it, and let him go get it. Just be sure the shooter has a freshly killed bird in his vest. In case he misses the launched bird, he can throw the dead bird in the same direction and fire a shot. That way the pup gets a reward for standing. If he breaks before you can flush, launch the bird, let it fly away, restrain him with the check cord, and don’t let him chase. Take him away, and set him up again. After a few sessions, he should get the idea that the only way for him to get a bird is if someone shoots it for him. This will make everything black and white for him. If he stands, he gets a bird. If he moves, he gets nothing. Since the bird is what he wants, he will do what’s in his best interest.

[4dabirds]

Everyone has their own methods and training techniques, but this is what I would do.

Let the pup drag a check cord. Work it into the bird cross-wind. As soon as he smells the bird, his head will crank around that way. Launch the bird immediately. Do not wait for him to point. Catch, or stand on, the check cord, and do not allow him to chase. You want him to think he caused the bird to flush, and he should never get a reward (and chasing is a reward) for bumping a bird. Take him away, and work him into the next launcher. After a few times, you will see him trying to stop on his own when he get a whiff of the bird. Once you see that, you can let him point, but as soon as he moves a foot, you must launch the bird immediately, and do not allow him to chase. You will notice that each time the pup will tend to hold point longer and longer. The idea is to make the pup believe it is his movement that makes the bird get away. You can use this method to start getting him staunch on point.

Once the pup will stand long enough for you or a helper to move in front of him without breaking, launch the bird and shoot it, and let him go get it. Just be sure the shooter has a freshly killed bird in his vest. In case he misses the launched bird, he can throw the dead bird in the same direction and fire a shot. That way the pup gets a reward for standing. If he breaks before you can flush, launch the bird, let it fly away, restrain him with the check cord, and don’t let him chase. Take him away, and set him up again. After a few sessions, he should get the idea that the only way for him to get a bird is if someone shoots it for him. This will make everything black and white for him. If he stands, he gets a bird. If he moves, he gets nothing. Since the bird is what he wants, he will do what’s in his best interest.

I agree with this idea except for one thing it relies on the idea that eventually the dog will stop. What if the dog does not stop. What If seeing the bird fly only antagonizes the dog to chase more. The piece of the puzzle you are missing is you need a mechanism that guarantees the out come. You first need to teach the dog whoa. If the dog understands whoa you can do this drill with out any scent first. Command the dog whoa he stops you launch a bird . After enough repetitions the dog will learn when he whoas he gets to see a bird. The association is whoa = birds. Don't worry seeing the bird is enough reward the dog does not need to catch birds for reward. Once the dog gets it, do the same cross wind. Command whoa when dog first hits scent. association scent = birds. Bird is reward. Never use bird in launcher as scent bird. The launcher carries your scent and it hides the birds scent. Plant a scent bird 10 yards in front of launcher locked wing well hidden. If you tether the birds to the launcher you can use them over and over again will save $. Make sure you move setup each time. If the birds are tethered you can use a blank gun the bird is never missed. After you are done just walk off with the dog or pick the dog up.

[gonehuntin']

I agree with this idea except for one thing it relies on the idea that eventually the dog will stop. What if the dog does not stop. What If seeing the bird fly only antagonizes the dog to chase more. The piece of the puzzle you are missing is you need a mechanism that guarantees the out come. You first need to teach the dog whoa. If the dog understands whoa you can do this drill with out any scent first. Command the dog whoa he stops you launch a bird . After enough repetitions the dog will learn when he whoas he gets to see a bird. The association is whoa = birds. Don't worry seeing the bird is enough reward the dog does not need to catch birds for reward. Once the dog gets it, do the same cross wind. Command whoa when dog first hits scent. association scent = birds. Bird is reward. Never use bird in launcher as scent bird. The launcher carries your scent and it hides the birds scent. Plant a scent bird 10 yards in front of launcher locked wing well hidden. If you tether the birds to the launcher you can use them over and over again will save $. Make sure you move setup each time. If the birds are tethered you can use a blank gun the bird is never missed. After you are done just walk off with the dog or pick the dog up.

I would never use a method like this. I don't want the dog EVER to rely on a verbal whoa to stop at first contact for a bird. I am a strong advocate of K9's method, where a silent cc applies the pressure; the dog applies his own pressure to himself if he doesn't stop for the bird.

Later when the dog is being steadied, whoa is used as an obedience command.

[slistoe]

I would never use a method like this. I don't want the dog EVER to rely on a verbal whoa to stop at first contact for a bird. I am a strong advocate of K9's method, where a silent cc applies the pressure; the dog applies his own pressure to himself if he doesn't stop for the bird.

Later when the dog is being steadied, whoa is used as an obedience command.

X2

[birddogger]

I would never use a method like this. I don't want the dog EVER to rely on a verbal whoa to stop at first contact for a bird. I am a strong advocate of K9's method, where a silent cc applies the pressure; the dog applies his own pressure to himself if he doesn't stop for the bird.

Later when the dog is being steadied, whoa is used as an obedience command.

X2

x3. I never whoa a dog up to a point.

Charlie

[brad27]

You first need to teach the dog whoa. If the dog understands whoa you can do this drill with out any scent first. Command the dog whoa he stops you launch a bird . After enough repetitions the dog will learn when he whoas he gets to see a bird. The association is whoa = birds.

whoa has nothing to do with birds. using this method you could make a german sheperd point and there would be no need for a pointing breed.

P.S. i just got my GSP to scent point using the method pairie hunter described. i didn't have to say a work to her either. only took about 10 pigeons spread out over a weeks time.

[4dabirds]

On this site we are not trying to help you with your dog we are trying to help everyone with every dog. Not every dog will make the association you expect it to make in every situation. In that method it is a leap of faith that the dog will make the proper association. While I believe that many dogs will not every dog will. The harm here is if the dog does not make the association you have given the dog many repetitions of the wrong thing or will have to put pressure on the dog in the presence of a bird. With my way there is no risk of unwanted association and no need for pressure "correction". A dog with a good whoa command is always in control of the handler and can be used as a mechanism to , facilitate many different aspects of training this being one of them .

[gonehuntin']

The harm here is if the dog does not make the association you have given the dog many repetitions of the wrong thing or will have to put pressure on the dog in the presence of a bird. With my way there is no risk of unwanted association and no need for pressure "correction". A dog with a good whoa command is always in control of the handler and can be used as a mechanism to , facilitate many different aspects of training this being one of them .

YOU don't put pressure on the dog, the dog does and all is done silently.

By using the work "whoa" around birds, whoa becomes a crutch and it takes the dog far longer to associate birds with stopping.

The cc used correctly with electronic traps is the fastest and safest way to steady a dog around birds. Once he is stopping reliably, the electronic traps are used alone. If the dog moves a muscle, and that includes a step or flagging, the bird is flown and is gone.

[4dabirds]

I would never use a method like this. I don't want the dog EVER to rely on a verbal whoa to stop at first contact for a bird. I am a strong advocate of K9's method, where a silent cc applies the pressure; the dog applies his own pressure to himself if he doesn't stop for the bird.

Later when the dog is being steadied, whoa is used as an obedience command.

X2

"A silent check-cord applies the pressure" is a negative response in the presence of a bird . You are compelling the dog to stop. The amount of pressure is commensurate with the drive of the dog. The association is not guaranteed to be what you want. If the dogs drive is such that he will not stop will you put enough pressure on the dog to make him blink birds.When you whoa the dog he is rewarded with the sight of the bird as a function of whoa. It is all positive , the dog stops because the dog wants to stop not because he was compelled to stop. In the original post the dog was roading in, chasing , and not pointing birds. So far the let the dog work it out method is just fine for the dog, he's doing what he wants. The trick is to get the dog to do what you want and make him think he's doing what he wants. When a dog learns to associate the word with the reward he is more likely to perform consistently. after a number of consistent repetitions the dog will associate the scent with whoa . Once the dog is associating the scent he will anticipate the command when he hits scent and stop on his own.

[slistoe]

4dabirds I suppose that some dogs have zero inkling to point and would require a method such as you describe. For dogs with some degree of point in them what you propose is counter productive to the end goal - the dog POINTING.

[Maurice]

I would never use a method like this. I don't want the dog EVER to rely on a verbal whoa to stop at first contact for a bird. I am a strong advocate of K9's method, where a silent cc applies the pressure; the dog applies his own pressure to himself if he doesn't stop for the bird.

Later when the dog is being steadied, whoa is used as an obedience command.

I agree with that. Whoa has nothing to do with the actual point. Some dogs have to run at a lot of birds before they actually start to point them. It should be between the dog and bird at 1st. Once you start getting a natural point then you can work and polish it.

Mo

[ezzy333]

Seems to me that what I am hearing is that the method most of us use is designed to bring out the dogs natural ability while the method 4dabirds is advocating is what he has learned from George Hickox and is designed to teach a dog without any natural ability to point. It almost remeinds me of FF training where the dog being subserviant to the trainer is taught to do whatever the trainers asks instead of being trained to use its own natural abilities.

I am still of the school that says we are teaching our dogs how to figure out their problems instead of teaching a dog to be strictly dependant on us.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Seems to me that what I am hearing is that the method most of us use is designed to bring out the dogs natural ability while the method 4dabirds is advocating is what he has learned from George Hickox and is designed to teach a dog without any natural ability to point. It almost remeinds me of FF training where the dog being subserviant to the trainer is taught to do whatever the trainers asks instead of being trained to use its own natural abilities.

I am still of the school that says we are teaching our dogs how to figure out their problems instead of teaching a dog to be strictly dependant on us.

Ezzy

I will agree with you but the FF statement glosses over the FF process. FF to a retriever is like taking a dog with lots of natural point and teaching it manners on birds. Just as the FF process can be used on a dog with no retrieve, so can the manners process be used on a dog with no point, but the real purpose of each is to enhance and polish the dog with natural ability.

[gonehuntin']

Seems to me that what I am hearing is that the method most of us use is designed to bring out the dogs natural ability while the method 4dabirds is advocating is what he has learned from George Hickox and is designed to teach a dog without any natural ability to point.
Ezzy

Many times someone new to the game and inexperienced goes to a seminar, sees and hears a single point of view, and takes that view as gospel. Big mistake. I doubt that George uses whoa around if he has a dog with natural ability.

[gonehuntin']

"A silent check-cord applies the pressure" is a negative response in the presence of a bird . You are compelling the dog to stop. The amount of pressure is commensurate with the drive of the dog.

You are compelling the dog to do nothing, the dog is exerting pressure that he is creating on himself. You're a silent partner.

The association is not guaranteed to be what you want. If the dogs drive is such that he will not stop will you put enough pressure on the dog to make him blink birds.

You are silent. You are not touching the dog. Any pressure put on is put on by him. He will NOT blink birds.

When you whoa the dog he is rewarded with the sight of the bird as a function of whoa. It is all positive , the dog stops because the dog wants to stop not because he was compelled to stop.

It is most certainly NOT positive. The dog stops because he has been FORCED to stop on the command "whoa". In NO way is that dog stopping because he WANTS to stop. YOU have compelled and commanded him to stop.

In the original post the dog was roading in, chasing , and not pointing birds. So far the let the dog work it out method is just fine for the dog, he's doing what he wants. The trick is to get the dog to do what you want and make him think he's doing what he wants. When a dog learns to associate the word with the reward he is more likely to perform consistently. after a number of consistent repetitions the dog will associate the scent with whoa . Once the dog is associating the scent he will anticipate the command when he hits scent and stop on his own.

That is an incorrect assumption. Some dogs will NEVER stop and point a bird unless vocally whoa'd. What are you going to do when the dog is 300 yards out, not in sight and finds a bird? I have seen dogs that would NEVER reliably point a wild bird. Though the dogs had a ton of drive to FIND the birds, they simply didn't have the pointing instinct to hold a point on a bird. No amount of pressure could make them. They live and die better flushing than pointing dogs.

You seem very, very new to this and not well versed in differing methods, though you certainly seem to have studied George. Open you're mind, read some books, watch some cd's and broaden your horizon. Mo's book would be a good place to start.

[Prairie Hunter]

Everyone has their own methods and training techniques, but this is what I would do.

Let the pup drag a check cord. Work it into the bird cross-wind. As soon as he smells the bird, his head will crank around that way. Launch the bird immediately. Do not wait for him to point. Catch, or stand on, the check cord, and do not allow him to chase. You want him to think he caused the bird to flush, and he should never get a reward (and chasing is a reward) for bumping a bird. Take him away, and work him into the next launcher. After a few times, you will see him trying to stop on his own when he get a whiff of the bird. Once you see that, you can let him point, but as soon as he moves a foot, you must launch the bird immediately, and do not allow him to chase. You will notice that each time the pup will tend to hold point longer and longer. The idea is to make the pup believe it is his movement that makes the bird get away. You can use this method to start getting him staunch on point.

Once the pup will stand long enough for you or a helper to move in front of him without breaking, launch the bird and shoot it, and let him go get it. Just be sure the shooter has a freshly killed bird in his vest. In case he misses the launched bird, he can throw the dead bird in the same direction and fire a shot. That way the pup gets a reward for standing. If he breaks before you can flush, launch the bird, let it fly away, restrain him with the check cord, and don’t let him chase. Take him away, and set him up again. After a few sessions, he should get the idea that the only way for him to get a bird is if someone shoots it for him. This will make everything black and white for him. If he stands, he gets a bird. If he moves, he gets nothing. Since the bird is what he wants, he will do what’s in his best interest.

I agree with this idea except for one thing it relies on the idea that eventually the dog will stop. What if the dog does not stop. What If seeing the bird fly only antagonizes the dog to chase more. The piece of the puzzle you are missing is you need a mechanism that guarantees the out come. You first need to teach the dog whoa. If the dog understands whoa you can do this drill with out any scent first. Command the dog whoa he stops you launch a bird . After enough repetitions the dog will learn when he whoas he gets to see a bird. The association is whoa = birds. Don't worry seeing the bird is enough reward the dog does not need to catch birds for reward. Once the dog gets it, do the same cross wind. Command whoa when dog first hits scent. association scent = birds. Bird is reward. Never use bird in launcher as scent bird. The launcher carries your scent and it hides the birds scent. Plant a scent bird 10 yards in front of launcher locked wing well hidden. If you tether the birds to the launcher you can use them over and over again will save $. Make sure you move setup each time. If the birds are tethered you can use a blank gun the bird is never missed. After you are done just walk off with the dog or pick the dog up.

If the dog has any natural point in it, it will stop. The stronger the pointing instinct, the quicker the dog will decide to stop. You must remember that pointing is only the dog pausing as it stalks its prey. It’s no different than when you see a cat pause and remain motionless as it stalks a bird or mouse. Through selective breeding, that pause has become innate and exaggerated. Through training and encouragement, we get them to hold the point indefinitely. Still, the dog’s main desire is to get the bird. That is the whole reason dogs rush in without pointing, or break point and rush in. It wants the bird! Once the pup realizes rushing in doesn’t work, and the bird flies away before it gets close enough to catch it, what do you think the pup is going to do? It will try to stalk the bird to get a chance to catch it. And, what is its innate stalking method? That’s right . . . . pointing! That’s why any dog with any innate pointing instinct will stop and point using the method I described. And, the best part, I put zero pressure on the pup other than retraining it from chasing with the check cord. In fact, young pups will seldom chase, or not chase far anyway, so I don’t even use a check cord on them.

Once the pup stops and points, it quickly learns that the bird will stay as long as the dog doesn’t move, but as soon as it moves, the bird flushes and gets away. So, the dog will stand longer and longer trying to figure a way to get the bird without making it flush. When the pup stands long enough for me or my helper to walk in front and flush the bird, we shoot it for the pup, and it gets the ultimate reward, a bird. A few sessions of that, and the dog will make the comparison, stand on point and get a bird, or move and get nothing. Which one do you think it will choose? Now, you have a pup that is pretty much staunch on point. And, again, no pressure.

I never whoa a dog into a point, or whoa a dog to make it hold a point. When you do, the dog isn’t actually pointing, it’s obeying the whoa command. A dog must learn to stop, and hold point, on its own. I don’t want a dog relying on me to whoa it when it finds a bird. Besides, if my dog finds a bird when its 150 – 200+ yards out. How would I whoa it then?

I don’t get the logic behind whoaing the dog, and then launching the bird. The dog is standing like it’s supposed to, and yet the bird gets away. What’s the dog’s motivation to point or continue to stand on point? I guess I don’t see watching a bird fly away as much of a reward. If anything, I think it would frustrate and confuse a young dog. Getting a bird is the ultimate reward for doing its job.

In addition, in the time it takes to get a dog completely and reliably whoa broke, I can already have it staunch on point. I train this way with pups as young as 3 or 4 months old, and that’s much too young to apply the pressure needed to whoa break a dog.

[4dabirds]

don’t get the logic behind whoaing the dog, and then launching the bird. The dog is standing like it’s supposed to, and yet the bird gets away. What’s the dog’s motivation to point or continue to stand on point? I guess I don’t see watching a bird fly away as much of a reward. If anything, I think it would frustrate and confuse a young dog. Getting a bird is the ultimate reward for doing its job.

This is philosophically the main point of contention between the difference of opinion on this post.. I do not deny that the methods of other trainers on this post will work. The difference in my opinion is a matter of pressure reduces style and will cause a dog to be ppehensive during training. The entire basis of the method I am using relies on admitting a few facts. A dog is motivated to please itself. The dog never does anything that the dog perceives as not beneficial to the dog. When the dog perceives something as beneficial it will react in a way that is not always the intended response the trainer is looking for. The system I am using creates an illusion to the dog that the intended outcome the trainer wants is what is beneficial to the dog. The second important Fact is that dogs learn by association. Guaranteeing that the intended behavior is associated properly is what is important. With this system the whoa command is taught to the dog with all positive reinforcement. Not until the dog is 80% on the command is the e-collar introduced. When the dog is in the field with birds the whoa command needs to be 100%. When the dog is whoad in this exercise it is doing it for reward . It is not forced on the dog because the dog is motivated to please himself and it is benefitting the dog. The dog does not know that there is a bird present in the first step. Once the dog has made the association that whoa produces the bird he has made the proper association. A third Fact is that dogs will anticipate the next move you are going to make. When the dog is whoad in the second part of this exercise he is whoad on the scent of the bird. The dog learns through association that stopping on scent will produce a bird. Once the dog has had enough repetitions he will anticipate that you are going to say whoa when he hits scent and stop on his own. Now you took a dog that did not point because he was allowed to chase and taught him that the ends to his means is stopping on the scent. In this post the dog did not point at all. If you think that letting the dog come into his own point over time will work, then why cant the dog come into his own point over time after he learns to stop on scent? Furthermore if you have a dog that does not have style on point you still have a dog that can be stacked to create the style you want. In this post you are fixing a problem. You are not starting with a dog that is 4 months old.The dog was trained to not point now you have to train the dog to point. With this method the last thing the dog is is confused. The dog has been trained to stop on command , it is a command the dog knows. When the dog learns that the reward is the bird it will be more motivated to comply. If the dog is not allowed to retrieve until it is steady to wing and shot then the reward is the sight of the bird and is enough to motivate the dog. If you believe that dogs are moral beings and do things they want to do and need to be punished for indiscretions then you should not take this advice . My belief is that dogs are animals, they see things as either safe or dangerous , learn by association, and are motivated to please themselves.

[snips]

Genetics causes a dog to point. This is natural and in most cases is brought out or enhanced by the trainer or handler....This said, the natural point can also be taken out by the dogs handler...As we DO NOT want to intinionally do this, novices do this everyday. By overuse of pen birds, training scents, ect...I read it here everyday. I get dogs in that are trained not to point...The dog is no longer reacting to his genetics, he is doing what he is trained to do...Not point. The scent tells him his prey will not run or fly away and he does not have to hesitate in order to get it. The job of the handler/trainer is to re-establish the dogs natural point if he can....I feel it is many times harder to regain a dogs natural point if it is taught he does not have to....Knowing the dogs exact background can tell you a ton about why the dog is not pointing. Then it is the job of trainer/handler to get a dog pointing again..Good advice is given here to try to get the dogs natural point going. ..If all fails in getting the dog pointing, then he can be artifically taught to point on scent....This is a last resort.

[Prairie Hunter]

This is philosophically the main point of contention between the difference of opinion on this post.. I do not deny that the methods of other trainers on this post will work. The difference in my opinion is a matter of pressure reduces style and will cause a dog to be ppehensive during training. The entire basis of the method I am using relies on admitting a few facts. A dog is motivated to please itself. The dog never does anything that the dog perceives as not beneficial to the dog. When the dog perceives something as beneficial it will react in a way that is not always the intended response the trainer is looking for. The system I am using creates an illusion to the dog that the intended outcome the trainer wants is what is beneficial to the dog. The second important Fact is that dogs learn by association. Guaranteeing that the intended behavior is associated properly is what is important. With this system the whoa command is taught to the dog with all positive reinforcement. Not until the dog is 80% on the command is the e-collar introduced. When the dog is in the field with birds the whoa command needs to be 100%. When the dog is whoad in this exercise it is doing it for reward . It is not forced on the dog because the dog is motivated to please himself and it is benefitting the dog. The dog does not know that there is a bird present in the first step. Once the dog has made the association that whoa produces the bird he has made the proper association. A third Fact is that dogs will anticipate the next move you are going to make. When the dog is whoad in the second part of this exercise he is whoad on the scent of the bird. The dog learns through association that stopping on scent will produce a bird. Once the dog has had enough repetitions he will anticipate that you are going to say whoa when he hits scent and stop on his own. Now you took a dog that did not point because he was allowed to chase and taught him that the ends to his means is stopping on the scent. In this post the dog did not point at all. If you think that letting the dog come into his own point over time will work, then why cant the dog come into his own point over time after he learns to stop on scent? Furthermore if you have a dog that does not have style on point you still have a dog that can be stacked to create the style you want. In this post you are fixing a problem. You are not starting with a dog that is 4 months old.The dog was trained to not point now you have to train the dog to point. With this method the last thing the dog is is confused. The dog has been trained to stop on command , it is a command the dog knows. When the dog learns that the reward is the bird it will be more motivated to comply. If the dog is not allowed to retrieve until it is steady to wing and shot then the reward is the sight of the bird and is enough to motivate the dog. If you believe that dogs are moral beings and do things they want to do and need to be punished for indiscretions then you should not take this advice . My belief is that dogs are animals, they see things as either safe or dangerous , learn by association, and are motivated to please themselves.

In my way of getting the dog to point, where are you seeing pressure that might make the dog apprehensive in training? I haven’t described the use of any force. The dog is making its own decision to stop and point. I agree dogs learn by association, and what I described is an association based training technique.

I completely agree with Brenda, pointing is instinctive, and cannot be taught. What you are doing is teaching the dog to “stand” birds. I can train a collie to do that, but it isn’t pointing. I don’t doubt a dog may eventually make the connection with whoaing to bird scent and start pointing, but it’s the long way to get there. Teaching a dog to stand birds would be the last resort I would use for a dog that exhibited no natural pointing instinct.

The age of the dog really doesn’t matter. The basic technique to get it pointing is the same. I just did this with a 2 year old Weim that wasn’t pointing. By the end of the second session, it was pointing. Next session, we will start working on getting it to hold its point.

Wow, you don’t let your dogs have retrieves until they’re steady to wing & shot? I reinforce the retrieving instinct from the time they’re puppies. It makes for less work getting consistent retrieves later. I don’t doubt you can get things done your way. It just seems like there are a lot of steps and time involved by-passing the dog’s natural instinct instead of using the dogs innate pointing instinct to accomplish the same thing in less time.

That being said, if your system works for you, and you are happy with the results you get, stay with it. It’s just not the way I would do it.

[gonehuntin']

If the dog is not allowed to retrieve until it is steady to wing and shot then the reward is the sight of the bird and is enough to motivate the dog.

A belief like that is why so many pointing dogs have so little retrieving desire today. It's all a matter of balance, as all training is.

[birddogger]

That being said, if your system works for you, and you are happy with the results you get, stay with it. It’s just not the way I would do it.

Ditto!!

Charlie

[ezzy333]

That being said, if your system works for you, and you are happy with the results you get, stay with it. It’s just not the way I would do it.

Ditto!!

Charlie

Can I ditto ditto?

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

Actually, I can't imagine it's the way ANY dog man would do it. None of that system makes the least sense.

[wems2371]

I recently accuired a brittany that is now 15 months old. He is of good breeding. I have been working with him in the field with basic handling skills for a few months. I have gotten him into wild bird sent be have not seen him point. I started this week planting pigeons in a launcher and he runs right up on the launcher before he will stop on point. I am able to pop the bird and fire a blank gun shot and he wants to chase the bird and watch it fly. Any suggestions?

Droptine, I only have a couple years with pointing dogs, so I shy away from giving advice. I'll just throw out a few things I would do.

I'd lose the blank gun for now, if you're trying to combine it with the launchers. You already know he's not gunshy, so no point in trying to manage a launcher and a gun. And if he's like my dogs, gunfire just makes him all that more amped up, and you don't need that right now.

If you're using a checkcord, I'd plant birds so that tracking is impossible. We learned that with our first girl, who is excellent at tracking. So now when we plant birds/launchers, we prethink the wind and how we'll bring the dog in, and skirt around the area to plant the launcher, and then walk out the same way. We try to not leave a downwind foottrack, in the area we'll be in. My older dog is now beyond checkcording, but we still do that with her, even if it means I have to walk 30 minutes to plant 3 birds.

If you're not using a checkcord with the launchers, I would for some control over the situation. Set your scenario up and cc the dog through the scent cone. Start back some distance, so you won't be right on top of the launcher. Look for signs of scent acknowledgement and pop the bird. I am NO expert, but I often see folks ignore the dog getting first scent, and letting them road right up to the bird before it points. If your crossing through the scent cone, and the dog lifts his nose, turns towards the launcher, or whatever it may be...he's got the scent.

And the last thing I'd mention, which is probably too basic for a dog of this age, is popping the checkcord and bringing the dog to a stop, when you see him get first scent. Somewhere I have a video of doing that with one of our pups, as she was getting some of her first bird intro, and thinking about catwalking in. That pop made her stop in her tracks and hold a nice point. It was like she needed a reminder of what to do. Then again, she was maybe 4 months at the time...

I personally wouldn't whoa a dog into pointing birds, unless I'd tried all other avenues, and it sounds like you are just getting started with his field work. I would still teach whoa in the yard, but I wouldn't be applying it to the field at this point. Again, you get what you pay for, with my novice advice...

[4dabirds]

If the dog is not allowed to retrieve until it is steady to wing and shot then the reward is the sight of the bird and is enough to motivate the dog.

A belief like that is why so many pointing dogs have so little retrieving desire today. It's all a matter of balance, as all training is.

Funny my dog does not have this problem.

[ezzy333]

If the dog is not allowed to retrieve until it is steady to wing and shot then the reward is the sight of the bird and is enough to motivate the dog.

A belief like that is why so many pointing dogs have so little retrieving desire today. It's all a matter of balance, as all training is.

Funny my dog does not have this problem.

What kind of a dog do you have and what do you hunt?

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

A belief like that is why so many pointing dogs have so little retrieving desire today. It's all a matter of balance, as all training is.[/quote]
Funny my dog does not have this problem.[/quote]
ezzy said What kind of a dog do you have and what do you hunt?
I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this question when put in relation to the comment by gonehuntin. It is curious to me that people who have not used a method or who obviously know nothing about it will comment on the efficacy of that method. Now you want to know the history of my dog so you can contrive some reason why the method that has worked for me is some how flawed. So you tell me what kind of dog you think I have that would respond to this type of training in this way.

[Winchey]

Maybe it isn't "the way" but it makes perfect sense to me and I certainly don't see how it would make matters worse. At the very least it is reinforcing the whoa command in a positive way. I am dumfounded as to gonehuntings reasoning that whoa must always relate to something negative in the dogs mind. I also don't see why everyone seems to assume that you would always have to whoa the dog into every bird or that the dog would never be able to hold point when not in visual without the whoa cue. That makes about as much sense as someone saying that a dog taught to hold point with a check cord would never be able to transition to the dog holding point without a check cord. I also think the whole the dog is causing the tension on his own neck with the check cord so there is no downside is a bit ridiculous as well. It is still going to cause the dog frustration. Just because the dog may or may not link it with the handler has no bearing on the dog feeling frustrated or not, it only meens that the dog may or may not be frustrated with the handler. Obviously that is better than the dog being frustrated at the handler but it certainly is not perfect.

[birddogger]

Maybe it isn't "the way" but it makes perfect sense to me and I certainly don't see how it would make matters worse. At the very least it is reinforcing the whoa command in a positive way. I am dumfounded as to gonehuntings reasoning that whoa must always relate to something negative in the dogs mind. I also don't see why everyone seems to assume that you would always have to whoa the dog into every bird or that the dog would never be able to hold point when not in visual without the whoa cue. That makes about as much sense as someone saying that a dog taught to hold point with a check cord would never be able to transition to the dog holding point without a check cord. I also think the whole the dog is causing the tension on his own neck with the check cord so there is no downside is a bit ridiculous as well. It is still going to cause the dog frustration. Just because the dog may or may not link it with the handler has no bearing on the dog feeling frustrated or not, it only meens that the dog may or may not be frustrated with the handler. Obviously that is better than the dog being frustrated at the handler but it certainly is not perfect.

Huh??

Charlie

[ezzy333]

A belief like that is why so many pointing dogs have so little retrieving desire today. It's all a matter of balance, as all training is.

Funny my dog does not have this problem.[/quote]
ezzy said What kind of a dog do you have and what do you hunt?
I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this question when put in relation to the comment by gonehuntin. It is curious to me that people who have not used a method or who obviously know nothing about it will comment on the efficacy of that method. Now you want to know the history of my dog so you can contrive some reason why the method that has worked for me is some how flawed. So you tell me what kind of dog you think I have that would respond to this type of training in this way.[/quote]

Yep I asked but not for the reason you stated. Never having seen a picture or hearing you talk about your dog I have no idea whether you own a pointer or a flusher or if you even have a dog at present. I have found there is a difference in training a retriever type dog and a pointer so I was curious. Now after this post I am even more curious since you seem to not want to tell us.

Further more, I am not the least bit concerned how you trained your dog and am really glad whatever you did worked so well. I did try to tell you how I have done mine over the years and why I have found it to work better for the dog. And as I tried to say but maybe failed is that Whoa has nothing to do with pointing, holding a point, or anything to do with or around birds. Whoa is an obedience command that says stop where you are and stay there. The reason I like to keep them separate is I have found a big difference in intensity between pointing and just stopping to whoa. However if the dog does make a mistake and I want it to stop and stand then I can tell it whoa whenever it is needed.

But uppermost in this method is the difference in style and intensity of a point compared to an obedience whoa. And too many times dogs are ruined for life in those areas when the dog stops because it knows someone is about to say whoa compared to the fact it was going to point hard and intense because there is a bird there without a word from the handler.

Glad your method works for you and I will tell you my method works for every dog I have seen or worked with. Seems we both should be happy that our dogs ended up really intense on their points if you have a pointer..

Ezzy

[Winchey]

I thought we were talking about a dog that does not point? You have 3 options I can think of, stop him physically with the checkcord when he catches scent, stop him verbally and reward with a flushed bird, or allow him to flush the bird but physically restrain him from chasing in hopes he starts pointing. My point is there are a lot of decent methods out there and just because you don't use a particular one or have a different point of view doesen't make it wrong. The thing that seperates the best trainers from the rest is their ability to read a dog, experience, and their ability to execute their method of choice. Just because you may produce better dogs with your method than someone else does with his does not neccesarilly mean your method is best as in my opinion 90% or more of dog training is experience, ability to read dogs or a particular dog, and execution. It is entirely possible for someone who can't execute worth a "bleep" or who can't read a dog to know more about dogs, training methods, learning theories etc... than the successful trainer.

[kninebirddog]

What other is allow the dog to cause bird to flush let him commit to the chase and cue him to a stop starting with the check cord and then teaching a point of contact on the flank and graduate to there

with wild flushes the dog isn't being force to point and with patience will learn to stop to flush as you will make a habit of applying the brakes for a stop at the flank again after this area has been worked on in yard work so the dog learns stimulation means stop Apply not slam at the start you do not want to punish the dog..then soon as the dog is stopping to the flushes then work the dog into the wind and let him cause the bird to flush and if he commits to the chase let him then cue him to stop

again it takes patience it will not happen in a session or two I had a female that it took all summer before she finally clued into begin to point and now she looks great on point as I allowed her to get it out of her system but still maintained some control

as i stated earlier

There are many ways the key is to figure out which one the dog is not going to develop undesired habits like blinking flagging or take out the desire and just have a dog stand there lack of intensity because the bird is now boring from being forced to stop on it

[4dabirds]

Maybe it isn't "the way" but it makes perfect sense to me and I certainly don't see how it would make matters worse. At the very least it is reinforcing the whoa command in a positive way. I am dumfounded as to gonehuntings reasoning that whoa must always relate to something negative in the dogs mind. I also don't see why everyone seems to assume that you would always have to whoa the dog into every bird or that the dog would never be able to hold point when not in visual without the whoa cue. That makes about as much sense as someone saying that a dog taught to hold point with a check cord would never be able to transition to the dog holding point without a check cord. I also think the whole the dog is causing the tension on his own neck with the check cord so there is no downside is a bit ridiculous as well. It is still going to cause the dog frustration. Just because the dog may or may not link it with the handler has no bearing on the dog feeling frustrated or not, it only meens that the dog may or may not be frustrated with the handler. Obviously that is better than the dog being frustrated at the handler but it certainly is not perfect.

Thank you winchey. I think the part that some people are missing here is that with the method I use whoa is a positive command . It is not trained with negative reinforcer. The collar is added after the dog is 80% on the command. Once the dog is 100% on the command he is ready for this type of training. The dog is going to whoa not because he was compelled to, he will do it because it is how he perceives a way to get reward. Like I said in my previous post , the dog gets whoad without the scent of the bird. In the dogs mind he is doing this for reward. He quickly learns that the bird is produced and will make the association that whoa = birds = reward. The post was about a dog that does NOT point. If the dog has suspect reaction around birds why keep doing what they were doing or add a negative reinforcer while the dog is in the presence of a bird. I think ezzys' interpretation that whoa should not be used in relation to pointing misses the whole idea of this exercise . You are not teaching the dog to point. You are getting the dog to make an association that to get what he wants he has to stop chasing. In this case the dog had no point so what have you got to lose. If you remember the post about the magic brush pile . This concept is very similar. Before the dog can build unwanted behaviors around birds he is getting the dog to make the association that standing still is how the dog gets the bird.The brush pile becomes a cue to stop and when the dog stops he gets rewarded with the bird. The idea is to use the dogs natural tendency to find a strategy that works for the dog to get what the dog wants. The dog is never allowed to chase because the danger in this is the dog may become content in chasing . This also has nothing to do with pointing. That will or will not come if it is bred into the dog.There is an in depth explanation of the magic brush pile on shooting sportsman website. And finally My dog is a setter. He is 2 years old is steady to wing and shot and will retrieve to hand. He showed little desire to retrieve as a pup so I did not encourage it . I believe if the dog has little desire there is no point in having the dog make mistakes that will be hard to correct later on . I forced retrieve trained him and now he marks birds standing on his hind legs if necessary, will retrieve multiple birds. and has made retrieves over a 100 yards. All with a wagging tail right to my hand.

[slistoe]

I thought we were talking about a dog that does not point?

he runs right up on the launcher before he will stop on point.

I think you thought wrong. It seems to me the dog points, just not with the requisite caution/distance to handle wild birds.

[4dabirds]

have gotten him into wild bird sent be have not seen him point.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Winchey]

Ya I definately should have read the op's question more thoroughly. Biggest problem I see is you have launchers and are allowing the dog to run right up on the launcher. The great thing about launchers is you can launch the bird when when presumably a wild bird would have flushed. If you aren't going to launch it until the dog is right on top of it the only benefit of the launcher is you don't have to bend over to release them. By allowing the dog to do this you are effectively teaching the dog it can get as close as he wants to the bird. In my opinion planting birds has little to do with hunting. If the dog is fired up about birds and you have wild birds to work on I would think of the training bird work as manners on birds. Not pointing. Basically you need to teach to hold a point, and not to chase. The wild birds will teach a dog to point staunchly and how to pin them, and how close he can get and how to find them, in my opinion. Don't confuse him by allowing him to get so close to birds sometimes. You said your dog points on top of them, that's all you need to see, your dog points. Staunchness will come with confidence and many contacts on wild birds. Your goal is to teach manners around birds with the pen ones while leaving the least amount of fingerprints on him as possible. Just don't get so caught up in waiting for your dog to point before you launch, its about manners, the dog knows how to point, you don't need to teach that.

[ezzy333]

Ya I definately should have read the op's question more thoroughly. Biggest problem I see is you have launchers and are allowing the dog to run right up on the launcher. The great thing about launchers is you can launch the bird when when presumably a wild bird would have flushed. If you aren't going to launch it until the dog is right on top of it the only benefit of the launcher is you don't have to bend over to release them. By allowing the dog to do this you are effectively teaching the dog it can get as close as he wants to the bird. In my opinion planting birds has little to do with hunting. If the dog is fired up about birds and you have wild birds to work on I would think of the training bird work as manners on birds. Not pointing. Basically you need to teach to hold a point, and not to chase. The wild birds will teach a dog to point staunchly and how to pin them, and how close he can get and how to find them, in my opinion. Don't confuse him by allowing him to get so close to birds sometimes. You said your dog points on top of them, that's all you need to see, your dog points. Staunchness will come with confidence and many contacts on wild birds. Your goal is to teach manners around birds with the pen ones while leaving the least amount of fingerprints on him as possible. Just don't get so caught up in waiting for your dog to point before you launch, its about manners, the dog knows how to point, you don't need to teach that.

I agree. Seems you got it right this time. That was the point I have been making that you aren't teaching a dog to point but rather bring the natural point out and reinforcing it by having it see the birds flush every time it gets too close or moves after establishing the point.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

have gotten him into wild bird sent be have not seen him point.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

How many dogs have you raised?

[slistoe]

Ya I definately should have read the op's question more thoroughly. Biggest problem I see is you have launchers and are allowing the dog to run right up on the launcher. The great thing about launchers is you can launch the bird when when presumably a wild bird would have flushed. If you aren't going to launch it until the dog is right on top of it the only benefit of the launcher is you don't have to bend over to release them. By allowing the dog to do this you are effectively teaching the dog it can get as close as he wants to the bird. In my opinion planting birds has little to do with hunting. If the dog is fired up about birds and you have wild birds to work on I would think of the training bird work as manners on birds. Not pointing. Basically you need to teach to hold a point, and not to chase. The wild birds will teach a dog to point staunchly and how to pin them, and how close he can get and how to find them, in my opinion. Don't confuse him by allowing him to get so close to birds sometimes. You said your dog points on top of them, that's all you need to see, your dog points. Staunchness will come with confidence and many contacts on wild birds. Your goal is to teach manners around birds with the pen ones while leaving the least amount of fingerprints on him as possible. Just don't get so caught up in waiting for your dog to point before you launch, its about manners, the dog knows how to point, you don't need to teach that.

So.... are you sticking with endorsing telling the dog to whoa? Sounds to me like you understand the concept.

[Winchey]

I definately agree that you shouldn't have to teach a dog to point. I just don't think that 4dabirds method is doing that, it looks like a manners drill to me.

[Winchey]

Ya I definately should have read the op's question more thoroughly. Biggest problem I see is you have launchers and are allowing the dog to run right up on the launcher. The great thing about launchers is you can launch the bird when when presumably a wild bird would have flushed. If you aren't going to launch it until the dog is right on top of it the only benefit of the launcher is you don't have to bend over to release them. By allowing the dog to do this you are effectively teaching the dog it can get as close as he wants to the bird. In my opinion planting birds has little to do with hunting. If the dog is fired up about birds and you have wild birds to work on I would think of the training bird work as manners on birds. Not pointing. Basically you need to teach to hold a point, and not to chase. The wild birds will teach a dog to point staunchly and how to pin them, and how close he can get and how to find them, in my opinion. Don't confuse him by allowing him to get so close to birds sometimes. You said your dog points on top of them, that's all you need to see, your dog points. Staunchness will come with confidence and many contacts on wild birds. Your goal is to teach manners around birds with the pen ones while leaving the least amount of fingerprints on him as possible. Just don't get so caught up in waiting for your dog to point before you launch, its about manners, the dog knows how to point, you don't need to teach that.

So.... are you sticking with endorsing telling the dog to whoa? Sounds to me like you understand the concept.

Are you endorsing that you are capable of completely breaking a dog with no commands and no retstraints? To me 4dabirds method is associating a desired behaviour in the precense of birds. To me it looks like a good drill and seems like it may be benificial and translate to the dog standing his birds once he starts establishing his own points when he is finding his own birds.I don't think that drill is diminishing a natural point, or attempting to create an artificial one. It is very similar to stopping a dog with a checkcord imo but uses a different motivator. You have to teach a dog to hold point for a long time and you have to teach a dog to not chase. The initial point is natural and you can set up stand off scenarios but without teaching, inforcing and reinforcing manners eventually that dog is going to break.

[slistoe]

Ok, I guess you don't understand the concept.
4dabirds is coming from what I call a "do no harm" philosophy. The first basic premise which completely undermines the whole of his approach is that dogs do not simply please themselves, but they also act in a manner to please their handler. They are social animals that derive satisfaction from doing that which garners them approval from the leaders (at least the ones that we consider to be trainable do). So we are totally dominating the dog making sure that it does only that which gains our approval. We are conditioning it to do no harm when we have it out in the field. The dog may or may not ever awaken its own instincts, but if it does it will be because it's desire overrides that control and dependency that we have so carefully fostered. But for most dogs it will never be that the birds stop the dog. It will always be that we have conditioned to the dog that we are pleased when the dog stops anytime it may find itself near to birds - or any other time that it thinks we need pleasing, or any time that it thinks we should produce a bird because it needs pleasing, or...... So, if your reality in hunting is not about the dog but more about that the dog should in no way interfere in your hunting, then have at it. Train as 4dabirds advocates. Or you can take the advice of all the other posters on here who would use the natural instincts of the dog to bring about the desired end - a dog that hunts and points because everything in every fiber of its being tells it to. Then we come up and shoot the birds. (Bolded to clarify how I see the training process progressing as opposed to the former part describing how I see 4dabirds training.)

And no, you do not have to teach a dog to hold point for a long time, that is what the instinct will do for you as the dog develops and matures. And you certainly do not have to teach a dog not to chase to have a serviceable hunting dog, but should you care to then that is what Whoa is for.