Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

[Birddogz]

My pro breaks,runs,& conditions his dogs in Ohio & he wins very very often!! Fact is he just won the GSPCA NFC went to Wye Island Maryland & won the AA Phez Ch.for the 3rd yr in a row plus had RU & won the Derby & another dog he trains went 2nd in the Biggest Amt stake ever ran there.Not bad for an Ohio man huh that has NO BIRDS.

I have lived in Ohio. Born and raised. ND is a thousand times better. How many wild birds did those dogs point? Maryland pheasants? I bet those are some wild birds.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Your the one that brought up the pros going west to get into wild birds to make better dogs.I just stated facts that my pro does not go & he beats all the pros that do on a regular bases,so your theory that wild birds make the BEST dogs,well that bucket has a hole in it !! Oh & as to how many of the birds at Wye Island are wild maybe not many but there are a few still here in the East belive it or not,you just have to hunt for them not trip over em.

[ezzy333]

My pro breaks,runs,& conditions his dogs in Ohio & he wins very very often!! Fact is he just won the GSPCA NFC went to Wye Island Maryland & won the AA Phez Ch.for the 3rd yr in a row plus had RU & won the Derby & another dog he trains went 2nd in the Biggest Amt stake ever ran there.Not bad for an Ohio man huh that has NO BIRDS.

I have lived in Ohio. Born and raised. ND is a thousand times better. How many wild birds did those dogs point? Maryland pheasants? I bet those are some wild birds.

If only you would ask and find out the facts before writing a wonderful piece of fiction. I have a challenge for you, and will bet most anything you can't do it even i you can fill your bag, live in N.Dakota, and enjoy eating everything you hunt, as do most people. Lets see you post without using the word I in it. If you can do it for a month it would be amazing. Some of the things you post I agree with but when its all said and done you undo it all with the fiction you have to add to it. How do you know how I hunt, what I hunt, why I hunt, and where I hunt when you don't know a thing about any of it. You just merrily keep posting how great I am, how much I shoot, where I hunt, and then start talking about a whole bunch of other stuff you don't know anything about.

ONE MONTH WITHOUT USING THE WORD 'I'. If you are half the man you think you are you probably can do it. If you are twice the man you have made most of us think you are there isn't a chance it will happen.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

Just for the record Maryland had a very decent population of Phez before the last big building craze (20 yrs ago)....and in case you don't realize they were as wild as the phez in South or North Dakota. We also had more quail then you could shake a stick at and coveys can still be found if your dedicated and willing to put in the time and miles to find them.


On another note how do you in your words "have to go clean MY 13 geese" are you a poacher....thats well over a limit and well over a possession limit.

[Birddogz]

Just for the record Maryland had a very decent population of Phez before the last big building craze (20 yrs ago)....and in case you don't realize they were as wild as the phez in South or North Dakota. We also had more quail then you could shake a stick at and coveys can still be found if your dedicated and willing to put in the time and miles to find them.


On another note how do you in your words "have to go clean MY 13 geese" are you a poacher....thats well over a limit and well over a possession limit.

Those birds in trials are not wild in Maryland. Especially the roosters.


No, you are actually way off AGAIN! I am allowed 20 white geese a day, and no possession limit. I shot 1 speck, 2 Canadas, and 10 snows. I could have shot MANY, MANY more. Do you actually read the ND hunting regs? :roll:

[Birddogz]

My pro breaks,runs,& conditions his dogs in Ohio & he wins very very often!! Fact is he just won the GSPCA NFC went to Wye Island Maryland & won the AA Phez Ch.for the 3rd yr in a row plus had RU & won the Derby & another dog he trains went 2nd in the Biggest Amt stake ever ran there.Not bad for an Ohio man huh that has NO BIRDS.

I have lived in Ohio. Born and raised. ND is a thousand times better. How many wild birds did those dogs point? Maryland pheasants? I bet those are some wild birds.

If only you would ask and find out the facts before writing a wonderful piece of fiction. I have a challenge for you, and will bet most anything you can't do it even i you can fill your bag, live in N.Dakota, and enjoy eating everything you hunt, as do most people. Lets see you post without using the word I in it. If you can do it for a month it would be amazing. Some of the things you post I agree with but when its all said and done you undo it all with the fiction you have to add to it. How do you know how I hunt, what I hunt, why I hunt, and where I hunt when you don't know a thing about any of it. You just merrily keep posting how great I am, how much I shoot, where I hunt, and then start talking about a whole bunch of other stuff you don't know anything about.

ONE MONTH WITHOUT USING THE WORD 'I'. If you are half the man you think you are you probably can do it. If you are twice the man you have made most of us think you are there isn't a chance it will happen.

Ezzy

Ezzy are you a male or female? I am curious. OOOOOOPPPPPS, I couldn't do it.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Howie I understand what you are saying Grouse are a different critter & if you hunt a dog on Phez that point as far off as they have to on Grouse you won't have many productive points because the Phez will be gone.I have hunted a few grouse not so much in the last 10 yrs as pop has been way down & I no longer have private property to hunt.I think a trial dog has an easier time learning to handle wild birds of different species then MOST hunting dogs do planted birds.That being said the first GSP I had pointed all her birds eye to eye grouse,phez,quail, & when she pointed you could bet money there was a bird there.
Now as far as relocating in a trial I think any dog that relocates successfully deffinately would be considered for a placement.I'm not a judge so some that are might give a better answer but in my mind any dog that can relocate & point the birds with out breaking or flushing them should be held with high regards.

[tommyboy72]

Out of curiousity if there is no need to get a trial dog on wild birds to make really good trial dogs then why do so many professional trialers go north to North Dakota and South Dakota for summer training camps? You can find vast expanses of land to run dogs on in Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana where summer temps. aren't too high yet the professionals keep going back to the same 2 states, North and South Dakota. Might it be because of the bird populations? If it is a proven fact there is no need to run a dog on wild birds to make a truely good bird dog then why do professional trainers who make their money trialing and training dogs for people who have more money than I will earn in a lifetime put out the added expense, time, and effort? They could just as easily stay in their respective home states for the summer and spend more time with their families, save money, and continue to charge the same amount of money as a monthly training and boarding fee. Maybe there is a reason professional trainers and trialers think their client dogs need exposure to wild birds. Just a thought.

[birddog1968]

Wild birds are only one reason Pro's go to the upper midwest, temperatures have alot to do with it. You just cannot train in 100 degree weather in the south.

Nope I don't read the ND regs cause I am not there and haven't been there in 2 years.....I admit i assumed dark geese.

[tommyboy72]

If there are so many wild birds in Maryland then why are there such low bag and possession limits on quail and pheasant per day?

6 quail per day 12 in possession and 1 rooster pheasant per day and 2 in possession

The only place open to quail hunting in Maryland according to the state website is:

Private lands east of I-83 from PA south to I-695 to I-95 south to VA

[tommyboy72]

Birddog some of the trialers and trainers I am speaking of do not live in the south or west or even the southern midwest. Some of them live in the northeast, northwest, west coast and central east coast regions. Admittedly temps. may have something to do with it but I think wild birds are a big reason as well.

[birddog1968]

If there are so many wild birds in Maryland then why are there such low bag and possession limits on quail and pheasant per day?

6 quail per day 12 in possession and 1 rooster pheasant per day and 2 in possession

The only place open to quail hunting in Maryland according to the state website is:

Private lands east of I-83 from PA south to I-695 to I-95 south to VA

where did i ever say there were "So many"???? They have been decimated by development and farming practices.

And that "only Place" is THE only place there were any quail in Maryland, they did not ever exist in the mountains of Maryland.
Maryland is a small state and they existed in the eastern half of the state. That private land clause is new to me, need to go look that
up....But won't matter in my case cause I don't shoot them just work dogs on them from time to time. I'm glad DNR finally closed public
land, slob hunters rule the day here now and protection is a good thing....Our DNR has been invloved in trap and transplant on state lands
and I see they have taken it to the next level.


There was a reason dogs like Hooks Bounty Hunter, Riggins White Knight, and many of Additions Go Boy's siblings and siblings to Nell's Rambling on called maryland home....back prior to the middle 80's Maryland was filthy with quail. Phez only lived in certain areas of central Maryland because of acid soil condtions and lack of lime in the soil to support reproduction.

[Birddogz]

Out of curiousity if there is no need to get a trial dog on wild birds to make really good trial dogs then why do so many professional trialers go north to North Dakota and South Dakota for summer training camps? You can find vast expanses of land to run dogs on in Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana where summer temps. aren't too high yet the professionals keep going back to the same 2 states, North and South Dakota. Might it be because of the bird populations? If it is a proven fact there is no need to run a dog on wild birds to make a truely good bird dog then why do professional trainers who make their money trialing and training dogs for people who have more money than I will earn in a lifetime put out the added expense, time, and effort? They could just as easily stay in their respective home states for the summer and spend more time with their families, save money, and continue to charge the same amount of money as a monthly training and boarding fee. Maybe there is a reason professional trainers and trialers think their client dogs need exposure to wild birds. Just a thought.

Oh my God, a person with some common sense. You probably don't live in the East, hunt wild birds, have the audacity to actually EAT what you shoot, and don't FT. You will be disdained for sure!

[Wenaha]

Out of curiousity if there is no need to get a trial dog on wild birds to make really good trial dogs then why do so many professional trialers go north to North Dakota and South Dakota for summer training camps? You can find vast expanses of land to run dogs on in Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana where summer temps. aren't too high yet the professionals keep going back to the same 2 states, North and South Dakota. Might it be because of the bird populations? If it is a proven fact there is no need to run a dog on wild birds to make a truely good bird dog then why do professional trainers who make their money trialing and training dogs for people who have more money than I will earn in a lifetime put out the added expense, time, and effort? They could just as easily stay in their respective home states for the summer and spend more time with their families, save money, and continue to charge the same amount of money as a monthly training and boarding fee. Maybe there is a reason professional trainers and trialers think their client dogs need exposure to wild birds. Just a thought.

I spent 2 months training my dogs in Eastern Montana this Summer. I live on the West Coast - so why drive so far? BIRDS. Wild birds. I could walk or horseback my dogs into wild birds everyday. I could checkcord my young dogs on wild birds - 5 to 10 birds in 45 minutes. I know of no other place, outside of SD, ND, MT, AB, or SK, that you can get so much done in so short a time. Many of my professional and amateur trainer friends do the same.

[Birddogz]

Out of curiousity if there is no need to get a trial dog on wild birds to make really good trial dogs then why do so many professional trialers go north to North Dakota and South Dakota for summer training camps? You can find vast expanses of land to run dogs on in Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana where summer temps. aren't too high yet the professionals keep going back to the same 2 states, North and South Dakota. Might it be because of the bird populations? If it is a proven fact there is no need to run a dog on wild birds to make a truely good bird dog then why do professional trainers who make their money trialing and training dogs for people who have more money than I will earn in a lifetime put out the added expense, time, and effort? They could just as easily stay in their respective home states for the summer and spend more time with their families, save money, and continue to charge the same amount of money as a monthly training and boarding fee. Maybe there is a reason professional trainers and trialers think their client dogs need exposure to wild birds. Just a thought.

I spent 2 months training my dogs in Eastern Montana this Summer. I live on the West Coast - so why drive so far? BIRDS. Wild birds. I could walk or horseback my dogs into wild birds everyday. I could checkcord my young dogs on wild birds - 5 to 10 birds in 45 minutes. I know of no other place, outside of SD, ND, MT, AB, or SK, that you can get so much done in so short a time. Many of my professional and amateur trainer friends do the same.

Another common sense person, this is getting really scary! I knew there were a few left.

[birddogger]

Oh my God, a person with some common sense. You probably don't live in the East, hunt wild birds, have the audacity to actually EAT what you shoot, and don't FT. You will be disdained for sure!

Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen anybody saying they don't eat what they shoot. I have never seen anybody being disdained for not trialing either, in fact, I am willing to bet that the vast majority of members on here are not trialers. I don't trial [other than NSTRA from time to time] but it seems to me that you are the one who disdains anyone who does more trialing than hunting and anybody else who disagrees with you.

I also agree with Ted, that it does not necessarily take wild birds to make a good bird dog. I love hunting and working dogs on wild birds, but IMO, it is not a must to have a good bird dog. There are exceptions, as gblitz pointed out, such as wild grouse. In fact, I would argue that a dog has to be more disciplined on pen raised birds and that dog will be able to trial or hunt wild birds either one.

The other thing is, I remember a time when bringing game home was important if we wanted some decent meat for supper but fortunately that is no longer the case. I eat what I shoot and if you want the majority of your meals to be wild game, that's fine but I would rather have cow, pig, chicken, etc. and have the wild game as something different from time to time. The bottom line is, let the other person enjoy whatever venue it is that they choose to participate in. I have said it before and will say it again, we already have plenty of enemies who would like nothing more than to ban it all.

[Wenaha]

...I also agree with Ted, that it does not necessarily take wild birds to make a good bird dog. I love hunting and working dogs on wild birds, but IMO, it is not a must to have a good bird dog. There are exceptions, as gblitz pointed out, such as wild grouse. In fact, I would argue that a dog has to be more disciplined on pen raised birds and that dog will be able to trial or hunt wild birds either one...

Perhaps we do our hunting in different species in different places, but I disagree with this premise. You can train a dog to handle, point birds with manners, etc. But you cannot train a dog into being a 'good bird dog' - he needs to have exposure to wild birds if he is to learn to hunt and handle wild birds, and learning needs to be on the species - and in the terrain - that the dog will be expected to hunt.

Or perhaps we disagree on what a good bird dog is...

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

No one said the western states didn't have more birds that's a known fact,I have lived in Ohio all my life & untill we had the blizzards of 77 & 78 we had plenty of bobwhite quail & our limit was still only 6 a day.We had phez a plenty up into the 60's. Now it's all about deer & turkey.All you guys bragging about all your wild birds can wake up one day when it's all gone & don't think it can't happen.I'm not going to pick up & move out there at my age when I'm not real healthy anyway just because of more birds.All my family & friends are here & it's Too late to start over.There is nothing wrong with hunting or shooting birds but as you age & mature most of you will find it's not that important anymore.
I have been like all of you was all about killikng my limit,meat dogs,& bragging don't worry you will all grow up one day!!

Oh & Birddogz how do you know none of the Phez at Wye Island were wild,I wish I was as smart as you because I can't say fro sure one way or the other.
For some of you that have not read all of BD post no matter what the thread is about if he posts it ALWAYS ends up about WILD PHEASANTS & no dogs from the east that have not hunted them in ND in 3 ft of snow is any good!!

[Birddogz]

Oh my God, a person with some common sense. You probably don't live in the East, hunt wild birds, have the audacity to actually EAT what you shoot, and don't FT. You will be disdained for sure!

I also agree with Ted, that it does not necessarily take wild birds to make a good bird dog. I love hunting and working dogs on wild birds, but IMO, it is not a must to have a good bird dog. There are exceptions, as gblitz pointed out, such as wild grouse. In fact, I would argue that a dog has to be more disciplined on pen raised birds and that dog will be able to trial or hunt wild birds either one.

The other thing is, I remember a time when bringing game home was important if we wanted some decent meat for supper but fortunately that is no longer the case. I eat what I shoot and if you want the majority of your meals to be wild game, that's fine but I would rather have cow, pig, chicken, etc. and have the wild game as something different from time to time. The bottom line is, let the other person enjoy whatever venue it is that they choose to participate in. I have said it before and will say it again, we already have plenty of enemies who would like nothing more than to ban it all.

You can't be serious. Harder to have your dogs handle released birds? This is the case if you are worried about your dog catching the bird. Wild grouse, pheasant, quail, Huns, etc. are nothing like their tame relatives.

It seems that people can't handle the reality that the best place to own a bird dog is where there are lots of wild birds. They need to grow up and face the facts. It doesn't make them bad people, or mean they don't like to hunt. It means they aren't willing to move to an area that has lots of birds. Whether it be financial, family oriented, etc. it is alright, bird hunting isn't their main priority in life. There are few people who make bird hunting their main objective in their life. Those who are serious about it, either move to an area where there are lots of birds or they take numerous trips out to those areas. This isn't a rub, it is the truth. Life is about priorities. They are as individual as people are. This seems very obvious to me.

[birddogger]

...I also agree with Ted, that it does not necessarily take wild birds to make a good bird dog. I love hunting and working dogs on wild birds, but IMO, it is not a must to have a good bird dog. There are exceptions, as gblitz pointed out, such as wild grouse. In fact, I would argue that a dog has to be more disciplined on pen raised birds and that dog will be able to trial or hunt wild birds either one...

Perhaps we do our hunting in different species in different places, but I disagree with this premise. You can train a dog to handle, point birds with manners, etc. But you cannot train a dog into being a 'good bird dog' - he needs to have exposure to wild birds if he is to learn to hunt and handle wild birds, and learning needs to be on the species - and in the terrain - that the dog will be expected to hunt.

Or perhaps we disagree on what a good bird dog is...

If it takes hunting all species in all terrain and all parts of the country, then I can agree. I have just never been able to do that, and yes, we may just disagree on what a good bird dog is.

Charlie

[Birddogz]

No one said the western states didn't have more birds that's a known fact,I have lived in Ohio all my life & untill we had the blizzards of 77 & 78 we had plenty of bobwhite quail & our limit was still only 6 a day.We had phez a plenty up into the 60's. Now it's all about deer & turkey.All you guys bragging about all your wild birds can wake up one day when it's all gone & don't think it can't happen.I'm not going to pick up & move out there at my age when I'm not real healthy anyway just because of more birds.All my family & friends are here & it's Too late to start over.There is nothing wrong with hunting or shooting birds but as you age & mature most of you will find it's not that important anymore.
I have been like all of you was all about killikng my limit,meat dogs,& bragging don't worry you will all grow up one day!!

Oh & Birddogz how do you know none of the Phez at Wye Island were wild,I wish I was as smart as you because I can't say fro sure one way or the other.
For some of you that have not read all of BD post no matter what the thread is about if he posts it ALWAYS ends up about WILD PHEASANTS & no dogs from the east that have not hunted them in ND in 3 ft of snow is any good!!

Exactly, your priorities are not putting bird hunting first. That is fine. Why does it make you angry when that is pointed out? I would move anywhere to hunt birds. In fact I have done so. The fact that you don't want to leave family and friends is fine, they are more important to you now.

[Birddogz]

No one said the western states didn't have more birds that's a known fact,I have lived in Ohio all my life & untill we had the blizzards of 77 & 78 we had plenty of bobwhite quail & our limit was still only 6 a day.We had phez a plenty up into the 60's. Now it's all about deer & turkey.All you guys bragging about all your wild birds can wake up one day when it's all gone & don't think it can't happen.I'm not going to pick up & move out there at my age when I'm not real healthy anyway just because of more birds.All my family & friends are here & it's Too late to start over.There is nothing wrong with hunting or shooting birds but as you age & mature most of you will find it's not that important anymore.
I have been like all of you was all about killikng my limit,meat dogs,& bragging don't worry you will all grow up one day!!

Oh & Birddogz how do you know none of the Phez at Wye Island were wild,I wish I was as smart as you because I can't say fro sure one way or the other.
For some of you that have not read all of BD post no matter what the thread is about if he posts it ALWAYS ends up about WILD PHEASANTS & no dogs from the east that have not hunted them in ND in 3 ft of snow is any good!!

Vonz, come on out and hunt for a week. I have guys from Ohio hunt out here all the time.

By the way, it isn't ONLY wild pheasants. It is WILD BIRDS! Huns, Sharpies, Phez, Ruffed grouse, quail, etc. I don't care what it is, if it is hatched in the wild under wild conditions, it is a more worthy opponent.

[birddogger]

You can't be serious

Yep, I am serious.

Charlie

[Elkhunter]

Birddogz, you are entertaining for sure!

[Birddogz]

Birddogz, you are entertaining for sure!

I try!

[birddog1968]

it is always entertaining to watch a clown....

Dog A works a dozen birds hunter manages to bag 3 over solid points

Dog B works a dozen birds hunter cap pistols/photographs 8 or 10 over solid points

Who's dog has worked birds more successfully......No answer needed, I know the answer

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

What makes you think anything you say makes me mad in fact just the opposite is true I think it's funny.I have said this before & will say it again.Just because a dog can find birds where you don't even need a dog to find birds doesn't make it a good dog.It takes a GOOD dog to find birds where there aren't many,might take a some birds for a dog to learn how to handle them but after that give me a dog that will find the one bird there is in a hundred acre field not a hundred birds in a 1 acre field!! Even if it takes ALL DAY!!

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Howie the BEST Grouse dog I ever saw & hunted over belonged to a friend of a friend.He was a cross breed between a Pointer & Brittany,the first 6 or 7 yrs of his life that's all he was hunted on.The first 3 yrs of his life I don't think they ever shot a bird over him but after that he outbirded all the other dogs down with him on Grouse.He didn't only use his nose to find birds but all his scenses including his nose,eyes,feet,& experience.When I say his feet I don't mean running or stalking but mean I saw him numerous times come up to a dead tree top or brush pile or busch & stomp his ft to see if anything moved.I saw him point birds from a distance aswell as on top of them,he just knew how close he could get to each bird.He looked like a pointer in build but the patches on him were a deep orange like a Britt.
He wasn't the best Phez dog by any means his tactics just weren't as efficient on them but he did get a few pointed now & then.

Oh Howie your not the only one that has slowed down ALOT compared to how I use to be I'm almost at a complete stop!! Gets depressing at times,I've always been an outdoors person but just CAN'T do the things I use to do.I give it my best shot because I'm not happy setting in the house but my best shot finds me miles away from my truck at times wondering if I will make it back??

[Greg Jennings]

I have already posted a general warning in this thread. I am ashamed of the behavior of some supposedly adult members.

Get back to something positive and worthwhile. Do it now.

The very next person, and I don't care if it my mother, that posts argumentative BS in this thread or any offshoot of this thread is going to sit down and ride some pine for a couple of weeks.

The very next person that posts taunting a moderator, be it in this thread or any other, will get a permanent sit down.

I hope that is clear enough for the couple of folks in this thread that appear to be training in pointless argument as an Olympic sport.

[Birddogz]

it is always entertaining to watch a clown....

Dog A works a dozen birds hunter manages to bag 3 over solid points

Dog B works a dozen birds hunter cap pistols/photographs 8 or 10 over solid points

Who's dog has worked birds more successfully......No answer needed, I know the answer

That is for the off season, not in season. I shoot a cap gun all the time when the season isn't in, then I step up to a real gun when the season is comes in. I will say this, my dogs start to look at me like "Hey, get a better weapon you idiot!"

Now, here is the real question....Dog A runs in ND for 2 hours and has 25 solid points on wild birds.

Dog B runs for 2 hours in Ohio, and has one point on a wild bird.

Which dog learns faster, and becomes the better dog? No answer needed, I know the answer.

[Grange]

You can't be serious. Harder to have your dogs handle released birds? This is the case if you are worried about your dog catching the bird. Wild grouse, pheasant, quail, Huns, etc. are nothing like their tame relatives.

It depends on what a person is talking about when he or she says harder to handle. A dog is generally not going to be able to pressure a wild bird like it can with a pen raise bird. So a dog has to learn how much pressure a bird can take. I like using wild birds to train a dog to hunt and learn what kind of pressure a bird will take. On the other hand it is harder for a dog to have good manners on lowly pen raised birds. I love poor flying pen raised birds when training STWS. Having a bird refuse to fly away or worse run toward the dog puts a lot of pressure on a dog. Generally wild birds get the heck out of the area and will not put that much pressure on a dog whereas some pen raised bird will fly up 10 feet and ten settle down right in front of the dog. Even when some pen raised birds do try to get out of the area they can't fly far and the dog knows it can catch the bird.

[birddog1968]

My point was shooting the birds is not the measure of the dog...having the dog handle way more birds than I can legally take in season or out of season is much better measure than taking a limit of 2 or 3 birds. What ohio has to do with it is beyond me.

[myerstenn]

I have already posted a general warning in this thread. I am ashamed of the behavior of some supposedly adult members.

Get back to something positive and worthwhile. Do it now.

The very next person, and I don't care if it my mother, that posts argumentative BS in this thread or any offshoot of this thread is going to sit down and ride some pine for a couple of weeks.

The very next person that posts taunting a moderator, be it in this thread or any other, will get a permanent sit down.

I hope that is clear enough for the couple of folks in this thread that appear to be training in pointless argument as an Olympic sport.

The man from North Dakota wearing me out what a bigot!!!!

[Birddogz]

My point was shooting the birds is not the measure of the dog...having the dog handle way more birds than I can legally take in season or out of season is much better measure than taking a limit of 2 or 3 birds.

I see what you are saying, and I agree that the more birds handled well, the better. The full game bag is a result of having a dog handle birds well. I walk many many miles in August and early September getting my dogs in shape, and knocking the rust off. The dog needs birds shot over it so that it can learn how to retrieve and track cripples, mark cripples, etc. All of that takes experience as well.

Also, it generally isn't 3 birds. A typical day consists of 3-4 guys so that is 9-12 pheasants (that isn't counting the numerous hen encounters) and 24 ducks and 12 dark geese. 60-80 white geese. I have never limited out on all of those in one day with 4 guys, but my dogs often retrieve 25-30 birds per day. In fact, this year the ducks have been just incredible.

[Birddogz]

I have already posted a general warning in this thread. I am ashamed of the behavior of some supposedly adult members.

Get back to something positive and worthwhile. Do it now.

The very next person, and I don't care if it my mother, that posts argumentative BS in this thread or any offshoot of this thread is going to sit down and ride some pine for a couple of weeks.

The very next person that posts taunting a moderator, be it in this thread or any other, will get a permanent sit down.

I hope that is clear enough for the couple of folks in this thread that appear to be training in pointless argument as an Olympic sport.

The man from North Dakota wearing me out what a bigot!!!!

Good one! I have been called many things, but never a bigot. I guess there is a first time for everything! What I find so funny is that I get grief for stating things that are considered common knowledge amongst the guys I hunt with. It is like the Twilight zone.

[jasonw99]

My pro breaks,runs,& conditions his dogs in Ohio & he wins very very often!! Fact is he just won the GSPCA NFC went to Wye Island Maryland & won the AA Phez Ch.for the 3rd yr in a row plus had RU & won the Derby & another dog he trains went 2nd in the Biggest Amt stake ever ran there.Not bad for an Ohio man huh that has NO BIRDS.

they don't withhold placements in the gspca. take it how u want

lack of ethics in Maryland

how many shooting dogs he get around without taking birds out?

sorry not drinking the kool-ade yet

[birddog1968]

Lack of hunting ethics is a nationwide problem....Ive seen it in every state Ive traveled to.

[ACooper]

Lack of hunting ethics is a nationwide problem....Ive seen it in every state Ive traveled to.

Slob hunters are everywhere and are a bad reflection on all of us.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Jason what the heck you talking about? I'll talk it over with Dan next time I see him.

Chris has also won the NGSPA Nats twice in what the last 5 yrs & they do with hold placements.Take that how you want it!!
Next talk I have with Chris I'll tell him he's slipping up because he didn't make a CLEAN SWEEP this yr.

[JKP]

I just stated facts that my pro does not go & he beats all the pros that do on a regular bases,so your theory that wild birds make the BEST dogs,well that bucket has a hole in it !!

And are these dogs running on wild birds in these trials?? I know here in the east, there are no wild bird trials outside of the cover dogs. All the trials, say, at Assunpink are on liberated birds in hedgerows....may as well be a bird pen. That said, dogs show great control, manners, etc....but its not hard to run a dog down a hedgerow so it can point pen birds.

Are there any FT run on wild phez?? (just as an aside).

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

If you think all trials are run down fence rows you haven't been to many trials but yes they are pen birds & no wild Phez trials I'm aware of but there are supposed to be wild phez at Wye Island also.
If you think it's so easy show us up sometime!!

[ezzy333]

I just stated facts that my pro does not go & he beats all the pros that do on a regular bases,so your theory that wild birds make the BEST dogs,well that bucket has a hole in it !!

And are these dogs running on wild birds in these trials?? I know here in the east, there are no wild bird trials outside of the cover dogs. All the trials, say, at Assunpink are on liberated birds in hedgerows....may as well be a bird pen. That said, dogs show great control, manners, etc....but its not hard to run a dog down a hedgerow so it can point pen birds.

Are there any FT run on wild phez?? (just as an aside).

I believe you know not of what you speak. It takes a good well trained dog to be good at either trialing or in the field. And most good dogs can hunt any kind of bird and many of those same dogs can be successful at trialing too. The thing that makes a bird dog good on any certain spiece is some experience to learn where to find them and how to handle them. And this happens quite quickly if you give them the chance to learn

Ezzy

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

We were talking the Nat Phez CH not hunting so sounds like some one thought he was screwed in some way when he starts talking about ethics at a trial!!

[JKP]

If you think all trials are run down fence rows you haven't been to many trials but yes they are pen birds & no wild Phez trials I'm aware of but there are supposed to be wild phez at Wye Island also.
If you think it's so easy show us up sometime!!

I would if I had the money...but to really be competitive its not just about the dog...it takes deep pockets. I have been to trials at Assunpink and Medford and was pretty impressed with quite a number of dogs...but its pretty artificial...90% of the finds I saw were in the hedgerows on liberated birds...lots of singles...can't compare that to wild bird hunting...the retrieve call backs are pretty lame.

The thing that makes a bird dog good on any certain spiece is some experience to learn where to find them and how to handle them. And this happens quite quickly if you give them the chance to learn

I agree...but there are dogs that don't impress too....as long as we're breeding dogs that are proven to excel under real conditions, I'm all for the games. As far as the "spike" tails and head crank, that's for "the beauty queens" among us.....

[tommyboy72]

I would like to interject a response here. As most of you know I bred and whelped a litter last year and now jcbuttry8 of this website is trialing a pup out of that litter and has several placements (3rds and 4ths) in walking and horseback puppy trials on the east coast in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Deleware, Connecticut etc. against much older dogs ranging from a year to a year and a half. He and I have been talking about me sending the pup I kept for myself up to him to trial this coming spring. Joe has told me that the judges as well as fellow competitors specifically instructed him that the dogs need to run treelines and hedgerows because that is where the birds are. Before you start saying these guys don't know what they are doing, Joe joined the Medford Setter Club and these are all his fellow club members as well. I run in really wide open country and was told I need to find a way to run my pup along treelines or hedgerows in order to get her some practice for the trial season before I send her up. I was told the pup needs to take off like a rocket and make about 4 or 500 yard cast straight down the hedgerows or treelines and not stray away from these into the adjacent field. If I am wasting my time on running my 7 month old pup on wild quail and pheasant for a seaso, ecollar conditioning her, whistle training her, training her to respond to hand signals, and conditioning her to gunfire I sure would like to know because if I need to run her along treelines I am a$$ out of luck, we have no trees here.

[birddog1968]

You have to understand the geography here Tommy Farmland in the east is nothing more that smallish fields boardered by treelines , hedgerows....Quail here in the east are/were found almost always on edge habitat. While I can't believe they would fault a dog for running some fields birds wild or otherwise were always found in edge habitat and that means treelines, hedgerows and the cover that boarders them. Fields will most likely be harvested so running open harvested bean fields is unproductive area.

Get on Google earth and look around and you will begin to understand the lay of the land. Search places that he will be running or you can take a look at Wye Island to get an idea. hunting edges woodlines and hedgerows may seem artifical to people from big block crp or natural habitat out west but edge habitat was king in the quail days in the east.

Here's an image of typical eastern farmland in this case bordered by a river, wye island, md.


Another area for an idea

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Tommy again you are talking 2 different things as you know the East & West are different terrains.Here in the East the wild birds we use to have & the few still left are edge birds.If the grounds have tree lines that's an edge so where the birds will be planted but not ALL grounds are treelines but the edge could be two fields of different cover creating an edge.Yes trial dogs do run more of straight lines not quartering & yes they need to breakaway like their tail is on fire but like I have tried to explain trials are a game & a dog can do both & learn the differnce.Hunting on foot & trialing on HB is different in some ways & takes a dog finding birds with style & speed in trials to place consistently.Remember your not hunting all day you only have a half hr to an hr to do it.
Good Luck if you decide to try it & you just may find it & the people more to your liking then you think.

[ezzy333]

I would like to interject a response here. As most of you know I bred and whelped a litter last year and now jcbuttry8 of this website is trialing a pup out of that litter and has several placements (3rds and 4ths) in walking and horseback puppy trials on the east coast in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Deleware, Connecticut etc. against much older dogs ranging from a year to a year and a half. He and I have been talking about me sending the pup I kept for myself up to him to trial this coming spring. Joe has told me that the judges as well as fellow competitors specifically instructed him that the dogs need to run treelines and hedgerows because that is where the birds are. Before you start saying these guys don't know what they are doing, Joe joined the Medford Setter Club and these are all his fellow club members as well. I run in really wide open country and was told I need to find a way to run my pup along treelines or hedgerows in order to get her some practice for the trial season before I send her up. I was told the pup needs to take off like a rocket and make about 4 or 500 yard cast straight down the hedgerows or treelines and not stray away from these into the adjacent field. If I am wasting my time on running my 7 month old pup on wild quail and pheasant for a seaso, ecollar conditioning her, whistle training her, training her to respond to hand signals, and conditioning her to gunfire I sure would like to know because if I need to run her along treelines I am a$$ out of luck, we have no trees here.

Good trial dogs are pretty much like good hunting dog as far as being somewhat independent and finding the objectives that should draw and hold birds. I understand about not having hedgerows but there are always other objectives that seem to hold birds year after year.I am curious about the above posts that said trials didn't look like hunting because the birds were in the hedge rows. In all the years I have hunted that is exactly the first place I would look. I do have trouble trying to correlate the 300 yard break away to anything to do with hunting though. I have always preferred the dog hunt its way to where it is going and not run full speed ahead just to get further away. Best way to explain hunting technique in a trial is line hunting compared to the old method of quartering that so many hunter thought was the best method. I kind of like the line method as it seems that where the most birds are found and not in the middle of a field that looks no different than the majority of the field. Just isn't anything visible that says it would draw birds and it sure doesn't give the overhead protection from the raptors that is becoming a serious problem.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

If you look at trials as a way to evaluate breeding stock then I believe you need that big run/breakaway.....least as far and pointers go. If the dogs didn't have a big forward race then you'd eventually produce dogs without any bigger run.

I think its easy to produce birdfinders but that performance end of it needs to be there too. Wouldn't wanna end up with bootlicking bird finders and loose any inclination to run and be independent.

Least thats my take.

[tommyboy72]

Vonz thanks for the welcome and while I live too far from any venues where I live in the Oklahoma panhandle and have neither the time nor the financial means to trial myself I do look forward to sending a pup to Joe this spring. He is looking at keeping her for about a year to run her in puppy trials and then break her and run her in some derbies before sending her back to me. I may someday run her here in Oklahoma in trials but for now Joe is going to run her on the east coast.

Because you metioned quartering hunting dogs I would also like to make it known that my dogs are not dogs that quarter 100 yards out in front like many hunting dogs. Mine are more like big running shooting dogs or horseback dogs. They run anywhere from 5-600 yards out front except the pup who runs a comfortable 3-400 yards out front but hey she is only 7 months old, they run straight lines and circle back to check in occasionally and I can just barely keep up with them on foot. Most of the time I end up hacking at them with the collar to keep them down to 500 yards or so. My older female comes from a trial kennel in Texas and is out of big running ABHA shooting dogs with trial placements and a champion sire while my male comes from a trial kennel in Lawton, Ok. where the breeder/owner/trainer switched over to AA horseback trials this year from running walking trials and NSTRA because of the run on his dogs. I have many trial friends and in no way look down on trialers. They honestly produce fantastic dogs. I just do not think that trialing is the only measure of a great bird dog. Neither is a full bag at the end of the day. There has to be a happy medium.

For instance yesterday was opening day of quail season here in Oklahoma. I had 2 adult dogs and my pup running. I got into 3 coveys one of about 40 birds which I did not take any of because they were too close to a set of corrals full of young calves but I did run the dogs on them 1 covey of bobs where I got a solid point from my male dog and about a 2 minute hold on point till I caught up with him and then a flush, shot and solid retrieve from my male dog. The third covey was a covey of blues where I got a wild flush, shot, down bird and then a blind dead bird find and retrieve by my male dog and then a solid point, shot, and retrieve from my female adult dog. Pretty successful day to me. Not a full game bag but 4 shots and 3 birds in the bag with different desireable traits being demonstrated by different dogs. I walked about 2.5-3 miles so no telling how far the dogs ran but they kept a consistent out front race at about 500 yards or so the entire time with a dunk in the stock tank to cool off and get a drink about halfway through. I actually caught the majority of it on video on a set of video recording sunglasses I purchased but due to the fact that I purchased a set of cheap Chinese made ones it corrupted the video files so I could not download them to the computer. I am going out again tomorrow and hope I can get them to work a little better this time. Not all hunters are just killers and some of us do still care about style and the dog demonstrating what they have been trained to do and looking good doing it. Not that I am implying that those who want to fill a gamebag don't care. I like to eat wild game as well and birds are what we have around here. We are a bit short in the deer and turkey department around here. Admittedly bird numbers are down here this year due to a full winter week last year of -30 to -40 degree temps. and 40 mph winds and on top of that a severe drought and a full month of temps. over 100 degrees ranging from 105-110 and no rain all summer. This year I will take a few birds here and there and still continue to run dogs whether I shoot any or not. Different strokes for different folks I guess. We all love dogs just for different reasons I guess.