curing blinking

doscazadores · Post by **doscazadores** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:46 pm

A friend has a dog that was very severely corrected when the dog managed to get hold of a planted bird early on in the dog's training. As I understand it, second hand from my friend, the dog was really chewing on the bird and was nailed by way of the e-collar. The dog was a fast learner and really learned a lesson with that correction. He is now a dedicated blinker, but is still very interested in birds. I know how the problem started and like a lot of others am now interested in a solution. I've never been around a dog who blinked birds.
When I first saw the dog his interest in birds still showed when he saw them flush at a distance; he'd chase energetically. But when I held a pigeon near him to see if he would want it the response was, "heck no, get me away from that thing." Small wonder. I didn't push the issue. I walked 10-20 yards and let it fly. The dog watched it until it flew out of sight.
I have trained two good pointers and have helped with several others but I'm no expert by anyone's measure. For this problem I thought we'd limit a pigeon's flying ability with a string and piece of garden hose and just let it sight, chase, and catch the birds for as long as it takes him to lose his fear of being in close proximity to them, then start over again with the training . Does this seem a reasonable approach? Is there a better way? We don't want to give up on this dog.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:05 pm

I would get together with some one that can assess the dog a bit better in person. There are some things that can be tried but it really depends on the dog as to what to try.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:30 am

First, I agree with K-9 whole heartedly.

Second, many times when a blinker is created like this, it can be cured by a total collar ff program. Once the dog learns that the collar reinforces many things, not simply negative things, then birds and retrieving can again become fun for him.

I think you're looking at a cure by a pro.

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:35 pm

I would take the dog away from pigeons immediately. With every problem from breeding and lack of natural ability, there will be issues that need to be fixed. This dog with a poor mouthing issue. Definately time to FF this dog, but when you bring the dog back to the field DONT LET IT POINT THE BIRD. I make sure they are completely FF, and I toss pigeons from a bag and shoot. After about 10-15 birds the dogs begins to enjoy that game. Then you can roll back into the pointing.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:28 am

Dashin Gun Dogs wrote:I would take the dog away from pigeons immediately. With every problem from breeding and lack of natural ability, there will be issues that need to be fixed. This dog with a poor mouthing issue. Definately time to FF this dog, but when you bring the dog back to the field DONT LET IT POINT THE BIRD. I make sure they are completely FF, and I toss pigeons from a bag and shoot. After about 10-15 birds the dogs begins to enjoy that game. Then you can roll back into the pointing.

Are you just shooting in the air? Do you shoot any of the birds and let the dog retrieve?

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:19 am

I shoot it after I toss it in the air. They are FF at this point, and I require them to retrieve. Then after 10 tossed birds, I start shooting them from the planted position.

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:37 am

doscazadores wrote:A friend has a dog that was very severely corrected when the dog managed to get hold of a planted bird early on in the dog's training. As I understand it, second hand from my friend, the dog was really chewing on the bird and was nailed by way of the e-collar. The dog was a fast learner and really learned a lesson with that correction. He is now a dedicated blinker, but is still very interested in birds. I know how the problem started and like a lot of others am now interested in a solution. I've never been around a dog who blinked birds.
When I first saw the dog his interest in birds still showed when he saw them flush at a distance; he'd chase energetically. But when I held a pigeon near him to see if he would want it the response was, "heck no, get me away from that thing." Small wonder. I didn't push the issue. I walked 10-20 yards and let it fly. The dog watched it until it flew out of sight.
I have trained two good pointers and have helped with several others but I'm no expert by anyone's measure. For this problem I thought we'd limit a pigeon's flying ability with a string and piece of garden hose and just let it sight, chase, and catch the birds for as long as it takes him to lose his fear of being in close proximity to them, then start over again with the training . Does this seem a reasonable approach? Is there a better way? We don't want to give up on this dog.

If the dog is good with the shotgun I would checkcord him on some birds, have a gunner tag along. When the dog hits scent and tries to blink stop him real easy, don't allow him to leave the area. Have the gunner go right in flush and kill the bird. Let the dog go to the dead bird, if he will pick up the bird any kind of way even if he eats it don't say or do anything negative. I would want to see if I could get the dog over that problem before I put much more training time in the dog. You watch most people when a dog gets a bird in its mouth they loose thier mind and cause all kinds of training problems

Mo

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:22 pm

not sure how FF can fix blinking a point, i think you need to back up fix the the blinking by putting fun an excitement in the birds ALL POSITIVE !!! no preasure!! just dont let him catch any birds.. after this is fixed then FF for the retrieving an mouthing problem.. good luck

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:35 pm

The issue is the dog likes to eat birds. Don't continue to let that happen. That is why I would FF, then I would fix the issue with the method I stated above.

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:47 pm

the issue now is that he blinks birds. got to fix that before you ever worry about the dog eating a bird.

I have seen people go all the way back to a puppy introduction. get a bird put it in front of the dog with flight feathers pulled and let him have at. He has got to get his confidence back and learn that birds are fun again. YES, this may make the breaking process a little harder, but if the dog does not like birds or want to find birds you don't have a bird dog anyway.

brandon

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:06 am

well said bwjohn

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:00 am

It is fixing the problem, but think down the road. The dog likes to see birds, but doesn't like to smell them currently. That is why when you FF, and when you reintroduce to pigeons I toss and shoot (no scent cone) until they love retrieving them. Once they luv it, you let them hit the scent cone on pigeons and quial.

I know this will work, since I have fixed issues like this before. I wouldn't suggest if experience wouldn't have proved successful in the past.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:55 am

I believe the dog dont like smelling birds do the the preasure that is assocated with bird contact caused by the handler, FF is just more preasure why put the dog through that at this point.. I`m not saying ur way is wrong an wont fix it, but most people cant get through FF let alone having a problem already in place like this ....A pro trainer could pull this off probaly but not the averge guy in my opion.. Most Pro`s usaly say just back an slow down..A proper FF dog should take about 6 weeks or so an has alot of ups an downs.. If the guy is having trouble with blinking, how bad is FF going to be for him..I think we need to keep in mind the Level of the handler an keep it simple an bomb proff.. Having said that till you see the dog in action its a hard call for anyone....I`m done... good luck

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:43 pm

Each time I read one of these posts, I can't help think that if people would give bird dog's and organized and complete training program, they wouldn't have these problems.

When I was training, every dog in the kennel, pointer, flusher, retriever, went through the identical program to a point, then diversified according to breed. We NEVER had blinking problems with dogs.

All dogs were obedience trained, forced with a collar, fully collar conditioned. Sure saves a lot of problems.

The retriever guys figured it out eons ago.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:01 pm

patience will be a key word in this style of fix, not ff. Thanks Jonesy

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:12 pm

Hatrick, point well taken. A person who messed up a dog would probably not have the talent to fix this issue. Their impatience, uncotrolled situation, and poor timing of enforcement caused this issue. The dog shoud probably be taken to a pro. This dog will have issues pointing for sometime. I FF because I know what the end result will bring, and I have had years of experience taking them back to the field. I shouldnt expect others to have the same experiences.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:21 pm

Dashin Gun Dog.. we are on the same page now. just for the record I am a big fan of FF I believe its the foundation for high level training.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:34 pm

Easiest way to fix blinking is to not cause it................

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:09 pm

Dashing Gun Dogs; Guess I'm having trouble following the train of thought, how does force fetch cure blinking???

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:35 pm

The dog is blinking at the issue of mouthing the bird. The problem worsend as now he has associated the scent cone with the bird and blinks on sight or scent. The issue with fixing the blinking problem is, are you going to let him eat more birds? Then what do you do, you have no way to correct that bad habit, and you just keep letting it happen. A dog usually needs to get a bird in its mouth to stop blinking, and the proper way to avoid future issues of eating would be to FF.
FF is the process of picking up any thing on command. During the transition to the field from FF, I throw birds and make them retrieve. This will be a game after 10-20 bird and not just a forced action. With a lot of praise and good drive, a dog begins to love to retrieve. After it loves retrieving, I take them to a bird and let them point it. The scent cone and the fun of retrieving click toghether. If it doesnt point, kick the bird up, shoot it, and let em retrieve. After a few correlations of I get to retrieve that bird, then the issue of blinking will subside.

If this was a dog I was training and after FF, I would pull feathers out of a bird the first time I took it back to a scent cone. I would let it root the bird up, and I would have it retrieve it back to me. I would play a game and throw that retrieved bird a few times and praise the dog.

The problem with dog training, if you dont prevent issues from careless training, you have to fix them. With every created issue you fix, you create another problem. I would rather fix the dog by training it properly on retrieve and not concentrate solely on fixing the blinking. If you solely concentrate on fixing the blinking, it will just create more training detriment down the road. I sure hope I am making sense. It has worked for me in the past when I have fixed client dogs.

The difference if I had trained the dog, I would have had a checkcord on it. I would have pulled the dog to me, and I would have pulled the bird out of its mouth. The rest of the training would have been steadying to wing-n-shot, and not let it retrieve. Then I would FF the dog after the dog was completely steady on its bird work. I hope the owner has realized lesson learned.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Personally I would let the dog chase,catch,eat or just about anything it wants to do with a bird untill he is bird crazy again.JMO

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:40 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Personally I would let the dog chase,catch,eat or just about anything it wants to do with a bird untill he is bird crazy again.JMO

Me too, cause if you don't cure the blinking the dog sure is not going point birds that can be shot and retrieved.

Mo

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:44 pm

Why is the dog blinking. Because he shocked it on the retrieve, time to fix the retrieving issues.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:55 pm

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:19 pm

Dashin Gun Dogs wrote:Why is the dog blinking. Because he shocked it on the retrieve, time to fix the retrieving issues.

Not from what I read. The dog caught a live planted bird and crunched it and got hit hot with the collar, there is a difference imo.

Mo

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:38 pm

The dog isnt blinking birds, because of the retrieve, that hasnt got a thing to do with the retrieve......even though the booger was caused during the retrieve, it has gotten deeper now.

So, if the dog was gunshy, and started blinking the bird because of the gun.......what would happen then?
If the dog was blinking the bird, because of the launchers.......what would happen then?
If the dog was laying down, because of the whoa work, and started blinking birds because of that......what would happen then. You gonna ff it? Nope, you are gonna get it back to liking birds, and enjoying them....and then you will build, once you see that negative wall coming down, and the confidence getting stronger, that is your open door of opportunity......to build, and step forward.

It is the bird, that the dog is nervous of, or unsure of, or unconfident with. The retrieve hasnt got a thing to do with the bird booger. That was the ballfield that the dog was in when the booger arose.
If you think on what the dog says, by being excited to see the bird fly, but doesnt wanna smell it on the ground......why is that??
Its because that is the action that happened prior to the retrieve....that was when the bird was on the ground.......in the dogs mind, it is safer to leave it on the ground.....just like the gun, and whatever else. So, what happens if the FF doesnt work, and what you advised, makes the bird booger worse? Thanks Jonesy

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:12 pm

Jonesy,
This is a room where people ask for advice, and people do provide advice (good or bad, but with good intentions we hope). Advices is sometimes criticized so others can feel better about themselves. I have been guilty of that. Instead individuals could just offer their suggestions and leave it at that.

As for your questions of launcher shy (that isn't blinking the bird), that is the uneducated trainer that didn't provide a proper introduction to the launcher.
As for gun shy, well that blinking is because of the loud sounds(man made or genetic). It can be fixed but with different methods depending on the dogs attitude.

As for a dog with bird chase drive, but it doesn't want to touch because of the accidental bird avoidance training FF can work.
For this particular situation, FF would require the dog to retrieve the bird he used to fear. Now he has his mouth on it while retrieving, and he now feels he dominates that bird. He isn't scared of it anymore, because it is fun to retrieve it. The FF has to be done correctly though.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:07 am

I know what the board is for, and I blink alot of the topics. I will chime in when the dog is gonna be put in a bad predicament. You are misreading the dog. Good luck, thanks Jonesy

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:20 am

Blinking can manifest in several ways - usually a refusal to acknowledge the presence of birds. Some times a 'blink' response is standing, flagging, and refusing to establish a solid point. A single training 'incident' can drive the blinking response in pretty deep. In some cases the dog can be brought around again, but may go back to blinking under any sort of pressure. Sometimes, it just can't be undone and you are better off getting another prospect and starting over.

E-collars in excitable and inexperienced hands have created a lot of blinkers.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:29 pm

Wow. I am late to the show on this one, but I have dog who blinks. I probably created the issue from my own stupidity. What Dashinis saying is making perfect sense to an idiot who has made that mistake.

Why would you bash a man who was had success fixing problem people like me create? I don't get it.....

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:55 pm

Dashin Gun Dogs wrote:Jonesy,
This is a room where people ask for advice, and people do provide advice (good or bad, but with good intentions we hope). Advices is sometimes criticized so others can feel better about themselves. I have been guilty of that. Instead individuals could just offer their suggestions and leave it at that.

As for your questions of launcher shy (that isn't blinking the bird), that is the uneducated trainer that didn't provide a proper introduction to the launcher.
As for gun shy, well that blinking is because of the loud sounds(man made or genetic). It can be fixed but with different methods depending on the dogs attitude.

As for a dog with bird chase drive, but it doesn't want to touch because of the accidental bird avoidance training FF can work.
For this particular situation, FF would require the dog to retrieve the bird he used to fear. Now he has his mouth on it while retrieving, and he now feels he dominates that bird. He isn't scared of it anymore, because it is fun to retrieve it. The FF has to be done correctly though.

Several points that confuse me. How do you tell which pups are born gunshy and which aren't? If you can't tell then how do we know they are bred that way? You also say that a gunshy dog is afraid of loud noices, but then say that FF works because the dog was afraid of the birds, which one is it, noice or birds?

My experience has always been that the dog is afraid of the gun report so my method is to correct that situation and not force the dog to retrieve a bird but still be afraid of the voice of the gun.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:37 pm

You have one if the biggest Brittany pros right next to you in the riverside area who I would consult with and see if you can get lessons from.

I don't want to seem like I know anything about helping your friend but pm me if you want the names and numbers to some pros who you live around.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:09 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Dashin Gun Dogs wrote:Jonesy,
This is a room where people ask for advice, and people do provide advice (good or bad, but with good intentions we hope). Advices is sometimes criticized so others can feel better about themselves. I have been guilty of that. Instead individuals could just offer their suggestions and leave it at that.

As for your questions of launcher shy (that isn't blinking the bird), that is the uneducated trainer that didn't provide a proper introduction to the launcher.
As for gun shy, well that blinking is because of the loud sounds(man made or genetic). It can be fixed but with different methods depending on the dogs attitude.

As for a dog with bird chase drive, but it doesn't want to touch because of the accidental bird avoidance training FF can work.
For this particular situation, FF would require the dog to retrieve the bird he used to fear. Now he has his mouth on it while retrieving, and he now feels he dominates that bird. He isn't scared of it anymore, because it is fun to retrieve it. The FF has to be done correctly though.

Several points that confuse me. How do you tell which pups are born gunshy and which aren't? If you can't tell then how do we know they are bred that way? You also say that a gunshy dog is afraid of loud noices, but then say that FF works because the dog was afraid of the birds, which one is it, noice or birds?

My experience has always been that the dog is afraid of the gun report so my method is to correct that situation and not force the dog to retrieve a bird but still be afraid of the voice of the gun.

Ezzy

this thread was never about a gunshy dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:15 pm

Brad, Didn't start that way but I did respond to Ken's post that I quoted. But the same is pretty much true no matter what you are trying to cure. In this case the dog was blinking because it got repremanded for picking the bird up in its mind. We need to fix that and not just force the dog to do something it doesn't want to do because of a mistake made.

Ezzy

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:32 pm

Ezzy,
my response to Jonesy was inteded to say I don't use FF to fix everything. That is all that post was about. I wasnt stating that trying to cure a gun shy dog with FF. That wouldn't work. A noise shy dog has to be fixed with different methods.

I have offered the advice on how I would fix the dog that is blinking. I wouldn't offer the advice if I hadn't fixed dogs like this in the past. Pretty plain and simple. I fix problems by not focusing on the problem. With every man-made issue that you focus on another issue will manifest. That is why it is better to train where no issues will arise.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:28 am

I have found this discussion very interesting since one of my reasons for joining this forum was to learn more about e-collars than it is possible to learn in Britain.

Speaking from a British gun dog training point of view I wouldn't use an e-collar to try to "cure" a problem with blinking game. It is always difficult to say for sure what course of action to take without seeing the dog .........and maybe the handler in person . With that proviso in place I think I'd try to sort out this dogs close distance aversion to birds caused by pain by trying to have birds cause pleasure instead.

I'd probably begin in a large room in the house or in an area of the garden or "yard" as your mob calls it.

A dead pigeon or perhaps a partridge would be encased in part of a ladies tights or nylons (a partridge might be better since it was a pigeon the dog was given the correction on.) I'd play with the dog with this bundle in my hand encouraging the dog to grab it but keeping my hand on the bird. If the dog wanted to grab it ,my hand would be getting grabbed too and most dogs know not to bite down on hands.

Assuming this went O.K. I'd begin to snip little bits of the nylon encasing the bird, pulling through a few feathers then maybe a head or/and the birds legs. Working slowly at this I'd end up with a "bare" bird that the dog was happy to take in it's mouth. From there it wouldn't take long to have the dog pick the bird, perhaps once more completely or partially encased in nylon from the floor . I'd build up from there to having the dog retrieve the bird and I wouldn't use F.F., I don't find it neccessary when training gundogs.

By now I should have a dog which will retrieve a bird in the house or garden and it would be time to move outdoors to repeat the whole process. I might attach a lead to the dog at this stage and walk with it towards the bird to be retrieved. If the dog was still keen a live bird with a circlet of tights around it body and wings would then be placed and the dog walked on lead towards it. Since the bird cannot flap it's wings the dog is unlikely to get a scare. It might even sight point the bird while still on the lead. Whether the dog tried to point the bird or retrieve it I'd praise the dog and begin to build back in the dogs love of live game.

Just a slightly different point of view !

Bill T.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:26 am

I like your idea can never be too cautious. although you still have to adress why the dog was blinking in the first place so you are not doomed to repeat it.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:49 am

The way I read the original post the dog was very strongly physically corrected while in the presence of game. That is a big no-no for most folk in this country. Game should only give a dog good experiences therefor I'd try to use parts of a retrieve exercise using game at first dead and encased in tights to give the dog it's pleasure back again. The encased bird would not look like game, it is inside a knotted stocking and it would lose some of it's taste and maybe smell for the same reason.

Cutting snippets out of the nylon would let the dog become very gradually accustomed to the games taste and smell and more and more so to what it actually looks like while engaging in a fun game with it's handler, only pleasure - no corrections.

This nylon stocking idea is one commonly used in this country as a transition stage when moving from bucks or dummies as we call them onto game when training retrieves. I have simply tried to apply this to a blink situation for a pointing dog.
I am by no means an " All love and kindness" trainer ....... but for something like this I would try to be.

Bill T.

Linescreamer · Post by **Linescreamer** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:06 pm

Good discussion here guys. I can see merit in both approaches. In either case, the dog needs to get comfortable with birds. He can be trained to overcome his fear or he can be taught there is nothing to fear. From a pro trainer's point of view; Dashin suggestion is the route which is most efficient and likely not create more unwanted behaviors. This method also moves the dog forward in his training program and most likely will not create other issues. On the other hand, the dog needs to have a desire to find and retreive birds. 2 ways to skin a cat.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:49 pm

I feel sorry for the dog. Thanks Jonesy

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:21 pm

I must agree with Jonesy and his approach of what needs to be done to fix his blinking. I do not believe force fetch on a dog blinking birds is the right approach. Get the dog having fun with birds.
Birddog 307

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:25 pm

Linescreamer wrote:Good discussion here guys. I can see merit in both approaches. In either case, the dog needs to get comfortable with birds. He can be trained to overcome his fear or he can be taught there is nothing to fear. From a pro trainer's point of view; Dashin suggestion is the route which is most efficient and likely not create more unwanted behaviors. This method also moves the dog forward in his training program and most likely will not create other issues. On the other hand, the dog needs to have a desire to find and retreive birds. 2 ways to skin a cat.

Just a quick question concerning moving forward. Please be sure I'm not dissing any method or suggestions. I have no professional background and limited training background. So No offenese to linesreamer or dashin..OK?

Question is: How can you move a dog forward in his training if the foundation has eroded?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:51 pm

CHJIII wrote:
Linescreamer wrote:Good discussion here guys. I can see merit in both approaches. In either case, the dog needs to get comfortable with birds. He can be trained to overcome his fear or he can be taught there is nothing to fear. From a pro trainer's point of view; Dashin suggestion is the route which is most efficient and likely not create more unwanted behaviors. This method also moves the dog forward in his training program and most likely will not create other issues. On the other hand, the dog needs to have a desire to find and retreive birds. 2 ways to skin a cat.
Just a quick question concerning moving forward. Please be sure I'm not dissing any method or suggestions. I have no professional background and limited training background. So No offenese to linesreamer or dashin..OK?

Question is: How can you move a dog forward in his training if the foundation has eroded?

FF is an advanced part of training, but in this case it helps you come back to lay the foundation again. what happened to this dog? dog got corrected with a bird in his mouth. dog thinks the bird got him. now he's afraid of birds. by FF'ing you make the dog pick up the thing he fears. birds. pretty soon he learns "hey, these birds don't actually bite." next comes building the desire by shooting all those birds for him. (go back and read dashin's post.) just because someone does something different doesn't mean its wrong. dashin has already stated that he fixed 2 dogs with this method. it works. i know a way to cure blackhearted dogs, that if i told you guys here, you would think i'm crazy and there is no way this method would work, but i've helped do it. it works.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:03 am

I still go back to my post. Why would you point blank tell a guy who has had success doing something that he is - wrong? A wise man once told me that in training dogs there are countless ways to get it done. None of them are wrong and none are right. Chew on that a bit. Every dog and every trainer are different (good thing too, huh?). Different approaches and styles work differently.

I applaud this guy for thinking outside the box and coming up with a creative solution that obviously works.

This is a dicussion board, not bash board. :roll:

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:43 am

doscazadores wrote:A friend has a dog that was very severely corrected when the dog managed to get hold of a planted bird early on in the dog's training. As I understand it, second hand from my friend, the dog was really chewing on the bird and was nailed by way of the e-collar. The dog was a fast learner and really learned a lesson with that correction. He is now a dedicated blinker, but is still very interested in birds. I know how the problem started and like a lot of others am now interested in a solution. I've never been around a dog who blinked birds.
When I first saw the dog his interest in birds still showed when he saw them flush at a distance; he'd chase energetically. But when I held a pigeon near him to see if he would want it the response was, "heck no, get me away from that thing." Small wonder. I didn't push the issue. I walked 10-20 yards and let it fly. The dog watched it until it flew out of sight.
I have trained two good pointers and have helped with several others but I'm no expert by anyone's measure. For this problem I thought we'd limit a pigeon's flying ability with a string and piece of garden hose and just let it sight, chase, and catch the birds for as long as it takes him to lose his fear of being in close proximity to them, then start over again with the training . Does this seem a reasonable approach? Is there a better way? We don't want to give up on this dog.

To answer the question of allowing the dog to chase and catch birds I would not do this . For one thing the dog is trying to stay away from birds so it does not seem you could get him to do it any way. In the post you said the dog showed interest in birds that flushed at a distance. I would start with what I had to work with. Speciffically I would change the location that The training was done in the first place . Dogs are place oriented and will associate Many cues they get from there environment to make a correlation. I would take the dog to the field and work the dog on birds with no scent first. Run the dog on a check=cord and launch birds at a distance and let the dog chase just a little then slow the dog to a stop on the check-cord. As the dog builds his desire launch the birds closer. Only after the dog shows no apprehension for these birds at close range would I introduce the dog to the scent cone. Bring the dog into the cone with a crosswind, when the dog hits the scent launch the bird. I would build on this very slowly and would not allow the dog to catch any more birds . Once you get the dog actively hunting work it on steady to wing and shot. Once the dog is steady to wing and shot I would force fetch the dog to correct the mouthing problem. It sounds to me like the dog still has desire to hunt why not start with what you have. If you can go back to introduction to birds where the dog is allowed to play with a bird in your yard and the dog shows no apprehension in that environment I would try it. But If the dog shows signs of fear of the bird I would not try to force the issue.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:22 am

brad27 wrote:
CHJIII wrote:
Linescreamer wrote:Good discussion here guys. I can see merit in both approaches. In either case, the dog needs to get comfortable with birds. He can be trained to overcome his fear or he can be taught there is nothing to fear. From a pro trainer's point of view; Dashin suggestion is the route which is most efficient and likely not create more unwanted behaviors. This method also moves the dog forward in his training program and most likely will not create other issues. On the other hand, the dog needs to have a desire to find and retreive birds. 2 ways to skin a cat.
Just a quick question concerning moving forward. Please be sure I'm not dissing any method or suggestions. I have no professional background and limited training background. So No offenese to linesreamer or dashin..OK?

Question is: How can you move a dog forward in his training if the foundation has eroded?
FF is an advanced part of training, but in this case it helps you come back to lay the foundation again. what happened to this dog? dog got corrected with a bird in his mouth. dog thinks the bird got him. now he's afraid of birds. by FF'ing you make the dog pick up the thing he fears. birds. pretty soon he learns "hey, these birds don't actually bite." next comes building the desire by shooting all those birds for him. (go back and read dashin's post.) just because someone does something different doesn't mean its wrong. dashin has already stated that he fixed 2 dogs with this method. it works. i know a way to cure blackhearted dogs, that if i told you guys here, you would think i'm crazy and there is no way this method would work, but i've helped do it. it works.

Misunderstood is better sounding then blackhearted .. and it is a secret only to be divulged by the person who advised on it lol. A lot of dogs would be ruined if it were to get out