Cash's latest behavioral "problem"

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:29 am

I love this dog to death, but boy does he piss me of sometimes. Lately he has been running from me. Well, what he does is run up to me and then run oiff right before I can grab him. He does this over and over again. He knows he isn't supposed to do this. He rolls into a submissive position when I catch him. I guess he wont be going out without a checkcord for awhile. Any other suggestions on getting him to stop? It is a game for him, but a game that I don't want to play.

djswizz · Post by **djswizz** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:23 am

Your post made me laugh because Guinness does the exact same thing. He usually does this when he is in a playful mood and wants me to do something with him. I found that a long, exhausting walk or a brisk run for a half hour or more does the trick. Once I reduce his energy, he listens to me a lot better and doesn't want to play as much. This is your best bet. If you can't get him to listen to your commands, try an e-collar. This has worked tremendously with Guinness. It's imperative that Cash knows the command your giving him before you shock him.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Let me know if this works for you.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:29 am

I think what you described is called "being a puppy". Use your CC for a while but don't get too upset that a pup wants to be a pup. Remember when you were a teenager for that is where your pup is now. The E-collar is a great tool also but don't be too axious to use it. The pup should be 6 months or so before it is even considered.

Ezzy

shootist · Post by **shootist** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:55 am

I should have stated in my original post that Cash is 7 months old. I agree it is being a pup, but boy does it aggravate me. I think that is why he does it. He likes to pesture people.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:01 am

puppies are so much fun

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:54 am

My 6 month old is doing "the drive-by" too. I have her in an obedience class and they gave me a couple tricks to work with. When you call the dog to you, wait until they are almost there and then run backwards a few steps. Because you are moving, suddenly you are more exciting to the dog and the dog will drive in to you better. The other trick was to use some food in your hand. When you call the dog, have a treat in your hand and wiggle/wave it back and forth in front of you. This gives the dog a point to focus on while he runs towards you. When he gets there and is in front of you, touch his collar and give him the treat and then let him go. Lots of puppies associate getting told to come, with getting leashed up and having to go home and leave their fun behind. By getting them to come and then letting them resume playing, they stop making that connection and develop a more reliable come.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:29 am

The only thing I would add to Jobird's post is: DO NOT chase the pup to catch them, you will only be re-inforcing the behavior. When he comes, praise the "bleep" out of him. Usually, walking away and turning your back on them will bring them in.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:34 pm

Don't "grab" at him. When he comes up to you say "hello Cash" and
tell him to sit.

If you train some recalls on leash so he comes to you and sits and is then rewarded with "good boy" and then a treat and a pat he will be more than happy to come and sit for you. Make sure you call him and do this then release him to play, as many dogs figure out quickly that their owner calls them to put them on leash or away and what fun is there for the dog in that?

And sometimes it pays just to turn your back on the dog and walk off, th pup will soon decide that getting your attention he will have to do it your way.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:49 pm

With pointing breeds...I generally tell people that last command to teach them is Sit...only after all the bird work training is done

many times teaching to sit can lead to some problems in the field work specially if a pup get nervous or is trying to apease the owner or handler and resort to a submissive taught act which is sitting

JMHO

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:57 pm

Rubbish!

JMHO

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:08 am

Margaret.

Have you ever heard of "tact"?

Ezzy

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:28 am

For what it is worth I agree with Kninebirddog.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:53 pm

Shootist,

Next time he tries to get you to chase him, say nothing, turn and walk away. Keep walking. Watch what he does next, it may suprise you.

Or, when he is looking at you, trying to get you to chase him, drop something at your feet, he'll run over to see what it is. As he begins to come to you, say here. When he gets to you, get your hands on him and pet him.

Works for me.

Brad Higgins
www.gundogwhisperer.com

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:38 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Margaret.

Have you ever heard of "tact"?

Ezzy

Could have been a lot worse and I put a

in there.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:52 am

I agree with Knine as well, as do any of the pro trainers as I have talked to so far !!
It does seem get a varied opinion from message boards but the majority on the boards as well seem to agree not to teach sit early on to a pointing dog.
Two most important commands to teach a pointing dog IMHO is "here" and "whoa". Both could save a dogs life and with "whoa" you can have a dog stationary in the house while people enter or leave.
After these commands I like to teach "heel".

As for Cash running away from you, leave a drag line on him so you can just step on it and then enforce your recall command. Try to never give a command that you are not in a position to enforce! The pup will fast learn that he can get away with out listening if you can not enforce your commands. When he is ready introduce him to the e-collar and learn to overlay check cord commands with the e-collar. When used properly the e-collar is just a really long check cord and should not be used unless the dogs knows the command and it has been overlayed with the e-collar.

Good luck with Cash!!

Mav.....

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:23 pm

I would say that by far the majority of people who purchase a pup for hunting, will hunt weekends only, and maybe only a few times a season on a special arranged hunt. Most of us have to work. Some are lucky enough to live close to hunting areas and can go for a hunt after work, or take long periods off to go hunting...but would you all not say that by far the majority of us common old dog owners aren't so lucky?

And I would say that the majority of people who purchase a pup for hunting also have the pup as a companion, a family pet. Would you all say that this is fact?

So the fact of the matter is this; if you want a well behaved family companion that you can involve in your life as well as in those few months of the hunting season, then you need to teach that pup basic obedience early on. Said pup needs to know how to sit when told, come when called, walk at heel without pulling as well as the control around game that you will teach.

If said pup sits or lays down while you are "putting the pressure on" during training, then I say that whomever is training the dog needs to stop and think about their training methods. This goes for the pup owner and the paid to do it (I won't say professional because that sounds like someone actually qualified) dog trainer. Each dog is different, and training needs to be moulded around what the dog can handle, not fit the dog into the box training. So if the dog sits or lays down during a training exercise then for pity's sake adpat your training methods.
Teaching a dog to sit isn't the problem.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:36 pm

I work the same as everyone else here. If your dog will whoa and heel and come when called what else do you need.
Why even set yourself up for a potential problem. We didn't say don't ever teach sit, just that it should be about the last thing done after all the bird work is done.
I don't understand what difference it makes if you are a weekend hunter or a weekend trialer. We all like to have good looking dogs out there. Sitting on point is not something I want from my brittanys. My brittanys are very well behaved companions both in the house and in the field and sit has nothing to do with it. "Here", ""whoa" and heel !! teach these first and your dogs will have manners as well.

Mav....

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:49 pm

in a thread that is based on a puppy not recalling as the owner had thought it might do SIT has little if nothing to do with coming back.

I know Mrag mentioned it in her example of what she would do but to continue the discusion of SIT in this thread is not needed.

If you are trying to teach pup to come too you without prior showing him what it is you want than all you have is confusion.

If pup came to you with out the use of a lead pup did it cause he wanted too. Now you need to teach him he has to cause you told him too.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:00 pm

For what its worth Casper I agree, and I did address the recall issue in my first reply. I am guessing the Marg is a firm beleaver in sit and I am not for youngsters. But to address someones opinion as "Rubbish" is uncalled for especially when so many people agree with the do not teach sit theory. JMHO, nuff said.
Good luck with Cash, let us know how his training is going, especially the recall.

Mav.....

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:07 am

Rubbish!

And I wasn't the one brought up "sit" either and I consider I am as entitled to reply with an opinion as anyone.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:10 am

Good come back with the "Rubbish" comment.
Must have taken a while to come up with that well thought out answer!
Good for you.

Mav....

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:50 pm

My best field trial dog - was never taught sit - still doesn't know that command and is a very pleasant dog in the house and wherever. He knows whoa, heel and here, and works fine for me.

Dogs that are taught sit will revert to that submissive position when check cording them into birds and -it is a pain to work around them to get them to stop - at isn't 1, or 10 dogs - that is over 100 dogs. It is a problem that needs to be solved later in the majority of cases so, save yourself some time - don't teach it.

Unless of course it happens to be a spaniel or retriever - then "sit" away.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:06 pm

Wa Chukar Hunter wrote:Dogs that are taught sit will revert to that submissive position when check cording them into birds and -it is a pain to work around them to get them to stop - at isn't 1, or 10 dogs - that is over 100 dogs. It is a problem that needs to be solved later in the majority of cases so, save yourself some time - don't teach it.

Unless of course it happens to be a spaniel or retriever - then "sit" away.

yep I can always tell when a person brings their dog to us if they have taught it to sit....95% of the time it takes more yardwork training to get them out of it before you get them in the field to instill the whoa ?stop with out sitting or coming back to you and sitting next to you when check cording work
The command lead helps alot in this situation but it always make more work and should a dog be more submissive it can become a real pain as when they get nervous they start to figure out ways to appease the handler instead of keeping their mind forward....So I truely prefer with pointing breeds whoa first then here
I have had the best time with the Silent Command system...since switching over to this opposed to other methods which the door is open but not the primary method if not needed Has worked out the best and the most consistancy with most dogs.also helping to get over many owner trained issues.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:25 pm

I think the problem is some of you paint yourselves into a box with our training.
You cannot think outside the lines.

You carry on pushing your no sit, no heel, no drop field trial training and I'll carry on pushing my companion hunting dog training

Incorrect training method? Puppy taught to sit and stay.
One benefit is cute pic's.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:37 pm

I am not painting anything into a box, What I am trying to do is prevent problems early on in the training cycle. Where did you get no heel from. In every post I have made I have said to teach "here", "whoa" and "heel".
My dogs also are companions, both in the field and in the home. So you think inside your small box and I will continue to beleave and advise people, especially newbies not to teach sit early on to puppies as I beleave as do MANY others that is can cause problems early. It may not every time but why tempt fate.
See the pics below. It is amazing how beautiful a dog whoa'd will stay and have his or her picture taken, over and over again.
Makes for some amazing pictures!!!

Mav.....

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:14 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: This thread has run off onto a tangent and needs to stop.

The topic was a recall issue not a stationary issue

Everyone want to help the newbies out but if you cannot stay on topic than all you are doing is creating confusion for both owner and dog

If you want to continue the debate of sit start another thread or dig up a past thread.

now I feal like I am being a moderator :roll:

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:41 pm

I agree Casper, and to anybody I have confused I appologize. I am just not used to being told my view is rubbish with out the thought being backed up, or being told that I can not think outside a box.

I have said all that I need to say about not training sit early on. I hope I also answered the recall question that was posed originally well enough to help.

Mav......

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Yes you are Casper and a darn good moderator at that. I echo everything that has been said. Get it back on subject and stop the rudeness of disputing another persons experience with crude remarks. A civil discussion of view points is one thing but to post your disrepect of another persons experience with those remarks is uncalled for.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:42 pm

WELL EXCUSE ME !!

Please tell me where I made any CRUDE remarks, and I am the one whose post was disputed because I put "sit" in a sentence.

Please get your facts right before you start your personal attacks.

My original post:

Don't "grab" at him. When he comes up to you say "hello Cash" and
tell him to sit.

If you train some recalls on leash so he comes to you and sits and is then rewarded with "good boy" and then a treat and a pat he will be more than happy to come and sit for you. Make sure you call him and do this then release him to play, as many dogs figure out quickly that their owner calls them to put them on leash or away and what fun is there for the dog in that?

And sometimes it pays just to turn your back on the dog and walk off, th pup will soon decide that getting your attention he will have to do it your way

And for this post there is a discourse on not having your dog sit!
And I print "rubbish" with laughing faces and now I'm told I print crude and disrespectful posts?
Get real

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