AKC HT Judge question
AKC HT Judge question
You're judging JH. Handler comes to the line asking if he can carry a broke-open shotgun with him when he runs his dog. He has a blank gun; he isn't going to use the shotgun, he just wants to carry it.
Do you let him?
If not, why not?
Do you let him?
If not, why not?
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Sure. I think it should be required. A handler following a bird with a shotgun can't block his dog very well while following a bird. I don't remember all the rules very well any more. Is it required in SH and MH? Should be.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: AKC HT Judge question
It's required for MH. Im not a judge but would allow it because they require it at the later stages. Might also remind the dog to hunt and why they are out there.
Re: AKC HT Judge question
We would have a chat about "why" he thinks he needs it. I once had a MH handler come to the line with a Crossman 77 bb gun. I asked him to shake it...the bb's rattled inside. Told him to go find another carry piece.
Dan
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Obviously, this was a real situation. I think the reasoning was that the dog had been shot over every time it had been in the field, so the absence of a shotgun might have caused the dog to wonder why it was out there, basically.Wyndancer wrote:We would have a chat about "why" he thinks he needs it. I once had a MH handler come to the line with a Crossman 77 bb gun. I asked him to shake it...the bb's rattled inside. Told him to go find another carry piece.
I was judging, I didn't object to it, and here's why.
First - a hunt test is theoretically supposed to mimic an authentic hunting situation. The handler holding a gun could only help towards that end.
Second - the only reason to disallow them would be if they were considered a training aid. It would not make sense to me to consider them a training aid for JH - but a requirement for the highest testing level, MH. A training aid is a training aid. If it's not considered a training aid for MH, how can it be considered one for JH?
Some folks disagreed with the decision. I didn't see it as a big deal. The dog was still going to have to hunt, find and point birds. As long as it did that, for all I cared, the handler could've worn a clown suit if he thought it would help.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I'd say good call. The BB gun was loaded. One of the unsavory things about judging any format is that as a judge you either make the event creditable of you turn it into a joke. Takes a lot of gut's to make some calls cause you know when you do it your gonna get slamed by some of the people.Wyndancer wrote:We would have a chat about "why" he thinks he needs it. I once had a MH handler come to the line with a Crossman 77 bb gun. I asked him to shake it...the bb's rattled inside. Told him to go find another carry piece.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
- RoostersMom
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 1754
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
- Location: North Central Missouri
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Not to hijack, but since you're already on the topic of HT judge questions, I have another question for AKC HT judges out there:
I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?
Thanks in advance - I'm headed to KS this weekend for a double test and just didn't want to goof up by bringing my o/u (which I have used at the two times I've run him so far without incident).
I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?
Thanks in advance - I'm headed to KS this weekend for a double test and just didn't want to goof up by bringing my o/u (which I have used at the two times I've run him so far without incident).
Re: AKC HT Judge question
It is quite "legal" to carry a wooden shotgun, as it is legal to carry a SxS or OxU. I do know that "some" have overlayed the sound of a OxU, being sharply snapped closed, with some electricity. The requirement to have a "shotgun" is that in MH the handler is supposed to shoulder the gun and simulate the gunning of the bird. This is meant to prevent the handler from "looking down" the dog, or block the dog.RoostersMom wrote:Not to hijack, but since you're already on the topic of HT judge questions, I have another question for AKC HT judges out there:
I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?
Dan
Re: AKC HT Judge question
You absolutely can carry a break-action shotgun in MH. They also recently started allowing fake guns as well. The rules about what a MH handler can carry do not differentiate between break-action and automatic.
If either is called into question, I would expect it to be the auto, as the AKC already doesn't allow their use in gunning situations for safety reasons.
If either is called into question, I would expect it to be the auto, as the AKC already doesn't allow their use in gunning situations for safety reasons.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I know 2 people who train their dogs to "whoa" to a shotgun closing. I should make them carry a semi or fake.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Actually, guns to be used in hunting tests must be double barrel, so by definition, break down. Semi-automatics are prohibited in hunting tests. Whoever told you that your gun had to be a semi-auto was wrong.
Re: AKC HT Judge question
And let's not have my thread get too hijacked. I would like to hear more feedback on the original topic if anyone's got any.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
So what.I know 2 people who train their dogs to "whoa" to a shotgun closing. I should make them carry a semi or fake.
I know many people who train their dog not to move when a bird moves.
Should we use fake birds?
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Most folks I know overlay the whoa command to the sound of the gun going off. Guess we need to quit shooting over the dogs.
I would let them carry the shottie in JH. Since it is required in MH there is no possible way to construe it as a training aid.
I would let them carry the shottie in JH. Since it is required in MH there is no possible way to construe it as a training aid.
- RoostersMom
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 1754
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
- Location: North Central Missouri
Re: AKC HT Judge question
phermes1 wrote:And let's not have my thread get too hijacked. I would like to hear more feedback on the original topic if anyone's got any.
Sorry Phermes.
I'm not a judge, but I think it would be fine to let them carry a gun. My sis is running her dogs for the first time ever this weekend and she's glad she won't have to deal with a cap gun and a shotgun both. She's a wee bit nervous. And she's talked me nephew into coming and running his puppy too. Should be a fun time!
- Greg Jennings
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 5743
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:59 am
- Location: Springboro, OH
Re: AKC HT Judge question
The people/person Buckeye_V mentioned SLAMS the O/U closed. There is nothing realistic about it. Also, if done with the force that I've observed when out hunting, it would, IMHO, be a safety concern. I've seen enough rifles and shotguns slam fire. With a lot of designs, all it takes is some trash in the wrong place in the trigger.
So, the situation isn't realistic. It has nothing to do with real hunting. So, the arguments about shooting birds, etc, don't have anything to do with the situation that Buckeye_V is talking about.
So, the situation isn't realistic. It has nothing to do with real hunting. So, the arguments about shooting birds, etc, don't have anything to do with the situation that Buckeye_V is talking about.
FC Snips Spot-On Shooter SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3149
Re: AKC HT Judge question
No problem at all.RoostersMom wrote:
Sorry Phermes.
I'm not a judge, but I think it would be fine to let them carry a gun. My sis is running her dogs for the first time ever this weekend and she's glad she won't have to deal with a cap gun and a shotgun both. She's a wee bit nervous. And she's talked me nephew into coming and running his puppy too. Should be a fun time!
I'm just interested in different opinions. When I was asked, I could think of nothing that would make me say no, so I was a bit surprised when people actually questioned it.
Other points raised have been if it was a safety issue; ie, did we check to see if the gun was unloaded. Um, ok, seriously - yes we did, and if it's a safety issue in JH, it's a safety issue in MH, where it's already required. The gun was broken and on his shoulder the entire time. Safety wasn't an issue.
Also - rules state that only blank pistols may be used in JH. OK, fair enough. However - he wasn't using the shotgun, only carrying it. He had a blank pistol that he used for his finds. The purpose of that rule goes back to safety concerns, to prevent people from firing live firearms over their dogs. So again, no issue there.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
See no problems with it Paul. I would have let it happen as well as long as they could prove it was empty and they had no ammo on them.
Keep on keepin on.
Keep on keepin on.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
- CherrystoneWeims
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1289
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:22 pm
- Location: S. Carolina
Re: AKC HT Judge question
AKC regulations clearly PROHIBIT the handler carrying anything but a blank pistol in any level but MH. I've been told the story of this and in my opinion the shotgun was used as a training tool which is also prohibited.
AKC also prohibits the usage of anything but a break gun (unless it is a cut out/toy gun) for both gunners and handlers of MH dogs. This is for safety sake.
I'm an AKC HT judge and would not have allowed it to be carried.
AKC also prohibits the usage of anything but a break gun (unless it is a cut out/toy gun) for both gunners and handlers of MH dogs. This is for safety sake.
I'm an AKC HT judge and would not have allowed it to be carried.
Pam
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Explain how it is anymore a training tool than a whistle is?CherrystoneWeims wrote:AKC regulations clearly PROHIBIT the handler carrying anything but a blank pistol in any level but MH. I've been told the story of this and in my opinion the shotgun was used as a training tool which is also prohibited.
AKC also prohibits the usage of anything but a break gun (unless it is a cut out/toy gun) for both gunners and handlers of MH dogs. This is for safety sake.
I'm an AKC HT judge and would not have allowed it to be carried.
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- CherrystoneWeims
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1289
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:22 pm
- Location: S. Carolina
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Easy, PM sent to you. There's more to this.
Paul, I believe the handler made a comment to you as to why he carries the shotgun?
Paul, I believe the handler made a comment to you as to why he carries the shotgun?
Pam
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I was unable to find anything in my Hunt Test rule book that clearly PROHIBITED the JH or SH handler from carrying a shotgun. It does say that only a blank pistol may be used, but it doesn't say that a shotgun couldn't be carried.CherrystoneWeims wrote:AKC regulations clearly PROHIBIT the handler carrying anything but a blank pistol in any level but MH. I've been told the story of this and in my opinion the shotgun was used as a training tool which is also prohibited.
IMO, I could care less whether the handler used the shotgun as a training aid. As long as the gun was carried and handled as if it was loaded with live ammo, I'm okay with it.
Soggy Bottom Kennels
Home of:
Soggy Bottom's Dapper Dan
Belly Acres Whinehard
Soggy Bottom's Juicy Butte
Soggy Bottom's Bonafide
Soggy Bottom's Col. Angus
Home of:
Soggy Bottom's Dapper Dan
Belly Acres Whinehard
Soggy Bottom's Juicy Butte
Soggy Bottom's Bonafide
Soggy Bottom's Col. Angus
Re: AKC HT Judge question
And I answered that question in an earlier post. The handler shot over his dog every time he took it out - shame on him, taking his dog hunting, right? :roll: - so he was unsure if the dog would recognize it as hunting without a gun present.CherrystoneWeims wrote:Easy, PM sent to you. There's more to this.
Paul, I believe the handler made a comment to you as to why he carries the shotgun?
And actually, there is NOT more to this. All information has been shared, by 1 of exactly 3 people that were actually there and know what transpired.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Funny how that works, huh Paul?
I swan.
I swan.
We have done something with nothing for so long we are now qualified to do everything with anything....
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=275
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=520
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I'm just floored that there was a Vizsla owner that actually judges... jk. Red dog people are usually nice and helpful.
Who cares about the shotgun. I'm more worried about a dog that runs quarreling the field 30-45 Yds out like a lab.. now how do three dogs get a pass... or the ones that scream whoa when the dogs on point in JH or SH. Makes you scratch your head and feel sorry for the dog.
Who cares about the shotgun. I'm more worried about a dog that runs quarreling the field 30-45 Yds out like a lab.. now how do three dogs get a pass... or the ones that scream whoa when the dogs on point in JH or SH. Makes you scratch your head and feel sorry for the dog.
- CherrystoneWeims
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1289
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:22 pm
- Location: S. Carolina
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Section 7 page 16 of the AKC pointing breeds hunt test regulations states that only blank pistols can be used in JH tests.
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTPNT.pdf
The AKC rep, Gary Sadler, was also asked about this and he stated the same rule.
The Weimaraner handler stated to others that the presence of the shotgun makes his dog hunt harder.........I believe that this qualifies the shotgun as being used as a training tool.
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTPNT.pdf
The AKC rep, Gary Sadler, was also asked about this and he stated the same rule.
The Weimaraner handler stated to others that the presence of the shotgun makes his dog hunt harder.........I believe that this qualifies the shotgun as being used as a training tool.
Pam
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
- CherrystoneWeims
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1289
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:22 pm
- Location: S. Carolina
Re: AKC HT Judge question
A break gun is allowed but a semi-auto is not allowed by either the official gunners or the handlers.RoostersMom wrote:Not to hijack, but since you're already on the topic of HT judge questions, I have another question for AKC HT judges out there:
I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?
Thanks in advance - I'm headed to KS this weekend for a double test and just didn't want to goof up by bringing my o/u (which I have used at the two times I've run him so far without incident).
Pam
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH
Re: AKC HT Judge question
The response I saw from Gary, forwarded after the fact, was a one word answer of no. Either way, I disagree with him. IMO, that's the opinion of one person, not the AKC. I could probably go talk to different AKC rep and get the answer I was looking for, too. At BEST, the rulebook is not clear on this issue. It states 'used' - not 'possess' or 'carry'.The AKC rep, Gary Sadler, was also asked about this and he stated the same rule.
The HT rules also state that the *use* of cell phones is not allowed. So if I forget to take my phone out of my pocket, am I disqualified? If 'possess' equals 'use', as the first definition apparently indicates, I would be.
OK. My dogs are trained on the whistle to move forward. Does that make it a training aid and thus not allowed?The Weimaraner handler stated to others that the presence of the shotgun makes his dog hunt harder.........I believe that this qualifies the shotgun as being used as a training tool.
I'd also like to understand how it's a training aid in JH but not MH.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I'm with phermes1 on this one, and I'm still looking for the AKC rule that clearly PROHIBITS JH handlers from carrying a shotgun...
Soggy Bottom Kennels
Home of:
Soggy Bottom's Dapper Dan
Belly Acres Whinehard
Soggy Bottom's Juicy Butte
Soggy Bottom's Bonafide
Soggy Bottom's Col. Angus
Home of:
Soggy Bottom's Dapper Dan
Belly Acres Whinehard
Soggy Bottom's Juicy Butte
Soggy Bottom's Bonafide
Soggy Bottom's Col. Angus
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: AKC HT Judge question
The term "use" is very different than "possession of, or carry" .
What are they going to do? Maybe erase a JH pass? Ban the guy? Fire the judge? Seems like some people are made that someone used the practical approach to the situation. It's not pike someone was allowed and someone else wasn't.
What are they going to do? Maybe erase a JH pass? Ban the guy? Fire the judge? Seems like some people are made that someone used the practical approach to the situation. It's not pike someone was allowed and someone else wasn't.
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Too many times, in all venues, we get hung up on man made rules instead of how a good bird dog works. Are we judging the trainer or the dog and if it is the dog why do we care how it was trained? I really thought we were supposed to be showing a good dog, with outstanding abilities, that is well trained. If this is not the case, have we lost our way somewhere?
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: AKC HT Judge question
You haven't handled any MH dogs have you. I have been told to "sing" to my dog because the judge thought for some odd reason it would pull her back in... boy was he wrong. Dog was in the bird field 15 minutes before the dog that was healing it handler made it.ezzy333 wrote:Too many times, in all venues, we get hung up on man made rules instead of how a good bird dog works. Are we judging the trainer or the dog and if it is the dog why do we care how it was trained? I really thought we were supposed to be showing a good dog, with outstanding abilities, that is well trained. If this is not the case, have we lost our way somewhere?
Ezzy
What's a better dog? One you have to command to work cover or one that does it naturally? The dog that handles shouldnt need to be hacked. I think a lot of judges are confused and encourage the whistle blasting fat chick approach to bullying a dog around the course by giving it high scores.
Before everyone thanks I'm bashing hunt tests I'm not. I do them myself.
Re: AKC HT Judge question
None of the above, I think. The dog didn't pass, and nothing was brought to the event committee.ultracarry wrote:The term "use" is very different than "possession of, or carry" .
What are they going to do? Maybe erase a JH pass? Ban the guy? Fire the judge? Seems like some people are made that someone used the practical approach to the situation. It's not pike someone was allowed and someone else wasn't.
The only purpose of this thread is that I wanted to see where my opinion stood in relation to others. Contrary to popular belief, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know about it.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
- Crestonegsp
- Rank: Master Hunter
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:21 pm
- Location: Colorado
Re: AKC HT Judge question
If he has shot over the dog every time he is in the field my first question is who shoots every bird for a dog? Second if he is only going to carry it and not shoulder why does he need it at all? I would not let him carry it but because there is no need in a JR Hunter, they do not need to be steady to wing and shot. No need to carry a shotgun in a junior, who wants to lug one around in the filed if you are not going to use it.
I have seen a few little tricks, like Wyndancer said the BB gun with BBs in it, a little shake does the trick. A short tab hanging off the collar. The bell on the collar has always bothered me ever since a guy told me he would only put a bell on his dog if it was also wearing an ecollar. Closing the shotgun right next to the dog. A tracking collar up tight around the dogs head. Buckel up/down collars put on tight. And the list goes on and on.
No need to carry the shotgun in a Jr Hunter.
I have seen a few little tricks, like Wyndancer said the BB gun with BBs in it, a little shake does the trick. A short tab hanging off the collar. The bell on the collar has always bothered me ever since a guy told me he would only put a bell on his dog if it was also wearing an ecollar. Closing the shotgun right next to the dog. A tracking collar up tight around the dogs head. Buckel up/down collars put on tight. And the list goes on and on.
No need to carry the shotgun in a Jr Hunter.
Dan Schoenfelder
CH/FC PVR's Rugerheim Smokin' Liberty
CH/RUCH PVR's Rugerheim Double Shot
PVR N' Rugerheim Vendetta Ride
Rugerheim's Final Frontier
CH/FC PVR's Rugerheim Smokin' Liberty
CH/RUCH PVR's Rugerheim Double Shot
PVR N' Rugerheim Vendetta Ride
Rugerheim's Final Frontier
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Like I said earlier. We'd be having a conversation on why the handler thought he needed it. Not saying I wouldn't allow it. How about a carry shotgun in SH?Crestonegsp wrote:If he has shot over the dog every time he is in the field my first question is who shoots every bird for a dog? Second if he is only going to carry it and not shoulder why does he need it at all? I would not let him carry it but because there is no need in a JR Hunter, they do not need to be steady to wing and shot. No need to carry a shotgun in a junior, who wants to lug one around in the filed if you are not going to use it.
I have seen a few little tricks, like Wyndancer said the BB gun with BBs in it, a little shake does the trick. A short tab hanging off the collar. The bell on the collar has always bothered me ever since a guy told me he would only put a bell on his dog if it was also wearing an ecollar. Closing the shotgun right next to the dog. A tracking collar up tight around the dogs head. Buckel up/down collars put on tight. And the list goes on and on.
No need to carry the shotgun in a Jr Hunter.
Anyway, I seen plenty of tricks, and I'm sure I've missed plenty of tricks as well. I did have to caution a MH handler about his watering technique...see, he like to call the dog in, in the bird field, get down on one knee and give the dog a ear pinch....with his back to the judges...every time. Did I get a clear look..enough to toss him? Nope, but I darn sure well know what was going on.
Dan
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Nope.phermes1 wrote:You're judging JH. Handler comes to the line asking if he can carry a broke-open shotgun with him when he runs his dog. He has a blank gun; he isn't going to use the shotgun, he just wants to carry it.
Do you let him?
If not, why not?
To even ask you'd know he has some kind of motivation to carry it, and common sense would tell you that it has something to do with the dog. That would make it a training aid. In my mind not different from a handler coming to the line carrying a flushing whip or wanting to carry a folded lead. Handlers with special requests always have a reason for them IME.
As it comes out in this thread the guy thought the dog needed the gun as a kind of motivation or cue to hunt. Any dog entered in junior hunter that needs motivation to hunt needs a little more exposure to the testing process, or a different venue entirely :roll:
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Ok, thank you. Fair enough. If someone thought it was off-base, I want to hear the reasoning, not a 'just because, that's why'.
Not that I agree with you, of course.
Not that I agree with you, of course.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
- nikegundog
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 1508
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:21 am
- Location: SW Minnesota
Re: AKC HT Judge question
shags wrote:Nope.
To even ask you'd know he has some kind of motivation to carry it, and common sense would tell you that it has something to do with the dog. That would make it a training aid. In my mind not different from a handler coming to the line carrying a flushing whip or wanting to carry a folded lead. Handlers with special requests always have a reason for them IME.
As it comes out in this thread the guy thought the dog needed the gun as a kind of motivation or cue to hunt. Any dog entered in junior hunter that needs motivation to hunt needs a little more exposure to the testing process, or a different venue entirely :roll:
I've never hunt tested a dog, but a couple questions come to mind. The way this is coming across sounds like you guys think think this person is trying to intimidate the dog with the gun, is this the case? As someone who hunts and trains his dog daily, I don't see this as the case at all. My dog gets excited everyday we train, my dog goes completely nuts every time he sees me remove a shotgun from the gun cabinet, the level of excitement goes up 10x. Isn't that the point of the HT to test the dog in a hunting situation? If I walk were to walk to the line with a gun shouldered my dog would have an increased level of excitement and not be intimidated by the gun. I always thought that the point of JH was to get people and dogs involved in hunt testing and hoping they will continue to advance to higher levels, how is this hurting anyone? It is a test, not a competition right?Crestonegsp wrote:If he has shot over the dog every time he is in the field my first question is who shoots every bird for a dog? Second if he is only going to carry it and not shoulder why does he need it at all? I would not let him carry it but because there is no need in a JR Hunter, they do not need to be steady to wing and shot. No need to carry a shotgun in a junior, who wants to lug one around in the filed if you are not going to use it.
- ultracarry
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2602
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Yucaipa, ca
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Nike I have to agree.
People make a big deal out of everything and usually there are no problems until someone thinks they are wronged and want to be a squeaky wheel. It's supposed to be about hunting dogs and having fun but some people need drama.
People make a big deal out of everything and usually there are no problems until someone thinks they are wronged and want to be a squeaky wheel. It's supposed to be about hunting dogs and having fun but some people need drama.
- Cajun Casey
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4243
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
- Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Actually, it's about rules and this incident is subject to interpretation. Can't say I see a clear prohibition, but I don't see a reason for the handler to carry, either. I'm sure it will land on a desk in PE before too long and result, eventually, in yet another rule.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
- original mngsp
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1232
- Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:24 pm
- Location: Mandan, ND
Re: AKC HT Judge question
Its a gray are of the AKC rule book. Unless its something that is blatantly dangerous or absolutely against the spirit of the sport or the event, it's a judgement call to be made by the people in charge of the course, the judges. Way to often everybody gets their undies in a bunch over the rules and we all end up spending and wasting a bunch of time and energy to what really doesnt end up being of much concern.The only purpose of this thread is that I wanted to see where my opinion stood in relation to others. Contrary to popular belief, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know about it.
I would wonder why the desire to carry a shotgun in a JH test, but if no harm done and it didnt create a safety hazard, have at it.
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I guess that's where this part of the rules come in
Tests are not mechanical. Judges will have to make interpretations based on their dog knowledge and the requirements of the tests. Situations will occur that are not specifically covered in the Regulations. In these instances, the Judges make their own interpretation based upon their experience to arrive at fair decisions.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
- Ruffshooter
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 2946
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 pm
- Location: Maine
Re: AKC HT Judge question
I had a MH brace mate handler that carried a plywood cut out of a gun. Judges did not care as long as he pointed it. many times the closing of a break open gun is just like saying whoa to a dog.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick