Whoa Breaking

[NVgsp]

Just wanted to see what others have used to completely whoa break your dog. what i am interested in, is steps taken after the dog knows the command off the table, barrel, whoa post etc...basically, i can walk with the dog and command whoa and he/she stops immediatley. we talk about added distractions but what drills do some of you do to inhance the training.

Using the Hickox method, i just recently started using a place board with my oldest gsp and once the dog was on it command "whoa", i would bring about a 4' PVC pipe with about 4' of string attached to the leg of a pigeon and to the end of the pvc. naturally the dog sight points it, but what i am looking for, is for her to stand that bird. i have control of the dog with a pinch collar and ecollar, but i also have control of the pigeon. great drill. if the dog comes off, pull back on the pinch collar and stimulation comes on. have done this drill the past two nights and have seen her become more reliable with her steadiness. eventually i want to be able to have that bird walk all around the dog and not have her move a muscle.

has anyone else tried something like this? if not what other methods have you tried to make your dog reliable staunch on her whoa.

[snips]

I do not use this drill, but I know of several people that do use it, and it seems they have flagging issues. I don`t like overdoing birds and handlng the dog, JMO.

[Wagonmaster]

i agree with snips, i tried the hickox board and did not get flagging, because i did not use a bird while the dog was on the board. but you could see things were headed in that direction. the hickox recommendation, if it is the one I am thinking about, is to make the ground off the place board hot, that is, to stimulate the dog any time it steps off the board. now, hickox recommended using the lowest setting that would get any reaction from the dog. pretty low. but for me, that whole set up smacks of too much obedience work around birds, and too much negative stimulation with the collar. too much obedience work and negative stimulation around birds will always erode style, and in fact can make a dog an "obedience pointer," a little like a tagger, this is a dog that constantly looks to or relies on the handler for cues to determine whether it is alright to find and point a bird. you want a dog that will go find them for you, not point the one you planted and have ok'd him to point.

here is what i would suggest. get the pigeon out of there for now. get the dog so that it thoroughly understands what whoa means on the board, then remove the board and do exercises similar to what you were doing on the board, so the dog knows whoa as an obedience task, on the ground, anywhere. but don't bring any birds into the picture at this stage.

once you have done the yardwork, that is taught the whoa command to the dog, then progress to the field. plant birds. leave the ecollar behind, off the dog. use a check cord to make sure the dog points, and reinforce with the whoa command the dog now knows. that would be the next step, and I think you are a few weeks away from more questions if you do this.

if you intend to eventually have a dog that is really broke, whether for trials or for hunting, eventually you may want to bring in some "pigeon on a pole" exercises, but doing them at an early stage, before you get the dog at least green broke in the field, always seems to lead to overwork, and flagging and intensity issues.

[NVgsp]

its funny that the two of you mentioned flagging because i just started to see her flag. i wasnt sure what was causing it but, it has definately become aparent. i took a step back and but her on a whoa and dragged a frozen pigeon in front and all around her and she was able to hold with only slight corrections with the pinch collar. it is a less stressful resolution, but i think i might take several steps back in her training and get her intensity back and eliminate the flagging issue.
WagonM. i think you nailed it with eliminating bird work for the time being until she gets back up to speed. she knows what she is supposed to do, but i think she has gotten a little sloppy and needs some work in her whoa training.

[Wagonmaster]

i would not do frozen pigeons anymore either. you are teaching her not to take birds seriously. I would finish whoa obedience in the yard, then get on with check cord/planted bird work in the field, and maybe shoot some birds for her. i hate to say it, but i think you are on the verge of creating a flagging problem with carcasses and shackles and such. gotta buzz the dog up a little.

[snips]

John, we are definetly on the same pg here. I don`t even like using the E when training Whoa. Whoa does not have to be that involved to teach a dog to stand still. I think all the gimmicks are totally unneccisary. The prime reason, IMO, to involve gimmicks is trying to rush something, or force something that is better off taught back to basics. Boards, pulleys, e collars, tree limbs, barrels, on and on and on.....just to teach a dog to stand still. Might help to go back to basic common sence. I read a book by Raffe that I was just shocked and humored to see the length he went to to teach a dog to stand still, same with a Whoa post. Guess thats why I don`t read much. Sorry for the tangent, I know there are many ways to skin a cat... :roll:

[NVgsp]

Brenda-
the Rafe book is the exact drill i have been using...with much success with my younger gsp, but i tried my older dog with some of the drills and was able to make quite a few corrections. it is a very thurough method and pretty much leaves no stone unturned. i went to one of his seminars and although he is a bit psychological in nature, there seemed to be a method to the maddness. i dont necessarily agree with everything he does but a lot of it makes sence. granted with my younger pup, i havent followed it step for step, but the majority of drills i have used and have been very pleased with the results.

i dont train with any pros and i do all my training primarily by myself so you can say i am learning as i go. the thing i like about Rafe's method is his bridging of the "whoa" command with that of a bird...so eventually you eliminate the word "whoa" becuase the bird is now the que for whoa. his manual is pretty indepth, but it is easy to follow. i am a step by step guy so this manual appealed to me.

i guess, you are right, everyone has there own angle at the same goal...as long as it works and you can have a successful relationship and hunting partner with your four legged pal.

[Casper]

FWIW,

The whoa post is not so much as to teach a dog to stand still but it gives the point of contact to put an e-collar on the flank to have breaks on the dog. These breaks aid in STW&S. Its hard to stop a dog chasing a bird that is a long ways off with a pinch collar or a board.

BUT without proper instruction the post will not do what its intention is. This makes it difficult on the dog and owner.

[snips]

I am not saying it does not work, probably all of these methods will work if done the right way or done enough. I am just saying, is all this stuff really neccisary to teach a dog to stand still???

[AHGSP]

I prefer the K.I.S.S. Method for all of my training. Between the dog and I, I'm S.tupid, so I have to K.eep I.t S.imple!:lol: I do ues a table to teach Whoa, Come and Heel all in one series of repititions, but as soon as they get the basics of what I want with those 3 commands, the table goes away. As I use the table though, I will carry those commands to the ground when I have them Come down off the table and Heel them to walk out the drive with them. As I walk out the drive, I'll Whoa them, try to get them to move and set them back if they do and then I'll walk them back up on the table and repeat. Like I said though, once they get the jest, the table goes away. I also always try to keep the Obedience work completely seperate from the bird work until necessary and don't even train for them in the same area. Obedience in the front yard, birds at the farm. Don't overdo the Obedience, it's gotta be fun and praise them when they do it right.

From the peanut gallery

[Casper]

is all this stuff really neccisary to teach a dog to stand still???

I would think so. If you have a conditioned response this will help when introducing new areas, new situations and even birds. One of my dogs learned to stand still while he watched the others eat. But even though he knew whoa ment stand still while others ate whoa ment nothing anywhere else. Anything that can possibly aleaviate a potential problem or situation will help you and pup be more successfull. JMO, FWIW

[volraider]

Casper,

You have the Smith method down pat. Delmar and his boys have broke a lot of dogs so there's no way I can say anything bad about their method but I will so there is a easier way. Check out the West/Gibbons method if you want a method that makes sense and is easy to train. With the West Method, like Brenda's, you can throw all the posts and stuff away and just let the birds train the dog. With most other methods you yard train then you go to the field and train the same thing over again, with the West method it's all done around birds but not on birds.

If you are more interested email me at volraider@copper.net and I will tell you more.

Brian

[Casper]

Regardless of who a person follows for their training if it does not become fullproof in the yard than in a field and other fields and the local park and down town and anywhere else you might take a dog you cannot expect results.

I find anyway to get a dog to comply is a good way as long as it requires the least amount of pressure. I use the post, but when properly done the dog is only on the post for only a couple weeks (depending on the dog). all the post does is develope a point of contact. Again done in several locations the dog learns it has to give in no matter where they are. Than you throw out the post because you have moved on to the e-collar and you now have "brakes". You can now ask your dog to stop anywhere any time.

So when you need to have your dog stand still for any application you accomplished it wiht all that useless crap.

Asking a dog to stand still that wants to move foward is a daunting task that takes "stuff" to get the "still" part down.

Ask a retriever trainer or better yet an ameture that has only trained a few dogs and ask them how difficult it is to get a hard charging dog to stop its chase and "sit" because you dont want him fetching that bird but the one over yonder.

Allot goes into dog training and there are many ways to get something accomplished and only some of the ways from yester year I would not advise.

FWIW